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Ben Masada

The Power that Prayer does not Have

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Here's the problem with what we have come to know as Prayer:

I see prayer as a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

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I agree with you, but He does not intervene in the affairs of man. Into his free will, that is.

Ben

Nothing from my posts suggests he intervenes, I was speaking about being all knowing..... But see what you hold here is your opinion.. If he intervenes or not is something no one can prove for sure..

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Here's the problem with what we have come to know as Prayer:

I see prayer as a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

That's a strange concept I have never heard of. We use more the prayer-song method. The method you present seems the same but without the music.

Ben

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Nothing from my posts suggests he intervenes, I was speaking about being all knowing..... But see what you hold here is your opinion.. If he intervenes or not is something no one can prove for sure..

Well, according to Numbers 23:19, He doesn't.

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Well, according to Numbers 23:19, He doesn't.

I do not follow nor holds beliefs in any man made religion... I view God differently.... Each to their own

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That's a strange concept I have never heard of. We use more the prayer-song method. The method you present seems the same but without the music.

Ben

Oh, I didn't mean to imply prayers were just bizarre incantations or something.

Vocalizing the prayer or what the Egyptians called Affirmations, was a part of most ancient religions, they were almost always accompanied by music if only by a drum beat.

Being that you are located in Israel I assume you are Jewish?

The number of musicians engaged in the temple during the time of King David; "and four thousand praised the Lord with instruments which I made, said David, to praise therewith" (1 Chron. xxiii. 5).

King Solomon himself was a musical composer!

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Not at all. When an individual knows that they are being prayed for, it tends to produce adverse effects, and results.

http://web.med.harva...l/3_31STEP.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16569567

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You quote that study a lot. What was the nature of those prayed for eg believers or atheists? What illnesses did they have and how was it conducted? Did the people prayed for know those praying personally, like friends or family, or were they just told some compete stranger had been arbitrarily praying for them without their consent?

There are other studies i have read which indicated significant improvements on patients who were prayed for. For example prayer might not improve the physical outcomes for patients suffering from cancer, but it might help those suffering from non clinical depression associated with the cancer, and thus improve their quality of life.

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You quote that study a lot. What was the nature of those prayed for eg believers or atheists? What illnesses did they have and how was it conducted? Did the people prayed for know those praying personally, like friends or family, or were they just told some compete stranger had been arbitrarily praying for them without their consent?

There are other studies i have read which indicated significant improvements on patients who were prayed for. For example prayer might not improve the physical outcomes for patients suffering from cancer, but it might help those suffering from non clinical depression associated with the cancer, and thus improve their quality of life.

Go and do some research on the study. I am not going to spoon feed the details to you.

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And what is your definition of spirit?

Spirit to me is your soul and the awareness of its connection to God. This may not be my ideal definition, I don't think I defined it before. When I say prayer is for your spirit, I mean prayer helps you get closer to God, helps you eliminate negatives, recognize things within you that are stumbling blocks for growth, such as hate/jealously/anger (for example). I don't believe we need to pray for things like, a new car, a new house, extra money etc.. because God provides for us always and provides in a better way than we can see for ourself. If we are meant to be a teacher, but are in reality a customer service representative for a cellphone company, or a nurse, or a manager of a grocery store - in prayer we may ask for a raise at work but then turn around and get fired from our job. Jesus said we pray like this (forgive me I haven't read this whole thread at all, this may have been mentioned)

our father who art in heaven hallow be thy name - Give God the Glory

thy kingdom come, they will be done - let your will be done

on earth as it is in heaven - these are the workings of spiritual things, we desire it for the Earth and not only for ourselves...

give us this day our daily bread- God always provides for us, we can ask for things sure, it may not be exactly what we "think" we need, but he gives us the provisions always, sometimes at the last minute and in what seems like impossible ways!

forgive us our trespasses - We repent of the ills we have committed, we recognize them, we change our minds and ask God to help us become better and better people

as we forgive others - we are set free in our spirit by forgiving others, God helps us with this, this is not always instant, but if we are intent and earnest we can learn to forgive even the greatest things (this does not mean tolerate sins against us, this means for us to be free of its negative effects on us - that cause spiritual unhealthiness for both parties)

For thine is the kingdom,

The power, and the glory, - Again giving honor to God

Amen - God wants to make sure you haven't fallen asleep during prayer, so you finish by saying Amen... lol - just kidding

:)

This is not to say all prayers are this way, or that I pray this way, but I believe this is a good example of what prayer is like... God is our friend, our father (or mother or both), someone that is by our side at all times that we can learn from, that guides us, that protects us and provides for us. In prayer we develop the relationship, we are earnest about shedding things like - sin and changing our mind about certain behaviors and attitudes within ourselves that help us see God more clearly. This is spiritual growth. In this process we learn to love better, be better parents, be better friends. We see that our help truly does come from the Lord...

a few paragraphs down from the Lords prayer in Matthew is this:

Do Not Worry

25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his lifeb?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Edited by SpiritWriter

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Praying is like an icecube making an effort to melt so that it becomes a little bit closer to the ocean around it.

Well put.

I would say, about "request" prayers, that since God is omniscient, he knows what the outcome will be, whether or not someone prays. So praying can just be a sort of, pleading of your case, so to speak. There are selfish types of request prayers, which I would imagine God will not answer. These are ego driven, and go directly against the idea of trying to get closer to God. God knows which prayers are genuine, and which are not, and only the genuine prayers will be of good use. Praying is acknowledging God, and including him in your decision making. It's a form of surrender to God, almost like saying, "I admit that I can't do this without you, please grace me with your help" or something to that effect.

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If you think about it, God being benevolent, all knowing and all seeing. What is the point of prayer anyway? Someone said earlier it is to ask for an answer. How would a praye change that if you have conceptualised whatever it is in your mind and God would then know making prayer unecessary.

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God wants to make sure you haven't fallen asleep during prayer, so you finish by saying Amen... lol - just kidding

I have fallen asleep during prayer, many times..Sometimes shake myself and wind up saying - where was I ? Then I start again ...sometimes it ends with me just sleeping !!

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Amen - God wants to make sure you haven't fallen asleep during prayer, so you finish by saying Amen... lol - just kidding

:)

The root of Amen, means "what is hidden," "what is not seen," "what cannot be seen," and the like, and this fact is proved by scores of examples in hymns to Amen, it has been stated that these expressions refer to the "hiding," i.e., "setting" of the sun each evening, and that they are only to be understood in a physical sense, and to mean nothing more than the disappearance of the god Amen from the sight of men at the close of day.

Read More Here

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I think there was also a god named Amen at one time or another...

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If you think about it, God being benevolent, all knowing and all seeing. What is the point of prayer anyway? Someone said earlier it is to ask for an answer. How would a prayer change that if you have conceptualized whatever it is in your mind and God would then know making prayer unnecessary.

Prayer brings us closer to God in our minds and understanding. We ask for things. But we see how are desires are lining up with his will and purpose for us. We recognize what is truly important, learn to trust him, learn to see that yes indeed, he does have it all figured out for us. This I think is the intention at least...

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I think there was also a god named Amen at one time or another...

That's who I am talking about . . . the Egyptian Amon :w00t:

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perhaps...

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Go and do some research on the study. I am not going to spoon feed the details to you.

LOL just remember that response when you next ask me to prove my pov through a biblography. If YOU use a survey or experiment result to validate your opinions, then YOU need to be aware of; the persons conducting it, its purposes, parameters,and the strengths and flaws in that measurement tool.

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1st, the Torah could be wrong

2nd, there is no proof that God can't change his decision

Problem resolved.

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I think there was also a god named Amen at one time or another...

Ohhhhhh that is funny.. There is nothing like calling out another gods name when praying to your god lol :P

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I do not follow nor holds beliefs in any man made religion... I view God differently.... Each to their own

Hi Becky, would you please show me that the way you see God is not a man-made method to see God? Thank you.

Ben

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Oh, I didn't mean to imply prayers were just bizarre incantations or something.

Vocalizing the prayer or what the Egyptians called Affirmations, was a part of most ancient religions, they were almost always accompanied by music if only by a drum beat.

Being that you are located in Israel I assume you are Jewish?

The number of musicians engaged in the temple during the time of King David; "and four thousand praised the Lord with instruments which I made, said David, to praise therewith" (1 Chron. xxiii. 5).

King Solomon himself was a musical composer!

And you have assumed right. Yes, I am Jewish. I am aware of the choir in the Temple at the time of David and Solomon. They were most of them made out of singiers. A choir, that is. Only a few were misicians.

Ben

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If you think about it, God being benevolent, all knowing and all seeing. What is the point of prayer anyway? Someone said earlier it is to ask for an answer. How would a praye change that if you have conceptualised whatever it is in your mind and God would then know making prayer unecessary.

Prayer, per se, is not unnecessary. It is good to pray; as long as one prays without a mind to affect God with. Praying and singing for the glory of God is very salutary. It makes one feel good and, that's the purpose of praying.

Ben

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"I knew I was God when I was praying and suddenly realized that I was talking to myself."

Oh my god Dr. D you have me dying laughing with this one!! You get a cookie for this post!!!!

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If God is all knowing then there should be no need for prayer because he should already know what we want and/or need. So praying is a basically a waste of time unless you like talking to yourself.

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