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Whiteplume

Experiences Change Minds?

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Watch this movie and it will surely change your attitude towards all you believe in hauntings,ghosts etc.

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For me the experiences lead to the curiosity of finding the truth of what ever the subject. I don't believe in anything until it thrown in face and then I do a lot of speculation. Life is full of mysteries to be reconciled with each other and UM is an excellent source of finding people to share every kind of subject and expand your perception of what is the reality of it.

This is my story of how the mystical part of life started to make me interested in the unexplained. I've witnessed other things far more mysterious in the physical world to me then the ghostly phenomenons but I will share my ghostly beginnings aspect since you asked about ghosts. It did change my whole view on life as I try to solve the other mysteries.

I was about 4 when my apparently healthy but very old great grandfather died suddenly. It was my first experience of a family death and I got told the usual he's in heaven thing. I cried because I thought I'd never see him again and I was told I was too young to go see him at the service and it was during my bedtime. But I dreamed I was there! I saw his body and people there and he was floating above with me like a shiny version of himself. I saw something or someone else there with us like a beautiful colorful shining star. He told me not to cry that dead people aren't really dead they just change back into what they really are and there's different places they can go. He told me I could go to places while alive in the same way although most people don't do it until they die. I asked what the star thing was and he told me it was an angel. I told my family and my grandmother told me it would be better not to tell people about my dream and that God works in mysterious ways.

My next experience with a death of a loved one was my grandfather when I was 7. No one suspected he died because he was still younger. That deceased grandfather never came to me in any dreams but SOMETHING came in real life told me about him.

I saw a mistlike thing with really weird dark big eyes while playing in a wood pile in the woods and being a kid I thought- neat it's a Casper or something! I started questioning him and he didn't answer my questions and I got scared. Then it "spoke" to me in thought and said he was my grandad's father that I never knew. He told me he came because it was important for me to tell my dad that my grandfather was dead. I always believed in a land of the dead as I called it where I saw my great grandfather in my dream but I didn't know they could come to us while awake -double neat!!! I ran home and told my mother. She called my grandfather's house, no answer, then the neighbors, then the police since the neighbors said they didn't see him and he was supposed to be home. Dad got off early and we went to my grandfather's house. He had been dead for three days, yuk! That was the proof I needed for myself that some if not all people don't really die like most grownups understand it happens. I knew in my heart, my grandfather was never really that horrible, stinky yukky thing stuck to the floor but it was only a body something like a broken robot!

I was really young but that was the day when I truly became devoted to understand life, death and the those other places or connections that somehow exist beyond the understanding of modern science or religions.

As I got older I became skeptical of my own belief system, mainly because I was exposed to more science as well as a vast variety of religious doctrines. I always try to analyze events for more then face value.

Was is it just a manifestation of some kind of telepathy of subconscious or group subconscious that comes to you in a way that you understand?

Some religious views would say it was a demon since it said it was my great grandfather and the dead are dead?

Was that misty form with really big eyes actually what some people call aliens?

Was I just delusional and the message being true was just a coincidence?

I was really young but that was first day when I began a quest to try understand life, death and the those other places or connections that somehow exist beyond the understanding of modern science and religions.

Many years later, I lost my other grandfather. I was closer to him than anyone and I was devestated. He had a long lingering death and I wasn't at his side when it happened. I felt so guilty I wasn't there and would be so alone without him. Just before his funeral when I was crying I saw him but transparent, younger and healthy and he spoke very quickly and disappeared. Don't cry, it's ok ...and for crying out loud you have to tell your mother, "There are other people here". I was surprised and confused, I thought I've just lost my sanity for sure!

I reluctly told my mother after the funeral at her house. She cried in happiness and started jumping up and down saying "My God he did it this is wonderful!" She told him to give her that message of those exact words if he could to let her know for certain that people live after death. He agreed. She said they were doing a Houdini like experiment with a message what ever that is. She wanted to know if he was able to reunite with her beloved Grandma and Uncle so she could rest assured in seeing them again too...... Only my mother would ask a dying man to speak a certain phrase into a tape recorder after death after watching some stupid psychic show to prove something to her! He obviously couldn't do the message through the recording but came to me with it. My dad just said, "Thank God. Now we can turn off that damnedable tape recorder instead of me getting up in the middle of the night to rewind and listen to bunch of blank tape!" I laughed and my dad just said to my mom "See I told you, you don't need a tape to know the answer to that!"

I believe that it was my grandad but on still the skeptic side of things I can't test it to prove it. Could have been a telepathic connection from my dad in some way so he could shut off a tape recorder for good? LOL

My grandad has came to me in dreams after that but usually years apart. It's like stupid dreams suddenly end/ or no dreams then suddenly I am in that other world and he's there. We can talk, walk, float, change what we look like, he even showed me his first car with a rumble seat. We meet other people and we have fun but then it always ends up the same. By the same, he gives a message of advise on how to deal with a tragedy, death or something that just happened that I didn't know about.

The dreams are always come a few days before the event in the message except once. That happened at the same time as the dream. I really wanted to stay in that dream place but Grandpa told me that my mom's beloved dog was having a heart attack and would die -call her NOW if you don't she will die too! I saw the dog with my granddad in the end of the dream. I woke up and called her. My dad answered, the dog just died as I was on the phone. Mom was hysterical and having a heart attack but wouldn't go to the hospital. I told my dad to tell her I just saw Grandpa and the dog is with him and his message of advise -dogs can go to heaven too! She had just freaked to my dad about not knowing if animals died permenently and gave herself a small heart attack while the dog was dying. She finally went to the hospital after she calmed down some. She was getting worse and worse and wouldn't listen to my dad at all. She only calmed down after my call. I think she would have had a much worse heart attack if I didn't call like my Grandpa told me.

I have dreams with my grandmother and strangers too but it's always that same world and when your in it and most of the people are deceased although sometimes one will say I'm like you. Its like you wake up in another reality you go to sleep there and wake up in. I noticed there can be buildings and things there like here but they are different because it's like the people there can make the enviroment appear as what they want it to be. People there can even teach each others what they know and just like my grandad showed me his first car -poof-see it first hand and sit in it! Awesome!!!

My grandmother had a near death experience when she was young. When she was in her 90's she told me she was ready and wanted to go back there to stay and told me all this stuff I needed to know if she is gone...I didn't believe she'd die but she died in her sleep that night with a BIG smile on her face and looked beautiful when I came to see her the next morning. I never saw anyone die naturally that way they said her heart just stopped even though she was healthy. She went to sleep in that dream place and stayed there just like she said. I truly think this is what's meant by the kiss of God.

She came to me in dreams more than my Grandad ever did. Probably because she still worries about the whole world not just family :)

Whatever ghosts really are they do come to people in the physical world as well, which when you have others present that witness the same thing it is much more interesting to try to explain it.

How Lovely It Was To Read Your Story .. Thanks For Sharing ..

I Believe You .. And I Believe That Our Deceased Loved Ones Visit Us In Our Dreams For A Clear Purpose ..

You Are So Lucky To Be Able To Experience It So Clearly And Plainly :)

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I grew up reading every UFO, Bigfoot, ESP and Believe It or Not book I could find. I was sure all of it was real because people aren't stupid and frauds would be exposed. Surely those people bought Chariots of the Gods because it was all true!

Then I discovered people are stupid and the things we experience are hard to explain sometimes. Photos were easily faked even a hundred years ago. Legends (i.e. lying) are profitable and some people desperately want fame and attention more than they want money. Isn't it better to pretend that supernatural things exist than find out whether they really exist?

Nearly all of my beloved supernatural tales from my childhood have now been debunked or had reasonable explanations.

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I grew up reading every UFO, Bigfoot, ESP and Believe It or Not book I could find. I was sure all of it was real because people aren't stupid and frauds would be exposed. Surely those people bought Chariots of the Gods because it was all true!

Then I discovered people are stupid and the things we experience are hard to explain sometimes. Photos were easily faked even a hundred years ago. Legends (i.e. lying) are profitable and some people desperately want fame and attention more than they want money. Isn't it better to pretend that supernatural things exist than find out whether they really exist?

Nearly all of my beloved supernatural tales from my childhood have now been debunked or had reasonable explanations.

There are real mysteries to be solved and I take heart with your disappointments. You can only look for the little known facts that somehow inspired the liars and money seekers. That is a very hard thing to do, time consuming and often very misleading. Being sceptical is good when you seek an answer to a persoal mystery but if you seek to find one you will find more deceit because those are the same people who are seeking material rewards. Something will happen to you out of the blue one day and it will be real. Build on that and seek an answer for you. It leads you to a more rewarding path of discovery than reading someone elses blown up stories with very little truth :)

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Something will happen to you out of the blue one day and it will be real.

No, nothing will happen to me. I carry a camera (with video modes) with me at all times and I know how to use it. This prevents anything supernatural from happening to me.

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No, nothing will happen to me. I carry a camera (with video modes) with me at all times and I know how to use it. This prevents anything supernatural from happening to me.

I wouldn't say that prevents you at all. Don't give up hope in something you'd like to discover.

I don't agree that its better to pretend because then the real things go unresearched.

We really need more sceptic but open minded people like you out there with cameras :)

Lots of people have taken pictures but usually it doesn't mean anything except to them because only they and who ever was with them know it was a real "something". Maybe you are just looking for something that you might never find. I also don't agree that its better to pretend because then the real things go unresearched.

Unexplained things seem to happen more to people when not looking for it. Maybe this is because they are not so intense and not looking for a specific something, so they actually observe more by not looking for something else in the wrong place. Don't want to be looking in the sky when something is behind you.

Just be open minded and when something does happen, I'm sure you will be the good sceptic that seeks the truth :)

You will also discover when you dig deeper into a personal experience you will learn more on your own and from others who share in similar ones. A domino effect can start to happen and you will have a lot more to deal with. When you get to that point it sometimes brings way more then you ever really wanted know! Other times you may discover it wasn't anything or you will end up clueless. Even then its fun to do the research to discover what the real truth is :)

I do hope you see something some day and get a good video!

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I wouldn't say that prevents you at all.

It's well established that paranormal phenomena that happen regularly tend to disappear once properly investigated.

Don't give up hope in something you'd like to discover.

Why do you think I'm carrying the camera?

You will also discover when you dig deeper into a personal experience you will learn more on your own and from others who share in similar ones. A domino effect can start to happen and you will have a lot more to deal with. When you get to that point it sometimes brings way more then you ever really wanted know! Other times you may discover it wasn't anything or you will end up clueless. Even then its fun to do the research to discover what the real truth is :)

Your life advice doesn't jibe with my decades of presumed paranormal experiences.

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It's well established that paranormal phenomena that happen regularly tend to disappear once properly investigated.

Why do you think I'm carrying the camera?

Your life advice doesn't jibe with my decades of presumed paranormal experiences.

This is true because the majority are not paranormal.

Its like if you discover a beehive its not hard to find a queen bee but you will never find one in the open field. But you can follow a bee to find the hive.

I'm sorry you did not find what you are seeking so far but it is a random luck in many cases.

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No, nothing will happen to me. I carry a camera (with video modes) with me at all times and I know how to use it. This prevents anything supernatural from happening to me.

ROFLMAO

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I wouldn't say that prevents you at all. Don't give up hope in something you'd like to discover.

I don't agree that its better to pretend because then the real things go unresearched.

We really need more sceptic but open minded people like you out there with cameras :)

Lots of people have taken pictures but usually it doesn't mean anything except to them because only they and who ever was with them know it was a real "something". Maybe you are just looking for something that you might never find. I also don't agree that its better to pretend because then the real things go unresearched.

Unexplained things seem to happen more to people when not looking for it. Maybe this is because they are not so intense and not looking for a specific something, so they actually observe more by not looking for something else in the wrong place. Don't want to be looking in the sky when something is behind you.

Just be open minded and when something does happen, I'm sure you will be the good sceptic that seeks the truth :)

You will also discover when you dig deeper into a personal experience you will learn more on your own and from others who share in similar ones. A domino effect can start to happen and you will have a lot more to deal with. When you get to that point it sometimes brings way more then you ever really wanted know! Other times you may discover it wasn't anything or you will end up clueless. Even then its fun to do the research to discover what the real truth is :)

I do hope you see something some day and get a good video!

What Is The Point Of Carrying A Camera Around??

Even If Something DOES Happen, And Say You Manage To Get It On Tape Or Pic .. Show It To Someone Or Post It On Here And In A Blink Of An Eye You'll Be Called A Hoaxer, Fraud Or Troll ..

There's Been Plenty Of Examples Of It On Here .. And While I Agree 99% of Pics And Vids Nowdays Are Fakes, There's Always At Least That 1% That Can't Be Explained By Anyone .. Yet No One Will Think Twice About It, But Simply Call It A Fake ..

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Because spiritual belief almost always produces more measurable physical benefits than a lack of belief, i always recommend belief,

This statement is in itself your belief and not a fact.

I know many people in the same situation To utilise evidences effectively requires a complex inter locking set of knowledge and thought processes. Most people dont have this; they either accept creation or evolution based on what they are told by others eg schools experts etc. Few modern people have the slightest idea about evoutionary process, but they accept it because they have faith in science and it is taught to them from childhood as fact .

Nothing wrong with that, but they dont have any better rationale for believing in evolution than a person educated in childhood that god is the creator, does. They are basicallylly accepting what they are taught by others, and what is the staus quo . Oh sure, evolution is the correct model, but that is not why people accept it.

This is simply not a good equation you draw here.

You are trying to claim that faith in religion is equal to "faith" in science.

While faith in religion offers no proof and no correlations with several fields.

Science offers a myriad of proofs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when you look at evolution for example you notice that you find proof of it in several fields that come together to form the theory of evolution. Paleontology, geology, biology, etc it all comes together. You don't have to have "faith" in anything or take anyones word for it. You can simply look at the proof yourself and know it to be true. If you don't believe in evolution you don't believe in biology, paleontology, geology, and many more fields. This doesn't make sense.

No one is simply accepting what anybody says in science, and no one is asking ppl to simply accept what they say. That is the basic premise of science. You must understand this.

It is religion that asks ppl to simply accept what it says without proof. Big difference.

The proof is out there and science is simply pointing it out.

Edited by Render

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Must point out there's a big difference between personal faith and BLIND faith.Beliefs as well as scientific theories can change over time, you only work with what you and others observe to be true.

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No it is not that simple sometimes it takes a long time to face the reality of gods existence.For others it is forced upon them in a flash by gods direct, personal and clear interventions in their lives. I mean when god introduces himself, says he is about to save your life, and then proceeds to do so, what sort of fool would not then know and recognise the existence of god. We can debate the actual name god, and the nature of god, but not his existence. God is jus t a name. I prefer the cosmic/universal consciousness. But god is more familiar to most.

When god is proven real, it is irrational to insist it cannot be.

The example of the money is a good one. God does this for me ALL the time when i have a genuine need for money say to help other people. He just manifests it for me. On the ground, on the floor, in a plastic bag in the boot of my car, or via other instruments. He will tell me to pick certain lotto numbers or play a certain pokie machine and I will win what i need. Or a person will come up to me in the street and say, "god told me to give you this." and hand me money. The biggest amount i got like this was a thousand dollars.

It is NOT irrational when god explains what he is doing, and why, and when there is a clear and logical connection between cause and effect. It is irrational to deny that causality and to look for other explanations merely to continue denial of gods existence. At some time a logical, rational, and sane man, faced with this level of interaction with god, has to accept god's existence no matter how much they may not want to..

God is utterly mundane, once you get to know it.

I don't like "mundane".... But I havnt known it as long as you have ;)

Edited by Seeker79

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This statement is in itself your belief and not a fact.

This is simply not a good equation you draw here.

You are trying to claim that faith in religion is equal to "faith" in science.

While faith in religion offers no proof and no correlations with several fields.

Science offers a myriad of proofs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when you look at evolution for example you notice that you find proof of it in several fields that come together to form the theory of evolution. Paleontology, geology, biology, etc it all comes together. You don't have to have "faith" in anything or take anyones word for it. You can simply look at the proof yourself and know it to be true. If you don't believe in evolution you don't believe in biology, paleontology, geology, and many more fields. This doesn't make sense.

No one is simply accepting what anybody says in science, and no one is asking ppl to simply accept what they say. That is the basic premise of science. You must understand this.

It is religion that asks ppl to simply accept what it says without proof. Big difference.

The proof is out there and science is simply pointing it out.

Actually you are wrong. There is considerable, and growing, modern empirical scientific evidence that spiritual belief improves life outcomes; from longer life (up to a decade in many people) through decreased pain, to less depression suicides, and a more happy/ healthy life in old age. Many, many studies from all around the world confirm this.

It is arguable that some outcomes result from lifestyles associated with belief, but even there it is the belief which creates the lifestyle and hence the benefits. Others are a psychologially induced physical outcome resulting from lower stress levels, a sense of belonging etc..

I'm not claiming anything about RELIGION. Religion isn't necesary at all, only faith. Science and particularly medicine is a huge benefit I wouldn't be alive if not for very modern medicine But spiritual health is complementary to physical health and adds to ones total well being. Suicide is now the greatest cause of death in Australia in under 40s, yet we have one of the best medical and health systems in the world. Go figure.

I AM an evolutionist. What does that have to do with spirituality or faith? My argument is scientifically based on scientifically established evidences. That faith, (whether founded on a truth or not) has beneficial impacts. That alone is a logical reason to have faith. There is plenty of room for faith (and for god) in a scientific world, and in an evolved one. God itself is a product of evolution, given the reality of evoution.

However most human beings do take modern science on faith. They do not understand it. That also works. Of course the science is sound, but people would rely on it whether or not they had any knowledge of the science or not. A child grows up learning how to turn a light on without the slightest conception of the science which creates this effect. They don't need to know how it all works to make it work. It works for them if they have enough faith to turn the switch on. Without that faith to make/encourage them to flick the switch, all the science behind the light is useless.

If i had not had faith in my cardiac surgeons competency I'd be dead now, because I would not have let them operate on me, cut my heart out from my ribcage, fix it and replace it. Would you, unless you had faith in their competency?

Edited by Mr Walker

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Actually you are wrong. There is considerable, and growing, modern empirical scientific evidence that spiritual belief improves life outcomes; from longer life (up to a decade in many people) through decreased pain, to less depression suicides, and a more happy/ healthy life in old age. Many, many studies from all around the world confirm this.

It is arguable that some outcomes result from lifestyles associated with belief, but even there it is the belief which creates the lifestyle and hence the benefits. Others are a psychologially induced physical outcome resulting from lower stress levels, a sense of belonging etc..

Im not claiming anything about RELIGION Religion isnt necesary at all, only faith Science and particulalry medicine is a hufge benefit I wouldnt be alive if not for very modern medicine But spiritual health is complementary to physical halth and ads to ones total well being. Suicide is now the greatest cause of death in Australia in under 40s yet we have one of the best medical and health systems in the world. Go figure.

I AM an evolutionist. What does that have to do with spirituality or faith? My argument is scientifically based on scientifically established evidences. That faith, (whether founded on a truth or not) has beneficial impacts. That alone is a logical reason to have faith.

However most human beings do take modern science on faith. They do not understand it. That also works. Of course the science is sound, but people would rely on it whether or not they had any knowldge of the science or not. A child grows up learning how ot turn a light on. They dont need to know how it all works to make it work. It works for them if they have enough faith to turn the switch on.

No.

There have been studies about praying and believing and healing yes. When re-doing those studies it has been concluded there are no real added benefits, other than the occasional placebo effect. This doesn't cause a statistical significance.

In some cases it has even been found to worsen the condition of the patient because they start to suffer from performance anxiety where the patient feels they have to get better, which causes stress and unrealistic expectations.

It holds no real merit.

A child grows up learning how ot turn a light on. They dont need to know how it all works to make it work. It works for them if they have enough faith to turn the switch on.

please stop using the words "faith" and "knowledge" like they are equal.

The child has no need for faith in the switch, it simply can rely on the knowledge that flipping the switch causes the light or the reverse.

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No.

There have been studies about praying and believing and healing yes. When re-doing those studies it has been concluded there are no real added benefits, other than the occasional placebo effect. This doesn't cause a statistical significance.

In some cases it has even been found to worsen the condition of the patient because they start to suffer from performance anxiety where the patient feels they have to get better, which causes stress and unrealistic expectations.

It holds no real merit.

please stop using the words "faith" and "knowledge" like they are equal.

The child has no need for faith in the switch, it simply can rely on the knowledge that flipping the switch causes the light or the reverse.

No. I am talking about studies which demonstrate the physical effects of faith on human physical and psychological health Nothing to do with praying. You dont have to pray, just have faith. One example is the level of perceived pain (the only important measure of pain) People with faith register considerably lower levels of physical pain (up to 50% in some cases).

For most people faith and knowledg are different. But factually the outcomes can be equal. You just have to have faith :innocent:

In the case of the child, faith and knowledge are somewhat synonymous, but the child does not, and cannot know the light will come on. For example without their knowledge a fuse might be blown.

It has observed a pattern of behaviour connecting switch and light, but has no knowledge of why this occurs. Thus it switches the switch, based on faith that the light will come on, not knowledge (the light may actually not come on, so the child can't know that it will) Hence early people observed the path of the sun in the sky They had no kmowledge about the sun but they had faith in its movements and created whole religious beliefs around that faith Their seasons, lives behaviours etc revolved around that faith.It worked for them.

Observation and deduction does not create knowledge but faith. For example, to get in an aeroplane relies in faith that it will fly, for every person who does not have a full comprehension of every part of the physics of flight. How many people who ever get in a plane have ever heard of the bernoulli/venturi effect, let alone understand the principles behind it which allow a plane to fly?

Edited by Mr Walker

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Have you ever had an experience that changed your mind regarding the paranormal? For instance, did you once believe in ghosts, but an event changed your mind? Or, conversely, did you once not believe, but then have a ghostly experience? I'd love to hear your stories.

I tihnk that depends on how hardset you are in your beliefs that something paranormal could happen.. or not happen. IF you are of the belief that NO such thing paranormal could happen EVER.. then you would simply justify/rationalizing it in a way that would suit your personal belief system that what you experienced was something OTHER than the paranormal.

But if you are of the belief that YES paranomal events can happen ..then over all .... you may entertain that individual events could possibly have other earthly explanations.. but keep your belief that the paranormal exists.

IF you on are the fence.. then there is always the possibility that something paranomal could happen. . thus you could always believe that you experienced something paranormal. Just my thoughts.

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No. I am talking about studies which demonstrate the physical effects of faith on human physical and psychological health Nothing to do with praying. You dont have to pray, just have faith. One example is the level of perceived pain (the only important measure of pain) People with faith register considerably lower levels of physical pain (up to 50% in some cases).

That study was flawed. It only showed that people who claimed to have faith believed they were experiencing less pain.

There was a similar study in acupuncture. People who were told they were being treated by a highly trained and experienced acupuncturist wrote down lower pain levels than those who were told they were being treated by a student. They were in fact being treated by the same acupuncturist. They had more "faith" in the experienced one.

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That study was flawed. It only showed that people who claimed to have faith believed they were experiencing less pain.

There was a similar study in acupuncture. People who were told they were being treated by a highly trained and experienced acupuncturist wrote down lower pain levels than those who were told they were being treated by a student. They were in fact being treated by the same acupuncturist. They had more "faith" in the experienced one.

Placebo effect has everything to do with faith alone. Its effect is on a subconscious level and it aligns itself to the mind and the body does whatever it needs to do to make it true. Usually just deadening a neuron transmission, but sometimes people have been cured of real diseases by this same kind of faith.

We don't have to know how it works as long as it works. The desired effect happened through a belief system. This is why we shouldn't try to discourage other people's faith if it helps them.

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i believe it could be true, although i sometimes wonder if there is a difference between what we refer to as a ghost and a spirit. i haven't had any experiences with ghosts but i would love to see one! would i then be a believer? probably, but i also know that sort of evidence is personal and cannot be transmitted as proof to anyone else. still, i would enjoy the 'knowing' for my own reasons.

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Observation and deduction does not create knowledge but faith. For example, to get in an aeroplane relies in faith that it will fly, for every person who does not have a full comprehension of every part of the physics of flight. How many people who ever get in a plane have ever heard of the bernoulli/venturi effect, let alone understand the principles behind it which allow a plane to fly?

You can try and give all the examples you want it doesn't change the fact that faith is not an issue in those cases.

For a plane to fly there is no need for faith, there is knowledge of how basic flight works..airflow, wings, all that and the knowledge that pilots study these principles and practice it. There is knowledge of statistical calculation that one out of n pilots/planes experiences a fatal error. No faith required, just math and science.

The same with your operation case. No faith required, the doctor explains to you what your chances are and they explain the operation that will take place. They use their knowledge to put it into practice. There is hope you wont turm up dead sure. No faith required.

But i assume all what im saying has no meaning here because i notice i've hit a wall. So no more attempts to analogies needed, we're getting nowhere.

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That study was flawed. It only showed that people who claimed to have faith believed they were experiencing less pain.

There was a similar study in acupuncture. People who were told they were being treated by a highly trained and experienced acupuncturist wrote down lower pain levels than those who were told they were being treated by a student. They were in fact being treated by the same acupuncturist. They had more "faith" in the experienced one.

I dont know what study you are referring to. A number of clniical studies conducted in recent years showed that pain was reduced in the only way which can be assessed, ie in the experience of the pain sufferer. Pain is more "psychological" than physical (for example fear and stress both increase the pain level that a patient feels, while a feeling of calmness or security/safety reduces pain perception. PAIN IS PERCEPTION thus faith reduces pain probably by psychologicala mechanisms which reduce stress and anxiety and produce calmness peace and lack of fear (All attributes of faith)

This occured in a number of studies to the point where patients could be taken off drugs like oxycodeine and placed on paracetemols or equivalents. The clinicians concerned estimated that, in some cases, the amount of pain felt by patients was reduced by as much as half.

Do you know that no one can measure pain, except the person feeling it? There is no clinical way to measure it. Thus when I had my chest cut open and my heart removed to be fixed, the doctors /nurses asked ME to rate my pain levels and decide the amount of pain relief i required. I started on oxycodeine, but within 48 hours had enough control of my body to reduce pain perception, and the amount of pain i felt very markedly, and cut back to strong panadols The original pain was enough for me to wish that i could die, despite the oxycodeine. As i controllled the pain through faith, it reduced to a quite bearable level, with only strong panadol. This also reduced the potential for me to develop any dependency on, or addiction to, the very powerful oxycodein .

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You can try and give all the examples you want it doesn't change the fact that faith is not an issue in those cases.

For a plane to fly there is no need for faith, there is knowledge of how basic flight works..airflow, wings, all that and the knowledge that pilots study these principles and practice it. There is knowledge of statistical calculation that one out of n pilots/planes experiences a fatal error. No faith required, just math and science.

The same with your operation case. No faith required, the doctor explains to you what your chances are and they explain the operation that will take place. They use their knowledge to put it into practice. There is hope you wont turm up dead sure. No faith required.

But i assume all what im saying has no meaning here because i notice i've hit a wall. So no more attempts to analogies needed, we're getting nowhere.

Thats because youre not listening. I never said or implied faith had anything to do with a plane flying. That's physics But faith is what gets people into planes and flying in them, not their knowledge of physics. It is their belief that a plane will fly that gives them the confidence to fly in one.

Of course the doctors explained the principles of open heart surgery. I had statistical confidence in them because the royal adelaide hospital is one of the best cardiac hospitals in the world. They also told me I could quite easily die in it, even though it is a fairly routine operation these days. They gave me the statistics and i can assure you, no one wants to know that in the next few hours the have x% chance of being dead.

Luckilly, god sent me an angel in the disguise of a handsome young man in a very expensive suit, who dropped me in a bible (the hospital had been banned from providing them by some form of political correctness, an idiotic decision which was overturned soon after) I assumed he was a jw or mormon, by the way he was dressed, but a number of nurses later asked me if i knew him, because he was so young, handsome and expensively dressed. Nurses are often on the eye out for such prospects.

Anyway, he gave me the bible. I opened it at random, and put my finger on a verse. It said , 'Have no fear. No harm shall come to you, for I am watching over you." By the time i read it, the young man had walked out the french doors at the end of my room (This was before my operation when i was being monitored )

I pulled my monitoring equipment along with me, and went after him, to thank him. When i went through the doors, I was out on a private balcony 5 floors above the ground. There was no other entrance or exit, and the nearest other balcony was 10 feet away The young man had disappeared.

At that point i knew what had happened and what he was (look there were no ropes left behind that he might have abseiled down. It was too high to jump and too low to parachute from. There wasn't sufficient room to get a run up and jump the 10 feet to the next balcony, even if he had reason to do so. No, he just disappeared/dematerialised, and no one ever saw him again. All my fears worries and concerns went away and i was calm and unconcerned from then on.

Four years after this operation, a stranger walked up to me in the street of my home town and said, "God told me to tell you this." He then proceeded to tell me how he had been in ward 5 (the cardiac ward) of the royal adelaide hospital, waiting for the same operation i had had. He was also worried and afraid. Then he was pushed back on his feet by an invisible palm in his chest. A voice said to him, "Have no fear . No harm shall come to you, for I am watching over you."

He told me how he went from an atheist to a knower of god in that moment.He also described the same release from all fear and the absolute knowledge /confidence that he would be fine; that i experienced. Now, he had been "told by god" to tell me (and no one else) this story/experience.

He began to apologise, explaining how he knew i would find it incredible. He knew nothing about me, not even that i had had the same operation in the same ward, a year after him. I just smiled and said something like, " Well as it happens......", and told him my own story.

All this is the absolute truth. Make of it what you will.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Do you know that no one can measure pain, except the person feeling it? There is no clinical way to measure it.

Press on an injury and measure the heart rate increase.

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