Do atheists get a hard time?

[Ugly1]

I don't believe in a God, I don't have 'faith' in things. I follow facts and deductions that make logical sense off of the established facts, if these deductions happen to turn out wrong based on new facts, then these deductions shall change as well.

While I understand what you are writing, it is hard for me to put into words any type of retort. So I will say. When the fact comes that you die, and you meet god, I hope that I find a new fact out in that god really forgives everyone, even the unfaithful and we can be in heaven together.

[Bling]

While I understand what you are writing, it is hard for me to put into words any type of retort. So I will say. When the fact comes that you die, and you meet god, I hope that I find a new fact out in that god really forgives everyone, even the unfaithful and we can be in heaven together.

The bible says the unbelievers will go to hell not heaven doesn't it?

[Hasina]

While I understand what you are writing, it is hard for me to put into words any type of retort. So I will say. When the fact comes that you die, and you meet god, I hope that I find a new fact out in that god really forgives everyone, even the unfaithful and we can be in heaven together.

I will agree that me dying is a fact, but meeting god? Is there proof?

[Bling]

I will agree that me dying is a fact, but meeting god? Is there proof?

None whatsoever, but some refuse to acknowledge that!

[Alienated Being]

As I said, anything that cannot be proven wrong is a valid possibility. I didn't say it's accepted. Don't worry, it's a common misconception that science is about proving things right. It's about proving other ideas wrong and narrowing down the list of possibilities.

I never said that you said that it was accepted - I am saying that to assume that any possibility could be an accepted possibility is nothing short of ludicrous.

Given that it is incredibly rare that science proves anything beyond doubt, you still do not know this. As has been said, the correct expression would be that you think they are mistaken.

I suppose nobody can really know for sure, but at least science is attempting to find the answers, and is making the best effort in presenting the most realistic and logical ones.

That is not the assertion anyone has made. Either you do not understand or are deliberately twisting it into something you can argue with.

Hence why I said, "If an individual WERE"... and I am not intentionally twisting the argument into something I can argue with at all.

The assertion that science makes is that unless we can disprove something, it must remain a possibility.

Science does not accept everything as a possibility. Using that logic, scientists could accept pink unicorns, or indigo-coloured elephants as being the cause of a certain unexplained event simply because anything is possible. I believe science narrows down the most probable, most rational of possibilities, and then goes from there. It is an endless cycle.

1. No. Although actually we really don't have a good idea of how the planet formed. There's simply too little to study.

Actually, we do have a very firm understanding as to how planets have formed, and how they will continue to form. Gravity and geological processes are all very important factors in terms of how planets are formed, and scientists have a very firm understand of both from what has been observed.

3. Possibly. Would need more information on circumstances to say for sure.

And why is there that possibility that god did it, simply because no logical explanation can be found?

[Ugly1]

I have only begun to read my New Testament for the first time through as of about 2-3 months ago so I am in no way a scholar. From what I have taken in from what I have read is that Jesus taught a message of love.

It is written that no man shall enter into heaven except by Jesus. I have read however that this can be interpreted by how you read the text, and if you read the text before that verse it can totally change the meaning of how you take that.

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the

gospel to the whole creation.

16

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who

does not believe will be condemned.

The condemnation applies only to people who have had he Gospel presented to them, so that they fully understand the ideas, and then they reject it anyway. If they have never heard it, they are not condemned. And if they don't understand it, they are not condemned.

I do not know if I am a good Christian, or a bad Christian in the Churches eyes personally. I am a sinner. When I say I am a sinner, I mean that in a true sense. I curse, lie, have a child from a woman who is not my wife, am covered in tattoos, and have even been a bit of a player in my past (Not Anymore).

However. When it comes to going to church, I do not see that as my way of getting into heaven. Jesus spoke words of love. Loving your neighbor as yourself is what I have taken from the New Testament that will get you into heaven. Tithing is great as it helps spread the gospel, and helps grow the church but not all churches deserve to grow in my opinion. I think a lot of people think they are Atheist because they are only taking in the "Christian Message" that the Church teaches, and not the true Christian message that Jesus Christ preached.

Many Bible verses support the idea that love for others is sufficient to keep you out of Hell.

Galatians 5:14 (RSV)

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your

neighbor as yourself."

Romans 13:8 (RSV)

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves

his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10 (RSV)

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling

of the law.

James 2:8 (RSV)

If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture,

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

Proverbs 10:12 (RSV)

Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

1 Peter 4:8 (RSV)

Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love

covers a multitude of sins.

I think what is lost in many churches today is the love your neighbor. In my opinion that is creating a lot of Atheists and also not spreading the true word of Jesus Christ which is what our Christian faith is based on.

[Beckys_Mom]

I have only begun to read my New Testament for the first time through as of about 2-3 months ago so I am in no way a scholar. From what I have taken in from what I have read is that Jesus taught a message of love.

The condemnation applies only to people who have had he Gospel presented to them, so that they fully understand the ideas, and then they reject it anyway. If they have never heard it, they are not condemned. And if they don't understand it, they are not condemned.

I do not know if I am a good Christian, or a bad Christian in the Churches eyes personally. I am a sinner. When I say I am a sinner, I mean that in a true sense. I curse, lie, have a child from a woman who is not my wife, am covered in tattoos, and have even been a bit of a player in my past (Not Anymore).

However. When it comes to going to church, I do not see that as my way of getting into heaven. Jesus spoke words of love. Loving your neighbor as yourself is what I have taken from the New Testament that will get you into heaven. Tithing is great as it helps spread the gospel, and helps grow the church but not all churches deserve to grow in my opinion. I think a lot of people think they are Atheist because they are only taking in the "Christian Message" that the Church teaches, and not the true Christian message that Jesus Christ preached.

Many Bible verses support the idea that love for others is sufficient to keep you out of Hell.

Galatians 5:14 (RSV)

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your

neighbor as yourself."

Romans 13:8 (RSV)

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves

his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10 (RSV)

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling

of the law.

James 2:8 (RSV)

If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture,

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

Proverbs 10:12 (RSV)

Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

1 Peter 4:8 (RSV)

Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love

covers a multitude of sins.

I think what is lost in many churches today is the love your neighbor. In my opinion that is creating a lot of Atheists and also not spreading the true word of Jesus Christ which is what our Christian faith is based on.

Here is your source of the info you just posted --> http://www.internetc...nsgotohell.html

Edited October 25, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[ZaraKitty]

"God is real! We should put prayer in the schools! BAN ABORTION!"

"..I don't believe in god."

"STOP FORCING YOUR BELIEFS ON ME!"

[Setton]

I never said that you said that it was accepted - I am saying that to assume that any possibility could be an accepted possibility is nothing short of ludicrous.

I suppose nobody can really know for sure, but at least science is attempting to find the answers, and is making the best effort in presenting the most realistic and logical ones.

Hence why I said, "If an individual WERE"... and I am not intentionally twisting the argument into something I can argue with at all.

Science does not accept everything as a possibility. Using that logic, scientists could accept pink unicorns, or indigo-coloured elephants as being the cause of a certain unexplained event simply because anything is possible. I believe science narrows down the most probable, most rational of possibilities, and then goes from there. It is an endless cycle.

Look, you can deny reality till you're blue in the face but the fact is, that is how science works. Science disproves as many ideas as it can then uses Ockham's Razor to determine the currently accepted one(s). Sometimes it can't be narrowed down to one idea and that's when debates in science take place (plates vs. plumes for example)

Actually, we do have a very firm understanding as to how planets have formed, and how they will continue to form. Gravity and geological processes are all very important factors in terms of how planets are formed, and scientists have a very firm understand of both from what has been observed.

No. We don't. You may have a very dumbed down understanding of one of the theories from high school but the early Earth was so different to the one today that we really cannot say for sure what happened or how.

Geological processes are important but one of the favourite sayings of geologists is relevant here: The present is the key to the past. Essentially, much of what we know about the past Earth is due to observing the same processes today. However, in the Hadean, the Earth was so radically different to today (no liquid water, plate tectonics or solid landmasses to name just a few differences), that we do not have anything to help us understand. We don't even have any rocks that old so we know virtually nothing.

[Ugly1]

Here is your source of the info you just posted --> http://www.internetc...nsgotohell.html

Yes, a lot of the quotes came from there but not my personal experience. Not smart enough to figure out how to go back and edit to throw in that link. Also, I read the KJV of the bible, but it is very close to the verses quoted above.

By the way, what is your point by that post? I know the sources I looked at for a quick reference. Are you trying to make me lose credibility from doing a quick search online?

You seem to be in almost every Atheist thread that I've read Berri. Just remember that a million atheists patting you on the back, and encouraging you cannot do the same thing that 1 Jesus Christ can do.

You did not even try to talk about anything I discussed, but just tried to discredit me (How I took it) when I am telling people that they are not doomed even if they don't believe everything the church has told them. You are a sad, sad person.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ugly1

[Beckys_Mom]

By the way, what is your point by that post?

Ask a mod or the admin why do we need to post sources from sites we copy parts of info from ? I was being helpful.. Others might want to read that source...

Just remember that a million atheists patting you on the back

Wouldn't that hurt my back ?

You are a sad, sad person.

Ack you're just saying that lol

Edited October 25, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Just Dave]

I'm with you one this, but just want to point out that lack of proof is not proof of non-existence. Scientifically speaking, you can only make conclusions based on proof. No conclusions can be made without proof. Lack of proof = lack of conclusions. The issue of god is one science has to remain silent about since we can't establish proof one way or the other. Unlikely we will ever be able to make conclusions about godly things. A scientist can still have a belief though, such as the belief there is intelligent life somewhere else in the universe (as I do). There's no proof of it one way or the other, but I choose to believe it. One difference is that with ET, we can establish a statistical probability of it, and given the vastness of the universe it is very likely, but there's a difference between probability and reality. It's still a belief. Godly things is one step further since we can't even establish a probability for it, but how many things in our history have we discovered that we had no proof or probabilities of? Many.

Yes i too agree with you, partially... I strongly believe in outworldly civilizations like you do, but god is something... like a figment of imagination.. I am not crazy to buy in on talking burning bushes, faces in the sky, resurrections, making miracles as fast as water flows... sorry too ridiculous to me, but if any of this was proven in any weird way would change much but i highly doubt it..because all this wrote down a primitive man who had limited susception by hes or hers knowledge...

2 things stand out in bible;

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arthur C. Clarke

Well, when I was younger, I lied all the time, because once you understand the power of lying, it's really like magic because you transform reality for people.

Louis C. K.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Nuke_em

[Alienated Being]

No. We don't. You may have a very dumbed down understanding of one of the theories from high school but the early Earth was so different to the one today that we really cannot say for sure what happened or how.

Actually, no; it is more of a first year university level understanding of the various processes involved.

Geological processes are important but one of the favourite sayings of geologists is relevant here: The present is the key to the past. Essentially, much of what we know about the past Earth is due to observing the same processes today. However, in the Hadean, the Earth was so radically different to today (no liquid water, plate tectonics or solid landmasses to name just a few differences), that we do not have anything to help us understand. We don't even have any rocks that old so we know virtually nothing.

I find it interesting as to how you claim that we don't have an understanding as to how the Earth was formed, however in the very same post you assert that we know of what the Earth looked like during the Hadean. How do we know this? You really contradicted yourself in that post. How can we say for certain that the planet looked just as you described?

Edited October 25, 2012 by Alienated Being

[Setton]

Actually, no; it is more of a first year university level understanding of the various processes involved.

Ah. Wait till you get to third/fourth year. It all goes on it's head then.

I find it interesting as to how you claim that we don't have an understanding as to how the Earth was formed, however in the very same post you assert that we know of what the Earth looked like during the Hadean. How do we know this? You really contradicted yourself in that post. How can we say for certain that the planet looked just as you described?

Sorry, I didn't realise I needed to spell everything out. Obviously the state of the planet in the Hadean is purely theoretical. We don't know. The other key point is your failure to distinguish between what happened (which is relatively straight forward to model and/or deduce) and how it happened (where we really have nothing but guesswork). For example, at some point, plate tectonics started (we can see evidence of this today so it must be true). How they started? No way of knowing as there is next to nothing left from that far back in history. And formation of the Earth is at least 700 Ma earlier than that.

[scowl]

Many Bible verses support the idea that love for others is sufficient to keep you out of Hell.

But none of these things say anything about salvation.

Galatians 5:14 (RSV)

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your

neighbor as yourself."

Romans 13:8 (RSV)

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves

his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10 (RSV)

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling

of the law.

James 2:8 (RSV)

If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture,

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

Several verses say obeying the law isn't enough to guarantee salvation and there's quite a bit of confusion about what "the law" is exactly.

Proverbs 10:12 (RSV)

Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

Proverbs is before the concept of salvation so it doesn't count!

1 Peter 4:8 (RSV)

Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love

covers a multitude of sins.

But absence of sin doesn't guarantee salvation.

I think what is lost in many churches today is the love your neighbor. In my opinion that is creating a lot of Atheists and also not spreading the true word of Jesus Christ which is what our Christian faith is based on.

That's because if you pick up the Bible and start reading, you'll find anything but "love thy neighbor" in the first five books. The Israelites were commanded by God to commit genocide against their neighbors in order to take their land and to kill anyone who doesn't believe in God. Sometimes God got a little soft-hearted and ordered them to just enslave their neighbors (Leviticus 25:45). It's very clear to me that when the Old Testament encourages kindness to a "neighbor" (like in Leviticus 19:18 where the New Testament got the concept) it means "fellow Israelite", not people who don't worship God.

I suspect that in the New Testament these "neighbors" are also fellow Christians or potential Christians, not Romans or pagans or atheists who are to be shunned. That's how I interpret 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 anyway:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Then 2 Corinthians 6:17 drives the point home:

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "

I read that as "Give atheists a hard time. Don't invite them to your parties. Don't hang out with them at football games. Keep them out of your business organizations and your country clubs. They are 'unclean' and Jesus doesn't want you near them."

[Alienated Being]

Sorry, I didn't realise I needed to spell everything out. Obviously the state of the planet in the Hadean is purely theoretical. We don't know. The other key point is your failure to distinguish between what happened (which is relatively straight forward to model and/or deduce) and how it happened (where we really have nothing but guesswork). For example, at some point, plate tectonics started (we can see evidence of this today so it must be true). How they started? No way of knowing as there is next to nothing left from that far back in history. And formation of the Earth is at least 700 Ma earlier than that.

You stated it as if to accept it as being mere fact.

When it comes right down to it, you can simply argue that we don't really know what happened to make the Earth as it is today, nor do we know how it happened; we can only theorize on either side of that spectrum. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty.

[Setton]

You stated it as if to accept it as being mere fact.

When it comes right down to it, you can simply argue that we don't really know what happened to make the Earth as it is today, nor do we know how it happened; we can only theorize on either side of that spectrum. If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty.

And we have progress

[Ugly1]

But none of these things say anything about salvation.

Several verses say obeying the law isn't enough to guarantee salvation and there's quite a bit of confusion about what "the law" is exactly.

Proverbs is before the concept of salvation so it doesn't count!

But absence of sin doesn't guarantee salvation.

That's because if you pick up the Bible and start reading, you'll find anything but "love thy neighbor" in the first five books. The Israelites were commanded by God to commit genocide against their neighbors in order to take their land and to kill anyone who doesn't believe in God. Sometimes God got a little soft-hearted and ordered them to just enslave their neighbors (Leviticus 25:45). It's very clear to me that when the Old Testament encourages kindness to a "neighbor" (like in Leviticus 19:18 where the New Testament got the concept) it means "fellow Israelite", not people who don't worship God.

I suspect that in the New Testament these "neighbors" are also fellow Christians or potential Christians, not Romans or pagans or atheists who are to be shunned. That's how I interpret 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 anyway:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Then 2 Corinthians 6:17 drives the point home:

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. "

I read that as "Give atheists a hard time. Don't invite them to your parties. Don't hang out with them at football games. Keep them out of your business organizations and your country clubs. They are 'unclean' and Jesus doesn't want you near them."

I had heard when I was younger that the salvation was only meant for Jews. Well, that was before I started reading on my own. There are many verses in which it was specifically instructed to teach the gentiles. Even the dogs get the scraps from their masters table.

[GoldenWolf]

Even the dogs get the scraps from their masters table.

That bible verse is very misleading, it refers to astrology and three constellations:

Canis Minor, Canis Major, and Canes Venatici

He is condemning two astrological signs with great haughtiness (Cancer and Virgo).

Edited October 26, 2012 by HavocWing

[scowl]

I had heard when I was younger that the salvation was only meant for Jews.

There's confusion because to the Jews the messiah will be a man who will become an undisputed leader and will reunite the tribes of Israel to reclaim the Promised Land among other things. Jesus didn't do anything like that and the concept of a man/God fusion goes against several things in the Old Testament so he wasn't popular with them.

Well, that was before I started reading on my own. There are many verses in which it was specifically instructed to teach the gentiles. Even the dogs get the scraps from their masters table.

For Christianity to survive, it had to expand its membership beyond the Jewish community or it would have been forgotten like other similar Jewish reform movements at the time. This was a tremendously successful idea. Once the Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion, it was insured at least several hundred years of popularity. It was also able to survive adjustments during Medieval times and the Dark Ages right through the Industrial Age. It's a very malleable belief system.

On the "Do atheists get a hard time?" topic I found a Jesus quote that seems pretty clear to me. It's right after Matthew 10:34, Jesus's famous ode to peace and love: "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace but a sword!" Jesus continues...

Mathew 10:35-36:

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Mathew 10:37:

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a unusually direct command from Jesus. He's telling Christians that if there is an atheist in your family you shouldn't "agree to disagree" with them to keep the peace. You must turn against them because they are your "foe". Even if it's a son or daughter who you love dearly, you must choose the Lord over them because the Lord will not allow you to love anyone more than him.

[Ugly1]

That bible verse is very misleading, it refers to astrology and three constellations:

Canis Minor, Canis Major, and Canes Venatici

He is condemning two astrological signs with great haughtiness (Cancer and Virgo).

Umm, no it doesn't. Lol.

Jesus: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27:And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28:Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

If you don't want to accept that as being evidence that the gospel was meant for more than just Jews then let's take a look at a different bible verse.

Acts 9:15, But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kins, and the children of Israel.

[Ugly1]

There's confusion because to the Jews the messiah will be a man who will become an undisputed leader and will reunite the tribes of Israel to reclaim the Promised Land among other things. Jesus didn't do anything like that and the concept of a man/God fusion goes against several things in the Old Testament so he wasn't popular with them.

For Christianity to survive, it had to expand its membership beyond the Jewish community or it would have been forgotten like other similar Jewish reform movements at the time. This was a tremendously successful idea. Once the Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion, it was insured at least several hundred years of popularity. It was also able to survive adjustments during Medieval times and the Dark Ages right through the Industrial Age. It's a very malleable belief system.

On the "Do atheists get a hard time?" topic I found a Jesus quote that seems pretty clear to me. It's right after Matthew 10:34, Jesus's famous ode to peace and love: "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace but a sword!" Jesus continues...

Mathew 10:35-36:

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Mathew 10:37:

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a unusually direct command from Jesus. He's telling Christians that if there is an atheist in your family you shouldn't "agree to disagree" with them to keep the peace. You must turn against them because they are your "foe". Even if it's a son or daughter who you love dearly, you must choose the Lord over them because the Lord will not allow you to love anyone more than him.

You need to read the entire parable to understand sayings like this.

Matthew 10:25: It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26: Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

So yes, if there is evil in your home bringing in god will turn Father against son, son against father. Beelzebub (Satan) is not going to just sit back while someone is being a Christian in the house and there just be peace. Say we are brothers, and you are off chanting in your room trying to summon a demon with an Ouiji board, and i'm in the next room meditating to god. We are going to have problems with eachother. Brother will be turned on brother.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: For all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

[Ugly1]

There's confusion because to the Jews the messiah will be a man who will become an undisputed leader and will reunite the tribes of Israel to reclaim the Promised Land among other things. Jesus didn't do anything like that and the concept of a man/God fusion goes against several things in the Old Testament so he wasn't popular with them.

For Christianity to survive, it had to expand its membership beyond the Jewish community or it would have been forgotten like other similar Jewish reform movements at the time. This was a tremendously successful idea. Once the Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion, it was insured at least several hundred years of popularity. It was also able to survive adjustments during Medieval times and the Dark Ages right through the Industrial Age. It's a very malleable belief system.

On the "Do atheists get a hard time?" topic I found a Jesus quote that seems pretty clear to me. It's right after Matthew 10:34, Jesus's famous ode to peace and love: "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth: I came not to send peace but a sword!" Jesus continues...

Mathew 10:35-36:

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Mathew 10:37:

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a unusually direct command from Jesus. He's telling Christians that if there is an atheist in your family you shouldn't "agree to disagree" with them to keep the peace. You must turn against them because they are your "foe". Even if it's a son or daughter who you love dearly, you must choose the Lord over them because the Lord will not allow you to love anyone more than him.

And yes, you are correct. You must choose the Lord over them.

Hey I'm not saying that is easy! I'm not even saying that I could do that if it came down to choosing! But, I don't make the rules, I just play in the game. I think what is trying to be emphasized is that we are here for the blink of an eye then we are gone in the grand scheme of things.

[scowl]

You need to read the entire parable to understand sayings like this.

Matthew 10:25: It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26: Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

So yes, if there is evil in your home bringing in god will turn Father against son, son against father. Beelzebub (Satan) is not going to just sit back while someone is being a Christian in the house and there just be peace. Say we are brothers, and you are off chanting in your room trying to summon a demon with an Ouiji board, and i'm in the next room meditating to god. We are going to have problems with eachother. Brother will be turned on brother.

Yes, but why would an atheist held any higher than a Satan-worshiper? I see nothing that says or implies one is better than the other, only that a person either believes in Jesus or they don't. If your children don't believe in Jesus you must choose to stop loving them. You are not allowed to say, "Well my kid doesn't believe in Jesus anymore but I still love him all the same." You're not allowed to love your atheist child.

Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: For all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

So you think the "sword" Jesus was referring to was the actual sword that appears seventeen chapters later, not a metaphorical sword? How was Jesus planning to send "the Earth" this actual sword as he said?

Hey I'm not saying that is easy! I'm not even saying that I could do that if it came down to choosing! But, I don't make the rules, I just play in the game. I think what is trying to be emphasized is that we are here for the blink of an eye then we are gone in the grand scheme of things.

Oddly another Christian here was scolding me for emphasizing Christianity's focus on salvation too much!

[Mr Walker]

Yeah, I don't think so and this is why... Children often don't even recognize what they are feeling. Hence, it is often useful to say to a child who is throwing a tantrum, "You look mad" (mimic their facial expression). This helps the child to identify whith what he or she is feeling. They do not have the vocabulary nor the intellect to know exactly what the problem is. They just know there is a problem! Thus, I do not believe that anyone is born with a innate knowledge/understanding of a god. this concept is simply beyond their faculties.

So, what happens is that someone, as in the example above, labels the situation/cause/"what-have-you" as being directly or indirectly related to a god and BAM! Said variable is or must be God. It is taught!

The god concept is a learned one, not an innate one.

Argue with the scientists not me. I never said it was innate, Like language the ability is innate It is constructed within the childs mind by an understood process of thought. A child with no external exposure to the concept of god but with the ability to think using language WILL develop the concept of god.The y "have to" to explain the natural environment and happenings around them because they lack data to otherwise interpret what is going on.