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Blueogre2

The Problem with Magick

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Useless = No, it has worked for me countless times, far too many times to list, more often than not, I would be brave enough to say.

Unpredictable = May be at first, because of lack of practise, understanding of certain key point/elements which make up the whole or arrogance, ignorance, even the timings.... All play their part.

Limited = I am not sure I am still working on a few things that as yet have not been made manifest but as I said there are timings to these things. Somethings take time. So, limited...I am still researching into it and can not say with clarity that it is limited.

Practicality = I do not find it impractical....How do you mean exactly?

Problem of negative spirits = Hmmmmmm, just walk down the street, listen to a conversation at work or at the bus stop...Where ever what ever you do or go, there is someone negative, spewing negativity, don't need some shadowy spirit to blame....But really, i need you to be a bit clearer about these negative spirits of which you speak. To be able to answer more fully.

I think i have covered all your point.

Greetings Blue Star. When I said practicality I was basically talking about the fact that Magic can't cure cancer or make a person rich, ya know big stuff like that. As for negative spirits I mean those hostile beings that often show up when humans begin using magic. Thats why banishing rituals are needed.
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I dont call it magic but something very similar is a very important and powerful part of my life. I dont find it trivial or limited. It works as well as machines do, and nature does. One just has to understand it, make oneself a part of it, and utilise it.

PArt of my understanding, is that i am never negative. I cant be. There are no doubts, or worries, or fears, to hold me back. MAybe thats why magic works so well and consistently for me. I know it exists. I know it works, and so it does.

But as i said; to me its not magic but miracle. The power(s) granted through being a part of the universe /cosmic consciousness/god.

This power/magic permeates me and the universe, and makes many things possible.

Greetings Mr. Walker. I see you a have a unique point of view on magic, would you care to expand upon it a little bit more. For example what system do you follow Chaos? Wicca, Ceremonial or have you created your own special path?

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Greetings Blue...,

It is my stance that energy permeates all around us. And that we have the potential to tap into it. This view is nothing new. Consider ancient religions. The Bible itself has many magical aspects throughout the whole books and many magicians were in competition amongst one another (ie Simon Magus, Jesus, etc). The Babylonians were very much influenced by Astrology and the notion of "as above, so below." Egyptians and Tibetans have their own books of magic as do other regions. Certainly magic is nothing new. Magic is everywhere and in different guises, be it tarot, astrology, numerology, alchemy, etc. etc. etc. and more importantly in the "self." The brain is the most potent thing we have. The body the spirit in which to chanel such energy in. After all we have the ability to manifest something as amazing as God/s.

As an addendum if interested Eliphas Levi (while biased to his views of Catholism--then again doesn't everyone have an agenda?), still presents some of the most romantic, and in depth studies into magic up to date.

SINcerely,

:devil:

Interesting, so then do you think that magic is simply natural? And if so then how come no miraculous events like healings and people becoming rich through spellcraft?

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Interesting, so then do you think that magic is simply natural? And if so then how come no miraculous events like healings and people becoming rich through spellcraft?

Greetings Blue,

I can't help but feel you are looking for "magic" in all the wrong areas and negate the potential within. First you underestimate the power of a good hug or a kiss from a loved one. That is instant healing perse right there. Secondly, as far as people becoming rich through spellcraft again you are negligent I feel if you'll indulge me. It is much more simple than you think. To put it very simple, thinking is believing. IF the individual sees the potential in themself and makes "magical" chants of positive affirmation to themselves (not to gods, devils, angels, etc.) then the possibilties and potential of the individual are endless. People become rich every day through the power of the magic of "self-belief," self confidence" call it what you will.

SINcerely,

:devil:

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Greetings Blue,

I can't help but feel you are looking for "magic" in all the wrong areas and negate the potential within. First you underestimate the power of a good hug or a kiss from a loved one. That is instant healing perse right there. Secondly, as far as people becoming rich through spellcraft again you are negligent I feel if you'll indulge me. It is much more simple than you think. To put it very simple, thinking is believing. IF the individual sees the potential in themself and makes "magical" chants of positive affirmation to themselves (not to gods, devils, angels, etc.) then the possibilties and potential of the individual are endless. People become rich every day through the power of the magic of "self-belief," self confidence" call it what you will.

SINcerely,

:devil:

Yes, I know of what you speak, I have a slight interest in New Thought techniques as well. But, what I am more interested in is power to change reality not just my perception

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Greetings Blue Star. When I said practicality I was basically talking about the fact that Magic can't cure cancer or make a person rich, ya know big stuff like that. As for negative spirits I mean those hostile beings that often show up when humans begin using magic. Thats why banishing rituals are needed.

My goodness how you negate the magic and potential of the mind so easily. :(

It is factual that if someone believes something helps them, then if it soothes the mind then it is healing. I can't stress enough the "placebo effect."

People surround themselves by loved ones when sick, play music they love when sick, etc. It may not remove a tumor but you underestimate the power these simple things hold and how they heal and have a magical effect on the mind.

Banishing rituals are not needed.

The problem is too many juveniles seeing scary movies or wanting to be cool delve into things they are not familiar with and stick there head too deep in the sand without fully contemplating the consequences of such on their psyche.

As Aggripa puts it very clearly, "If we would call any evil Spirit to the Circle, it first behoveth us to consider and to know his nature, to which planets it agreeth, and to what offices are distributted to him from the planet." -Agrippa from Occult Philosophia (4th book).

Hence the problem is too many people delve into things they are not familiar with and the only true demon they need protection from is themselves.

SINcerely,

:devil:

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Yes, I know of what you speak, I have a slight interest in New Thought techniques as well. But, what I am more interested in is power to change reality not just my perception

That's just it. YOU can change your reality! Not just perception. If you don't like a situation in reality YOU can stay in it or do something about it. YOU seem to hope charms and spells will resolve it. The charms and spells are TOOLS to enhance and help assist the individual NOT resolve it. I don't mean to be insulting or offensive if I'm coming off as such. THis subject gets me passionate because people tend to have gross missunderstandings of magic IMO.

SINcerely,

:devil:

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Greetings Mr. Walker. I see you a have a unique point of view on magic, would you care to expand upon it a little bit more. For example what system do you follow Chaos? Wicca, Ceremonial or have you created your own special path?

As with religion and spirituality, i am an Inclusionist. I have two basic principles, "suck it and see", and "do no harm".

In other words, if it works, go for it, but only use it for good/constructive or at least neutral purposes. I combine this with a value that i am no more important than anyone else in the world, and thus I have no right to seek advantage which harms any other. Then i chose to do all i can to improve myself and, through me, humanity. I dont know enough about the various forms of magic to know if i fit under any category, but having read and studied about 7 various forms from memory, i fit under a number of them Wiccan or nature magic might be considered the closest but there is a strong element of modern chaos magic in it as well. Not tha t i seek these paths, just that my path has some resemblance to these and other magic forms Magic is largely a product o f the mind, discipline and learning, but also a part of the natural world.

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That's just it. YOU can change your reality! Not just perception. If you don't like a situation in reality YOU can stay in it or do something about it. YOU seem to hope charms and spells will resolve it. The charms and spells are TOOLS to enhance and help assist the individual NOT resolve it. I don't mean to be insulting or offensive if I'm coming off as such. THis subject gets me passionate because people tend to have gross missunderstandings of magic IMO.

SINcerely,

:devil:

Well yes, I know exactly what your talking about. I do control my reality. But what about making miracles happen? If a person gets cancer or aids no matter of postive thinking is going to change that fact, it will make them feel better and maybe help the medicine work better but thats about it. What I am talking about is supernatural power that can redifine the world. Perhaps I am being childish for thinking so, but I feel like humanity has a great destiny ahead of it, one where the current problems and struggles will be seen as trivial at best. Sorry if I upset you with my views

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Well yes, I know exactly what your talking about. I do control my reality. But what about making miracles happen? If a person gets cancer or aids no matter of postive thinking is going to change that fact, it will make them feel better and maybe help the medicine work better but thats about it. What I am talking about is supernatural power that can redifine the world. Perhaps I am being childish for thinking so, but I feel like humanity has a great destiny ahead of it, one where the current problems and struggles will be seen as trivial at best. Sorry if I upset you with my views

Dr's treat! Even they can't cure everything and do their best as is their creed to "treat" patients. Thus there are forms of magical "treatment" as well (ie. "Mindfulness practice" or "Somatic experienceing" or "eye movement desensitization" or "guided imagery" etc.-All are considered "new agey-"magical healing" yet have proven over time to have benefits). If you are expecting a cure...hate to break it to you countless of people die every day even at the hands of capable Dr.'s.

In regards to humanity having a great destiny ahead...haven't you heard we're gonna die come 2012. <_<:lol::rolleyes:

You didn't offend me. I worried I did so you as this subject gets me going and far too many people expect irrationalism to come from such a subject but there is a lot to it. For magic to have persisted as long as it has...that while it's had its skeptics, the mystique of magic has shown if anything it's adversity.

SINcerely,

:devil:

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Dr's treat! Even they can't cure everything and do their best as is their creed to "treat" patients. Thus there are forms of magical "treatment" as well (ie. "Mindfulness practice" or "Somatic experienceing" or "eye movement desensitization" or "guided imagery" etc.-All are considered "new agey-"magical healing" yet have proven over time to have benefits). If you are expecting a cure...hate to break it to you countless of people die every day even at the hands of capable Dr.'s.

In regards to humanity having a great destiny ahead...haven't you heard we're gonna die come 2012. <_<:lol::rolleyes:

You didn't offend me. I worried I did so you as this subject gets me going and far too many people expect irrationalism to come from such a subject but there is a lot to it. For magic to have persisted as long as it has...that while it's had its skeptics, the mystique of magic has shown if anything it's adversity.

SINcerely,

:devil:

I suppose you have a point. But I would still prefer magical power with objective results that can be measured

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The efficacy of magick ,always has to do with the practitioner .

It is akin to prayer or chanting.

If no one has noticed ,most religions burn incense and light candles .Most have prayer or chants .

Most have some sort of ritual ,and blessed foods are part of some of this,depending .

As can fasting or annointing oneself for said ritual .

What is it people think we do,that is any different .

Given ,paganism is sooo much older than organized religions ,*where* does everyone think all those rituals were copied from ?

DUH

And I got more involved in it,because of the nasty entities . I had to learn how to get rid of them .

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Yes, I know of what you speak, I have a slight interest in New Thought techniques as well. But, what I am more interested in is power to change reality not just my perception

Thought.... Plannning.... Action

You can change any reality you want, and it's far less complicated.

Magic, prayer, meditation ritual is for you and your mind to achieve the right place to be successful in the above three for your desired out come.

You can use this for and against others if their minds allow it. A powerful elaborate blessing or curse can work wonders on a believer. But is utterly lost on the non or apathetic. Just keep in mind there are those that say they don't believe but don't and those that say they do but don't. This is the power of real magic.

Edited by Seeker79

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Hello, One should keep in mind that the magic arts have different meanings to people of different path's. For some it is a connection to nature itself,a connection to working with one's own element i.e. earth,fire,water,air,or a deity/deities, there are many reason as to why people work with such a art as magic. Having worked with the arts of magic for as long as i have there is no doubt that it does indeed work and can be work with in many different form's. People tend to forget quickly that what they believe is simply what they believe, it effects only that person and his/her viewpoint.

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Greetings Blue Star. When I said practicality I was basically talking about the fact that Magic can't cure cancer or make a person rich, ya know big stuff like that. As for negative spirits I mean those hostile beings that often show up when humans begin using magic. Thats why banishing rituals are needed.

For someone who doesn't believe in magick,you sure know enough about it ,and plenty of people have gotten rich using it. Depends upon karma. Just ask Led Zeppelin and Desi Arnaz .

It can cure,just as prayer can cure. Many people believe in prayer healing miracle . Same principle .

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I have always believed that "Magick Ritual" evolved early in man's understanding that their mode of being had effects on how their reality and situations played out. But ofcourse they weren't using the scientific models that we are, today. Magick Ritual is like a tool to harness the belief and emotion of bringing your intended outcome into manifestation and also as an anchor in the belief that it WILL happen ("BECAUSE I did This")

Every thought, feeling and belief you express has an effect on your world. You perform miracles every day. When you get too attached to the outcome, it becomes too serious, and the fluid like pleasure of the result "BECOMING" is instead replaced by a fear that it will not. If that area in your life becomes as such, you should step back from it a while. Lower it's importance.

The very particles in your brain that shape and make up your image of the world, are entangled with their counterparts on the "outside". This IS magick. Try and make your entire daily routine your Magick Ritual and let your result be a fluid, moving, "becomING", not a solid result that "happens and stops right there".

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I wouldn't call Magick useless. That's a pretty broad generalization to make considering it's such a vast subject.

Edited by Rock-Chick

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Lighting candles and incense may be relaxing but it won't do anything. Only the person doing real and physical actions can achieve something that resembles results.

Want to find a new car? Pore over the ads. Need to find a job. Search the ads, consult friends, etc. Want to attract the attentions of someone you've had your eye on? Go talk to them. Want to prevent hunger? Donate food to a food shelf.

Simple, isn't it? And you didn't need to chant words or pray to yet another invented deity..you did it yourself and what's better is that you can give yourself the credit rather than a purple candle and some rocks.

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I really can't be bothered with you.

If you had bothered to read what I had written, you would have noted that I am in the process of research and exploration into these very things but no.

Saying that you are in the majority (Pretty much the entire world) is foolish, as really you don't come across to me as someone qualified to say so.

Even if you could prove that you were in the majority and that majority believed magic isn't real..... That, quite honestly wouldn't mean anything to me. Not when you consider such things as the long held belief that the world was flat or that.... Oh really, don't you get bored of being so bland?

There's a lot more people on this world than you and your narrow mindedness seems to be aware of.

I really can't be @rsed.

Unfortunately, there is nothing to back your claims so many will regard them as other claims that proved to be false.

Some years ago, I knew someone who claimed that he could use magic and make things appear, move etc... He asked me to set up a camera (pre-digital model) to record it. I did, showed him how to work it, then left him for about half an hour. We viewed the tape after he was done and on the tape he exclaimed see, I have levitated a ball using magic. Unfortunately, the tape showed no levitation. He got angry and said I had done something to the tape or the camera, but he bought the tape and used the camera himself and we viewed the footage while it was still in the camera.

I believe that his desire to do magic was so great that his mind obliged him with for lack of a better term a daydream where he saw it happen even though it evidently didn't.

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Greetings, forum. It has come to my attention that Magick, is a rather useless thing. I am not saying that it does not work. I do believe that it does but the effects seem to be rather unpredictable and limited in it's practicality.

Unpredictable and limited is what would expect when results are due to chance. A lot of the people who are engaged in these sorts of practices choose not to consider the role of chance or bias in their workings. They will say "doubt is ruining your results". Even if their results are mostly negative or null, when one seemingly favorable outcome arises, they will jump to attribute it to their workings. And I believe more than a few people who write about these things are flat out lying, if not to others, then to themselves.

The only utility I've found in areas of the occult stem from self-knowledge. It can help you get better in-tune with your subconscious or unconscious minds, or whatever you want to call it, for better or for worse.

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Greetings Blue Star. When I said practicality I was basically talking about the fact that Magic can't cure cancer or make a person rich, ya know big stuff like that. As for negative spirits I mean those hostile beings that often show up when humans begin using magic. Thats why banishing rituals are needed.

Thank you, Blueogre2,

Yes this is clearer to me now.

a little personal note on the cancer issue....I had one of my own experience of having a breast lump and chose to do magic on it. Whilst working on the healing I got the amount of time it would take to heal what to use and even the date of when it would all be clear.... Which I am glad to say it did....I am not in a position to prove this but I know it happened.

As for wealth issues, this too,

I have many experiences of but alas without any stab it with a fork, hit it with a hammer, hard faced proof... It is futile for me to wax on about it. As there are so many nay sayers here in the UM forums, who just can't wait to pounce.

I agree with you about the banishing rituals, very important indeed for anyone wishing to explore the magic realms. I would say the healing, banishing, grounding, de-cluttering and protective aspects are the best starting point.

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Unfortunately, there is nothing to back your claims so many will regard them as other claims that proved to be false.

Some years ago, I knew someone who claimed that he could use magic and make things appear, move etc... He asked me to set up a camera (pre-digital model) to record it. I did, showed him how to work it, then left him for about half an hour. We viewed the tape after he was done and on the tape he exclaimed see, I have levitated a ball using magic. Unfortunately, the tape showed no levitation. He got angry and said I had done something to the tape or the camera, but he bought the tape and used the camera himself and we viewed the footage while it was still in the camera.

I believe that his desire to do magic was so great that his mind obliged him with for lack of a better term a daydream where he saw it happen even though it evidently didn't.

Yes, I hear you.

The mind can play tricks on anyone of us.

This is why, I keep saying..... I am in research and exploring these realms and as yet my findings are inconclusive or as yet, unable to prove to any nay sayer.

Yet after saying this, all great things start as a thought, an idea, a daydream....don't they?

Name me one creative act of a human being that did not start as a thought firstly, castles in the sky.... So to speak?

But then I am not so much interested in proving it as heavy as lead or as brittle as concrete. I am interested in, does it work? Do I get the desired results and so forth? It's not really something to show off about, is it?

Just, does it work? if so, I do it. If not, I try something else.

So far, I have found working within the phases of the moon, the seasonal, monthly influences beneficial and my day to day stuff goes much more smoothly, when I work within the rhythms of these electromagnetic influences. Yet these are all quite quiet things, I am talking of things such as biodiversity, plant growth, harvest and the like. This is not the hollywood type of magic, all whistles and bells. It is far more subtle, gentle than that.... As fluid as Thai Chi, gentle as a breeze and as as true as the dew.

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the occult has its uses......................ive seen many who dabble in it too much eventually land in trouble.................

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Useless on its own but a good advantage when merged with other skills & professions. Like ninjas :ph34r:

Edited by C235
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My goodness how you negate the magic and potential of the mind so easily. :(

It is factual that if someone believes something helps them, then if it soothes the mind then it is healing. I can't stress enough the "placebo effect."

People surround themselves by loved ones when sick, play music they love when sick, etc. It may not remove a tumor but you underestimate the power these simple things hold and how they heal and have a magical effect on the mind.

Banishing rituals are not needed.

The problem is too many juveniles seeing scary movies or wanting to be cool delve into things they are not familiar with and stick there head too deep in the sand without fully contemplating the consequences of such on their psyche.

As Aggripa puts it very clearly, "If we would call any evil Spirit to the Circle, it first behoveth us to consider and to know his nature, to which planets it agreeth, and to what offices are distributted to him from the planet." -Agrippa from Occult Philosophia (4th book).

Hence the problem is too many people delve into things they are not familiar with and the only true demon they need protection from is themselves.

SINcerely,

:devil:

Aleister Crowley tried to invoke the devil himself . For some reason he was also titled the cruelest man in the world. I'm not certain if he did actually invoke Lucifer. Have you heard or read that Crowley and another man have performed a ritual at area 51? Yeah , they wanted to open a vortex for something to come through, something not so Holy. If it's true, I think they were out of their minds for doing that. From the pictures I've seen of him , he seems to have drastically changed, for instance, his eyes look as though he went mad or something over the years.

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