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buckskin scout

Sands Of Sorrow (1950)

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On the plight of Arab refugees from the Arab-Israeli war. Dorothy Thompson speaks on the refugee problem. Refugees live in tents in the Gaza Strip, are given blankets and food by Egyptian soldiers, and receive flour from UNICEF. A Lebanese priest conducts services. Refugees work as plumbers, carpenters, tailors, and shoemakers in the city of Jerusalem. Doctors vaccinate refugees against disease. Shows the squalid living conditions in refugee camps, starving children, and emphasizes the hopeless condition of the refugees. Producer: Council for the Relief of Palestine Arab Refugees; Creative Commons license: Public Domain

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62 years. They remain in hope that Israel will disappear. If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity. But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds. 62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason. Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds. They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy. It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear. The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done. What it WILL accomplish is war. Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest. So you see, Bug, these films have an answer. It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge. More's the pity.

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62 years. They remain in hope that Israel will disappear. If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity. But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds. 62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason. Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds. They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy. It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear. The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done. What it WILL accomplish is war. Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest. So you see, Bug, these films have an answer. It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge. More's the pity.

Get your head out of the sand, Palestinians wont have it any better in Israel either.

Here is what our own US Department of State says about Israel http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61690.htm

Israel and the occupied territories

Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

2005March 8, 2006

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(The Report on the occupied territories is appended at the end of this Report.)

With a population of approximately 6.9 million (including about 5 million Jews within Israel),Israel is a multiparty parliamentary democracy. "Basic laws" enumerate fundamental rights. The 120-member, unicameral Knesset, has the power to dissolve the government and mandate elections. Both the 16th (most recent) Knesset and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon were elected democratically in 2003. In November Sharon requested that the president dissolve the Knesset, announced that he was leaving the Likud Party, and established a new party, Kadima ("move forward"). The president set elections for March 28, 2006. On December 29, pursuant to presidential decree, the Knesset was dissolved.

The judiciary is independent and sometimes ruled against the executive, including in some security cases. Notwithstanding some cases of abuse by individuals, the civilian authorities maintained effective control of the security forces. (An annex to this report covers human rights in the occupied territories. This report deals only with human rights in Israel.)

In August and September, Israel withdrew all civilians and military personnel from all 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and from 4 settlements in the northern West Bank of the over 200 settlements there. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens of the country and do not enjoy the rights of citizens, even if living in areas under full Israeli authority or arrested in Israel. The approximately 20 thousand non-Israeli residents of the Golan Heights were subject to Israeli authority and Israeli law.

The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including the following:

  • serious abuses by some members of the security forces against Palestinian detainees
  • Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers
  • resulted in the death of 29 civilians and an IDF soldier within Israel
  • poor conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities
  • improper application of security internment procedures (see annex)
  • institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens
  • discrimination in personal and civil status matters against non-Orthodox Jews
  • societal violence and discrimination against women
  • trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers
  • de facto discrimination against persons with disabilities
  • government corruption

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Get your head out of the sand, Palestinians wont have it any better in Israel either.

Here is what our own US Department of State says about Israel http://www.state.gov.../2005/61690.htm

Israel and the occupied territories

Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

2005March 8, 2006

Share on facebookShare on google_plusone btn-share.png

(The Report on the occupied territories is appended at the end of this Report.)

With a population of approximately 6.9 million (including about 5 million Jews within Israel),Israel is a multiparty parliamentary democracy. "Basic laws" enumerate fundamental rights. The 120-member, unicameral Knesset, has the power to dissolve the government and mandate elections. Both the 16th (most recent) Knesset and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon were elected democratically in 2003. In November Sharon requested that the president dissolve the Knesset, announced that he was leaving the Likud Party, and established a new party, Kadima ("move forward"). The president set elections for March 28, 2006. On December 29, pursuant to presidential decree, the Knesset was dissolved.

The judiciary is independent and sometimes ruled against the executive, including in some security cases. Notwithstanding some cases of abuse by individuals, the civilian authorities maintained effective control of the security forces. (An annex to this report covers human rights in the occupied territories. This report deals only with human rights in Israel.)

In August and September, Israel withdrew all civilians and military personnel from all 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and from 4 settlements in the northern West Bank of the over 200 settlements there. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens of the country and do not enjoy the rights of citizens, even if living in areas under full Israeli authority or arrested in Israel. The approximately 20 thousand non-Israeli residents of the Golan Heights were subject to Israeli authority and Israeli law.

The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including the following:

  • serious abuses by some members of the security forces against Palestinian detainees
  • Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers
  • resulted in the death of 29 civilians and an IDF soldier within Israel
  • poor conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities
  • improper application of security internment procedures (see annex)
  • institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens
  • discrimination in personal and civil status matters against non-Orthodox Jews
  • societal violence and discrimination against women
  • trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers
  • de facto discrimination against persons with disabilities
  • government corruption

I'm not proposing that they will be in Israel. As far as I'm concerned they need to be separated and live in different countries. This is why the problem has no peaceful solution short of one group literally wiping the other group out of the land. The Palestinians will never really, finally accept anything except ALL THE LAND. They will never accomplish this by force of arms and neither will their "patrons". I think the Bible mentions a couple of different conflicts that may pave the way for a solution to this problem but it will be horrendous for all concerned. You are comical in your presentation of political solutions and approaches to such problems that have PROVEN they have no political solution.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not proposing that they will be in Israel. As far as I'm concerned they need to be separated and live in different countries. This is why the problem has no peaceful solution short of one group literally wiping the other group out of the land. The Palestinians will never really, finally accept anything except ALL THE LAND. They will never accomplish this by force of arms and neither will their "patrons". I think the Bible mentions a couple of different conflicts that may pave the way for a solution to this problem but it will be horrendous for all concerned. You are comical in your presentation of political solutions and approaches to such problems that have PROVEN they have no political solution.

I just addressed someone else in another forum about this, what is your opinion of Plan Dalet (December 1947) and Operation Balak (June 1947-October 1949)?

Remember the international Arab-Israeli war began after Israel declared itself a state on May 15, 1948.

Here read this document Plan Dalet: Master Plan For the Conquest Of Palestine

http://www.scribd.co...y-Walid-Khalidi

*snip*

Edited by Saru
Removed flame

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Bug I want Israel to succeed in their plans to control the land. Have I not been honest and forthright in announcing this over and over? I do not agree that they should abuse or kill the Palestinians except as might occur in legitimate self defense but I believe God gave them the land. He is sovereign and since He said it is their's - I have to believe it is their's. Apparently you have no such proscriptions against your way of thinking.

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Bug I want Israel to succeed in their plans to control the land. Have I not been honest and forthright in announcing this over and over? I do not agree that they should abuse or kill the Palestinians except as might occur in legitimate self defense but I believe God gave them the land. He is sovereign and since He said it is their's - I have to believe it is their's. Apparently you have no such proscriptions against your way of thinking.

But the many orthodox Jews believe the Messiah leads them back to the land. That they cant return to the land until AFTER the Messiah arrives.

Some that have voiced an opinion here, believe there are many messiahs and that Theodor Herzl was one of them, even though he was a secular atheist and had relationships with prostitutes and believed all Jews should convert to Christianity as a solution to staunch anti-semitism. Two of his children committed suicide and a third went mad.

Anyways, I stick to the human issues, Jesus did warn that they will be identified by their fruits.

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62 years. They remain in hope that Israel will disappear. If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity. But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds. 62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason. Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds. They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy. It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear. The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done. What it WILL accomplish is war. Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest. So you see, Bug, these films have an answer. It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge. More's the pity.

Everything you said is true, but when you have lived your life oppressed by tyrants on both sides, hatred seems to be your ownley salvation.

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62 years. They remain in hope that Israel will disappear. If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity. But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds. 62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason. Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds. They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy. It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear. The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done. What it WILL accomplish is war. Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest. So you see, Bug, these films have an answer. It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge. More's the pity.

Egypt, particularly now with the new government, is actually giving Palestinians in Gaza more than it can affored. It is only when a government provides 'succor and dignity' to close to 45% who are impoverished among its own population that it may start looking after its neighbors. Subsidized goods and fuel are regularly smuggled through illegal tunnels by Palestinian profiteers, and are taxed by Hamas, at the cost of those who are actually poorer than the Gaza population. Below you find an Egyptian cartoon that says it all. The succor should come from the oil rich countries, Egypt has sacrificed enough!

563894_446640762053795_1642698804_n.jpg

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This is a bit off topic, but I wonder... What would happen if everybody realized that both Israel and thew Palestinians have legitimate claims to the same land and therefore decided to grow up a bit? After all, it's becoming more obvious that neither side is going to budge any time soon. So how about a compromise : Israel starts to integrate Palestinians into it's govt and tries to become the melting pot of the middle east where different religions and cultures join to create a new country? That wouldn't happen immediately (It would take a generation to really come to fruition) and there would be problems... but it seems like it might be the only real solution to the problems being experienced in that country...

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There shouldn't even be a "tunnel" let alone an "illegal" one. If people weren't being deprived of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there wouldn't be any need for bullets, bombs and booby traps. Such as their reality is, there's a need for weapons to defend themselves from terrorism and tyranny.

Want to put the goons out of business? Tear down the damn walls.

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62 years. They remain in hope that Israel will disappear. If there were sanity in the world the nations of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria would have each taken a portion of these displaced persons and welcomed them as brothers at some point - giving them succour and dignity. But instead these nations have made them permanent beggars for their own political ends and hatreds. 62 years and billions of dollars of welfare later, these people are still beggars and still for the same reason. Rather than find some just compromise they remain firmly entrenched in their hatreds. They are taught as very young children that Israel and the West in general are their enemy. It is sad for them because Israel will never disappear. The hatreds and plots, schemes and propaganda will never get the job done. What it WILL accomplish is war. Unnecessary blood letting that only ends when they become more interested in peace than reconquest. So you see, Bug, these films have an answer. It's just not one you care to believe or acknowledge. More's the pity.

And act like a complice in ethnic clansing?

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And act like a complice in ethnic clansing?

The result will be war and more death. You can stand on your moral principles and it is your right, but the end state will be worse than the status quo.

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Egypt, particularly now with the new government, is actually giving Palestinians in Gaza more than it can affored. It is only when a government provides 'succor and dignity' to close to 45% who are impoverished among its own population that it may start looking after its neighbors. Subsidized goods and fuel are regularly smuggled through illegal tunnels by Palestinian profiteers, and are taxed by Hamas, at the cost of those who are actually poorer than the Gaza population. Below you find an Egyptian cartoon that says it all. The succor should come from the oil rich countries, Egypt has sacrificed enough!

563894_446640762053795_1642698804_n.jpg

That has not always been so. I think when all this began, Egypt was one of the wealthier immediate neighbors but the point I make is that the Palestinians are Arabs. All their neighbors are Arabs and some of those quite wealthy like the oil kingdoms.... there can be no doubt that if they had acted toward their blood relations as the Jews of Israel did for the many tens of thousands of displaced Jews then the problem might not exist at all. I do not blame one of these nations more than another. But I believe it is self evident that the hatred of Arab for Jew spoken of in the Qur'an sets a wall between these peoples far greater than any edifice of mortar and stone.

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This is a bit off topic, but I wonder... What would happen if everybody realized that both Israel and thew Palestinians have legitimate claims to the same land and therefore decided to grow up a bit? After all, it's becoming more obvious that neither side is going to budge any time soon. So how about a compromise : Israel starts to integrate Palestinians into it's govt and tries to become the melting pot of the middle east where different religions and cultures join to create a new country? That wouldn't happen immediately (It would take a generation to really come to fruition) and there would be problems... but it seems like it might be the only real solution to the problems being experienced in that country...

If you were dealing with even a somewhat rational western mindset your plan would no doubt find success - maybe complete success. The camel in the tent that NO ONE will speak of is the hatred between these two peoples.

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But the many orthodox Jews believe the Messiah leads them back to the land. That they cant return to the land until AFTER the Messiah arrives.

Some that have voiced an opinion here, believe there are many messiahs and that Theodor Herzl was one of them, even though he was a secular atheist and had relationships with prostitutes and believed all Jews should convert to Christianity as a solution to staunch anti-semitism. Two of his children committed suicide and a third went mad.

Anyways, I stick to the human issues, Jesus did warn that they will be identified by their fruits.

You keep talking about this as if it matters. They are in the land. They - short of being exterminated by their neighbors - will remain forever in the land. You have chosen who you support - as have I. Time will tell who is right.

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There shouldn't even be a "tunnel" let alone an "illegal" one. If people weren't being deprived of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there wouldn't be any need for bullets, bombs and booby traps. Such as their reality is, there's a need for weapons to defend themselves from terrorism and tyranny.

Want to put the goons out of business? Tear down the damn walls.

That's an idealistic take of the tunnels. The borders are there for the transportation of goods in a legal way. No nation's frontiers should be breached by underground tunnels no matter what reason/motive there may be. As a matter of fact the tunnels are used to smuggle huge quantities of subsidized fuel, building materials...etc. (causing huge shortages & crisis in Egypt). Cars, including stolen cars, are also smuggled, as well as weapons and terrorists. The latter killed 16 unarmed Egyptian soldiers not so long ago.

There are tunnels belonging to Hamas, and which are solely used by the Hamas organization and their affiliates, as well as “public” tunnels. It costs around $80,000 to dig a tunnel, depending on the tunnel’s size and length; however this price is more than worth it as a single tunnel could net the owner $150,000 per day"
http://m.asharq-e.com/content/1346426394169845000/Published%20-%20Features

Bear in mind that the smuggled goods are mostly subsidized, and that the degree of poverty in Egypt is far worse than that in Gaza. No matter how 'justified' it might seem to be, one does not snatch the livelihood of the poorest to give the 'poor'! Simply put, the people in Egypt are angry

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That has not always been so. I think when all this began, Egypt was one of the wealthier immediate neighbors but the point I make is that the Palestinians are Arabs. All their neighbors are Arabs and some of those quite wealthy like the oil kingdoms.... there can be no doubt that if they had acted toward their blood relations as the Jews of Israel did for the many tens of thousands of displaced Jews then the problem might not exist at all. I do not blame one of these nations more than another. But I believe it is self evident that the hatred of Arab for Jew spoken of in the Qur'an sets a wall between these peoples far greater than any edifice of mortar and stone.

No, it has not always been so, but several wars, thousands of dead, and destroyed cities...etc. can wreak havoc with any country's economy. Egypt has shouldered more than its fair share and was more often met with ingratitude than not. My point is that succor should now come more from those whose contribution was mostly speeches, and that Egypt should concentrate on taking care of its people; 45% now live at or under the poverty line, about 50% of Egyptian children are suffering from malnourishment...in terms of a population of 83 million, that means there are more Egyptians than Palestinians who are in need of Egypt's limited resources. Count Egypt out!

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I'm not proposing that they will be in Israel. As far as I'm concerned they need to be separated and live in different countries.

There are those who might argue that they already do live in different countries.

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There are those who might argue that they already do live in different countries.

I meant a true country called Palestine. I think it's possible IF a spirit of compromise could descend.
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compromise on both sides, obviously.

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compromise on both sides, obviously.

Yes I think the Israelis will have to eventually try again but I fear it will only cost them more blood. It seems that when they are unwilling to give up land for promises then the Palestinians start a new uprising. When a protective wall/fence is built to stop infiltrations and bombings(and it works) they are universally condemned. Perhaps if the Palestinians were willing to guarantee non violence instead of simply saying they cannot control all their various actors? I mean, if there is no entity in true control then how can any "promise" be kept? I really believe that a majority of Israelis would be willing to give up even portions of Jerusalem to finally be left in peace.

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That's an idealistic take of the tunnels. The borders are there for the transportation of goods in a legal way. No nation's frontiers should be breached by underground tunnels no matter what reason/motive there may be. As a matter of fact the tunnels are used to smuggle huge quantities of subsidized fuel, building materials...etc. (causing huge shortages & crisis in Egypt). Cars, including stolen cars, are also smuggled, as well as weapons and terrorists. The latter killed 16 unarmed Egyptian soldiers not so long ago.

http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features

Bear in mind that the smuggled goods are mostly subsidized, and that the degree of poverty in Egypt is far worse than that in Gaza. No matter how 'justified' it might seem to be, one does not snatch the livelihood of the poorest to give the 'poor'! Simply put, the people in Egypt are angry

I think borders are there so we can treat the people on one side of them differently from the people on the other side.

A blanket opposition to tunnels is only idealistic if there are no tunnels, right? I think of what would eliminate the need for those tunnels. If the Zionist racket wasn't blockading Gaza from the Mediterranean Sea, maybe the "illegal" and even stolen merchandise could come in by boat. And thus need nothing to do with Egypt. With state prohibition, black markets always develop. Egypt's sovereign borders are an important issue and yet the reason why they're at issue at all is tragic. I won't use this opportunity to descend into another narrative about Israel. But when Palestine doesn't have any manner of sovereignty to speak of, the tunnels are going to be inevitable.

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I think borders are there so we can treat the people on one side of them differently from the people on the other side.

A blanket opposition to tunnels is only idealistic if there are no tunnels, right? I think of what would eliminate the need for those tunnels. If the Zionist racket wasn't blockading Gaza from the Mediterranean Sea, maybe the "illegal" and even stolen merchandise could come in by boat. And thus need nothing to do with Egypt. With state prohibition, black markets always develop. Egypt's sovereign borders are an important issue and yet the reason why they're at issue at all is tragic. I won't use this opportunity to descend into another narrative about Israel. But when Palestine doesn't have any manner of sovereignty to speak of, the tunnels are going to be inevitable.

Hello Yamato, it's been some time since we had a discussion :)

The point that is totally missed is that there are roads connecting Gaza an Egypt, these are open particularly since Mursi's government came to power. They should be used to transport 'unsubsidized' legal merchandise, customs paid, travelers' papers checked etc. It is not the case because frankly, the tunnels are used to smuggle stolen cars (including Egyptian police cars during the early months of the revolution), fuel, medication, cement...etc. Profits are made by the calculation of the difference of price (subsidies), black market in Gaza, and the taxes that Hamas, not Egypt, imposes on only one end of the tunnel. It is almost like a Robin Hood in reverse! Hamas maintains the tunnels as an easy inexpensive source of revenue, estimated at 1 billion/year. In the meanwhile, electricity outages & fuel shortages plunge cities in darkness for long hours while long queues block the streets, prices soar in Egypt and its the poor who suffer the most. Hamas' conflict with the PA complicates negotiations, so they turn on Egypt! Keep in mind that Hamas has had zero interest in founding a democratic system in Gaza, or in ensuring the basic rights & freedoms of its people; tunnelling under the borders and grabbing what rightfully belongs to the poor in Egypt was an easier option, it's a choice made by Hamas.. Here are some figures:

An Egyptian source informed Asharq Al-Awsat that “the tunnels have become the primary source of income for the Hamas government” adding “if the subsidized price of a liter of fuel is 80 piasters [in Egypt]…it costs 5 pounds in Gaza” adding “this shows you the kind of profits that we are talking about.”

Reports indicate that approximately 500,000 liters of fuel are smuggled into the Gaza Strip every day. The Egyptian source stressed that “this creates astronomical profits.”

Egypt estimates that the tunnels generate approximately one billion dollars per year, whilst economic experts in Gaza place the figure at a little lower than this.

However nobody knows precisely how much Hamas is making from the tunnels and illegal trade. A source informed Asharq Al-Awsat that Hamas’s income would depend on what is being smuggled, adding “some people place a tax cut on every kilo that is smuggled, others on every ton.”

He added “they charge around 50 cents for liter of petrol, 8 cents for every packet of cigarettes, $15 on every ton of steel and $10 on every ton of cement.”

The source also informed Asharq Al-Awsat that “some goods, such as cars, can be taxed as much as 25 percent, in addition to a $2,000 flat fee.”

The Egyptian Al-Ahram newspaper estimated that 13,000 cars were smuggled into the Gaza Strip via the tunnels in 2011.

The source stressed that Hamas taxes every item that enters the Gaza Strip via the tunnels.

http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features

Edited by meryt-tetisheri

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Hello Yamato, it's been some time since we had a discussion :)

The point that is totally missed is that there are roads connecting Gaza an Egypt, these are open particularly since Mursi's government came to power. They should be used to transport 'unsubsidized' legal merchandise, customs paid, travelers' papers checked etc. It is not the case because frankly, the tunnels are used to smuggle stolen cars (including Egyptian police cars during the early months of the revolution), fuel, medication, cement...etc. Profits are made by the calculation of the difference of price (subsidies), black market in Gaza, and the taxes that Hamas, not Egypt, imposes on only one end of the tunnel. It is almost like a Robin Hood in reverse! Hamas maintains the tunnels as an easy inexpensive source of revenue, estimated at 1 billion/year. In the meanwhile, electricity outages & fuel shortages plunge cities in darkness for long hours while long queues block the streets, prices soar in Egypt and its the poor who suffer the most. Hamas' conflict with the PA complicates negotiations, so they turn on Egypt! Keep in mind that Hamas has had zero interest in founding a democratic system in Gaza, or in ensuring the basic rights & freedoms of its people; tunnelling under the borders and grabbing what rightfully belongs to the poor in Egypt was an easier option, it's a choice made by Hamas.. Here are some figures:

http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features

I figure to be jumped over this question but I simply must ask. If there is such destitution and poverty in the Gaza...where is all this money for inflated priced merchandise coming from? These are significant amounts of cash that someone is spending yes?

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