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Harsh86_Patel

Vedic mythology collobarate with science?

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Aboriginal Australia culture is older by a few tens of thousands of years than almost anything in India, save for maybe that of the Sentinelese people. Just sayin'

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We know how old the aborigenal people are but we probably don't know accurately how old the Aryan culture was.

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We know how old the aborigenal people are but we probably don't know accurately how old the Aryan culture was.

That's exactly why you can't state that Indo-Aryans are the oldest surviving culture in the world. There are no traces if Indo-Aryans before 2000 BCE, while there is a continuous and unbroken Aboriginal culture that goes back tens of thousands of years.

And as I've said, there are the Sentinelese people on the Andaman Islands, who have probably been living there since the Middle Palaeolithic with little or no cultural change. (They are an uncontacted people, so we can't be 100% sure, but it seems they haven't even invented fire)

And about "Vedic Science", with enough hindsight, you can read great discoveries into anything.

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No traces of indo-aryans before 2000 b.c is a dubious and unsupported statement which is no more held to be valid.

This thread is about discussing the whether vedic philosophies collaberate with modern science.Maybe one has inspired the other.I know many religions claim their religious text to be scientific.

How do you know they are uncontacted?Probably in recent times but not necessarily through out human history.

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No traces of indo-aryans before 2000 b.c is a dubious and unsupported statement which is no more held to be valid.

Show me a single archaeological find relating to Indo-Aryans from before 2000 BCE. Or anything that would suggest that they are anywhere near as old as the Aboriginal Australians.

This thread is about discussing the whether vedic philosophies collaberate with modern science.Maybe one has inspired the other.I know many religions claim their religious text to be scientific.

And all of them are wrong, when it comes to modern science. In this particular case, they rely on hindsight, gross oversimplification and especially liberal interpretations of obscure and uncertain units of measurement to come up with numbers that support their claim.

How do you know they are uncontacted?Probably in recent times but not necessarily through out human history.

Because not even their Andamanese neighbours have any contact with them. Also, they seem to live a prehistoric way of life and are one of the two (maybe three) known cultures in the world who don't know how to make a fire. They would have learned that and many more through outside contact.

Edited by Clobhair-cean
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Show me a single archaeological find relating to Indo-Aryans from before 2000 BCE. Or anything that would suggest that they are anywhere near as old as the Aboriginal Australians.

And all of them are wrong, when it comes to modern science. In this particular case, they rely on hindsight, gross oversimplification and especially liberal interpretations of obscure and uncertain units of measurement to come up with numbers that support their claim.

Because not even their Andamanese neighbours have any contact with them. Also, they seem to live a prehistoric way of life and are one of the two (maybe three) known cultures in the world who don't know how to make a fire. They would have learned that and many more through outside contact.

Gross over simplification is not very evident in the two comparisons whereas many astronomers,scientists etc have looked into taking inspirations from the Vedas and they publicly admitted it.Very few were Indian and most were Westerners or European and from a different religion.You think they were all just making it up?

Regarding a culture not knowing presently how to make fire,maybe they forgot about it or were banished and isolated after a particular period of time,there can be many explainations for that.

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No traces of indo-aryans before 2000 b.c is a dubious and unsupported statement which is no more held to be valid.

This thread is about discussing the whether vedic philosophies collaberate with modern science.Maybe one has inspired the other.I know many religions claim their religious text to be scientific.

How do you know they are uncontacted?Probably in recent times but not necessarily through out human history.

Everyone from Einstein to Tesla read the Vedic texts.

Their work aint their own.

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Few similes i found which stood out quite prominently-

1)Concept of 'Brhman' or an underlying eternal vibration that is manifest in all things in the universe which has 10 directions/dimensions and the String theory.

2)Pantheism and the God particle being the particle that makes up all matter.

3)The 'Dasavatar of Vishnu' and the supposed evolutionary history from life i.e from water to land to human etc.

4)Yoga and Pranayam and Physiotherapy and Breathing techniques.

5)Karma and the philosophy/science of 'cause and effect'.

6)Mechanised flight in Rig Veda and modern mechanised flight.

These concepts are elaborately described in the Vedas and the Puranas and hence cannot be dismissed as attempts of comparison with 'hind sight' alone

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Everyone from Einstein to Tesla read the Vedic texts.

Their work aint their own.

That is an extreme statement.I feel it should suffice to say that they did take inspiration from the Veda.

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It seems that you have forgotten my request to provide evidence for pre-2000 BCE Indo-Aryans.

Gross over simplification is not very evident in the two comparisons whereas many astronomers,scientists etc have looked into taking inspirations from the Vedas and they publicly admitted it.Very few were Indian and most were Westerners or European and from a different religion.You think they were all just making it up?

People draw inspiration from a lot of things, how's that related to anything. Just because something is inspiring, it doesn't need to have a truth value

Regarding a culture not knowing presently how to make fire,maybe they forgot about it or were banished and isolated after a particular period of time,there can be many explainations for that.

The control of fire is one of the most basic things known to humans, it's kinda hard to forget, since practically everyone knows how to do it. Also, DNA evidence has also pointed towards the Andamanese in general being members of a very ancient human lineage.

Few similes i found which stood out quite prominently-

1)Concept of 'Brhman' or an underlying eternal vibration that is manifest in all things in the universe which has 10 directions/dimensions and the String theory.

String Theory is in itself fairly dubious and is still up to much debate. Furthermore, like all theoretical physics, it is immensely complex. Cherry-picking vibrations and multiple dimensions is far from being proof that there's anything in the Vedas about this yet unproven 20th century idea.

2)Pantheism and the God particle being the particle that makes up all matter.

If by God Particle, you mean the Higgs Boson, then you are wrong and yet again guilty of a gross oversimplification of science. The Higgs is just one of many basic particles. It's main role is that it indicates the presence of the Higgs Field, which seems to give mass to certain particles. Have the Vedas mentioned that?

Also, the God Particle is a misnomer. Leon Lederman, who coined the term wanted to call the particle the "Goddamn Particle", but it was changed due to the interference of his editor.

3)The 'Dasavatar of Vishnu' and the supposed evolutionary history from life i.e from water to land to human etc.

Yet another claim that is not consistent with actual science. It is practically the ancient and bogus idea of the Great Chain of Being, which is at direct odds at the modern understanding of Evolution as a nonlinear process where the humans are definitely not the end result.

4)Yoga and Pranayam and Physiotherapy and Breathing techniques.

Yoga, like all exercise has health benefits. And controlled breathing having effects on the vascular system is also well-known, but much of the medical effects claimed by its practitioners, like that you can use it to cure cancer, is absurd.

Also, if the people who wrote the Vedas were so medically literate, how come the germ theory of disease completely eluded them?

5)Karma and the philosophy/science of 'cause and effect'.

This is an extremely broad topic that is not in any ways unique to the Vedas

6)Mechanised flight in Rig Veda and modern mechanised flight.

That's absolute hokum. There is absolutely no mechanised flight in the Vedas, and I challenge you to prove me wrong with a direct quote from the text.

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Few similes i found which stood out quite prominently-

1)Concept of 'Brhman' or an underlying eternal vibration that is manifest in all things in the universe which has 10 directions/dimensions and the String theory.

None of your references even mention string theory.

Do you even know what it is?

Are you aware that it postulates 11 dimensions, and not ten?

The number ten is associated with the concept of Brahman, yes. It's also associated with Dr. Pepper (10, 2 and 4.)

Is the Dr. Pepper logo referring to String theory?

Harte

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None of your references even mention string theory.

Do you even know what it is?

Are you aware that it postulates 11 dimensions, and not ten?

The number ten is associated with the concept of Brahman, yes. It's also associated with Dr. Pepper (10, 2 and 4.)

Is the Dr. Pepper logo referring to String theory?

Harte

The string theory originally postulated 10 dimensions and are contemplating an 11th to explain a few more anamolies.I am talking about drawing a basic parallel.I have some idea about the string theory and i can understand it in a working fashion.

I like Dr.Pepper.

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It seems that you have forgotten my request to provide evidence for pre-2000 BCE Indo-Aryans.

People draw inspiration from a lot of things, how's that related to anything. Just because something is inspiring, it doesn't need to have a truth value

The control of fire is one of the most basic things known to humans, it's kinda hard to forget, since practically everyone knows how to do it. Also, DNA evidence has also pointed towards the Andamanese in general being members of a very ancient human lineage.

String Theory is in itself fairly dubious and is still up to much debate. Furthermore, like all theoretical physics, it is immensely complex. Cherry-picking vibrations and multiple dimensions is far from being proof that there's anything in the Vedas about this yet unproven 20th century idea.

If by God Particle, you mean the Higgs Boson, then you are wrong and yet again guilty of a gross oversimplification of science. The Higgs is just one of many basic particles. It's main role is that it indicates the presence of the Higgs Field, which seems to give mass to certain particles. Have the Vedas mentioned that?

Also, the God Particle is a misnomer. Leon Lederman, who coined the term wanted to call the particle the "Goddamn Particle", but it was changed due to the interference of his editor.

Yet another claim that is not consistent with actual science. It is practically the ancient and bogus idea of the Great Chain of Being, which is at direct odds at the modern understanding of Evolution as a nonlinear process where the humans are definitely not the end result.

Yoga, like all exercise has health benefits. And controlled breathing having effects on the vascular system is also well-known, but much of the medical effects claimed by its practitioners, like that you can use it to cure cancer, is absurd.

Also, if the people who wrote the Vedas were so medically literate, how come the germ theory of disease completely eluded them?

This is an extremely broad topic that is not in any ways unique to the Vedas

That's absolute hokum. There is absolutely no mechanised flight in the Vedas, and I challenge you to prove me wrong with a direct quote from the text.

1)People usually draw inspiration usually from something they consider to be true and inspiring either emotionally or mentally.Vedas were designed or created to inspire intelligence and knowledge.

2)Regarding fire,if by your statement it is basic knowledge to know how to make a fire then probably the culture you mentioned did know it and refrained from using it.If it is so commonplace even caused by ocassional thunderstorms etc then why would these people be unaware of it.And what does it prove anyway?You can take the entire humanbity to be xyz years old and hence be the oldest surviving culture.

3)The entire science of Astrophysics is perpetually in a state of debate,i am just trying to draw a parallel between modern scientific theories and concepts in the Vedas.If a few fundamental concepts of a modern theory have a close parrallel of certain concepts in the Vedas then mentioning them is not cherrypicking.For Eg -Very few ancient religions talk of countless multiple universes which is an abstract concept and is a sign of advance intellect by itself.

4)The Higgs boson is also called the 'God particle' since it is to be found in all matter and the cause of imparting mass to matter and all other sub atomic particles.The Veda mentions that Nirguna Brhman or a eternal vibration without specific qualities that can be equated to 'God' is manifest throughout the universe and that is what connects everything hence the reason for Hindu's being pantheistic(i.e-God is manifest in everything not to be confused with God made everything).I beleive the concept of God being manifest in everything underlines a unity it at some level in everything and has a parallel with the implications of recently discovered Higgs Boson.(It is a personal choice to use this new discovery to 'Damn God' or to Acknowledge God)

5)Let me tell you that modern postulates of Evolution are based on stupid fallacious assumptions without empirical experimentation to back them,they are a bunch of wild hypothesis.I am not trying to validate the Evolutionary science of today but just trying to point out a few parallels with the knowledge in the Vedas and in this case Puranas,the Dashavatars of Vishnu are not necessarily indicating a linear progression of Evolution but highlighting what sort of life forms came in what order which i think is still considered to be valid by modern evolutionist.

6)Importance of physical excercise and breathing techniques are relatively recent in western medicine as compared to the practice of Yoga and Pranayama which have a huge lead.Also causes and cures for Cancer are much debateable in western medicine as well so one should not be too quick in dismissing the beneficial effects that aid in curing cancer.Breathing techniques like Pranayam not only have physical benefits but also benefit the mental well being and body rythms which is a fact that was recognized fairly recently in western science and was well known by Ancient Indians.

The germ theory did not elude them but they never considered it to be a point of focus,they believed that each individual had a body type and the human body is able to resist most of the diseases by itself when conditioned and maintained optimally and hence they focussed on a healthy and disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters combined to battle any diseases i.e they focussed more on 'prevention' then on 'cure'.(concepts of asepsis,hygeine,disciplined lifestyle are well described in Ayurveda).

7)'Karma' a detailed philosophy of cause and effect is first attested in the Vedas and subsequent hindu literature like 'Bhagvad Gita' .'Karma' being good or bad are independant of divine instructions since there are very few in the Vedas and hence can be called an abstract concept since even Gods were subject to laws of 'Karma' hence it was considered to be a universal concept independant of Godhood..The evolution of modern 'cause and effect' philosophy/science independant of divine instructions is again a relatively recent concept in western philosophy/science.

8)Regarding mechanised flight in the vedas(source wiki) :

The predecessors of the flying vimanas of the Sanskrit epics are the flying chariots employed by various gods in the Vedas: the Sun (see Sun chariot) and Indra and several other Vedic deities are transported by flying wheeled chariots pulled by animals, usually horses (but the Vedic god Pūsan's chariot is pulled by goats, as is that of Norse Thor).

The Rigveda does not mention Vimanas, but verses RV 1.164.47-48 have been taken as evidence for the idea of "mechanical birds": 47. kṛṣṇáṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ / apó vásānā dívam út patanti tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd / íd ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate 48. dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ / trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo / 'rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ "Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters. Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness." "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Though mechanical flight was descirbed more often and in better detail in other scriptures as i mentioned.

9) Regarding the age of Vedic culture and Vedas pre 2000 b.c..You can read the subsequent link which gives good info on the same and is also a published and peer reviewed article:

http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/rie.pdf (title-a new date for the Rigveda)

http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/IIR.pdf (Out of India theory and the fallacies of Ayan invasion/migration along with relevant attestations of the age of the Vedas)

http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/Final%20Reply.pdf (The objections from invasionists/migration proponents refuted and addressed)

Incase you didn't go through the articles above:

1)Archeo astronomy suggests Vedas and other hindu literature to be much older then previously thought

2)Descriptions of a river Saraswati which started dwindling around 4000 b.c in the Rig Veda when it was still a river flowing in full force.

3)Cultural continuity from before the Indus Valley Civilisation to present day India is well attested by Archeologist hence the Vedas had to be older then the IVC.

These and many other reasons compel us to date the Rig Veda to be oway older then 2000 b.c.(The date you suggest is probably when the Vedas were put down in script,oral transmission or 'Smriti' was the favoured mode of propogation until very recently.)

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The string theory originally postulated 10 dimensions and are contemplating an 11th to explain a few more anamolies.I am talking about drawing a basic parallel.I have some idea about the string theory and i can understand it in a working fashion.

It's 10 physical dimensions and one time dimension, in one version.

There are others that include more than one time dimension.

I like Dr.Pepper.

Me too, but the diet one sucks.

Harte

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1)People usually draw inspiration usually from something they consider to be true and inspiring either emotionally or mentally.Vedas were designed or created to inspire intelligence and knowledge.

People draw inspiration from Star Wars, porn, funny cat pictures, music and many many other things. Newton was inspired by an apple. Does that say anything about the amazing qualities of that apple? No.

2)Regarding fire,if by your statement it is basic knowledge to know how to make a fire then probably the culture you mentioned did know it and refrained from using it.If it is so commonplace even caused by ocassional thunderstorms etc then why would these people be unaware of it.And what does it prove anyway?You can take the entire humanbity to be xyz years old and hence be the oldest surviving culture.

You were the one who jumped onto the fire thing. It is a fact that these people can't make fire, which is extremely rare among mankind. They are also genetically ancient, live in prehistoric conditions and haven't been contacted since time immemorial. If any, they are a great candidate for a culture that's older than the vast majority of others in the world.

3)The entire science of Astrophysics is perpetually in a state of debate,i am just trying to draw a parallel between modern scientific theories and concepts in the Vedas.If a few fundamental concepts of a modern theory have a close parrallel of certain concepts in the Vedas then mentioning them is not cherrypicking.For Eg -Very few ancient religions talk of countless multiple universes which is an abstract concept and is a sign of advance intellect by itself..

String Theory is not Astrophysics. And yes, if you pick a very broad interpretation of two aspects of an immensely complex theory, than that is the definition of cherry picking.

A lot of ancient religions talk about multiple worlds. The Old Norse, for example, have nine of them. A huge number of religions have three parallel worlds.

Wait, advance intellect? You are avare that intelligence is not culturally or ethnically predetermined, no? Though with your previous statements full of supremacist rhetoric, I wouldn't be so sure...

4)The Higgs boson is also called the 'God particle' since it is to be found in all matter and the cause of imparting mass to matter and all other sub atomic particles.The Veda mentions that Nirguna Brhman or a eternal vibration without specific qualities that can be equated to 'God' is manifest throughout the universe and that is what connects everything hence the reason for Hindu's being pantheistic(i.e-God is manifest in everything not to be confused with God made everything).I beleive the concept of God being manifest in everything underlines a unity it at some level in everything and has a parallel with the implications of recently discovered Higgs Boson.(It is a personal choice to use this new discovery to 'Damn God' or to Acknowledge God)

No. The Higgs boson is called the God Particle, because it couldn't be called the "Goddamn Particle". That's it. There's nothing more more Lederman wanted to give it the name because it has proven so hard and expensive to find and because it's a general pain in the **** for physicists trying to prove its existence. It is one of many particles that permeate the whole univers. If in your mind, God is the simplest explanation for how the electroweak symmetry gets broken, that's fine, just don't say that the Vedas talk about the Higgs boson or quantum field theory, because that's just not true. "Something is everywhere" is a vague claim that can be applied to just about anything. I could say that the world is made up of minute little quivering hamsters, even that would fit what the Vedas are saying.

5)Let me tell you that modern postulates of Evolution are based on stupid fallacious assumptions without empirical experimentation to back them,they are a bunch of wild hypothesis.I am not trying to validate the Evolutionary science of today but just trying to point out a few parallels with the knowledge in the Vedas and in this case Puranas,the Dashavatars of Vishnu are not necessarily indicating a linear progression of Evolution but highlighting what sort of life forms came in what order which i think is still considered to be valid by modern evolutionist.

I'm not going to get into yet another pointless argument about how you have no idea what evolutionary theory is. But yet again, you are acting like a person who says that a grey car and a rhino are practically the same if both are out of focus.

But no, I can't let one thing slide: no sane modern evolutionary biologist says that there was any order in evolution.

6)Importance of physical excercise and breathing techniques are relatively recent in western medicine as compared to the practice of Yoga and Pranayama which have a huge lead.Also causes and cures for Cancer are much debateable in western medicine as well so one should not be too quick in dismissing the beneficial effects that aid in curing cancer.Breathing techniques like Pranayam not only have physical benefits but also benefit the mental well being and body rythms which is a fact that was recognized fairly recently in western science and was well known by Ancient Indians.

No, they aren't. People have always known that exercise leads to health. And, I can easily dismiss Eastern mysticism curing cancer, since no respectable clinical trials have shown that it is possible.

The germ theory did not elude them but they never considered it to be a point of focus,they believed that each individual had a body type and the human body is able to resist most of the diseases by itself when conditioned and maintained optimally and hence they focussed on a healthy and disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters combined to battle any diseases i.e they focussed more on 'prevention' then on 'cure'.(concepts of asepsis,hygeine,disciplined lifestyle are well described in Ayurveda).

So, you don't need to know what causes a disease to cure it. That makes perfect sense! You don't need to know how diseases spread, how infection works, etc.

That's why the average life expectancy has been growing exponentially since the introduction of Western medicine. That's why in India, many people still don't give names to their children until they are one years old, because traditional medicine works so well. Do you have any idea about medicine. Immunity boosters? You can't boost the immune system, that's medicine 101. A boosted immune system is called an autoimmune disease, and that's a serious a health risk.

There's a reason why Ayurveda, alongside practically all of Traditional Eastern Medicine is considered as "alternative medicine". if it worked, it would be called "medicine" and Western doctors and companies would make a lot of money using it.

7)'Karma' a detailed philosophy of cause and effect is first attested in the Vedas and subsequent hindu literature like 'Bhagvad Gita' .'Karma' being good or bad are independant of divine instructions since there are very few in the Vedas and hence can be called an abstract concept since even Gods were subject to laws of 'Karma' hence it was considered to be a universal concept independant of Godhood..The evolution of modern 'cause and effect' philosophy/science independant of divine instructions is again a relatively recent concept in western philosophy/science.

So recent that even Aristotle, the founding father of Western science and philosophy wrote about it. Yeah...

8)Regarding mechanised flight in the vedas(source wiki) :

The predecessors of the flying vimanas of the Sanskrit epics are the flying chariots employed by various gods in the Vedas: the Sun (see Sun chariot) and Indra and several other Vedic deities are transported by flying wheeled chariots pulled by animals, usually horses (but the Vedic god Pūsan's chariot is pulled by goats, as is that of Norse Thor).

The Rigveda does not mention Vimanas, but verses RV 1.164.47-48 have been taken as evidence for the idea of "mechanical birds": 47. kṛṣṇáṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ / apó vásānā dívam út patanti tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd / íd ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate 48. dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ / trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo / 'rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ "Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters. Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness." "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Though mechanical flight was descirbed more often and in better detail in other scriptures as i mentioned.

And where's mechanical flight in that. Did I miss anything, the last time I flew from Qatar to Budapest, I did not see any horses or goats pulling my chariot (were they deployed sometime after I boarded the plane? Then what are those big engines for?). Nor did I travel in a golden bird with three naves and one wheel. You can't be serious in stating that this has anything to do with any real-life flying machine.

9) Regarding the age of Vedic culture and Vedas pre 2000 b.c..You can read the subsequent link which gives good info on the same and is also a published and peer reviewed article:

http://www.omilosmel....gr/pdf/rie.pdf (title-a new date for the Rigveda)

http://www.omilosmel...ndology/IIR.pdf (Out of India theory and the fallacies of Ayan invasion/migration along with relevant attestations of the age of the Vedas)

http://www.omilosmel...Final Reply.pdf (The objections from invasionists/migration proponents refuted and addressed)

Incase you didn't go through the articles above:

1)Archeo astronomy suggests Vedas and other hindu literature to be much older then previously thought

2)Descriptions of a river Saraswati which started dwindling around 4000 b.c in the Rig Veda when it was still a river flowing in full force.

3)Cultural continuity from before the Indus Valley Civilisation to present day India is well attested by Archeologist hence the Vedas had to be older then the IVC.

These and many other reasons compel us to date the Rig Veda to be oway older then 2000 b.c.(The date you suggest is probably when the Vedas were put down in script,oral transmission or 'Smriti' was the favoured mode of propogation until very recently.)

I am not sure about these papers. I studied and practiced quite a bit of academic writing, and these wouldn't be accepted at any university or publisher, simply for stylistic reasons. This guy has no idea how to write a paper, and that's a huge red flag. Then there's this "I'm the only voice of reason and all these other researchers are wrong", which is also a red flag. Then there is this thing about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, and the theorised flow of a yet unidentified river is not quite extraordinary evidence.

But let's say that he's right. He puts the Vedas to maximum 7000 years old. That's still tens of thousands of years younger than Australian Aboriginal culture, so Indo-Aryans are stil not the oldest culture in the world.

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People draw inspiration from Star Wars, porn, funny cat pictures, music and many many other things. Newton was inspired by an apple. Does that say anything about the amazing qualities of that apple? No.

You were the one who jumped onto the fire thing. It is a fact that these people can't make fire, which is extremely rare among mankind. They are also genetically ancient, live in prehistoric conditions and haven't been contacted since time immemorial. If any, they are a great candidate for a culture that's older than the vast majority of others in the world.

String Theory is not Astrophysics. And yes, if you pick a very broad interpretation of two aspects of an immensely complex theory, than that is the definition of cherry picking.

A lot of ancient religions talk about multiple worlds. The Old Norse, for example, have nine of them. A huge number of religions have three parallel worlds.

Wait, advance intellect? You are avare that intelligence is not culturally or ethnically predetermined, no? Though with your previous statements full of supremacist rhetoric, I wouldn't be so sure...

No. The Higgs boson is called the God Particle, because it couldn't be called the "Goddamn Particle". That's it. There's nothing more more Lederman wanted to give it the name because it has proven so hard and expensive to find and because it's a general pain in the **** for physicists trying to prove its existence. It is one of many particles that permeate the whole univers. If in your mind, God is the simplest explanation for how the electroweak symmetry gets broken, that's fine, just don't say that the Vedas talk about the Higgs boson or quantum field theory, because that's just not true. "Something is everywhere" is a vague claim that can be applied to just about anything. I could say that the world is made up of minute little quivering hamsters, even that would fit what the Vedas are saying.

I'm not going to get into yet another pointless argument about how you have no idea what evolutionary theory is. But yet again, you are acting like a person who says that a grey car and a rhino are practically the same if both are out of focus.

But no, I can't let one thing slide: no sane modern evolutionary biologist says that there was any order in evolution.

No, they aren't. People have always known that exercise leads to health. And, I can easily dismiss Eastern mysticism curing cancer, since no respectable clinical trials have shown that it is possible.

So, you don't need to know what causes a disease to cure it. That makes perfect sense! You don't need to know how diseases spread, how infection works, etc.

That's why the average life expectancy has been growing exponentially since the introduction of Western medicine. That's why in India, many people still don't give names to their children until they are one years old, because traditional medicine works so well. Do you have any idea about medicine. Immunity boosters? You can't boost the immune system, that's medicine 101. A boosted immune system is called an autoimmune disease, and that's a serious a health risk.

There's a reason why Ayurveda, alongside practically all of Traditional Eastern Medicine is considered as "alternative medicine". if it worked, it would be called "medicine" and Western doctors and companies would make a lot of money using it.

So recent that even Aristotle, the founding father of Western science and philosophy wrote about it. Yeah...

And where's mechanical flight in that. Did I miss anything, the last time I flew from Qatar to Budapest, I did not see any horses or goats pulling my chariot (were they deployed sometime after I boarded the plane? Then what are those big engines for?). Nor did I travel in a golden bird with three naves and one wheel. You can't be serious in stating that this has anything to do with any real-life flying machine.

I am not sure about these papers. I studied and practiced quite a bit of academic writing, and these wouldn't be accepted at any university or publisher, simply for stylistic reasons. This guy has no idea how to write a paper, and that's a huge red flag. Then there's this "I'm the only voice of reason and all these other researchers are wrong", which is also a red flag. Then there is this thing about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, and the theorised flow of a yet unidentified river is not quite extraordinary evidence.

But let's say that he's right. He puts the Vedas to maximum 7000 years old. That's still tens of thousands of years younger than Australian Aboriginal culture, so Indo-Aryans are stil not the oldest culture in the world.

1)Source of inspiration:

People also draw inspiration from great scientist,great sources of knowledge,great philosophys and factual knowledge.Though i like the Star Wars comparison.There is no point debating the sources of inspiration,as it is a subjective matter but i would definitely believe that Scientists and Thinkers will probably draw inspiration from what they consider good concepts and interesting theories that would help them persue or excel in their respective feilds.And an Apple is a great fruit.

In your description you have probably highlighted the reason why the ancient Rishis reached the conclusion that God is manifest in everything and hence anything can be a source for inspiration.

2)People who don't know how to make fire:

I think there is no point discussing this as it hardly impacts the topic.Like i said that you can consider the whole humanity as an ancient culture from the time man was created/evolved.How can genetics attest how old a culture is?It can only give you a relative idea of when the population stopped interacting with other populations and you will still be clueless that what was the culture they followed or belonged to before they were isolated or after they were isolated.You can only comment on their present cultural habits.You might find people living in a Bombay slum to be prehistoric.

3)String theory and astrophysics:

I never claimed string theory is astrophysics but it's main purpose was to address questions about the universe and matter,You can make a theory as complex as you wan't it to be,my attempt to draw parrallels was at the conclusion level of the theory and not all the theorising.

4)Multiple worlds in different relegions:

If you mean that the concept of heaven,hell and the current world we live is an attestation to believing in parallel universes then i don't follow suite.But a part of my interest is in drawing parrallels between different relegious beliefs of different cultures and trying to determine which idea and concept originated where.Most of the instances that you mentioned were of different worlds and not parrallel universes.

5)Supremacist rhetoric:

Is often the the bread and butter of earlier European academics.And yes i said advance intelligence and thought process in the ancient Indians and it is a statement that you probably can't refute as it currently has global attestation.Spirituality and Philosophy are also signs of Advance intellect.Ancient Indians were not about a ethnic community but an assortment of many ethnic communities all ascribing to the same culture.If you praise ancient greeek scholar or culture does that make you an European supremacist?And intelligence reflects in the culture and ethics of a community (not necessarily in form of monuments etc).Sadly there was no internet at that time and certain intellectual concepts originated and were popular in certain geographic population and there is no supremacist rhetoric in stating that.

6)Higgs Boson:

You continous assertation that Higgs boson is one of many particles in the universe is well recieved but i only stated that it is the fundametal present in all matter (correct me if i am wrong).

The Higgs boson or Higgs particle is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics. The Higgs boson is predicted to exist for theoretical reasons, and may have been detected by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider. If confirmed, this detection would prove the existence of the hypotheticalHiggs field—the simplest[4] of several proposed mechanisms for the breaking of electroweak symmetry, and the means by which elementary particles acquiremass.[Note 3] The leading explanation is that a field exists that has non-zero strength everywhere—even in otherwise empty space—and that particles acquire mass when interacting with this so-called Higgs field. If this theory is true, a matching particle—the smallest possible excitation of the Higgs field—should also exist and be detectable, providing a crucial test of the theory. Consequently, it has been the target of a long search in particle physics.

Now the Vedas dont call it a Higgs Boson but they call it Brhman so you are right about Higgs Boson not originating in the Vedas,but there is striking similarities in the concept of Brhman i.e it is manifest in all matter and and without any specific physical qualities in itself. You can read up more on the concept of 'Brhman' and the similarities between the implications of Higgs Boson and Brhman will be evident to you if you think without prejudice.The vedic Rishi reached the conclusion that there had to be an underlying principle (you can call it the Higgs feild etc) "manifest" in all matter and made this a part of the Vedas.The Rishi called this underlying principle Brhman and acknowledged it as God.It might be easy for you in the present age with the knowledge of sub atomic particles to generalise that something being 'manifest' in everything is a simple statement but acheiving such a concept in such antiquity is a great feat.

7)Theory of evolution:

Since you have stated that you ascribe to the serious evolutionist thought process can you please tell me that do serious evolutionists think that Mammals,Aves,Amphibians,Fishes and Reptiles all evolved together?Or do they think there was a progression?You can claim according to the theory of evolution that there is no order in evolution but i am talking about practical observations.And i and many others are smart enough to spot paradolia.

8)Excerxise:

The concept of excercise evolved in modern history after sufficient technology was incorporated into our lifestyles to create the need for 'excercise'.For quite sometime it was believed that physical excersion causes decrease in longeivity.Though Yoga cannot be simply described as random physical excercise.The way you talk makes me feel that you cannot contemplate how concepts that seem simple to you have come down through history.In no other ancient culture a disciplined way of physical and mental excercise like 'Yoga' has been given so much importance or elaboration.

9)Disease:

It is not a question of knowing how a disease spreads or how an infection occur and probably the AI knew about it.They chose to focus on preventing such disease from spreading giving importance to preventing such disease in the first place by using principles of hygeine,disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters and understanding indiviual body type and tendencies.You are highlighting shortfalls in their way of medicine which was developed as per the requirement of their population density and lifestyle with the requirements of modern population densities and lifestyle.Average life expectancy has not increased only because of western medicine but many other technological innovations,i don't have a bone to pick with western medicine and i don't believe it to be a bad science.I have a very good idea about immunity boosters and i am surprised you would equate it with autoimmunedisorder (hyperactive immune system) where the body tissue is recognised as foreign and attacked by own body cells.Augmenting a suppressed immunity system is also considered boosting it,infectious disease is often caused due to a deficiency in the immune system and hence correcting the deficiency is also boosting the immune system.Interesting view you have regarding naming of children in India but i will leave it at that.

Many Ayurvedic medicine have been acknowledged and studied to be effective and have been patented and used by western doctors but not prescribed as a allopathic medicine so this is a non-issue.And if western medicine recognises effectivity of ayurveda a lot of people will also end up losing a lot of money.This article gives a good comparison between the two systems:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Ayurveda---The-Allure-of-Ayurvedic-Medicine-in-the-Western-World&id=6946405

I hope you are not alien to the concept of 'Preventive Medicine'.In either scenario having such a detailed medical system including surgeries at such ancient times is what i wanted to highlight.The reason for calling a system to be 'alternate' can be many and not necessarily a statement on it's effectivity.

10)Curing cancer:

Even western medicine recognises now that cancer cannot be only cured by external chemical agents but depends a lot on the body's own healing capabilities and also the mental strength of the patient.The cause and cures of cancer though accepted by mainstream or not is still a subject of huge debate.If the persons body is not capable of coping with chemo or radiation then the treatment itself can result in death.Ayurveda focuses on augmenting this healing capability of the body and mind.Ayurveda is an objective appraoch to disease and not eastern mysticism,you can read up on the diagnosis format of Ayurveda.(Eastern mysticism?? smacks of western supremacist notion).There is no parallel in western medicine which accounts for augmenting self healing capabilities of the body and the involvement of mental strength,western medicine begins only with the onset of disease (other then vaccincation ofcourse).

11)Aristotle:

Aristotle-300-400 B.C.

Bhagvad Gita-Atleast beyond 800 B.C by western historians and Aryan invasion/migration proponents.(suspected to be around 3067 B.C. by modern insights and research).

I would like to elaborate more but nevermind,though you can highlight the great contibutions of Aristotle and i can give you the Vedic counterpart.

12)Mechanical flight is a concept which is common between the Vedas and Puranas and modern day flight.You asked for a verse a direct quotation so i gave it to you.Whats your take on 'Horse Power' does it signify the no. of horses packed in the engine?

13)Style of paper writing:

The links of the papers i gave have been published in the JIES after being reviewed by six referees who are considered to be the word on migration theories etc so i suppose your standards are higher then them for allowing a paper to be published.I usually and i suppose most people who have a rational outlook will probably focus on the content and not writing style.All subjects of academic discussions do not follow a dry non-assertive format especially when related to language studies and history etc.The date of 7000 B.C. is the oldest attested date by him and not an absolute date.I am still confused on how you have arrived on your conclusions on the dating of Aboriginal culture and which elements of their culture do you date to be beyond 7000 B.C?(not talking about the age of the population).Please highlight some thought provoking elements of Aboriginal culture which you think are older then 7000 B.C and can be confirmed by atleast the information they provide about themselves their surroundings etc.

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2)People who don't know how to make fire:

I think there is no point discussing this as it hardly impacts the topic.Like i said that you can consider the whole humanity as an ancient culture from the time man was created/evolved.How can genetics attest how old a culture is?It can only give you a relative idea of when the population stopped interacting with other populations and you will still be clueless that what was the culture they followed or belonged to before they were isolated or after they were isolated.You can only comment on their present cultural habits.You might find people living in a Bombay slum to be prehistoric.

Genetics can tell a lot about human populations. We know that the Andamanese are the only people in India who did not mix with Northern Indians. They are "pure" descendants of the Ancient South Indians, therefore they represent a more ancient population group. The Sentinelese a subgroup of the Andamanese people, who had no contact with the outside since time immemorial, therefore their culture must be the best-preserved from these already ancient populations. Their culture obviously changed over time, but so did Indo-Aryan culture.

You might find people living in a Bombay slum to be prehistoric.

Oh, don't be ridiculous. Have you ever been to any slum in your life? I personally visited seven of them in Chennai and also went to a gipsy community outside Pondicherry.There is nothing prehistoric about these communities, they are thoroughly modern in every sense of the word.

3)String theory and astrophysics:

I never claimed string theory is astrophysics but it's main purpose was to address questions about the universe and matter,You can make a theory as complex as you wan't it to be,my attempt to draw parrallels was at the conclusion level of the theory and not all the theorising.

Yes you did and no, you are making parallels based on very superficial notions.

4)Multiple worlds in different relegions:

If you mean that the concept of heaven,hell and the current world we live is an attestation to believing in parallel universes then i don't follow suite.But a part of my interest is in drawing parrallels between different relegious beliefs of different cultures and trying to determine which idea and concept originated where.Most of the instances that you mentioned were of different worlds and not parrallel universes.

Parallel worlds and parallel universes are the same, it's a question of rhetorics. Please read into the nine worlds of the Norse, they are far from being a simplistic heaven/hell. Then there's the Gaelic notions of Tír na nÓg and a parallel existence of the Milesians and the Tuatha De Danann.

5)Supremacist rhetoric:

Is often the the bread and butter of earlier European academics.And yes i said advance intelligence and thought process in the ancient Indians and it is a statement that you probably can't refute as it currently has global attestation.Spirituality and Philosophy are also signs of Advance intellect.Ancient Indians were not about a ethnic community but an assortment of many ethnic communities all ascribing to the same culture.If you praise ancient greeek scholar or culture does that make you an European supremacist?And intelligence reflects in the culture and ethics of a community (not necessarily in form of monuments etc).Sadly there was no internet at that time and certain intellectual concepts originated and were popular in certain geographic population and there is no supremacist rhetoric in stating that.

Once you claim that some peoples have an "advance intellect", then you also postulate that some don't. That's supremacism, fair and square.

6)Higgs Boson:

You continous assertation that Higgs boson is one of many particles in the universe is well recieved but i only stated that it is the fundametal present in all matter (correct me if i am wrong).

Well, for one, the universe is not only made up of matter, there is also antimatter. Also, the Higgs boson is only one of the many elementary particles that include, among others, gauge bosons, elementary fermions, quarks, etc. They are all present almost everywhere. The Higgs is not unique.

Now the Vedas dont call it a Higgs Boson but they call it Brhman so you are right about Higgs Boson not originating in the Vedas,but there is striking similarities in the concept of Brhman i.e it is manifest in all matter and and without any specific physical qualities in itself. You can read up more on the concept of 'Brhman' and the similarities between the implications of Higgs Boson and Brhman will be evident to you if you think without prejudice.The vedic Rishi reached the conclusion that there had to be an underlying principle (you can call it the Higgs feild etc) "manifest" in all matter and made this a part of the Vedas.The Rishi called this underlying principle Brhman and acknowledged it as God.It might be easy for you in the present age with the knowledge of sub atomic particles to generalise that something being 'manifest' in everything is a simple statement but acheiving such a concept in such antiquity is a great feat.

Please stop saying that a car is a helicopter just because both have wheels. You pick a very basic feature, that the Brhman and the Higgs Boson are everywhere and try to make grand conclusions out of this superficial similarity.

7)Theory of evolution:

Since you have stated that you ascribe to the serious evolutionist thought process can you please tell me that do serious evolutionists think that Mammals,Aves,Amphibians,Fishes and Reptiles all evolved together?Or do they think there was a progression?You can claim according to the theory of evolution that there is no order in evolution but i am talking about practical observations.And i and many others are smart enough to spot paradolia.

As I've said, I won't discuss evolution with you, as you have demonstrated in many previous threads that your biases and lack of understanding of fundamental principles makes it impossible to have an intelligent debate with you on the subject.

But yes, all present life forms evolved together, side by side. Some groups appeared earlier, some later, some branched off, some died out. But the notion of progress is alien to modern evolutionary theory.

8)Excerxise:

The concept of excercise evolved in modern history after sufficient technology was incorporated into our lifestyles to create the need for 'excercise'.For quite sometime it was believed that physical excersion causes decrease in longeivity.[citation needed] Though Yoga cannot be simply described as random physical excercise.The way you talk makes me feel that you cannot contemplate how concepts that seem simple to you have come down through history.In no other ancient culture a disciplined way of physical and mental excercise like 'Yoga' has been given so much importance or elaboration [citation needed].

9)Disease:

It is not a question of knowing how a disease spreads or how an infection occur and probably the AI knew about it [citation needed].They chose to focus on preventing such disease from spreading giving importance to preventing such disease in the first place by using principles of hygeine,disciplined lifestyle and immunity boosters and understanding indiviual body type and tendencies.You are highlighting shortfalls in their way of medicine which was developed as per the requirement of their population density and lifestyle with the requirements of modern population densities and lifestyle.Average life expectancy has not increased only because of western medicine but many other technological innovations,i don't have a bone to pick with western medicine and i don't believe it to be a bad science.I have a very good idea about immunity boosters and i am surprised you would equate it with autoimmunedisorder (hyperactive immune system) where the body tissue is recognised as foreign and attacked by own body cells.Augmenting a suppressed immunity system is also considered boosting it,infectious disease is often caused due to a deficiency in the immune system and hence correcting the deficiency is also boosting the immune system.

Here's a nice article, written by an infectious disease specialist with decades of experience about "boosting" the immune system. i think he might know a little bit more about the subject than you.

Interesting view you have regarding naming of children in India but i will leave it at that.

It's not my view. It's the view of the academics at the Department of Anthropology at the University of Madras and the slum dwellers I talked to. And no, don't leave it. Why is this still around, if traditional Indian medicine was so effective?

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Many Ayurvedic medicine have been acknowledged and studied to be effective and have been patented and used by western doctors but not prescribed as a allopathic medicine so this is a non-issue.And if western medicine recognises effectivity of ayurveda a lot of people will also end up losing a lot of money.This article gives a good comparison between the two systems:

http://ezinearticles...orld&id=6946405

I hope you are not alien to the concept of 'Preventive Medicine'.In either scenario having such a detailed medical system including surgeries at such ancient times is what i wanted to highlight.The reason for calling a system to be 'alternate' can be many and not necessarily a statement on it's effectivity.

Here's another article, by another actually doctor that thoroughly deconstructs Ayurveda as more or less pure quackery.

10)Curing cancer:

Even western medicine recognises now that cancer cannot be only cured by external chemical agents but depends a lot on the body's own healing capabilities and also the mental strength of the patient.The cause and cures of cancer though accepted by mainstream or not is still a subject of huge debate.If the persons body is not capable of coping with chemo or radiation then the treatment itself can result in death.Ayurveda focuses on augmenting this healing capability of the body and mind.Ayurveda is an objective appraoch to disease and not eastern mysticism,you can read up on the diagnosis format of Ayurveda.(Eastern mysticism?? smacks of western supremacist notion).There is no parallel in western medicine which accounts for augmenting self healing capabilities of the body and the involvement of mental strength,western medicine begins only with the onset of disease (other then vaccincation ofcourse).

Yet another article by a doctor, detailing what happens when cancer patients choose alternative medicine over science-based medicine.

And no, labelling Eastern mysticism as Eastern mysticism is not supremacist, especially if it is about mysticism that comes from the East. If it came from the West, like homeopathy, I would call it Western mysticism.

11)Aristotle:

Aristotle-300-400 B.C.

Bhagvad Gita-Atleast beyond 800 B.C by western historians and Aryan invasion/migration proponents.(suspected to be around 3067 B.C. by modern insights and research).

I would like to elaborate more but nevermind,though you can highlight the great contibutions of Aristotle and i can give you the Vedic counterpart.

Yes. Because these ideas emerged independently from each other in different places. That's the whole point.

12)Mechanical flight is a concept which is common between the Vedas and Puranas and modern day flight.You asked for a verse a direct quotation so i gave it to you.Whats your take on 'Horse Power' does it signify the no. of horses packed in the engine?

I asked for a direct quotation that details mechanical flight. You gave me a direct quotation about goat-drawn flying carts that have no semblance to any understanding of mechanical flights whatsoever. You can't be serious.

And horsepower is just a name, it has nothing to do with horses in the 21st century. It was invented by Watt, to serve as an easy to understand comparison between steam power and its competitor, horse power. It's not like an explicit description that tiny little horses run around and around an engine and that makes planes fly.

13)Style of paper writing:

The links of the papers i gave have been published in the JIES after being reviewed by six referees who are considered to be the word on migration theories etc so i suppose your standards are higher then them for allowing a paper to be published.I usually and i suppose most people who have a rational outlook will probably focus on the content and not writing style.All subjects of academic discussions do not follow a dry non-assertive format especially when related to language studies and history etc.The date of 7000 B.C. is the oldest attested date by him and not an absolute date.I am still confused on how you have arrived on your conclusions on the dating of Aboriginal culture and which elements of their culture do you date to be beyond 7000 B.C?(not talking about the age of the population).Please highlight some thought provoking elements of Aboriginal culture which you think are older then 7000 B.C and can be confirmed by atleast the information they provide about themselves their surroundings etc.

The writing style is very important when it comes to academics. At the English Department of my University, these papers would be thrown out of any first-year course. Furthermore, I can not find any connection between Omilios Melton and the JIES and I can't take your word for that for obvious reasons.

And as far as Australians go, for example, the rock art at Ubirr in the Kakadu National Park has been continuously expanded for 40.000 years. The Aboriginal people living in the area still paint there, still revere the site and still understand the images. That's continuous culture for you. How many people in India can still read the Vedas?

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Since we have digressed from the topic i wish not to elaborate but can't leave a few things you have stated unreplied.

1)'Pure descendants of ancient south indians'........can give you an idea of what their culture was before they were isolated and probably lost large chunks of their actual culture,North indians and south indians indicate the Geography of the Indian population and nothing else.

Genetic anthropology

Main article: Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia

Genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. Classical anthropologists, such as Carleton S. Coon in his 1939 work The Races of Europe, argued that Ethiopia in Northeast Africa and India in South Asia represented the outermost peripheries of the Caucasoid race. In the 1960s, genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered the entirety of the Indian subcontinent to be a "race" genetically distinct from other populations.[13][14] The geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, classified Indians as being genetically Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza theorized that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians.[13] More recently, other geneticists, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, demonstrated that South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians.[15][16][17] Nevertheless, Indians are classified by modern anthropologists as belonging to one of four different morphological or ethno-racial subtypes, although these generally overlap because of admixture: Caucasoid (concentrated in the north), Mongoloid (concentrated in the north), Australoid (concentrated in the south), and Negrito (located in the Andaman Islands).[18][19]Dravidians are generally classified as members of the Proto-Australoid or Australoid race. [20][21][22] In one study, southern Indian Dravidians clustered genetically with Tamils, a socially endogamous, predominantly Dravidian-speaking Australoid group.[23]

While a number of earlier anthropologists held the view that the Dravidian people together were a distinct race, a small number of genetic studies based on uniparental markers have challenged this view. Some researchers have indicated that both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan speakers are indigenous to the Indian subcontinent; however, this point of view is rejected by most researchers in favor of Indo-Aryan migration, with racial stratification among Indian populations being distributed along caste lines.[24][25][26][27]

Because of admixture between Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Australoid racial groups, one cannot speak of a biologically separate "Dravidian race" distinct from non-Dravidians on the Indian subcontinent. In a 2009 study of 132 individuals, 560,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms in 25 different Indian groups were analyzed, providing strong evidence in support of the notion that modern Indians (both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian groups) are a hybrid population descending from two post-Neolithic, genetically divergent populations referred to as the 'Ancestral North Indians' and the 'Ancestral South Indians'. According to the study, Andamanese are an ASI-related group without ANI ancestry, showing that the peopling of the islands must have occurred before ANI-ASI gene flow on the mainland. [28] ANI-ASI admixture happened some 1,200-3,500 years ago, which roughly coincides with the Indo-Aryan conquest of the Indian subcontinent.[29][full citation needed]

There is no pure South Indian race or probably never was.There was never even an Indian race as genetic studies have shown that we are a admixture of many different so called races.The so called ancestral south Indian and ancestral north indians could have very well diverged from a common indian sub group and the Andamanese can be a sub sub group of the so called ancient south indians.In either scenario this has no real impact on what we are discussing,since unless you link here some written format or lore of the andamanese culture we can't comment on it to be older or newer.

2)You talk about Chennai when i talk about Bombay/Mumbai but nevermind.(Are you a Tamilian?).What i was trying to get across is that backwardness or lack of development is not necessarily a sign of being ancient or different.But it is good to know that the slum dwellers in Chennai are thouroughly modern,people in Mumbai slums residents usually come from small villages throughout India and are often backward and illiterate,some still live without bathrooms and electricity.

3)When i compare string theory with Vedic philosophy/Science i am not comparing on the core level i.e fundamentals.And i never said string theory is astrophysics you can check the previous posts.

4)Different worlds can be = different planets not necessarily parrallel universes.(I feel you know that)

5)I am only stating an observed fact that some ancient cultures were more advanced intellectually then others.We still have IQ tests don't we?Is it a supremacist practice?Is merit a supremacist concept?There is also another word called 'Intellectual Bigotry' i.e predetermined thoughts and beliefs to certain subjects without evaluating it objectively usually based on racial beliefs and cultural influences.

6)Again you educate regarding multiple sub-atomic particles which i never contested in the first place,I am particularly talking about Higg's Boson and it is present or 'Manifest' in all matter hence my comparison of it to 'Brhman'

7)The car and a helicopter both have an engine that runs on fuel.My comparison are based on basic concepts or ultimate conclusions and not the theorising like i mentioned before.The engine is the core around which both vehicles are designed to perform different functions.You can also point out a TV and a Fan seems different but both running on 'Electricity'.Without electricity there is no TV or fan.

8)You can read as many allopathic criticisms of ayurveda but i will like to surmise it in few words as i am against none of the systems and deeply believe that both systems are altruistic in intent:

Allopathy--->Side effects,Starts with the onset of disease,gives preference to artificially synthesized chemicals/drugs,doesn't give much important to mental state in treatment,is often based on choosing the leasser evil.

Ayurveda--->Herbal,No real side effects (use of heavy metals in a "few" concotions is being debated),focusses on prevention,takes into account physical,mental and physiological state in the process of healing.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/ayurveda/introduction.htm

The above link is a good overview on Ayurveda and it sure isn't 'Quackery' of any sort.Though there can be 'quacks' practicisng it but there are 'quacks' in western medicine too.

I am also posting the link below to put a few things into perspective regarding "allopathic" medicine.

http://www.webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

Regarding alternate medicine i would first be prudent in stating which form of medicine is alternative in nature i.e which has evolved fairly recently and provided an alternative and also would like to point out that the niche carved for various 'alternate' systems of medicine is not because everyone is happy with 'allopathy'.

9)Ideas are also borrowed and plagarised,intellectual property rights anyone?

10)Highlighting 'horsepower' was to point out how some words directly interpretted can be misleading even in the modern context.

11)The paper was published in JIES you can check for yourself.No need to believe anything i say on faith.The utility of writing i believe is in the clarity with which it can convey the intended message.You can have your strict formats and edits but i would not bother much with them unless they change or imapct the meaning.

12)How many people can still read the Vedas? as many as those who can read and wan't to read it,but it will be surely lesser then the number of people who can see pictures and understand them.Every Hindu knows about the Vedas doesn't necessarily read or byheart them though other epics like 'Mahabharata' and 'Ramayana' have more popular appeal.

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Since we have digressed from the topic i wish not to elaborate but can't leave a few things you have stated unreplied.

1)'Pure descendants of ancient south indians'........can give you an idea of what their culture was before they were isolated and probably lost large chunks of their actual culture,North indians and south indians indicate the Geography of the Indian population and nothing else.

There is nothing to indicate that these people's culture got isolated at some point and anything was lost. It is much more logical that they moved to the island at a less developed state, which got conserved through isolation.

There is no pure South Indian race or probably never was.There was never even an Indian race as genetic studies have shown that we are a admixture of many different so called races.The so called ancestral south Indian and ancestral north indians could have very well diverged from a common indian sub group and the Andamanese can be a sub sub group of the so called ancient south indians.In either scenario this has no real impact on what we are discussing,since unless you link here some written format or lore of the andamanese culture we can't comment on it to be older or newer.

Next time try looking further than Wikipedia

Here's a paper proving that the Andamanese are the only people in India with no traces Ancestral North Indian genes, and closest to the Ancestral South Indian state that existed before the Northerners arrived: http://genepath.med.harvard.edu/~reich/2009_Nature_Reich_India.pdf

Here's another paper, with genetic proof that the Andamanese are the unique descendants of the people who first colonised Southern Asia: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/IJHG/IJHG-03-0-000-000-2003-Web/IJHG-03-1-001-067-2003-Abst-PDF/IJHG-03-1-005-011-2003-Kashyap/IJHG-03-1-005-011-2003-Kashyap.pdf

And one more, further reinforcing my thesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC378623/

2)You talk about Chennai when i talk about Bombay/Mumbai but nevermind.(Are you a Tamilian?).What i was trying to get across is that backwardness or lack of development is not necessarily a sign of being ancient or different.But it is good to know that the slum dwellers in Chennai are thouroughly modern,people in Mumbai slums residents usually come from small villages throughout India and are often backward and illiterate,some still live without bathrooms and electricity.

Once again, you are talking about things you have no clue about. The slums, no matter their geographic locations in India, are very similar to each other, and don't show backwardness or lack of development, only deep poverty. They are the products of urbanisation processes and the people living in them are, by all means, modern, even if they lack basic amenities. You can't compare them with people living in truly prehistoric circumstances.

3)When i compare string theory with Vedic philosophy/Science i am not comparing on the core level i.e fundamentals.And i never said string theory is astrophysics you can check the previous posts.

Yes, you are comparing them on an extremely superficial level, which makes the comparison worthless.

4)Different worlds can be = different planets not necessarily parrallel universes.(I feel you know that)

They are not different planets in the examples I cited.

5)I am only stating an observed fact that some ancient cultures were more advanced intellectually then others.We still have IQ tests don't we?Is it a supremacist practice?Is merit a supremacist concept?There is also another word called 'Intellectual Bigotry' i.e predetermined thoughts and beliefs to certain subjects without evaluating it objectively usually based on racial beliefs and cultural influences.

Yes, there were cultures with more intellectual achievements then others. But that was not due to their intelligence, only their circumstances. You need a level of urbanisation and economic power for that, which depend on many environmental factors. But no culture ever possessed a more or less advanced intelligence.

And yes, IQ test exist, but are deeply flawed. You can't use the same test for all people, the tests have to be tailor-made for cultural and social groups, or else the results will not reflect reality.

6)Again you educate regarding multiple sub-atomic particles which i never contested in the first place,I am particularly talking about Higg's Boson and it is present or 'Manifest' in all matter hence my comparison of it to 'Brhman'

And I am pointing out that singling out one of the many particles that are present in all matter makes no sense.

How does Brhman deal with antimatter?

7)The car and a helicopter both have an engine that runs on fuel.My comparison are based on basic concepts or ultimate conclusions and not the theorising like i mentioned before.The engine is the core around which both vehicles are designed to perform different functions.You can also point out a TV and a Fan seems different but both running on 'Electricity'.Without electricity there is no TV or fan.

The engine of a helicopter and a car is completely different. Of course, if you view it from as far as possible, they'll seem the same, but they are not. But this only reflects, once again, the basic flaw of your argument. You can't compare things in such a superficial way, because this way, you can draw parallels between everything.

8)You can read as many allopathic criticisms of ayurveda but i will like to surmise it in few words as i am against none of the systems and deeply believe that both systems are altruistic in intent:

Allopathy--->Side effects,Starts with the onset of disease,gives preference to artificially synthesized chemicals/drugs,doesn't give much important to mental state in treatment,is often based on choosing the leasser evil.

Ayurveda--->Herbal,No real side effects (use of heavy metals in a "few" concotions is being debated),focusses on prevention,takes into account physical,mental and physiological state in the process of healing.

http://nccam.nih.gov...ntroduction.htm

The above link is a good overview on Ayurveda and it sure isn't 'Quackery' of any sort.Though there can be 'quacks' practicisng it but there are 'quacks' in western medicine too.

They both have an altruistic intent, but as the articles posted show, only one of them actually works.

And this is the important bit from your article:

" Most clinical trials (i.e., studies in people) of Ayurvedic approaches have been small, had problems with research designs, lacked appropriate control groups, or had other issues that affected how meaningful the results were. Therefore, scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic practices varies, and more rigorous research is needed to determine which practices are safe and effective."

AKA there's no evidence whatsoever that all this actually works. And, I can't say it enough, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I am also posting the link below to put a few things into perspective regarding "allopathic" medicine.

http://www.webdc.com...hbymedicine.pdf.

What's your point? We all know that medicine can be dangerous. But we also know that it works. It cures diseases, ranging from influensa to cancer. Medicine is slowly but steadily turning the tide on AIDS. Did traditional practices eradicate smallpox? How many people with malaria were cured with medicine and how many were saved by Ayurveda? Science-based medicine works, and that's a fact.

Regarding alternate medicine i would first be prudent in stating which form of medicine is alternative in nature i.e which has evolved fairly recently and provided an alternative and also would like to point out that the niche carved for various 'alternate' systems of medicine is not because everyone is happy with 'allopathy'.

I fail to see what you want to achieve here.

9)Ideas are also borrowed and plagarised,intellectual property rights anyone?

Yes they are. Your point being?

10)Highlighting 'horsepower' was to point out how some words directly interpretted can be misleading even in the modern context.

This is an intellectually vacuous argument. Horsepower is not misleading in context: "This plane has a 500 hp engine" (notice the words "plane" and "engine". It is obvious to anyone that horsepower is an abstract concept, and not actual horses), and neither is a description of a chariot that is drawn by goats. There is no way you can interpret "goats" as "jet engine" or even "turboprop engine". They are goats. The Vedas have nothing to do with mechanical flight.

11)The paper was published in JIES you can check for yourself.No need to believe anything i say on faith.The utility of writing i believe is in the clarity with which it can convey the intended message.You can have your strict formats and edits but i would not bother much with them unless they change or imapct the meaning.

Why should I check it? You made the claim, you have the burden of proof.

You wouldn't bother with them, but fortunately you have no authority over academic writing. These standards exist for a good reason.

12)How many people can still read the Vedas? as many as those who can read and wan't to read it,but it will be surely lesser then the number of people who can see pictures and understand them.Every Hindu knows about the Vedas doesn't necessarily read or byheart them though other epics like 'Mahabharata' and 'Ramayana' have more popular appeal.

Don't weasel out. What percentage of Indians can read the Vedas in their original Sanskrit? How many? If you go to Arnhem Land, every Aboriginal Australian living there will be able to interpret the rock paintings. And these are not simple doodles, but complex works, laced with hidden symbolism and illustrating complicated stories.

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There is nothing to indicate that these people's culture got isolated at some point and anything was lost. It is much more logical that they moved to the island at a less developed state, which got conserved through isolation.

Next time try looking further than Wikipedia

Here's a paper proving that the Andamanese are the only people in India with no traces Ancestral North Indian genes, and closest to the Ancestral South Indian state that existed before the Northerners arrived: http://genepath.med....Reich_India.pdf

Here's another paper, with genetic proof that the Andamanese are the unique descendants of the people who first colonised Southern Asia: http://www.krepublis...003-Kashyap.pdf

And one more, further reinforcing my thesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC378623/

Once again, you are talking about things you have no clue about. The slums, no matter their geographic locations in India, are very similar to each other, and don't show backwardness or lack of development, only deep poverty. They are the products of urbanisation processes and the people living in them are, by all means, modern, even if they lack basic amenities. You can't compare them with people living in truly prehistoric circumstances.

Yes, you are comparing them on an extremely superficial level, which makes the comparison worthless.

They are not different planets in the examples I cited.

Yes, there were cultures with more intellectual achievements then others. But that was not due to their intelligence, only their circumstances. You need a level of urbanisation and economic power for that, which depend on many environmental factors. But no culture ever possessed a more or less advanced intelligence.

And yes, IQ test exist, but are deeply flawed. You can't use the same test for all people, the tests have to be tailor-made for cultural and social groups, or else the results will not reflect reality.

And I am pointing out that singling out one of the many particles that are present in all matter makes no sense.

How does Brhman deal with antimatter?

The engine of a helicopter and a car is completely different. Of course, if you view it from as far as possible, they'll seem the same, but they are not. But this only reflects, once again, the basic flaw of your argument. You can't compare things in such a superficial way, because this way, you can draw parallels between everything.

They both have an altruistic intent, but as the articles posted show, only one of them actually works.

And this is the important bit from your article:

" Most clinical trials (i.e., studies in people) of Ayurvedic approaches have been small, had problems with research designs, lacked appropriate control groups, or had other issues that affected how meaningful the results were. Therefore, scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic practices varies, and more rigorous research is needed to determine which practices are safe and effective."

AKA there's no evidence whatsoever that all this actually works. And, I can't say it enough, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What's your point? We all know that medicine can be dangerous. But we also know that it works. It cures diseases, ranging from influensa to cancer. Medicine is slowly but steadily turning the tide on AIDS. Did traditional practices eradicate smallpox? How many people with malaria were cured with medicine and how many were saved by Ayurveda? Science-based medicine works, and that's a fact.

I fail to see what you want to achieve here.

Yes they are. Your point being?

This is an intellectually vacuous argument. Horsepower is not misleading in context: "This plane has a 500 hp engine" (notice the words "plane" and "engine". It is obvious to anyone that horsepower is an abstract concept, and not actual horses), and neither is a description of a chariot that is drawn by goats. There is no way you can interpret "goats" as "jet engine" or even "turboprop engine". They are goats. The Vedas have nothing to do with mechanical flight.

Why should I check it? You made the claim, you have the burden of proof.

You wouldn't bother with them, but fortunately you have no authority over academic writing. These standards exist for a good reason.

Don't weasel out. What percentage of Indians can read the Vedas in their original Sanskrit? How many? If you go to Arnhem Land, every Aboriginal Australian living there will be able to interpret the rock paintings. And these are not simple doodles, but complex works, laced with hidden symbolism and illustrating complicated stories.

1)More logical to whom?does your logic define actual events that happened millenias ago?It is equally logical to assume that the population was seperated and hence lost out on a lot of it's cultural knowledge.

2)Regarding genetic studies:

http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/aryan-dravidian-racist-theory-trashed-again-by-genetic-evidence/

http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2011/12/yet-another-genetic-study-that.html

http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/2011/12/yet-another-genetic-study-that.html

There are equal no of genetic studies that negate any real genetic divide between North Indians and South Indians and assert the contrary.If you have issues with info on wiki then why not go and update it to your level of currentness.

Put dates for suspected colonisation of Southern India so i can better demolish your thesis as indicated by the genetic studies that you have posted.Using genetic studies to extrapolate population migration is a very stupid and fallacious excercise in it's present form and i can elaborate on the inaccuracies which seep in the inference section.If you are going to assume then i will put forward some other popular assumptions.Though these have nothing to do with Vedic culture but i would still entertain you,list down the crux of your argument for your migration theory and i will put forward mine,don't only post links but please elaborate in your own words.

3)I have spent more time and interacted with slum dwellers in bombay then you have so lets not question my knowledge of slums in Mumbai.

4)Regarding superficial comparisons please elaborate on the nation credited to be the first democracy and compoare their systems with a modern democracy,do the differences in approach discredit the underlying concept.This is a subjective opinion so you can have your own.

5)Thanks for giving your opinion on IQ tests but you still didn't answer my question:is it a supremacist practice?

6)There were culture with advance intelligence in history of civilization,you can deny and remain ignorant.Urbanisation is not a requirement for advance intelligence which can exist even without Urbanisation.

7)Regarding evidence for effectivity of Ayurveda go search yourself other then western medical sources,wiki often gives a non-biased view from both sides of an argument.It is surprising how you quote from Wiki in this instance.

8)You talk of how many people were saved in ancient times by disease that probably didn't manifest in those times at a scale that we observed fairly recently.When was Aids observed in modern civilization and why did it spread? When has cancer become prominent and a major disease and under what circumstances? Why were there epidemics of small pox?Was it because of hygeine issues?Could small pox epidemics have been prevented by principles of hygeine?

9)Age of similar ideas can indicate which was inspired from which.

10)OMG the justification that you gave for 'Horse Power' and the rejection for 'Goat powered' is very convincing to us in this age since we never used 'Goat power'.

11)I am not weaseling out on anything,i still maintain that as many people who wan't to 'read' the Vedas in original Sanskrit can read it and not only in India but even in foreign countries which are now having entire departments dedicated to such studies.

And like i said it the no. of people who can see images and interpret them will always be more then people who can 'read' a particular language.Countless generations of Indians till the present date can recognise and interpret images of vedic Gods and lores.If peoples ability to intrerpret pictures or images impresses you then you can find it all around the world in all cultures through out the world and is not a statement on current relevancy of their culture or a statement on their advance intelligence or the antiquity of their culture.So i don't understand the point you are trying to make regarding the interpretations of images etc?

12)Checking out if an article has been published in JIES.I will leave it at that,since you cast the doubt why don't you justify your doubt by showing it wasn't published in JIES until then i will considered the matter settled.

13)Regarding your thesis,it is surprisingly represented on WIKI,you can call it the Negrito thesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negrito

14)Still waiting for gems of Andamanese culture or any lore or texts that can attest to the antiquity of their advance culture or intellect,please don't weasel out on this request since you claimed that their culture has to be older then the vedic culture.

15)Brhman doesn't need to deal with antimatter,people who claimed it's existence need to deal with it and demonstrate it under laboratory conditions but if i remeber correctly antimatter would explode if it comes in contact with matter so it conveniently can never be observed or it's existence cannot be proved. According to vedic mythology there is a continous interaction between the manifest and the unmanifest.

16)Strict format requirements for academic papers is probably a brain child of the intellectually vaccuous and a rigid biased mind set of traditional dogma, the practice is not really a hallmark of academic intelligence but probably a source of occupation for text editors and a sort of obsessive mental mastrubation for people who can't give importance to content but are more preoccupied by the presentation.Probably it is for people who can't really add to intellectual academic content and rather try to disguise their garbage by strict formatting as the meaning of the content is vaccuous and the only way the paper can earn a right of passage is due to it's formatting.

17)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Andamanese_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onge_people

Was trying to search for Andamanese culture/religion couldn't find anything.But the stupid suggestion of them migrating out of africa 50,000 years back really stood out but atleast they used words like 'seems to have' instead of has.And i was pretty astounded by the small population size and how can you determine a dang from such a small statistical group.

Recent history

In 1974, a film crew and anthropologist Trilokinath Pandit attempted friendly contact by leaving a tethered pig, some pots and pans, some fruit and toys on the beach at North Sentinel Island. One of the islanders shot the film director in the thigh with an arrow. The following year, European visitors were repulsed with arrows.[26][27][28]

On August 2, 1981, the ship Primrose grounded on the North Sentinel Island reef. A few days later, crewmen on the immobile vessel observed that small black men were carrying spears and arrows and building boats on the beach. The captain of the Primrose radioed for an urgent airdrop of firearms so the crew could defend themselves, but did not receive them. Heavy seas kept the islanders away from the ship. After a week, the crew were rescued by an Indian navy helicopter.[26]

On January 4, 1991, Indian scholar Trilokinath Pandit made the first known friendly contact with the Sentinelese.[28]

Until 1996, the Jarawa met most visitors with flying arrows. From time to time they attacked and killed poachers on the lands reserved to them by the Indian government. They also killed some workers building the Andaman Trunk Road (ATR), which traverses Jarawa lands. One of the earliest peaceful contacts with the Jarawa occurred in 1996. Settlers found a teenage Jarawa boy named Emmei near Kadamtala town. The boy was immobilized with a broken foot. They took Emmei to a hospital where he received good care. Over several weeks, Emmei learned a few words of Hindi before returning to his jungle home. The following year, Jarawa individuals and small groups began appearing along roadsides and occasionally venturing into settlements to steal food. The ATR may have interfered with traditional Jarawa food sources.[29][30][31.

Dont seem to be a very cultured or friendly sort.

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