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RavenHawk

Why not Islam?

47 posts in this topic

I’m pretty overloaded now, so I’m not sure why I’m even starting a new thread. However, I’d like to elicit your opinions on this. I’ve been thinking again which I know I shouldn’t do. I’m sure there will be several legitimate opinions and then a few excuses but I would like to wade through them none-the-less. For whatever reason the US and Israel has a very tight relationship. Many times you’ll hear that Israel is our little brother. And in many ways they are. Now we have various alliances at various levels with many Islamic nations, but then have never been as close as that with Israel. The question is, why not?

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Until the late 20th century the jewish population of america was greater? And because chritianity was born from judaism?

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Because they have allegiance with Russia so to speak

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You sure it's Israel that's the little brother?

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Because for nearly 2000 years Jewish peoples have held an active role in the cultures of every western country (and Russia), so culturally and historicaly we have much in common with them. This relationship has actually overall probably been very good for both of us. We have much less in common with our midlle eastern breathren.

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You sure it's Israel that's the little brother?

I would also like to know that answer to that question

From what I see it is America that is the little brother, Not Israel

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I would also like to know that answer to that question

From what I see it is America that is the little brother, Not Israel

disagree. I always use to let my little brother act out until it was time to show him who's boss. Don't believe the hype.

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Until the late 20th century the jewish population of america was greater? And because chritianity was born from judaism?

You could say that Islam was *born* from Judaism and Christianity. But Muslims would say that Judaism and Christianity are but a corrupted version of the original, which Islam is closer to. We are probably closer to England, Canada, and even Japan because of ties and/or history. But by that token, shouldn't we also share ties with China? We really don't. But we shouldn't even be close to Israel for religious reasons because Jews don't believe in Jesus. This might be a peripheral reason but there has to be a better reason.

Because they have allegiance with Russia so to speak

There seems to be some truth to that but Muslims were just an easy puppet against the US. But given that, Russia is no longer the power it once was. So why hasn't relations with the West warmed up more? Why hasn't Muslim nations really tried to court the world's only superpower? I think that the reason lies deeper.

You sure it's Israel that's the little brother?

I'll just say that in the circles that count, Israel is Little Brother.

Because for nearly 2000 years Jewish peoples have held an active role in the cultures of every western country (and Russia), so culturally and historicaly we have much in common with them. This relationship has actually overall probably been very good for both of us. We have much less in common with our midlle eastern breathren.

I wouldn't call it active. Jews did find their way into European life but almost every European nation had pogroms. No one wanted the Jew. Those last 2000 years they were targets for being Christ killers, spreading the plague, eating children, controlling the banks, and many others.

The reoccurring theme here seems to be commonality of cultures. Today's Jew is less Semite and more European but their genes still carry the blood of David, Moses, and Abraham. And of course, many Arabs carry the blood of Abraham. But then shouldn't Israel and the Arabs have closer ties? The melting pot that America is, we have the bloodlines and cultures of every other nation incorporated into our society, so we should be close to every nation. But we're not. So there has to be other reasons.

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disagree. I always use to let my little brother act out until it was time to show him who's boss. Don't believe the hype.

Did he ever kill you?

http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

Does he disobey the orders of the supposed highest authority in our society at will? (The UN and their "resolutions" that are only enforced when the big boys say so)

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Did he ever kill you?

http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

Well, if we are comparing the two nations as brothers, then this is what brothers do. What my brothers and I did to each other growing up, I'm surprised that we still have all our body parts.

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I wouldn't call it active. Jews did find their way into European life but almost every European nation had pogroms. No one wanted the Jew. Those last 2000 years they were targets for being Christ killers, spreading the plague, eating children, controlling the banks, and many others.

I watched a show on PBS about this very thing last night and by and large that was not the case. It was more like this: Jews moved to pax romana countries, jews integrate. Jews live in peace and cooperation for a few hundred years. Jews get targeted. Jews move. cycle starts again. So yes they often were targets and did live as a sub-culture, but also brought educational systems which were adapted by thier hosts to the benefit of both groups, as well as many other cultural contributions. All of the other things were raelly not that prevalent until around the 15th century, with the exception of some flare up during the crusades. Interestingly they also got along famously with muslims until recent centuries.

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Did he ever kill you?

http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

Does he disobey the orders of the supposed highest authority in our society at will? (The UN and their "resolutions" that are only enforced when the big boys say so)

If Israel obeyed every rule decided on by the UN it would have ceased to exist not long after it was born. When a solid voting block of self professed enemies can dictate what happens to you then you have little choice but disobey - if you are intent on survival.

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When a solid voting block of self professed enemies can dictate what happens to you then you have little choice but disobey - if you are intent on survival.

And so says North Korea and Cuba, I believe. So said Apartheid South Africa.

But then... they are not "The Chosen People", with a finger in every pie.

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Well, if we are comparing the two nations as brothers, then this is what brothers do.

Brothers kill each other?

I am absolutely de-lighted that me and mine do NOT belong to your family.

May God bless the memory of the USS LIberty!

Edited by Eldorado

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Brothers kill each other?

I am absolutely de-lighted that me and mine do NOT belong to your family.

May God bless the memory of the USS LIberty!

I agree. And I also agree it was a crime against the US what Israel did on that occasion, but it also points out their will to go to ANY length to survive as a nation and that is what most do not believe for some reason. It's as though some believe that Israel would get cold feet about being obliterated in a war. I don't believe they'll hesitate in the slightest to nuke an enemy who they feel is actually going to destroy them.

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I agree. And I also agree it was a crime against the US what Israel did on that occasion, but it also points out their will to go to ANY length to survive as a nation and that is what most do not believe for some reason. It's as though some believe that Israel would get cold feet about being obliterated in a war. I don't believe they'll hesitate in the slightest to nuke an enemy who they feel is actually going to destroy them.

Does this "they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive" stance extend to other nations or is it just Israel? Because given that millions of North Koreans are starving, I think they'd LOVE a chance to have another shot at the fertile soil of the South. Or Iran, given that the full weight of America is slowly being brought to bear on it must be feeling threatened. Or the Palestinians who, at least in their own minds and in the rhetoric of their supporters, are the victims of Israeli oppression.

Do they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive?

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USS Liberty was most likely an accident considering Israel never destroyed the vessel and even sent rescue ships to help the Americans who survived.

If they had intended to destroy the ship they would have. People who cry about USS Liberty frequently leave the last part out. Israel had a lot of friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war from their airforce, if I recall they even bombed their own tank column during that war. They kept their pilots in the air for a long time without any rest.

Edited by Gravitorbox
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Does this "they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive" stance extend to other nations or is it just Israel? Because given that millions of North Koreans are starving, I think they'd LOVE a chance to have another shot at the fertile soil of the South. Or Iran, given that the full weight of America is slowly being brought to bear on it must be feeling threatened. Or the Palestinians who, at least in their own minds and in the rhetoric of their supporters, are the victims of Israeli oppression.

Do they have the right to do whatever is necessary to survive?

All people do. In the first two instances it is the governments of those countries doing the threat to their survival - not an outside entity. If you really are making the case that there is another nation that is as apt to be attacked and if defeated have it's citizens actually annihilated then go for it but I think you know that's lame. I think the major disconnect (I hope) with those who chant fairness about Israel is that they cannot believe that her enemies would actually kill all her survivors. To those I ask - Who do you think would help them? If you want to see what an Arab army is capable I direct your attention to Houla and Aleppo and a dozen other cities where the blood of Syrian children is splattered on the walls of homes. If they have no remorse to do this to an Arab "enemy" where do you think the mercy will be found for the Apes and Pigs Muhammad wrote about?

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Israel is protected by God's sacred promise according to you. So who's going to protect them? God.

Now that their protection is out of the equation, I think we can hold them to standards deserving of God's people.

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USS Liberty was most likely an accident considering Israel never destroyed the vessel and even sent rescue ships to help the Americans who survived.

If they had intended to destroy the ship they would have. People who cry about USS Liberty frequently leave the last part out. Israel had a lot of friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war from their airforce, if I recall they even bombed their own tank column during that war. They kept their pilots in the air for a long time without any rest.

Those "people who cry" about the USS Liberty?

Do you mean the veterans of the attack, the families of the thirty four murdered American boys or just everyone who disagrees with you?

"In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed." The full text of the report can be found at: http://www.gtr5.com/...e/warcrimes.pdf

Heres a list of some of those who cried foul.

http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Here is just two from that list.

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."

-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers."

-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

The Truth hurts at times, does it not?

Edited by Eldorado

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I think it goes all the way back to the crusades.

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Those "people who cry" about the USS Liberty?

Do you mean the veterans of the attack, the families of the thirty four murdered American boys or just everyone who disagrees with you?

"In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed." The full text of the report can be found at: http://www.gtr5.com/...e/warcrimes.pdf

Heres a list of some of those who cried foul.

http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html

Here is just two from that list.

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."

-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers."

-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

The Truth hurts at times, does it not?

This is all completely irrelevant. You didn't address the fact that the USS Liberty was never destroyed and the Israelis sent rescue for the survivors when they found out it was an American ship. Are you DENYING that happened, or do you have an explanation as to how that fits into your narrative that they did it on purpose?

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Israel is protected by God's sacred promise according to you. So who's going to protect them? God.

Now that their protection is out of the equation, I think we can hold them to standards deserving of God's people.

Israel will never be removed again from the land nor extincted as is the wish of their enemies but that doesn't mean He plans to show up with air power :innocent:

Approximately 2/3 are to be destroyed during the end time conflicts. The irony is that most in the nation are secular and like most US Christians only do God lip service. That won't stop Him from keeping the promise though. I think everyone should be held to that standard since we all share a common humanity - even the Jews.

Edited by and then

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This is all completely irrelevant. You didn't address the fact that the USS Liberty was never destroyed and the Israelis sent rescue for the survivors when they found out it was an American ship. Are you DENYING that happened, or do you have an explanation as to how that fits into your narrative that they did it on purpose?

Not my narrative. The narrative of the surviviors. US Veterans. Usually honoured, but not this time. Why not?

Irrellevant only if you are Jewish or blinkered.

It's "inconvenient".

Edited by Eldorado

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Not my narrative. The narrative of the surviviors. US Veterans. Usually honoured, but not this time. Why not?

Going through a hellish experience doesn't give you objectivity on the matter. If anything it is more likely to emotionally rile you up and make you not think objectively of a situation. I know that sounds disrespectful but it is the truth.

The way you are acting is tantamount to justifying the Iraq war by constantly harping on 9/11 and how it was terrible, and how people who oppose the Iraq war are "disrespecting the victims of 9/11". You're not being objective.

It is true, at least from what I read, that there are suspicious aspects regarding the investigation of the incident. But the facts are:

1. Israel didn't destroy the ship.

2. Israel did in fact cease attacking at some point to help the survivors. They likely found out it was American ship and felt rather embarrassed.

3. The Israeli airforce has had friendly fire incidents during the 6 day war due to keeping their airforce in the air for long periods of time. They had bombed their own tank column.

I can't believe I have to say this all again but I need to make this clear. I can't see why they would purposely attack an American ship and then stop attacking and help the survivors. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and does not fit into the "Israel attacked the USS Liberty on purpose" narrative.

The evidence you are pushing, which consists of what the sailors believed and the suspicions surrounding the investigation, have to compete with the facts I stated above. I'm sure it's entirely possible that Israel was so embarrassed about the incident that they halted investigations into it.

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