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Ben Masada

The Power that Prayer does not Have

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Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Defenition of repent:

1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2a : to feel regret or contrition

b : to change one's mind

Sounds like they repented by turning from their evil ways (definition 1)

And God repented by changing his mind (definition 2)

If he could change his mind for repenting, he can't through prayer?

Hey Realm, you need to get out of the realm of the letter and into the realm of metaphorical language. The singular danger of literal interpretation of the Scriptures only leads one into the realm of contradictions. Anger is an emotion, a passion, and God is not like a man to be activated by emotions. The change of mind here is in our own conscience, when repentance and obedience are effected. That's what Isaiah 1:18,19 is all about. The only way to set things right with God, so that our sins, from scarlet red, become as white as snow, is through repentance and a return to obedience.

Ben

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Wouldn't God ( being so all knowing ) already know exactly what man will or will not do? And God would already know the outcome BEFORE it ever happens? So punishing is pointless God saw it before man did ...........If God said - Timmy - Do not travel to Scotland... the time is not right.......Well if Timmy went regardless God would have known what Timmy's next move was before Timmy...!!!!!! Poor Timmy lol

The name if free will. That's one of the attributes man, as a human being, was granted with. Metaphorically, God does not intervene with what man chooses to do or not to. According to Gen. 4:7, "If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door; his urge is toward you; yet, you can be his master." This is what goes on in the conscience of man when he is contemplating an evil action.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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If God really knows everything, then He already knows the outcome of a prayer request - He knew it before it was asked. If He already knows what will happen, then there isn't any point to prayer, because God CAN'T change His mind, because that would change the outcome. So prayer is a waste of breath.

Doug

P.S.: But that means there is something that God can't do, so God is not all-powerful. So why are you praying to a God that can't do anything about it, anyway?

Religion gives me a headache.

Doug

God can do every thing but one; what you we wish He did or should do. Now, for your surprise, prayer is not a waste of breath. Psychologically, prayer is rather salutary and good. I mean, prayers of thanksgiving and song prayers. The problem with requesting prayers is that, for lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, many tend to assume that God can be moved into action by prayers. The result is anxiety and disappointment. BTW, even requesting prayers can be effective if we, for instance let a sick person know that we are praying for his or her recovery, although we forget or had no mind to pray at all. The self suggestion in the heart of the sick, would do the trick. A lady was in bed for three days, we formed a minyan of ten men to pray for her recovery, we made sure she knew what was going on and the right time, and she did recover. As far as she was concerned, the thing was for real. Among us, it was only an experiment, which proved the fallacy of requesting prayers.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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"I knew I was God when I was praying and suddenly realized that I was talking to myself."

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"I knew I was God when I was praying and suddenly realized that I was talking to myself."

A god praying to another god!!! That's why you realized you were talking to yourself. Hey, I am kidding. I do understand what you mean. I wish all who have a mind to bribe God, realized the same reality.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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THE POWER THAT PRAYER DOES NOT HAVE

This might prove to be a time bomb, considering that approximately 95% of theists won't agree with me. Prayers cannot make God change His mind, that's the point. I mean, requesting prayers. That's not simply my opinion but my understanding of Numbers 23:19 in the Torah, where we have that God is not like a man to change His mind.

Prayer, by definition, if we seriously think it through, is an attempt to make God change His mind.

Forgive me.,. I did not not read the rest of your post. Prayer is an affirmation of a state of mind, those states have a tremendous impact upon people in them. If you take out all the gods and all that, proper prayer is a meditation and an incredibly benificial state of existence. Even atheists could Benifit from the concept and the world would grow leap folds once we all adopt it properly. ( if only )

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Pray to a door knob and you'll get the same result

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I'm up to praying to those who passed. Not with an our father or amen at the end but just sending hope that the dead know I miss them and still love them. Hell I'll even tell them what has been going on recently. It brings back memories and makes them passing easier. just makes me feel better. That's about as far as I would do it.

Talking to a doorknob would break the bring back the memories part for me :P

Thankfully I can do that because I don't follow a religion or any man-like God entity otherwise I'd be doing a whole bunch of blasphemy and would never hear the end of it.

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Forgive me.,. I did not not read the rest of your post. Prayer is an affirmation of a state of mind, those states have a tremendous impact upon people in them. If you take out all the gods and all that, proper prayer is a meditation and an incredibly benificial state of existence. Even atheists could Benifit from the concept and the world would grow leap folds once we all adopt it properly. ( if only )

I agree with you 100%. Prayer is indeed an affirmation of a state of mind. Prayer, indeed, has a tremendous impact upon people's minds, but not on God's. And, please, do not assume that I am making that up. I gave the Torah quote in the thread as an evidence to my assertion. If I take off "all the gods!!!" Are you an atheist? They never refer to God, the Creator of the universe, in the singular. You know, their way to look down on theists. Of course, why would they agree to "take out all the gods?" They need theists that way to keep the fun at home.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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Pray to a door knob and you'll get the same result.

Didn't you read what Seeker79 said above? The impact is on the one praying and not on the one prayed to. You might as well compare it to a door knob.

Ben

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Didn't you read what Seeker79 said above? The impact is on the one praying and not on the one prayed to. You might as well compare it to a door knob.

Ben

Using that logic, are we to assume that praying for another individual is absolutely useless?

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I'm up to praying to those who passed. Not with an our father or amen at the end but just sending hope that the dead know I miss them and still love them. Hell I'll even tell them what has been going on recently. It brings back memories and makes them passing easier. just makes me feel better. That's about as far as I would do it.

Talking to a doorknob would break the bring back the memories part for me :P

Thankfully I can do that because I don't follow a religion or any man-like God entity otherwise I'd be doing a whole bunch of blasphemy and would never hear the end of it.

You don't have to follow a religion. BTW, religion per se won't teach you the truth that, once dead, one is really dead. All their memory is gone. It is an exercise on futility to think that they could ever be contacted. (Eccl. 9:5)

Ben

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Using that logic, are we to assume that praying for another individual is absolutely useless?

If you intend to make God change His mind about another individual yes, it is absolutely useless. However, it is good for the individual to know that you are praying for him or her. You know how Psychology operates. Self-suggestion can sometimes make miracles.

Ben

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If you intend to make God change His mind about another individual yes, it is absolutely useless. However, it is good for the individual to know that you are praying for him or her. You know how Psychology operates. Self-suggestion can sometimes make miracles.

Ben

Not at all. When an individual knows that they are being prayed for, it tends to produce adverse effects, and results.

http://web.med.harva...l/3_31STEP.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16569567

RESULTS:

In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

[media=]

[/media] Edited by Alienated Being

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Oh but the Power Prayer does have.....

Proove it! HA

Big God vs. little god. Through God All things are possible! This includes prayer. Hallelujah!

Prayer is for your spirit.... not for your ego.

Edited by SpiritWriter
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Oh but the Power Prayer does have.....

Proove it! HA

Big God vs. little god. Through God All things are possible! This includes prayer. Hallelujah!

Prayer is for your spirit.... not for your ego.

Here is an equation for your consideration: I Am = spirit I Am + anything else = ego EX: I Am vs. I Am a banker, lawyer, indian chief, painter, singer, rock star, ...any definition added to I Am equates to the ego. Prayer illuminates the I Am which diminishes the ego. When one prays for the ego...the spirit languishes.

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Most definitely, I agree with you. It is healthy to pray; but requesting prayer is dangerous, as it causes anxiety and disappointment. I mean, if we are in a pressing situation, we ought rather to thank God that our state could be worse and live it at that with praises to the Lord. If God is Omniscient, won't He know what's going on?

Ben

Im sorry. What? How can prayer cause those things We might get disapointed or stressed if we believe god has not answered our prayers, but if while praying we know god is listening and is answering our prayers then we cant get sressed or anxious. we accpet gods answer to our prayer in whatever material form it takes.

On a wider note not only does god answer prayers abut he channges physical reality( ie creates nmiracles) and the potential future in order to answer those prayers. For example a perosnmight be destined ot die in one future, but prays to god .god saves them. (which he can do in numerous ways) The future is changed. It is really as simple as that, in real life. Only our philosophical/ theoretical constructs and understandngs of beliefs about god prevent us from seeing this. There are a number of cases in the old testament where god changes his mind clearly and deliberately and causes different consequences from those he first planned . This starts in eden. God never palnned for adam and eve to fall. He never knew this would happen although he understood the potentiality of it He never knew satan would go to war with him either, because that intent was an evolved choice in satans mind which might never have come about. Satan could have made other choice.s Adam and eve could have made other choices.

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I somewhat agree with OP. God has no moral responsibility to answer your prayer. In fact, he never answers anyone's prayers. I learned this by the hard way.

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The name if free will. That's one of the attributes man, as a human being, was granted with. Metaphorically, God does not intervene with what man chooses to do or not to. According to Gen. 4:7, "If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door; his urge is toward you; yet, you can be his master." This is what goes on in the conscience of man when he is contemplating an evil action.

Ben

That Ben is not the point I was making. . Yes man can decide what to do himself / herself ..BUT my point is, that God already knows what he or she has decided to do before they even make any decision.. To sum up - God will know what you will decide and what the outcome of your decision will be, long before you do ..

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Oh but the Power Prayer does have.....

Proove it! HA

Big God vs. little god. Through God All things are possible! This includes prayer. Hallelujah!

Prayer is for your spirit.... not for your ego.

And what is your definition of spirit?

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Oh but the Power Prayer does have.....

Proove it! HA

Big God vs. little god. Through God All things are possible! This includes prayer. Hallelujah!

Prayer is for your spirit.... not for your ego.

Not petition prayers at least.

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Im sorry. What? How can prayer cause those things We might get disapointed or stressed if we believe god has not answered our prayers, but if while praying we know god is listening and is answering our prayers then we cant get sressed or anxious. we accpet gods answer to our prayer in whatever material form it takes.

On a wider note not only does god answer prayers abut he channges physical reality( ie creates nmiracles) and the potential future in order to answer those prayers. For example a perosnmight be destined ot die in one future, but prays to god .god saves them. (which he can do in numerous ways) The future is changed. It is really as simple as that, in real life. Only our philosophical/ theoretical constructs and understandngs of beliefs about god prevent us from seeing this. There are a number of cases in the old testament where god changes his mind clearly and deliberately and causes different consequences from those he first planned . This starts in eden. God never palnned for adam and eve to fall. He never knew this would happen although he understood the potentiality of it He never knew satan would go to war with him either, because that intent was an evolved choice in satans mind which might never have come about. Satan could have made other choice.s Adam and eve could have made other choices.

Not according to Numbers 23:19. Perhaps according to the Greek text, which is Hellenistic par excellence.

Ben

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I somewhat agree with OP. God has no moral responsibility to answer your prayer. In fact, he never answers anyone's prayers. I learned this by the hard way.

God has answered our prayers already when others of His creatures, were endowed with the expertise to be proficient in what one needs to achieve. The Doctor for the sick, for instance.

Ben

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That Ben is not the point I was making. . Yes man can decide what to do himself / herself ..BUT my point is, that God already knows what he or she has decided to do before they even make any decision.. To sum up - God will know what you will decide and what the outcome of your decision will be, long before you do ..

I agree with you, but He does not intervene in the affairs of man. Into his free will, that is.

Ben

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