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Taun

The Girl Scout Camp Murders

782 posts in this topic

Here is a shot of cave 1 it is south east of camp Scoot but Hart's mothers house west of it.

post-134418-0-52796600-1351869389_thumb.

Edited by MATTHEWAK47

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I have been to cave #1 on the Spring creek and will tell you if you go by the river from cave 1 to camp scoot frist Spring then Snake creek it took me almost 5 hours to walk that bad boy and I had to set down to eat.( lots fo walking)

So I would say Hart didn't go right to cave 1 after the killings but to a house or his mothers house to clean up and to hid things that he took with him.( his mothe's house is less then a mile from camp Scoot )

That is just too much walking and not being seen unless he used NDN magic.

My approach is to try to focus on the evidence and not so much on a suspect.

It would have been danged nice if the OSBI applied some of the same logic Taun did in his above post.

Even the parents have questions, and they were present in the courtroom.

A sticking point for me is that this was a small town and a lot of rural area, and a lot of folks who live there have lived there their entire lives.

My point is, wherever Hart's mother lived, it seems it wouldn't have made a difference. It would have been close enough for authorities or anyone else to use it against him.

I haven't heard any evidence that Hart was even in that area.

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My approach is to try to focus on the evidence and not so much on a suspect.

It would have been danged nice if the OSBI applied some of the same logic Taun did in his above post.

Even the parents have questions, and they were present in the courtroom.

A sticking point for me is that this was a small town and a lot of rural area, and a lot of folks who live there have lived there their entire lives.

My point is, wherever Hart's mother lived, it seems it wouldn't have made a difference. It would have been close enough for authorities or anyone else to use it against him.

I haven't heard any evidence that Hart was even in that area.

I don't know if even the evidence in this case is right too much he said she said.

What I have tried to do is put myself in the killer place ( I feel it was Hart ) by going out there on the land lots of times and seeing how a person could do it. From what I have seen from the last 5 years of going down there is that the evidence is wrong on a lot of stuff I don't think it's as crazy as a lot of people say because of the years that have went by.

1 It was planed.

2 It would have not been that hard to do.

3 He knew the land and was a great hunter ( the killer that is )

4 OSBI fuc..ed it all up and I can't understand that...

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Here is a shot of cave 1 it is south east of camp Scoot but Hart's mothers house west of it.

Sorry, that pic is too small for my feeble old eyes :cry: ...

According to the first map you posted, cave #1 is South WEST of Camp Scot, not South East... So does that place Hart's mother's house Northwest of Cave #1 and West of Camp Scot?... From what I'd read before I got the mental image that his mother's place was basically just outside the north gate of the camp - but thinking back I never actually read anyone say "North"...

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I don't know if even the evidence in this case is right too much he said she said.

What I have tried to do is put myself in the killer place ( I feel it was Hart ) by going out there on the land lots of times and seeing how a person could do it. From what I have seen from the last 5 years of going down there is that the evidence is wrong on a lot of stuff

1 It was planed.

2 It would have not been that hard to do.

3 He knew the land and was a great hunter ( the killer that is )

4 OSBI fuc..ed it all up and I can't understand that...

I think it's fortunate that you've had opportunities to visit the area...I know it's still rural around that vicinity, but I see on google maps new housing and businesses here and there...

I don't think the perp had to be a hunter because I don't believe the perp actually lived in a cave.

I really can't see the perp- especially Hart on the run for four years- hanging around the vicinity after the murders, breaking back into Shroff's place and burglarizing the store. (I wonder how well those individual incidents were investigated. What, if any, evidence came from that?)

When you found the cave, did you also find the cellar? It was said to be near the cave and near where the photos were found.

It was said to be the cellar of Hart's childhood home.

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This story is in one of my new Weird U.S. State books (I forgot which one) but apparently the camp has been abandoned. I think it was one of the counselors who did it. IDK.

I apologize for not noticing this earlier Princess... Just sort of missed it...

I don't think a counselor did it - though of course it's possible... The counselors that I've been able to read any thing on at all have been very young women - 18-23 years old or in that neighborhood... They slept several (2?) to a tent as much as I can tell and were seldom out of each others view that night (they were spooked by the storm and the night noises as much as the kids were)...

Plus, none of them were ever involved in anything remotely like these crimes again... and this sort of evil criminal is seldom satisfied with doing it just once.... This is not a major factor in my belief that they were not involved but it is a point against it in my mind...

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At this point, what's standing out to me is the knowledge the perp(s) seemed to have of that camp. (It seemed evident early on, but personally, I never realized before how evident it seems to be.)

If all events of that night were related (including the purse thefts), the perp traveled through the Kiowa, Quapaw, and Choctaw units, entered the counselors tents of all three, and possibly, ONLY the counselors tents of two.

That's interesting because I'm wondering how (or if) the counselors tents were differentiated from other tents in the three different units.

I'd wondered about Arapaho- just because it appeared on the map to be of closer proximity than Choctaw and (to me) seemed as secluded Kiowa, yet it was "by-passed", but I guess it's possible that the perp(s) could have scoped out Arapaho or even other tents in other units, and found nothing to take....

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I think that Arapaho was by-passed because it looks to me like they came in near the gate just south of Kiowa.. and probably did not get as far north as Arapaho...

Edited by Taun

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I think that Arapaho was by-passed because it looks to me like they came in near the gate just south of Kiowa.. and probably did not get as far north as Arapaho...

I'm curious as to why there was a gate which lead to adjoining property. So, apparently, there was vehicle access to that location. I don't know why that would be, but it's interesting.

And that's pretty danged interesting that the bodies were carried toward that gate location.

You know, there's been speculation as to why the perp carried three bodies all that distance...that it was possibly for a quick discovery, but that's making less and less sense. This appears far more that the perp was headed for that gate.

...maybe the perp wasn't trying to clean the tent floor for prints as much as trying to DELAY the discovery...and hide the bodies so what was done to the bodies wouldn't be known.

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Maybe Matt can answer this one... But that gate was probably for maintenance reasons during the off season... Perhaps whoever had the adjoining land had some kind of arrangement where they brush hogged the land, etc...

You're comment about delaying discovery does now make a lot of sense.. also why the bodies were taken to that spot... Perhaps the perps wanted to remove the bodies totally, but ran late and Wilhite's approach sent them off with out the bodies.... Just guessing but then that's all we can really do on this case...

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What a sick world we live in :( I hate it when threats arent taken seriously. I am even shocked that the girls were alone in a tent at such a young age-I thought they would be in a group with at least one adult supervisor. I know it may be in the middle of nowhere and quite a few years ago-when perhaps these kinds of crimes werent considered commonplace, but it just seems they neglected to watch the children properly or listen to them when they reported a strange man around. Im glad they caught the killer-at least i hope they got the man responsible!! So sad :(

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Maybe Matt can answer this one... But that gate was probably for maintenance reasons during the off season... Perhaps whoever had the adjoining land had some kind of arrangement where they brush hogged the land, etc...

You're comment about delaying discovery does now make a lot of sense.. also why the bodies were taken to that spot... Perhaps the perps wanted to remove the bodies totally, but ran late and Wilhite's approach sent them off with out the bodies.... Just guessing but then that's all we can really do on this case...

That gate to me looks like it sould not be there and I don't know why it is because there is not a road to it from outside of the camp and it leads out on open land.

The killer (HART) walked into the camp so EZ and could look around from there and after the killings go right back out it...

Now on why take the bodies it's sick but I feel the killer would have liked to take the bodies to fool aroud with them in a more safe place after doing what he did. But something stoped him that I don't know...

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that gate was probably for maintenance reasons during the off season... Perhaps whoever had the adjoining land had some kind of arrangement where they brush hogged the land, etc...

That sounds plausible.

A poster on the yuku site said she was told that it was the original entrance to the camp which also sounds plausible because the other gate is referred to as the "main" gate.

There was a road referred to as Cavalier Road, and from what I've read, it sounds like it was essentially between the Shroff's and Cavalier properties, but I'm not sure, and I don't know if it would be the same road one would take to have accessed that gate.

The thing about it is whether the gate was actually accessible to the perp at the time.

Interestingly, on the most detailed map I've seen, the gate isn't shown!, but there shows to have been a parking area behind the staff house which seems it would have been in the same direction.

http://www.girlscout...es/Project1.jpg

Edited by regi
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What a sick world we live in :( I hate it when threats arent taken seriously. I am even shocked that the girls were alone in a tent at such a young age-I thought they would be in a group with at least one adult supervisor. I know it may be in the middle of nowhere and quite a few years ago-when perhaps these kinds of crimes werent considered commonplace, but it just seems they neglected to watch the children properly or listen to them when they reported a strange man around. Im glad they caught the killer-at least i hope they got the man responsible!! So sad :(

I can't disagree with you on those feelings.... As to why the girls were in tents without counselors... there were over 100 girls there and only a handful of adults - which is pretty typical of summer camps in this country - or use to be anyway... It use to be rather difficult to find adults who would volunteer their time... Also part of the fun of being at summer camp is (was) having a 'room' to your selves without adults so you could stay up and talk all night if you wanted to... - or even get out and sneak around for a bit of harmlessly being naughty by doing something your not supposed to... Plus the benefit of giving one of the kids in the tent added responsibilities by being "in charge" - Don't know if that was how Camp Scott did things - but that was how things were done on many of the Boy Scout camping trips I took in the 60's...

Anyway... Welcome to the thread!

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Re: Arapaho, another poster on the yuku site said she'd camped at Camp Scott mid '60's to '70.

She said she remembered the Quapaw unit the most, and that the shortcut to Arapaho was often a muddy mess.

That could have been why Arapaho might have been avoided...

She also said (during the times she was there) that Osage, Chickasaw, and Creek were winterized cabins and weren't used for summer camping.

That causes me to realize that not all the units were occupied.

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Hi to all,

I can see you have been posting good questions and coming up with differnet things. And Matt, you really have been walking the area and looking for the caves? thats a mighty task and I'm sure lots of climbing and walking. Take any pictures of the caves or anything you found?

So I'm the SKAB from the other forum... It's been really quite over there and no one seems to want to talk, so if you have any questions I will try to help if I can.

As for the maps I posted of the old Camp Scott land, with where the tents or campsites were located, I have actually been to the land with permission from the owner. I took my handheld GPS and scouted around looking for what was left of the campsite locations, in most cases it was the bathrooms or the little concrete shower/storage buildings, not really intact, but still there since they were the only things with concrete floors.

The owner has left everything primitive and fall down except the staff house, where a renter lives, the directors cabin where another renter lives and the great house where the owners daughter has been redoing and I've heard she lives in it. The rangers cabin burned down sometime in the 80's, the health center is used as a storage building, the cooks cabin is falling down. And the cabins they could winterize are the concrete and brick cabins located to the left as you come through the front gate. They include Seminole, the red barn and Cedar lodge which are still there but falling down. As for the other campsites, as I said, the only things still there are the restrooms (Latrines) and maybe the concrete floors of the showers. Most of the land is least during the year by hunters who have their campers and stuff out and around. So as for it being abandon its not, the camp as a working girl scout camp has been abandoned but the land is privately owned and used. The owner is over 80 years in age and is not very trusting about having people come out there, he seems nice but very hard of hearing over the phone. I haven't talked to him in several years and have no idea how he feels about people coming out there at this point with his daughter living there.

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Glad to see you here SKAB... Welcome to UM... The other site you post on is an interesting place... I just wish I had the time to delve into it more... (works kinda crazy right now...)

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Hello, all! What bizarre murders and confusing reports and fascinating case! Kudos to the posters who’ve been so diligently investigating this.

I remember those tents at G.S. camp. I can still smell them! (not this camp). They had 4 beds to a tent and we never had counselors in our tents. This would have been in the 70’s. We city girls were always hyper-alert at night and heard everything, but would eventually succumb and sleep like logs in the fresh outdoors.

After reading these 12 pages in this thread some of my observations/questions are:

--Why is there no visible blood on the two sleeping bags? (from the photos)

--Where are the perps clothes from that night? (burned? with the purses? as was planned for the bedding?)

--Did Hart ever have anything to say about all this?

--Why did they hurry the girls through breakfast and then take some of the girls for a long hike in the woods and some swimming in the creek on the morning the murders were discovered? What leader (or law enforcement) would have allowed that? What counselors would have gone into the woods or creek that morning?

--How could the young girl who identified Stevens as the man who peeked in her tent, recognize at night who was behind a flashlight in her eyes? And if he saw she was awake…?

--When were the scent dogs used and to trail whom?

--This was a lengthy, violent, messy, multiple victim, mobile crime, in proximity of witnesses. Yes, he got away without being caught that night (or at all) but was it a carelessly risky and amazingly lucky chemically fed/controlled crime, or well-planned and consciously stealthy?

--It does seem he had plans for the bodies, etc., and was spooked or changed his mind (sobered up?) and left early.

--No arguing (obvious male voices) was said to have been heard that night. If you have more than one killer, and this is one hyped-up act going on, I would think you might get hostile tempers flying between the killers?

--That farmer noticed oddly miscellaneous stuff as having been stolen. He’s one alert guy.

--Could it have been an “In Cold Blood” type case and Hart had talked about the camp to someone else in prison who had an interest in raping young girls?

--Why could a car have not been used to get away and planned to be used to move the bodies, etc?

--Hart (or anyone) easily could have scouted out and even stayed at the camp in the less active “off” season.

--The thefts in the counselors tents happening that night by the murderer(s) is extremely odd and hard to believe. Yet they’d show hubris like the murders, possibly chemically induced?

--I can also see the thefts being the “inside” work of campers or counselors or workers… 100+ people you’re going to see that.

--The item(s) used to kill the two girls was never identified?

--The murders themselves seem rich in providing a profile of the murderer(s). So much the murderer(s) did at the scene and the choice of victims and where …has anyone since tried to profile the killer(s)? Maybe to input whether one or more killers were involved.

--The internet is great, but it can sure make a mess of things when researching too.

Edited by QuiteContrary
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Hi QC... welcome to the thread...

You raised some very good questions... Unfortunately, questions are what we have most of in this crazy case...

I'll take a stab at responding to a few of them...

- Scent dogs... The dogs apparently weren't on the scene very long... It took a couple days to get them in from Pennsylvania and of the three which were brought in, within hours 2 were dead... One to heat stroke - and another to being run over by a truck (in the woods?)... Also... If the perp(s) walked through the creek as Matt said he did, it's very likely there was no scent for the dogs to continue following...

- One of my uncles was a farmer, and let me tell you he could recall where every little nut, screw and bolt was in his workshop/barn... They are very observant people... Of course he couldn't recall the color of his living room wall - but oh well...

- I have no idea what happened to the clothing that the perp(s) were wearing... No bloody clothing was found... Perhaps the clothes are at the bottom of the nearby lake Hudson... Or were burned... I've found no mention of the clothing in any of the things I've read about this case... Not even a mention of it's absence as a clue...

- I can only guess why there was no visible blood on the sleeping bags... Perhaps the blood was on the inside... The girls would have been inside them when attacked - especially if the attack came after 3 AM...

- Hart was very closed lipped... Apparently he was somewhat of a 'non-talker' even normally... As soon as he was arrested he 'clammed up' until he had a lawyer - though he did maintain his innocence...

- Lately I've been toying with the idea that perhaps Hart acted as the 'scout' for this crime... Letting one (or two) others actually commit the crime while he did the set up work... I'm not convinced of this idea, but it was a thought... Though how someone would even broach the subject to other people is beyond my ability to understand...

edit to add: When I stated that matt said he had walked through the creek, I didn't mean that he said the perp did - just that he - Matt - had...

- Also, I think the counselors took the girls on hikes to get them away from the general scene with all the police - and to try and keep them calm and occupied until buses could arrive to take them home... I doubt that they hiked anywhere near the crime scene... However many of the girls were interviewed by the police that morning, which is where some of the odd sightings and noises were first reported....

Edited by Taun

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How sad. The youngest was my age and they should all be parents now. :-(

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Today we would call this kind of analysis of the evidence at hand, criminal profiling. Dr. Phillips spent 25 years of his professional life treating criminals and the criminally insane. He was a member of a private organization called the Barkouras Foundation, and over time Oklahoma's criminal courts came to rely on the "profiles" this foundation producedG

1. the perpatrator suffers from an overwhelming infeiority complex. He hates himself and he hates the world. He fears rejection; especially rejection by women. He is a very depressed and angry person. The killer hates being alive and murdering is his way of taking revenge on a world that he believes has mistreated him.

2. He is a sexual sadist and he will strike again if he is not caught. His sadism is expressed in his anger at life. Sex symbolizes something to him but something very different than what it means to people in normal society. Because the killer hates happiness, innocence and decency, the killer uses sex to degrade these things and himself. Usually sex is "life giving" but in his case sex is "life taking".

3. Despite modern psychiatric medicine and therapy, his kind of mental illness can not be cured. He does not have a chronic psychosis.

4. While he is not legally insane, he survives on such a savage, animal level that all efforts to rehabilitate him would be in vain.

5. He was methodical and calculating in the carrying out of this crime. Dr. Phillips believes that he may have come only to kill one girl but then passion took over and he kept returning to the tent for another and yet another victim. He could not leave the bodies alone.

6. He became completely caught up in his deed. He carried the girls beyond the unit area and continued to violate them.

7. At that moment, right outside of the Kiowa Unit, the perpatrator was a madman, an animal, a monster.

8. At some point though, something abruptly happened which brought him "back" and/or alarmed him.

9. Suddenly the killer, like an animal covering his tracks, begins to try and cover his tracks. He stuffs two of the small girls deep into their sleeping bags. He takes sleeping bags, towels, whatever he can find and begins trying to wipe up the blood. This is a man with complete disorder in his life trying to create order.

10. Some kind of severe trauma occurred in this man's life to make him feel extremely inferior and to build up such a passionate hatred in him.

Edited by MATTHEWAK47

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Events Leading Up To The Crime

Strange events were taking place around Camp Scott leading up to the murders.An effigy in the form of a man was found hanging from a tree by its neck, with its genitals showing, and personal items were disappearing from tents. The most interesting event was the discovery of a note in April which read "we are on a mission to kill 3 girls in tent 1". The note was considered a prank and never given to police.

The Crime

A storm hit the area around 6PM, causing heavy rain. Because of the weather, the campers were sent back to their tents.At approximately 1:30AM, moaning was heard near camp Kiowa. Carla, a counselor at the camp, checked out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning. It would stop whenever the beam of her flashlight came near.

Carla was standing at the intersection of the trail, 150 yards from Tent 8 and a dirt road leading to the main camp.At approximately 2AM, the tent flap of #7 was opened. Three of the girls inside were sleeping. The fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light moving about the interior from outside, with the silhouette of a large figure behind it. The figure moved off toward Tent 8. Moaning sounds were heard throughout the night, not just by those in the Kiowa section but in four other units of the camp.At approximately 3AM, a girl in the Cherokee section across the woods heard a scream come from the direction of Kiowa, located about two city blocks away. A girl in Quapaw also heard a scream. The scream seemed to be cries of "momma! momma!"The girl thought it may have been the voice of Lori Farmer.

At approximately 6AM, Carla found sleeping bags under a tree near the intersection in a pile.

The Bodies

Doris Milner was found nude from the waist down with her pyjama top pulled up underneath her arms. Her hands had been tied behind her back with duct tape and she had been beaten around the face.Around her neck a cord and an elastic bandage were visible. A round cylinder shaped object about four inches long made of terrycloth was attached to the cord. The elastic bandage had been used as a blindfold; the terrycloth object as a gag.Michele Heather Guse and Lori Farmer were found inside their sleeping bags. Both bodies had been bound into a tight, compact, fetal-like position.

Evidence

Guse's and Farmer's sleeping bags contained bloody bed sheets that had been used by the killer to wipe down the blood found on the wood floor of the tent. Also found was a roll of black duct tape and a flashlight the murderer had discarded.

Jack Shroff was the owner of a farm 1 miles west of Camp Scott whose house had been broken into. Some of the items taken from his home were a sash cord, a roll of duct tape, 3 bottles of beer and 3 identical crow bars. The beer bottles were later found empty on the camp grounds.

Outside Shroff's door a jungle boot style print was found. It matched other boot prints found near the crime scene.

Another print had been found on the blood soaked floor of Tent 8.

*Boot Print Size 10

*Shoe Print (possible tennis shoe) size 7

Cause of Death

Guse and Farmer were killed inside the tent. They were struck by a heavy blunt object in the back of their heads while they slept.Milner may have been led out of the tent, raped, and then killed. When found, her face had been beaten with such force that the object responsible had left behind its shape. She had died on the trail. Her cause of death was strangulation, not blunt force trauma.At autopsy it was revealed that two different types of knots had reportedly been used; head wounds on two of the victims indicated two different blunt instruments.

Analysis

Physical evidence left behind at the crime scene and evidence recovered during autopsy indicates that two offenders were involved in the crime.The nature of the crime scene was a mixed scene, all of the equipment necessary to commit the crime was brought along, yet no steps were taken to conceal the crime after it was committed. This indicates that two offenders were involved. The offenders would have left the area immediately after the crime.This crime is one that would have been planned months, possibly years in advance. The killers were probably good friends, given the nature of the crimes.

Because of the remoteness of the crime scene, the offenders knew the area well; they were probably either avid hunters or lived in the area.

Only one of the girls was the intended target.The other two girls were most likely murdered because they could identify the offenders.

one or both of the offenders may have had a history of sexual assault, possibly involving children.

This may not have been the first murder for one of both of the offenders. The level of violence indicates that these offenders were not new to murder and had been involved in some type of violent crime previous to this one.

However, the crime itself was sloppy and excessively violent so this may have been the offenders' first murder.The girls could have been led out of the tent, or tied up and dragged out of the tent, and killed in another location that would have been more difficult to find, therefore concealing their identity. Instead, the victims were murdered inside of the tent, leaving behind shoe prints and blood.

The victims were all young girls that were surprised in their tent late at night while probably sleeping. They were badly beaten and raped.

This was the first step in the escalation of violence, leading to murder.

Edited by MATTHEWAK47

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Just something to think on..

Edited by MATTHEWAK47

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Post #171 was interesting Matt... I hadn't considered that perhaps the perp committed the first murder - left, then returned to committ another...

I don't think that is what happened... but I had not considered it...

If so, he would not have been able to have gone very far before returning - due to time constraints... he would most likely have left multiple tracks and prints to be discovered later, the chance of discovery would have gone up greatly with each leg of his trip...The other girls in the tent could have awakened and sounded an alarm very easily... AS I said - I don't think that is what happened but still... It's not beyond the realm of being possible...

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- Also, I think the counselors took the girls on hikes to get them away from the general scene with all the police - and to try and keep them calm and occupied until buses could arrive to take them home... I doubt that they hiked anywhere near the crime scene... However many of the girls were interviewed by the police that morning, which is where some of the odd sightings and noises were first reported....

Thanks, Taun.

I still don't see what leader would send the girls into the surrounding woods with a crazed killer on the loose. It makes absolutely no sense. They should have been locked in a hall with police protection. If I got there while my daughter was out in the woods somewhere, I'd have been furious. According to the cops the killer was trekking about the woods, maybe more than one killer. What counselor would be brave enough to head this up?

As a leader, I would think of the girls as my girls and be very protective of them. When something like this happens you hold them closer, you do not let them go out of your sight.

So, did they really send the kids off into the creek and woods? I have to wonder.

I would still think blood would easily seep through the old cloth (child) sleeping bags. And head trauma would produce a lot of blood.

I assume this would be a messy crime that would leave blood all over the killer, while he taped up the beaten girls. And then he carried their sleeping bags. Or did he tape them up first, shove them into the bags and then bludgeon them? That would be noisy and suggest more than one killer to me. And you'd still have seeping blood through the bag and onto the weapon? Which could assume two weapons then were used. A clean one on each girl???

I'm not arguing with you Taun, but the case itself.

I too have thought about Hart as possibly stealing that night while someone else did the killings. But Hart certainly would have given the other perp up wouldn't he? And why leave getting caught in the hands of a partner like Hart? I wish a modern profiler had a published opinion on this case.

I will read your posts Matthew, later today.

Edited by QuiteContrary
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