Regi Posted April 14, 2013 #226 Share Posted April 14, 2013 the "penetration" torch, was it the one that was covered so it gave off a dimmer light that was possibly used during the night when the councler spotted a light???? Post #217 shows the dimmed flashlight...it was lantern style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted April 14, 2013 #227 Share Posted April 14, 2013 Post #217 shows the dimmed flashlight...it was lantern style. my sincere appologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 18, 2013 Author #228 Share Posted April 18, 2013 the "penetration" torch, was it the one that was covered so it gave off a dimmer light that was possibly used during the night when the councler spotted a light???? I'm not sure if it was or not... to show how much detail I remembered from the books I tried to read (they were not well written) I thought there was only one flashlight (torch)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted April 19, 2013 #229 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Taun, there was another flashlight. In the doc., the OSBI agent described a flashlight between Farmer's legs, and his comment was that it was there as though to be handy in case she needed it. I found that to be an odd remark coming from an investigator, and I don't know if that's what he actually thought as to the reason it was there. A poster who claimed to be Wilhite (on the yuku board) stated that objects were used for penetration. (That was the basis for her belief that authorities thought a female could be involved, and why she felt authorities leaned hard on her. Now, I've never seen that info. stated elsewhere, but I think a flashlight presented in the manner described by the agent could lend to such speculation, and it's also likely that the ME offered that finding to authorities. It sounds to me like there were two flashlights; the one on the ground at the discovery site which was brought by the perp to the scene, and the one described by the OSBI agent in that doc. when he was telling of attending the autopsy of Lori Farmer. Also, it's speculation that any object was used in a sexual way by the perp. The primary issue is that at the time- in the early stages of the investigation- the ME didn't believe that there was rape, but that there was sexual assault. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 19, 2013 Author #230 Share Posted April 19, 2013 regi... I just had an odd thought (not that most of my thoughts aren't odd...) What if the second flashlight - the one found between Lori's legs, was her flashlight and she simply had placed it inside her sleeping bag incase she needed it at night... Then during the assault it rolled around to end up there?... Could that be what the ME was referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted April 19, 2013 #231 Share Posted April 19, 2013 regi... I just had an odd thought (not that most of my thoughts aren't odd...) What if the second flashlight - the one found between Lori's legs, was her flashlight and she simply had placed it inside her sleeping bag incase she needed it at night... Then during the assault it rolled around to end up there?... Re: your thoughts...no, not most are odd, but that's another matter. Now seriously, I think it was very likely Farmer's own flashlight, but I can't imagine the scenario you suggested could be how the flashlight came to be where it was. I think it's possible that it was always there, and that she was never sexually assaulted. You know, it's been a long time since we've discussed this case, and I admit that my memory fails me, but I recall that the OSBI agent said it was obvious to him that Farmer was sexually assaulted when he saw the way her panties were arranged. Now, I certainly wouldn't leap to such a conclusion by that circumstance alone, but....that's what he said. Also, I don't recall that he mentioned any bindings, and I would think he would have. Surely, there's info. in one or both of those books re: that aspect, sooooo, I need you to consult those books, and report back to me. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 19, 2013 Author #232 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Re: your thoughts...no, not most are odd, but that's another matter. Now seriously, I think it was very likely Farmer's own flashlight, but I can't imagine the scenario you suggested could be how the flashlight came to be where it was. I think it's possible that it was always there, and that she was never sexually assaulted. You know, it's been a long time since we've discussed this case, and I admit that my memory fails me, but I recall that the OSBI agent said it was obvious to him that Farmer was sexually assaulted when he saw the way her panties were arranged. Now, I certainly wouldn't leap to such a conclusion by that circumstance alone, but....that's what he said. Also, I don't recall that he mentioned any bindings, and I would think he would have. Surely, there's info. in one or both of those books re: that aspect, sooooo, I need you to consult those books, and report back to me. ) I'll look but mostly the books dealt with the trial, particularly Tent #8... and not so much with the details of the crime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted April 20, 2013 #233 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I'll look but mostly the books dealt with the trial, particularly Tent #8... and not so much with the details of the crime... Oh, thanks, Taun, but don't go to any trouble! I remember that about Tent #8, and I don't think it'd be worth the aggravation! I'm curious about what that other book might reveal...specifically re: any sort of bindings. (Since they wrote a book about the crime, I would think that the OSBI agents would reveal in detail what they actually witnessed at the scene.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 22, 2013 Author #234 Share Posted April 22, 2013 (edited) I browsed through the book (Someone Cry For the Children) and it dealt a lot more with the evidence than TN8 did... TN8 was more a character study of the trial - and how the author felt that Hart was railroaded by the FBI and OSBI... SCFTC was pretty much the opposite.. showing how Hart received a prejudiced jury (prejudiced in favor not against), and how the trial was covered by a sympathetic - highly sensationalistic press... After reading TN8 I felt that hart was probably involved in crimes in the area at the same time - but if directly involved int he murders was not alone... After SCFTC I felt that, it was very possible that hart did it by himself... Honestly I don't know.. My gut feeling right now is that the murders were committed by a Native American... While the defenses specialists claimed the hair found on the girls was not an exact match of Hart's... They never addressed that it was very similar... Also, the defense made a case of Hart's vasectomy and that he could not have left sperm in or on the girls... Yet at Harts autopsy it was revealed that his vasectomy had failed (rather common back then actually)... As for the wedding photo's being planted by the Sheriff..There was documentation on file that showed Hart had signed for possession of the photo's prior to the murders (I don't remember exactly when)... And it still makes no sense to me that the Sheriff would hold onto a very innocuous random photo by an already captured convict, just to plant on him later - in case.... Makes no sense... Hart was known to either have a fetish for women's glasses - or was unable to buy his own and so stole glasses of similar prescriptions whenever he could find them... (seeing as how the camp was only 2 miles from the cave where he was apparently hanging out - it makes sense that he would take women's glasses).... Hart was a Cherokee of the 'old school' meaning the rituals and beliefs were real to him - at the cave they found the remains of ceremonial fires set up in the tribal way, and used cigarettes with the filters broken off - this was/is very common among Cherokee's when ever they are performing their 'magic' or cleansing themselves... They always break off the filters... Also found in the cave of course were the glasses that had been stolen on the night of the murders as well as the wedding photo... So in my mind it is pretty clear that Hart was there int he Girl Scout Camp that night and - at the very least- committed robbery... The fact that there was (apparently) only one flashlight used by the murderer(s) on that very dark night, indicates to me that there was probably only one perp... Granted they could have taken other lights away - but only one light was reported being seen... The flashlight in Lori Farmers sleeping bag was hers - the book makes no special claims about it being used in a bad way upon the child - so I think the second light is a 'red herring'... If Hart acted alone - here is how I see it happening... After the main rain storm passed, he began making his way into the camp grounds probably making entry in the general vicinity of camp Cherokee or Comanche -as a dim moving light was spotted in those areas... It was dark and in the woods which meant visibility was next to nothing, it was either still raining slightly or had just finished - so the ground was slippery and tracks would be easy to leave... By these factors Hart would have to be moving relatively slowly... factors in his favor would be everyone was inside, the water dripping from the leaves would help to mask any noise and he was very familiar with the grounds, plus his many years of hunting skills would help him to move relatively silently... Sometime after midnight, He arrives at Camp Kiowa... He approached tent #6 (?) lifted a flap and shined his light inside - which seems rather risky for him actually... For whatever reason he left the tent and went to #7 (8)... Upon entering, Lori's cot was nearest the door, he gives her a single strike to the head - killing her instantly, moving to Michelle's cot (no more than a step or two away) he also strikes her either killing her or so severely hurting her she is effectively in a coma (evidence points to the first two dying in the tent)... Then he gets to Denise... Perhaps she was partially awake, perhaps he wanted to kill her later, he subdues her, binds her with the duct tape, then begins trying to clean up the crime scene... Perhaps he was thinking that if he smeared the blood around, he could erase any footprints he might have left (remember he was a hunter and he would have wanted to destroy his tracks)... Since the girls were already in their sleeping bags, it would have been a bit easier for him to carry them out, like sacks of grain...Taking them back the way he came in to get to the gate that led to his cave... Perhaps Denise began to fight him as much as she could, so he stops near the gate and rather than take them back to his cave finishes his vile acts there... The camp counselor coming down the path for her early morning shower interrupts him and causes him to flee leaving his flashlight, tape and rope behind... So there was (in this theory) no special significance to the spot the girls were found in except that it was here they became too much of a burden or bother to him... That is another reason I'm leaning toward a single perp... If the perp(s) were interrupted as I theorize above, two or three men running away would have been highly noticeable... 1 man could slip away much easier... From what I can gather from the book the girls were bound in a similar fashion to the two women that Hart had been convicted of raping and attempting to murder earlier had... A strip of duct tape across the mouth, another across the eyes, and finally one over the nose - effectively suffocating the victims... There was also a nylon rope found with the roll of duct tape, perhaps that was used to bind the sleeping bags together so they could be carried easier - the book does not say... Edited April 22, 2013 by Taun 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftcoastgal Posted April 23, 2013 #235 Share Posted April 23, 2013 (edited) ... as I said earlier here in Oklahoma it's been a topic of discussion for a long time... ... It's got mystery, Native American medicine men, supernatural claims (skin walkers), politics (AIM- got involved) ... largest manhunt in state history,... death curses (... tracking dogs cursed by medicine man ... within hours first one died, second inexplicably got loose ran in front of a truck on highway...) - ... chief suspect given a curse that if he was found not guilty he would die ...within three months of acquittal ... he died. ... through it all no justice for those three children... (edit to add - factor in racially charged jury - that may have acquitted him ...he was 'one of theirs ... a member of the tribe) What's not to find interesting about this case? Taun... wow...although the post and case is an oldie, your condensed mention of players/particulars above, instead of the usual 15-pages it takes to get all that information to the surface usually (& god bless 'em all the boards open for our collective pleasure!), but this has piqued my interest. Thanks for cutting to the chase on what lies ahead for anyone about to open to page one! ; - )) ... remembering 1977, the '70's in general... these were the earliest days of our seeing things like Milk Carton Kids, remember? along with the new awareness that children could no longer simply play on their streets or neighborhoods the same way any longer. To learn this 'later' rather than sooner, for Girl Scouts in particular here, will remain heartbreak & grief for all who were close to it. Yea, so thanks.. reeled me right in.. have some reading to do - ciao! Edited April 23, 2013 by Leftcoastgal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 24, 2013 Author #236 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Thanks "lefty"... Usually when I post (like right now) it's all stream of conciousness type drivel (a sure sign, is all the parenthetical comments like this one!)... but occasionally I am able to post rather concise, informative drivel.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted April 29, 2013 #237 Share Posted April 29, 2013 regi... I just had an odd thought (not that most of my thoughts aren't odd...) What if the second flashlight - the one found between Lori's legs, was her flashlight and she simply had placed it inside her sleeping bag incase she needed it at night... Then during the assault it rolled around to end up there?... Could that be what the ME was referring to? oooooh i like that, i used to do that when i was on camp, put my torch either inside my sleeping bag so that it would roll all the way to the bottom as i slept or under my pillow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regeneratia Posted April 29, 2013 #238 Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) It was Incredibly irresponsible of the counselors to ignore the girls report of some creepy man peeping his head in the tents and another being grabbed. I worked at a Girl Scout camp just following this, also located in the mid-west, as a counselor. Our security was for the farmer/neighbors to keep an extra eye out for suspicious activity and unknown cars or horses, to have the gates locked at night, while every girl there had a buddy that they moved around the camp with.The police made a nightly visit to the camp. Everyone working there were on alert for things that were out of the ordinary. The worst thing that happened to us was the laterals leaking into the well for drinking water, which made a few people sick. Edited April 29, 2013 by regeneratia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted April 29, 2013 #239 Share Posted April 29, 2013 i will definatly be reading think of the children now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted April 29, 2013 Author #240 Share Posted April 29, 2013 i will definatly be reading think of the children now If you mean "Someone Cry For The Children" - it's darned hard to find and the last price I saw on ebay was $60... If you like I could lend my copy to you... PM me if you are interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATTHEWAK47 Posted May 5, 2013 #241 Share Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) I browsed through the book (Someone Cry For the Children) and it dealt a lot more with the evidence than TN8 did... TN8 was more a character study of the trial - and how the author felt that Hart was railroaded by the FBI and OSBI... SCFTC was pretty much the opposite.. showing how Hart received a prejudiced jury (prejudiced in favor not against), and how the trial was covered by a sympathetic - highly sensationalistic press... After reading TN8 I felt that hart was probably involved in crimes in the area at the same time - but if directly involved int he murders was not alone... After SCFTC I felt that, it was very possible that hart did it by himself... Honestly I don't know.. My gut feeling right now is that the murders were committed by a Native American... While the defenses specialists claimed the hair found on the girls was not an exact match of Hart's... They never addressed that it was very similar... Also, the defense made a case of Hart's vasectomy and that he could not have left sperm in or on the girls... Yet at Harts autopsy it was revealed that his vasectomy had failed (rather common back then actually)... As for the wedding photo's being planted by the Sheriff..There was documentation on file that showed Hart had signed for possession of the photo's prior to the murders (I don't remember exactly when)... And it still makes no sense to me that the Sheriff would hold onto a very innocuous random photo by an already captured convict, just to plant on him later - in case.... Makes no sense... Hart was known to either have a fetish for women's glasses - or was unable to buy his own and so stole glasses of similar prescriptions whenever he could find them... (seeing as how the camp was only 2 miles from the cave where he was apparently hanging out - it makes sense that he would take women's glasses).... Hart was a Cherokee of the 'old school' meaning the rituals and beliefs were real to him - at the cave they found the remains of ceremonial fires set up in the tribal way, and used cigarettes with the filters broken off - this was/is very common among Cherokee's when ever they are performing their 'magic' or cleansing themselves... They always break off the filters... Also found in the cave of course were the glasses that had been stolen on the night of the murders as well as the wedding photo... So in my mind it is pretty clear that Hart was there int he Girl Scout Camp that night and - at the very least- committed robbery... The fact that there was (apparently) only one flashlight used by the murderer(s) on that very dark night, indicates to me that there was probably only one perp... Granted they could have taken other lights away - but only one light was reported being seen... The flashlight in Lori Farmers sleeping bag was hers - the book makes no special claims about it being used in a bad way upon the child - so I think the second light is a 'red herring'... If Hart acted alone - here is how I see it happening... After the main rain storm passed, he began making his way into the camp grounds probably making entry in the general vicinity of camp Cherokee or Comanche -as a dim moving light was spotted in those areas... It was dark and in the woods which meant visibility was next to nothing, it was either still raining slightly or had just finished - so the ground was slippery and tracks would be easy to leave... By these factors Hart would have to be moving relatively slowly... factors in his favor would be everyone was inside, the water dripping from the leaves would help to mask any noise and he was very familiar with the grounds, plus his many years of hunting skills would help him to move relatively silently... Sometime after midnight, He arrives at Camp Kiowa... He approached tent #6 (?) lifted a flap and shined his light inside - which seems rather risky for him actually... For whatever reason he left the tent and went to #7 (8)... Upon entering, Lori's cot was nearest the door, he gives her a single strike to the head - killing her instantly, moving to Michelle's cot (no more than a step or two away) he also strikes her either killing her or so severely hurting her she is effectively in a coma (evidence points to the first two dying in the tent)... Then he gets to Denise... Perhaps she was partially awake, perhaps he wanted to kill her later, he subdues her, binds her with the duct tape, then begins trying to clean up the crime scene... Perhaps he was thinking that if he smeared the blood around, he could erase any footprints he might have left (remember he was a hunter and he would have wanted to destroy his tracks)... Since the girls were already in their sleeping bags, it would have been a bit easier for him to carry them out, like sacks of grain...Taking them back the way he came in to get to the gate that led to his cave... Perhaps Denise began to fight him as much as she could, so he stops near the gate and rather than take them back to his cave finishes his vile acts there... The camp counselor coming down the path for her early morning shower interrupts him and causes him to flee leaving his flashlight, tape and rope behind... So there was (in this theory) no special significance to the spot the girls were found in except that it was here they became too much of a burden or bother to him... That is another reason I'm leaning toward a single perp... If the perp(s) were interrupted as I theorize above, two or three men running away would have been highly noticeable... 1 man could slip away much easier... From what I can gather from the book the girls were bound in a similar fashion to the two women that Hart had been convicted of raping and attempting to murder earlier had... A strip of duct tape across the mouth, another across the eyes, and finally one over the nose - effectively suffocating the victims... There was also a nylon rope found with the roll of duct tape, perhaps that was used to bind the sleeping bags together so they could be carried easier - the book does not say... My god man that's it! ! ! ! ! Edited May 5, 2013 by MATTHEWAK47 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousLittleOne Posted May 6, 2013 #242 Share Posted May 6, 2013 My god man that's it! ! ! ! ! sure is, get this man a cookie! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted May 6, 2013 Author #243 Share Posted May 6, 2013 I appreciate the comments... but remember that both books I got the info out of were sketchy - at best- on presenting the actual evidence, and both books were biased - one for and one against Hart... so it's all an infantryman's conjecture 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted August 19, 2013 #244 Share Posted August 19, 2013 [media=] [/media] 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taun Posted August 19, 2013 Author #245 Share Posted August 19, 2013 That's an intersting video regi... This is the first I've heard of this... I'll have to dig a bit and see what turns up... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted August 19, 2013 #246 Share Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) That's an intersting video regi... This is the first I've heard of this... Yeah, Taun. You know, considering the amount of investigative analysis done on this case, it's hard to believe we've never before seen that video or even heard about those circumstances. (There's info./discussion re: that other murder on the girlscout murder yuku board.) Edited August 19, 2013 by regi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Surfer Posted August 19, 2013 #247 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I read all the posts on this "locust Grove" community forum and went to all the links.. this case certainly is an interesting one.. The whole things actually quite a good read... there are certainly many varying thoughts on it and some very interesting reports by first hand camp staff and locals at the time. http://www.topix.com/forum/family/TOMILBU3RJTRDGU18 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacsMom Posted August 21, 2013 #248 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I know this thread has been around a while, but I must say it was because of this thread that caused me to finally join UM so I could post. This crime is one of those that just sticks with me. Perhaps because I used to be a girl scout, perhaps it's because there has been no justice for those little girls. Big thanks to those that are continuing to investigate and keep this front and center here. Hope some closure can be gotten one day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBumble Posted September 4, 2013 #249 Share Posted September 4, 2013 (edited) This video has interesting info. Includes a view of two of the autopsy head wound sketches. Edited September 4, 2013 by TheBumble 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBumble Posted September 4, 2013 #250 Share Posted September 4, 2013 More from the same news series on the case. This one includes interviews with Lori's mom, Weaver, and the man who found the cave (as well as the evidence in the cave). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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