9 Big Myths We're Being Peddled

[buckskin scout]

Perhaps they should have chosen a "government" that had more of a purpose than"death to Israel"

[media=]

*snip*

Edited October 2, 2012 by Saru
Removed flame

[+and-then]

That's just the point though, Bug. They aren't going anywhere. If the Palestinians would agree to accept less than ALL THE LAND...they could have a State and have peace. As long as they continue to act like spoiled children they will keep losing land. So be it.

[buckskin scout]

That's just the point though, Bug. They aren't going anywhere. If the Palestinians would agree to accept less than ALL THE LAND...they could have a State and have peace. As long as they continue to act like spoiled children they will keep losing land. So be it.

Oh, so it is perfectly alright and righteous for the illegal settlements to dump their raw sewage unto the lands of the West Bank Arabs that support their farms and their wells. Two commodities that the Arabs rely upon to survive?

[Mr.United_Nations]

Thing is that war against Iran never will happened. Its just for making Oil price going higher.

Whole Arab spring is Pentagon plan.

Proof of that is Syria. MI5,CIA and Sarkozy trained rebels and support them.

Only no one in Oil/Financal oligarchy didnt except that China and Russia will not allow new Lybia. Plus Iran sent their army just in case because if Syria fall then Iran will fall most likely.

Anyway I think its all about pumping price of oil.

Iran is ten times more stronger than Syria, this is not about oil.

[+and-then]

Oh, so it is perfectly alright and righteous for the illegal settlements to dump their raw sewage unto the lands of the West Bank Arabs that support their farms and their wells. Two commodities that the Arabs rely upon to survive?

If that was done intentionally (disputed in the film) then it was a disgusting act that the settlement should be fined for and made to correct.

[buckskin scout]

If that was done intentionally (disputed in the film) then it was a disgusting act that the settlement should be fined for and made to correct.

According the 4th Geneva Convention, these settlements should not exist to begin with, with their open sewer lines that is intentionally poisoning Arab Palestinian farmland and water wells.

[+and-then]

According the 4th Geneva Convention, these settlements should not exist to begin with, with their open sewer lines that is intentionally poisoning Arab Palestinian farmland and water wells.

As I said, IF it is intentional (disputed) then it should be punished. As for the settlements - they feel the land is rightfully their's. You fervently disagree with that and I think they have a case. Same old story and nothing is changing it.

[buckskin scout]

As I said, IF it is intentional (disputed) then it should be punished. As for the settlements - they feel the land is rightfully their's. You fervently disagree with that and I think they have a case. Same old story and nothing is changing it.

Foreigners just because their ancestry may or may not be traced back to nearly 2,000 years in this land have more rights to the land than people that have continually existed on this land for 1000s of years? Even though, the latter have been the occupying power for the last 1,600 years?

[+and-then]

Foreigners just because their ancestry may or may not be traced back to nearly 2,000 years in this land have more rights to the land than people that have continually existed on this land for 1000s of years? Even though, the latter have been the occupying power for the last 1,600 years?

Yes, even though......

[buckskin scout]

Yes, even though......

And I wonder if this view would still be supported without your interpreted Biblical end times rhetoric. In other words, lets remove the Bible from the equation and where does your views still stand?

[+and-then]

And I wonder if this view would still be supported without your interpreted Biblical end times rhetoric. In other words, lets remove the Bible from the equation and where does your views still stand?

My world view IS irrevocably intertwined with my belief in the Bible. Is your point that I'm wrong because you're telling me my belief system is all wrong - and you'd like for me to admit that to all those here at UM? I know how difficult this must be for you Bug but I actually BELIEVE these things. I've explained that every way I know how. You obviously do NOT believe them to be true - as is your prerogative. Why is such an admission by me so important to you?

Let me paint a picture for you: If Israel engaged in another "CAST LEAD" into Gaza and because of resistance that continued for a long time they killed thousands of civilians under questionable circumstances, I would be sick to my stomach at the slaughter but it would never occur to me to stop supporting Israel because of it. If war crimes were PROVEN against Israel I would be furious and ashamed and never view the State the same again...but I STILL WOULD SUPPORT the State of Israel. All this because I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God. Does this make me a bad person in your eyes? Sorry, I just don't care.

[buckskin scout]

My world view IS irrevocably intertwined with my belief in the Bible. Is your point that I'm wrong because you're telling me my belief system is all wrong - and you'd like for me to admit that to all those here at UM? I know how difficult this must be for you Bug but I actually BELIEVE these things. I've explained that every way I know how. You obviously do NOT believe them to be true - as is your prerogative. Why is such an admission by me so important to you?

Let me paint a picture for you: If Israel engaged in another "CAST LEAD" into Gaza and because of resistance that continued for a long time they killed thousands of civilians under questionable circumstances, I would be sick to my stomach at the slaughter but it would never occur to me to stop supporting Israel because of it. If war crimes were PROVEN against Israel I would be furious and ashamed and never view the State the same again...but I STILL WOULD SUPPORT the State of Israel. All this because I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God. Does this make me a bad person in your eyes? Sorry, I just don't care.

Back in Jesus' day, there was an expectation of the messiah, today among orthodox Jews there is still the expectation of the messiah? What gives?

Jews under Roman rule = no messiah

Jews living in the State of Israel = no messiah

Why does millions of people have to be forced to live as refugees in order to produce the messiah? Does the messiah want to inherit a kingdom that creates so much human suffering?

Does the Messiah inherit the kingdom?

Or does the Messiah raise the kingdom Himself?

Edited October 10, 2012 by Ambush Bug

[+and-then]

Back in Jesus' day, there was an expectation of the messiah, today among orthodox Jews there is still the expectation of the messiah? What gives?

Jews under Roman rule = no messiah

Jews living in the State of Israel = no messiah

Why does millions of people have to be forced to live as refugees in order to produce the messiah? Does the messiah want to inherit a kingdom that creates so much human suffering?

Does the Messiah inherit the kingdom?

Or does the Messiah raise the kingdom Himself?

The Kingdom is ushered in with messiah's return. It is not here, now. There are many scriptures that speak of these events separately. What is your point?

[WHO U KIDDIN]

My world view IS irrevocably intertwined with my belief in the Bible. Is your point that I'm wrong because you're telling me my belief system is all wrong - and you'd like for me to admit that to all those here at UM? I know how difficult this must be for you Bug but I actually BELIEVE these things. I've explained that every way I know how. You obviously do NOT believe them to be true - as is your prerogative. Why is such an admission by me so important to you?

Let me paint a picture for you: If Israel engaged in another "CAST LEAD" into Gaza and because of resistance that continued for a long time they killed thousands of civilians under questionable circumstances, I would be sick to my stomach at the slaughter but it would never occur to me to stop supporting Israel because of it. If war crimes were PROVEN against Israel I would be furious and ashamed and never view the State the same again...but I STILL WOULD SUPPORT the State of Israel. All this because I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God. Does this make me a bad person in your eyes? Sorry, I just don't care.

Images of the slaughter of people bother you, amazing that you are a compassionate blood-thristy war mongerer, perhaps some Pepto will take care of the upset stomach.

I'm glad you can live with yourself and not care about the rest of humanity.

Yes, I agree Israel is the chosen people of God. But they weren't chosen to lead the world to hell, as the current debate on Iran is leading us.

What is "The people of Israel" ?

-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

-It has its own particular, essential, nature.

-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.

-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service

2) What is Zionism ?

-Zionism is a new thing.

-It has only existed for a century.

-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.

- a materialistic worldly nation.

-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.

-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

From: http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/opposed.html

[+and-then]

Images of the slaughter of people bother you, amazing that you are a compassionate blood-thristy war mongerer, perhaps some Pepto will take care of the upset stomach.

I'm glad you can live with yourself and not care about the rest of humanity.

Yes, I agree Israel is the chosen people of God. But they weren't chosen to lead the world to hell, as the current debate on Iran is leading us.

What is "The people of Israel" ?

-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

-It has its own particular, essential, nature.

-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.

-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service

2) What is Zionism ?

-Zionism is a new thing.

-It has only existed for a century.

-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.

- a materialistic worldly nation.

-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.

-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

From: http://www.jewsnotzi...rg/opposed.html

Welcome to UM. I refer you to the last two sentences in my previous post

[buckskin scout]

The Kingdom is ushered in with messiah's return. It is not here, now. There are many scriptures that speak of these events separately. What is your point?

So the secular Jews of today are going to succeed where the religious Torah Jews failed to do back in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE against the Romans?

Hmm... something just doesnt add up here.

[Yamato]

Back in Jesus' day, there was an expectation of the messiah, today among orthodox Jews there is still the expectation of the messiah? What gives?

Jews under Roman rule = no messiah

Jews living in the State of Israel = no messiah

Why does millions of people have to be forced to live as refugees in order to produce the messiah? Does the messiah want to inherit a kingdom that creates so much human suffering?

Does the Messiah inherit the kingdom?

Or does the Messiah raise the kingdom Himself?

All good questions but moot when you take 'and then' seriously when he claims that nothing we can do can prevent or alter the prophecies.

So when he uses prophecies or his so-called belief in the Bible as the excuse to keep doing what Israel is doing, he's contradicting himself. Either policies create the fulfillment of prophecies or they don't. He's repeatedly claimed they don't. So therefore he should embrace a change of policies with no opposition to doing so coming from his religious beliefs. But yet he still can't do that. And the reason he can't, after we drop the false excuse of "true believer" is because ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and illegal occupation of Palestinians are too important for Israel not to continue in their own right.

[buckskin scout]

All good questions but moot when you take 'and then' seriously when he claims that nothing we can do can prevent or alter the prophecies.

So when he uses prophecies or his so-called belief in the Bible as the excuse to keep doing what Israel is doing, he's contradicting himself. Either policies create the fulfillment of prophecies or they don't. He's repeatedly claimed they don't. So therefore he should embrace a change of policies with no opposition to doing so coming from his religious beliefs. But yet he still can't do that. And the reason he can't, after we drop the false excuse of "true believer" is because ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and illegal occupation of Palestinians are too important for Israel not to continue in their own right.

Hit the nail on the head, Yam.

Indeed we (believers and non believers alike) all must remember, the Bible states God never changes, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

But according to 'and then', God has indeed changed. I pointed this out to 'and then' in another post but he ignored it. There are stunning and relevatory parallels between the pre-Captivity Israel and the current State of Israel. I suggested he read Jeremiah chapter 22, Ezekiel chapter 22, and Habukkak chapter 2. But these arent the only chapters in the prophetic books that contain these types of messages that clues-in its modern readers on how and on why the Jews lost their rights to the land.

[DarkHunter]

Ambush bug you might want to do a bit of reading yourself since there are a few prophecies about Israel being restored which you seem to neglect.

Like

Jeremiah 23:3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.

Isaiah 43:5&6 "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back. Bring my sons from afar and my

daughters from the ends of the earth."

Ezekiel 36:24-28 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do themThen you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Also if you would read the Bible more a pattern would emerge that shows Israel would be disobedient, then be punished by God, normally by foreign occupation and at times exile from the land for a time, but then a reconciliation which would bring them back to the land and the removal of the foreign occupation.

Lastly if anyone is bringing up God changing it is you Ambush Bug. In the Bible it clearly states that God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants the Israelites. By claiming that the Jews lost their right to the land you are changing God's promise to Abraham.

Edited October 12, 2012 by DarkHunter

[+and-then]

All good questions but moot when you take 'and then' seriously when he claims that nothing we can do can prevent or alter the prophecies.

So when he uses prophecies or his so-called belief in the Bible as the excuse to keep doing what Israel is doing, he's contradicting himself. Either policies create the fulfillment of prophecies or they don't. He's repeatedly claimed they don't. So therefore he should embrace a change of policies with no opposition to doing so coming from his religious beliefs. But yet he still can't do that. And the reason he can't, after we drop the false excuse of "true believer" is because ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and illegal occupation of Palestinians are too important for Israel not to continue in their own right.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=235602&st=0&p=4496803&hl=+first%20+world%20+problemsentry4496803 THIS is how I view the plight of the Palestinians on whole. Some injustice to be sure, but as to the majority? Just good PR efforts.

[+and-then]

Ambush bug you might want to do a bit of reading yourself since there are a few prophecies about Israel being restored which you seem to neglect.

Like

Jeremiah 23:3 "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.

Isaiah 43:5&6 "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back. Bring my sons from afar and my

daughters from the ends of the earth."

Ezekiel 36:24-28 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. ²⁵ Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do themThen you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Also if you would read the Bible more a pattern would emerge that shows Israel would be disobedient, then be punished by God, normally by foreign occupation and at times exile from the land for a time, but then a reconciliation which would bring them back to the land and the removal of the foreign occupation.

Lastly if anyone is bringing up God changing it is you Ambush Bug. In the Bible it clearly states that God promised the land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants the Israelites. By claiming that the Jews lost their right to the land you are changing God's promise to Abraham.

Bug believes in "special" Jews. No Zionists need apply for they are not worthy in his book - GOD'S opinion to the contrary notwithstanding....

[Yamato]

http://www.unexplain...s THIS is how I view the plight of the Palestinians on whole. Some injustice to be sure, but as to the majority? Just good PR efforts.

What injustice to be sure?

What good PR efforts?

[+and-then]

What injustice to be sure?

What good PR efforts?

The settlements are, by and large, land grabs by people who see the land as their right. While I agree that the land IS theirs the chance for a peaceful resolution is greatly diminished by these actions and peace should be the priority if it can be achieved in a way that allows the State to exist with a Jewish character.

If you are serious in the question about PR I refer you to PalWatch.org. The Palestinians have put on a full court press for years now, with the complicity of many liberal groups around the world, to convince the world at large of the illegitimacy of Israel to exist as a State in Palestine. It's been so effective that well meaning if somewhat dense young people from the west like Rachel Corrie have come there and died to help people who wouldn't spit on her if she were on fire in any other context of meeting. Your rhetoric about the suffering of the Palestinians is simply mirroring the line they've been spewing , effectively, for years. They want the world to do for them what they cannot do for themselves. And the greatest evil in this is that once they could achieve their State they will IMMEDIATELY begin using it as a fortified beach head to take the rest of the land. And intelligent people can look at the history of this conflict and see the trend but will not admit it, and will be even less inclined to admit they were in error. So Israel just cuts to the chase and says by their actions - if you want the land then take it or shut up.

[Mr.United_Nations]

The fact is that 90% of the world do not like Israel

[+and-then]

The fact is that 90% of the world do not like Israel

So how would you solve this little dilemma, Dick? Edited October 12, 2012 by and then