Piazza St Peter Geometry

[Imaginarynumber1]

The light blue circles shouldn't be in there. The walls form an oval. You can see at the edges where the blue lines diverge from the walls.

The pentagram is a stretch. At most you have an elongated trapezoid. And the hexagram is there for no reason at all.

I think it is clear that this was designed to be a representation of cats and raptors.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Imaginarynumber1

[Taun]

Obviously, Bernini was an agent of the Emperor Palpatine...

[poetofsheba]

Fine , whatever. Why is there a hexagram and a pentagram out front of St Peter's Basilica? Did Jesus like those figures?

Well there aren't really (as others have said) but you can make them fit in if you want to The pentagram was actually used by Pythagoras and his followers to recognize each other - they thought it was a mathematical perfection and it symbolized health. During the early days of Christianity many Christians wrote the letters S-A-L-U-S (safety or health in latin) in the five points and carried it as an amulet or they would write the letters I-E-S-U-S in it - so there is a connection between Christianity and pentagrams

On another note have you ever been to the Piazza? People have always loved optical illusions and Bernini included some at the piazza - if you stand at a small disk (on the map it's on the teal line between the fountain and the obelisk) and look at the colonnade you'll only see one instead of three rows, this is the exact centre of the colonnade and the other columns are in the shadow of the front row. This I believe explains the teal lines on the map

Someone said that the obelisks were just decoration? They actually do have a function.

The first person to really import obelisks from Egypt were Augustus - he placed a sun on top of it them to show that it was dedicated to the sun.

Later after the knowledge of hieroglyphs had been lost, they became more of a decorative item and the popes placed them in certain places with a cross added to the top.

When pilgrimages were more popular many people travelled to Rome and when you entered the city from the northern gates you would walk right into Piazza Del Popolo - on the Piazza is an obelisk as well as a church. (Many of Rome's streets are very straight and you can see quite far.) From there you could look down the street and see another obelisk marking another church for you to visit on your pilgrimage and from that one another etc.

You can still pretty much follow the obelisks around to some of the most important churches in Rome.

[GS1]

The light blue circles shouldn't be in there. The walls form an oval. You can see at the edges where the blue lines diverge from the walls.

The pentagram is a stretch. At most you have an elongated trapezoid. And the hexagram is there for no reason at all.

I think it is clear that this was designed to be a representation of cats and raptors.

That's where you're wrong. It's not an oval nor is it an ellipse. If you overlay a real ellipse you will see just how much it is off. The only reason why the blue circles are extremely slightly divergent from the walls is slight photo distortion.

*SNIP*

Edited October 2, 2012 by Lilly
removed personal insults

[GS1]

No one is doubting that there are geometrical patterns, but mainly that your patterns and interpretations are wrong. It's not uncommon to find geometric patterns in older architecture. Not uncommon AT ALL.

Any you might want to lay of with the insults. It makes you look crass and unable to substantiate your claims.

And it's a raptor, not a crocodile. Have you even seen a crocodile? That raptor looks nothing like a croc...

Oh gee, I wouldn't want to appear crass. That would be so out of place among you graduates of etiquette school. I misidentified a raptor as a crocodile? Oh dear, that IS egregious. There goes my job at the museum.

Edited October 1, 2012 by GS1

[Imaginarynumber1]

you graduates of etiquette school.

[GS1]

Here's a better one. I actually drew this ellipse rather than simply copying an image from the web and overlaying it, because that one was apparently not accurate. I made this with PaintShop Pro ellipse tool. Quite obvious that the circles are WAY more accurately matched to the walls than this ellipse. As I said when I started the thread, the Piazza is very CLOSE to an ellipse, but not a perfect one and that it is in fact two circles joined by curved lines. Imaginarynumber1 apparently spouts off without actually bothering to check that what he says is true or not. Now he has been proven wrong. How embarrassing for him. It could have been avoided if he had only zipped it.

Edited October 1, 2012 by GS1

[GS1]

To be honest, neither an ellipse nor the two circles match up precisely. I concede that it is such a close call that it could be either. However. I maintain that a circle WAS designed into the center of the oval, with it's size defined by the two fountains. When a pentagram is placed in the circle the walls leading toward the basilica are seen to be very precisely based on the leg points of the pentagram, proving that the circle/pentagram were indeed designed in by Bernini. The hexagram may not be part of the design, since it is not actually referenced by any structures, but the pentagram clearly is.

This is not even an important theory to me, just an interesting observation I made. People can take it for what it's worth. Looks like a pentagram was designed in the middle of the piazza, that's all. I don't have to prove it it any way. If you see a pentagram matching up with parts of the piazza then good. If not, I don't particularly care. The thing is clearly a sundial. Just that it may be a sundial with a pentagram at its center. Could mean something, could mean nothing.

Edited October 1, 2012 by GS1

[Lilly]

Do not engage in personal insults. Stooping to using ad hom remarks does not help support anyones hypothesis.

[monk 56]

I agree there is no sacred geometry in St. Peter's Sq., i always have, however i'm not sure that being able to translate Hieroglyphs was really lost, the Coptic church was in Egypt very early, and monks keep secrets, we all would like access into Vatican Library!

As really this thread is about sacred geometry, that i also feel has no bearing to this, i will go back to my thread that will take a long time to finish, you know where to find me to debate, i have chosen today for my last thread section about astronomy, for today is an anniversary of Opus Dei that used exactly the same alignment as the Vatican Obelisk put there by Pope Sixtus V.

Links below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei

http://en.wikipedia...._about_Opus_Dei

I don't believe that there is any Pentagram sacred geometry in St. Peter's Sq., the Pentagram is not satanic anyway, most of this comes from Eliphas Levi, who wasn't exactly ancient!

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Eliphas_Levi

Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer established Opus Dei on 2nd October 1928 in Madrid, he says it was because of a vision, i say it was because he wanted a Sirius alignment at location, Egyptian sunrise day marker chosen, as Sun rose, Sirius was culminating in middle of sky, astronomy graph below:-

http://2012forum.com...=6758&mode=view

I will not be posting on GS1 threads again!

Please note Egyptian Dreams have not engaged with me, but GS1 has so much dispute!

Edited October 2, 2012 by monk 56

[kmt_sesh]

I hesitate to join one of GS1's threads, for reasons which are painfully obvious to you all. I'm also not terribly well versed on Vatican history, as interesting as it is. Nevertheless, some posters have contributed useful comments in this discussion, and I thought I might toss in some remarks.

A recent issue of KMT magazine happens to have a really interesting article on the erecting of the obelisk in St. Peter's Square (Spring 2012, pages 37-51). Although the precise origin of the obelisk is not well understood—meaning to which Egyptian historical period it belonged or who commissioned it—Caligula had it erected in his favorite place, the Circus Maximus. It was there, nearby the obelisk, where Peter is said to have been crucified, upside-down on the cross.

That is why the obelisk interested the Vatican. Constantine razed the Circus Maximus and built the original Basilica of St. Peter on its foundations, with the obelisk still standing. However, the new basilica was begun in 1506 CE when the cornerstone was laid by Pope Julius II, by which time the old site at the Circus Maximus had fallen into ruins and the obelisk nearly forgotten. It was suggested in the early sixteenth century that the obelisk be moved to the new site. This fell under the sponsorship of Pope Sixtus V, who was very much interested in maintaining and glorifying Christiandom's architecture.

Domenico Fontana was the architect who won the contract to move and re-erect the obelisk. How he managed to do this is a fascinating tale and well told in the KMT article, but it's not the subject of this discussion. Simply put, the main reason the obelisk was moved to the new Basilica of St. Peter to become the centerpiece of the Square, is that the obelisk had witnessed the crucifixion and martyrdom of St. Peter. It was a natural fit.

The early Church delighted in claiming the monuments and icons of pagan religions for its own purposes. The obelisk in the Square may have been a pagan symbol, but note the ornamentation the Church added to the top to convert it to a Christian symbol. The Church certainly did not want to promote or glorify the ancient pagan religions of Egypt or Mesopotamia or Greece or Rome—it wanted to show its prowess in subverting them.

Edit: Monk, I'm a Moderator at Egyptian Dreams. How long have you been there?

Edited October 2, 2012 by kmt_sesh

[poetofsheba]

A recent issue of KMT magazine happens to have a really interesting article on the erecting of the obelisk in St. Peter's Square (Spring 2012, pages 37-51). Although the precise origin of the obelisk is not well understood—meaning to which Egyptian historical period it belonged or who commissioned it—Caligula had it erected in his favorite place, the Circus Maximus. It was there, nearby the obelisk, where Peter is said to have been crucified, upside-down on the cross.

That is why the obelisk interested the Vatican. Constantine razed the Circus Maximus and built the original Basilica of St. Peter on its foundations, with the obelisk still standing. However, the new basilica was begun in 1506 CE when the cornerstone was laid by Pope Julius II, by which time the old site at the Circus Maximus had fallen into ruins and the obelisk nearly forgotten. It was suggested in the early sixteenth century that the obelisk be moved to the new site. This fell under the sponsorship of Pope Sixtus V, who was very much interested in maintaining and glorifying Christiandom's architecture.

Actually this is a little of

Circus Maximus was built on the Aventine Hill and you can still see some of the earthworks today. Augustus did import an obelisk and placed it on the spina of the Circus, where it stood for many years until it fell during the war between the Byzantines and the Goths for control of Rome. In 1587 the area was excavated and the obelisk was found, repaired and moved to Piazza del Popolo where it still stands.

Caligula built his own Circus in (what would become) the Vatican and he ordered the transport of an obelisk from Alexandria, (which Augustus had originally transported to Alexandria possibly from Heliopolis), so that he could place it on the spina of his Circus. When Nero took over as emperor he named the circus after himself, but the obelisk was allowed to stand where it was.

It's true that Nero's Circus was destroyed to build the Basilica di S. Pietro and the obelisk allowed to stand where it was until 1586 when Sixtus V ordered Domenico Fontana to move the obelisk to piazza di S. Pietro so it would be the first thing one saw when entering the piazza.

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt Sesh,

I was interested in talking to Egyptian Dream member that also are members of this forum, my interest is hermetic and hybrid religions that come after Egyptian study, i never thought of joining Egyptian Dreams, but value the knowledge there about classical religions, i study from about 1500 ad going forward purely because of Delta T problems with earlier centuries, it is enough keeping up with who was using what calendar during this time. ie Julian or Gregorian, ha ha!

I'm interested in the spread of hermeticism, with its astrology and symbolism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism

There is always an orb or margin to electional astrology of 1 degree or four minutes of time, interestingly there seems great interest in Sirius and Alnilam by these groups.

In Bath UK a key was placed in the Street plan, many esoteric groups like key symbolism as the Vatican does.

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5217&mode=view

It is possible but i'm not saying there is key hole symbolism to St Peter's Square.

http://www.charleslocksmith.com/R-Keyhole%2057519.jpg

The foundation stone of King's Circus in Bath UK was laid on 7th February 1754, link below:-

http://www.buildinghistory.org/bath/georgian/circus.shtml

These groups seem to mark the day by ancient Greek day marker being sunset previous, midnight day marker that emerged with the invention of the clock, or sunrise day marker that the Egyptians and Romans used.

The Foundation stone in Bath UK has an ancient Greek day marker, being sunset previous to 7th February 1754, as Sun set Sirius was rising in the East, graph below:-

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5220&mode=view

Obviously at the moment i'm going through world history and 1000's of examples.

Another of interest would be obelisk of Arles completed on 26 March 1675, probably a Roman obelisk, link below:-

http://highskyblue.web.fc2.com/arles.htm

Again ancient Greek daymarker, as Sun set, Sirius was culminating in middle of sky, graph below:-

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4703&mode=view

I'm interested in Siena Cathedral that has the picture on link below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hermes_mercurius_trismegistus_siena_cathedral.jpg

[Harte]

I hesitate to join one of GS1's threads, for reasons which are painfully obvious to you all.

You said a mouthful!

A recent issue of KMT magazine happens to have a really interesting article on the erecting of the obelisk in St. Peter's Square (Spring 2012, pages 37-51).

Bet ya'll didn't know that Mr. Sesh had his own magazine, didja?

You should see this month's centerfold!

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

You said a mouthful!

I was behind the curve on that one. At the time I submitted my first post in this discussion, I didn't know GS1 had been banned. No wonder things seem more peaceful.

Bet ya'll didn't know that Mr. Sesh had his own magazine, didja?

You should see this month's centerfold!

Harte

It is indeed a sight to behold! I'm wearing nothing but a coquettish smile and a strategically positioned ankh.

[monk 56]

Hi Scribe Kmt Sesh,

No doubt about GS1 you would say "The boy's ear's are on his back, he hears when he is beaten", trouble is i don't hear anything but silence, ha ha!

I love your humour, especially the funny intended forgery about Egyptian giants.

No doubt the captions of "Majestic 12 Operative" is part of that humour!

I'd like to add some humour myself about esoteric operatives for "Chicago boys", the oldest lodge i know of in that area would be Oriental Lodge No. 33, established on 9th October 1845, but i could be wrong, link below:-

http://www.oriental33.org/

Ancient Greek day marker applied, being sunset on 8th October 1845, as Sirius was on Nadir, ha ha!

[kmt_sesh]

Hi Scribe Kmt Sesh,

No doubt about GS1 you would say "The boy's ear's are on his back, he hears when he is beaten", trouble is i don't hear anything but silence, ha ha!

I love your humour, especially the funny intended forgery about Egyptian giants.

No doubt the captions of "Majestic 12 Operative" is part of that humour!

I'd like to add some humour myself about esoteric operatives for "Chicago boys", the oldest lodge i know of in that area would be Oriental Lodge No. 33, established on 9th October 1845, but i could be wrong, link below:-

http://www.oriental33.org/

Ancient Greek day marker applied, being sunset on 8th October 1845, as Sirius was on Nadir, ha ha!

LOL That "Boy's ears" proverb is one of my favorites.

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt Seth,

Sadly with GS1, "One falsehood spoils a thousand truths"

Now if he had started a thread on sacred geometry of "The Pentagon", i would have to agree that it was built with PHI in mind, 5 storeys tall, 5 sections deep, 10 compartments:-

http://androidspin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Pentagon.jpg

I love the groundbreaking ceremony, on 11th Semptember 1941, a day dedicated to Thoth in Coptic Calendar!

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt_Sesh,

We are very lucky to have a scholar such as yourself on this forum, it is great that you can translate ancient egyptian into coptic and explain to members, although i have a problem with your humour, indeed if we went back a couple of centuries with universities, a classical education was the most important, in America this is called Greek Letter Organizations, Greek and Latin proverbs were often used in a classical and Renaissance scholarly approach, please forgive "Chicago Boys" reference that i made in humour, that obviously you are not connected to, but was used in black humour with your caption of Magestic 12 Operative, obviously humerous, LOL!

When we go into history we are prone to Latin and Egyptian proverbs and symbolism, obviously there is another way to understand Phi with The Pentagon, it's all about the power of five in beliefs, Phi= 5^.5*.5+.5, as shown on link below:-

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4902&mode=view

University study is prone to Greek Letter organizations, like below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities_in_North_America

Surely you have trouble, and would like to keep away from pictures like below involving the Mystical Seven at Missouri University?:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MysticalSeven2005.jpg

11th September is very interesting with Chicago Boys, it involves when Pinochet came to power in Chile, very interesting in symbolism!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Boys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilean_coup_of_1973

Very interesting as we value Thout, isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thout

http://www.copticchurch.net/easter.html

[kmt_sesh]

Hi Kmt_Sesh,

We are very lucky to have a scholar such as yourself on this forum, it is great that you can translate ancient egyptian into coptic and explain to members, although i have a problem with your humour, indeed if we went back a couple of centuries with universities, a classical education was the most important, in America this is called Greek Letter Organizations, Greek and Latin proverbs were often used in a classical and Renaissance scholarly approach, please forgive "Chicago Boys" reference that i made in humour, that obviously you are not connected to, but was used in black humour with your caption of Magestic 12 Operative, obviously humerous, LOL!

When we go into history we are prone to Latin and Egyptian proverbs and symbolism, obviously there is another way to understand Phi with The Pentagon, it's all about the power of five in beliefs, Phi= 5^.5*.5+.5, as shown on link below:-

...

No offense was taken with the "Chicago Boys" reference so don't give it another thought. I'm not sure what you mean by "Majestic 12 Operative," however. That is only my rank at UM based on the number of posts I've written over the years. I have no control over that. Whatever the number of posts is, if you reach it at some point, you also will become a Majestic 12 Operative.

LOL I was a bit nonplussed that you have a problem with my humor. In all my years of posting on various message boards, no one has ever had a problem with my sense of humor. Pray, please do elaborate on that one. I'm dying to know!

I must confess I have no interest in secret organizations, cults, and esoteric brotherhoods. I have no background in those areas to discuss them with you. My interest lies in the archaeology and research of the ancient Near East. For the record, while I can translate Egyptian hieroglyphs, I have no training or background in the Coptic language aside from its linguistic context in the history of Egypt. I couldn't read a sentence of Coptic. I transliterate and translate hieroglyphs into English. If I really worked at it I might be able to do it to some extent into German, but in the end I'd probably embarrass myself and offend some Germans.

[Harte]

In all my years of posting on various message boards, no one has ever had a problem with my sense of humor.

Maybe because we're still waiting to see it?

Harte

[Imaginarynumber1]

Maybe because we're still waiting to see it?

Harte

[Golden Duck]

...

When we go into history we are prone to Latin and Egyptian proverbs and symbolism, obviously there is another way to understand Phi with The Pentagon, it's all about the power of five in beliefs, Phi= 5^.5*.5+.5, as shown on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=4902&mode=view

...

Which cultures were the earliest users of decimal fractions?

Edited October 7, 2012 by Mangoze

[kmt_sesh]

Maybe because we're still waiting to see it?

Harte

Ha!

Zing!

[monk 56]

Before everyone jumps in, lets see that the amount of posts and credibility of senior members and esteemed moderators are not helped by the caption of "Majestic 12 Operative", it has not been established that it really exists, and although i study secret societies, that doesn't extend to perhaps Pseudoscience and the possibility of "Majestic 12 Operatives" and UFO research!

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Majestic_12

No doubt members see the need for reform of "caption" for many esteemed members, and thus i apologize to Kmt_Sesh, but would be a common mistake by a new member, i think Kmt_Sesh would agree that mental confusion exists regarding long esteemed members and "Sigils or Captions", and this is at the heart of "my humour", i was wrong, but it is a forum problem not connected to me!!!

Edited October 7, 2012 by monk 56