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Do atheists get a hard time?

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I don't agree entirely with you there, Mr Walker. If god is a real and evolved part of our universe this would turn over a lot of religious dogma - especially that god was the prime cause of all creation.

However, I take your point on a general principle.

There are many logical and physical reasons why a real physical god cannot be the prime cause of creation, or even truly omniscient or omnipotent. The main one is the unanswerable question or questions eg. Not just; how did such a god come into existence, but; how did it achieve self aware sapience and all that entails? In the real world there must be real, physical logical and scientific answers to those questions, not just theological or metaphysical ones.Those reasons have been pretty thoroughly thrashed out here and elsewhere.

Sapience is an evolved property, and a god with self aware sapience, therefore, must have evolved that property during its own evolution. For forty years my mind has had to face the fact that such a real and physical god exists. No room for belief for disbelief in knowledge although room for plenty of questions

.That does influence my thinking on the nature of god. Since you (generic) don't have the luxury of constructing god as you would like or hope him to be, you have to examine god as it is, using the same tools and methods you use to examine any other physical thing.

But unless you have knowledge of god, you are forced to chose between belief /disbelief, or suspension of belief/disbelief. Within a belief in god, any construct is theoretically possible, and people tend to create perceptions or even actual constructs of god, "to fit" their wider beliefs, values, ethics and moralities. Otherwise, they do not fit comfortably with their god.

Edited by Mr Walker

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I would think that generally on this site atheists are not given a hard time, partly perhaps because such sites as this will attract a higher number of them. It is in real life that problems occur. In western democracies theists see themselves as under attack from a particularly noisy and intolerant form of atheism. Yet curiously in Russia it was announced a few days back that the Church is to be allowed to participate in political affairs. This is disturbing as some, as yet fringe elements, call for death for various groups, gays for instance, and infact even those they regard as pagans, as they see paganism as satanism. I can see why atheists shout loudly though. Looking at the horrors of 20th century it can be seen that a return to the events of the link I give can easily happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%BCrzburg_witch_trial

There is no limit to the power of fear and hysteria, and I have to say that these forces are usually raised by the religions of the book, or at least two of them, as Jews are often the victims.

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A lot of us Atheists don't want to be associated with The Freedom From Religion Foundation any more than Christians want to be associated with the Phelps can. They reflect badly on the rest of us. The last thing I would want to do is try and tell anyone how they should live their life and I think the Atheists that try to convert people are hypocrites.

We all have the same frustrations my friend. I just ignore village atheist, let them rant, the way I do people from Westboro Baptist church.

Peace

Mark

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I would think that generally on this site atheists are not given a hard time, partly perhaps because such sites as this will attract a higher number of them. It is in real life that problems occur. In western democracies theists see themselves as under attack from a particularly noisy and intolerant form of atheism. Yet curiously in Russia it was announced a few days back that the Church is to be allowed to participate in political affairs. This is disturbing as some, as yet fringe elements, call for death for various groups, gays for instance, and infact even those they regard as pagans, as they see paganism as satanism. I can see why atheists shout loudly though. Looking at the horrors of 20th century it can be seen that a return to the events of the link I give can easily happen.

http://en.wikipedia....urg_witch_trial

There is no limit to the power of fear and hysteria, and I have to say that these forces are usually raised by the religions of the book, or at least two of them, as Jews are often the victims.

Religion and politics should never marry, the will to power is too great and it will attract power hungry people who want high office and want to control. Politics by itself is bad enough, but with religion, HOLY SH-T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe religious people should speak up when it comes to politics, but not as a ruling factor. Force never works, never will, at least in the long run. Look at the communist movement, again those in power wanted more. In the end, everything was lost with a great loss of life.

Peace

mark

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There are many logical and physical reasons why a real physical god cannot be the prime cause of creation, or even truly omniscient or omnipotent. The main one is the unanswerable question or questions eg. Not just; how did such a god come into existence, but; how did it achieve self aware sapience and all that entails? In the real world there must be real, physical logical and scientific answers to those questions, not just theological or metaphysical ones.Those reasons have been pretty thoroughly thrashed out here and elsewhere.

Sapience is an evolved property, and a god with self aware sapience, therefore, must have evolved that property during its own evolution. For forty years my mind has had to face the fact that such a real and physical god exists. No room for belief for disbelief in knowledge although room for plenty of questions

.That does influence my thinking on the nature of god. Since you (generic) don't have the luxury of constructing god as you would like or hope him to be, you have to examine god as it is, using the same tools and methods you use to examine any other physical thing.

But unless you have knowledge of god, you are forced to chose between belief /disbelief, or suspension of belief/disbelief. Within a belief in god, any construct is theoretically possible, and people tend to create perceptions or even actual constructs of god, "to fit" their wider beliefs, values, ethics and moralities. Otherwise, they do not fit comfortably with their god.

If what you say is true, then you are in communication with just another life form, though more powerful and intelligent, however not God by a long stretch. You are saying creation preceded God, so God was created by creation???? Backwards I believe.

Edited by markdohle

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double post

Edited by markdohle

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If what you say is true, then you are in communication with just another life form, though more powerful and intelligent, however not God by a long stretch. You are saying creation preceded God, so God was created by creation???? Backwards I believe.

NO I am defining the god I know and love. As far as i know, there is no creator god who created the universe. That is a physical impossibility.

I am not a believer in god nor a constructor of a conceptual/ metaphysical/ theological idea of god. I know an entity that acts like god and has the power of god, who lives within me and all about me. It fits the description given by humans through out human history, of god. A real, sympathetic caring personal, involved and powerful god is a lot more useful than the most omniprescent omniscient and omnipotent god which only exists as a mental construct of people as a belief based on faith.

Such gods do have constructive purposes, but not for me A real god is of course "just another life form" . What else, in reality, could it be. Even a god with the power of creation is onlypossible as another evolved entity. In a few centuries humans will have the knowledge and the power to do all the things attributed to the god of the bible, old and new testament.

Edited by Mr Walker

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You know, I think the main point of the OP's thread is that, the act of Christians denouncing UFOist and ghost's experiencers claims is hyporcritical. I think one poster's point is a good answer, where it may seem to theist's point of view of their attacks are right since they are higher in numbers than to the UFOists and ghost enthusiests. (in my feeling, there might be more people with experiences with UFOs and Ghost's encounters from what I have read and heard, and more from theists who haven't realized the experiences for what they are. That can also be said of religious experiences being regarded for something else from non-theist.)

I think it does seem actions are done more from more in numbers, which of course, doesn't make it right. I have noticed in the past, when I was an Atheist for a small time or was percieved as one, the amount of denouncing and attacks and lectures toward me. I grew up secular, so I never had an orthadoxed set of beliefs or life growing up, yet I have my own set of very strong beliefs that have come from life experiences. When I explain I am not an Atheist, yet not a Christian, Muslim, Morman, etc, yet I name my own spiritual belief system, I get more of an tolerant acceptance and we agree on how our lives benefit from our individual belief systems. Which gives me a second reason I think that UFOist and Ghost enthusiests get villified, because they are misunderstood. Again, that is not acceptable and again I find that hypocritical. In other words, a very good point on the OP for pointing this out.

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We all have the same frustrations my friend. I just ignore village atheist, let them rant, the way I do people from Westboro Baptist church.

Peace

Mark

If you lived over here, it would never be the atheists you would hear rant at you.. no.. It would be the protestants that will rant and rave at you for being catholic... And vice versa of course... Sometimes, Christians can be their own worst enemy..

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I am not an atheist,I have my own religeous beliefs,but Some religeous people get very insulting when you dont agree with them.There is no need for people with either view to condemn people who dont agree.

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I am not an atheist,I have my own religeous beliefs,but Some religeous people get very insulting when you dont agree with them.There is no need for people with either view to condemn people who dont agree.

They think it is their god given right, yet they cry persecution when people fight back.

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I myself, do not know whether or not god actually exists but I don't believe he does.

On many occasions I have been told my beliefs or lack of are wrong, what I don't understand is why can't we have our own beliefs without being criticised.

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HELL YES WE DO!!! Ofcourse i work in a governement office. They pretty much think im the devil and refuse to hear why i am an athiest.. pretty much when i say i dont believe in god they give me the eye of rejection and walk away. Funny thing is i NEVER bring it up they always have to point it out. During all religious holidays i keep my mouth shut and play along. i have kids and want them to enjoy the religious holidays i.e. christmas because it is a time of joy. I dont push my beliefs onto my kids or anyone else. Yet im always the bad guy because of this....i dont have problem being the bad guy lol its kinda fun and im used to it. But still i have to walk on egg shells and i get introuble if i fire back at them cuz they get offended at the drop of a dust partical..... :gun:

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cuz they get offended at the drop of a dust partical..... :gun:

Ain't that the truth.

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What else, in reality, could it be.

Oh, I don't know; perhaps your imagination?

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Oh, I don't know; perhaps your imagination?

Doesnt anyone ever read a sentence in context anymore?

A real god is of course "just another life form" . What else, in reality, could it be

If a real god exists then, it is not imaginary. If a real god exists, then it is a life form. What(other than a life form) could a real god be?

One possible answer is a constructed artificial intelligence. In my terminology such a sentient artificial consrtruct is still a life form because of its self aware sapience.

Now to speak of the god i know. It is impossible for me to determine if it is a natural evolved organic entity like myself or a constructed artificial entity produced by others. Thats partly becaus,e of my position vis a vis it, and partly because of a lack of advanced tools to interpret it. Advanced technology is always incomprehensible to a lesser level of technology, if it is advanced enough. . The cosmic consciousness could be an organic based consciousness like ourselves, or an artificial intelligence/consciousness. From my /our perspective as yet, there is no way to know

Edited by Mr Walker

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If a real god exists then, it is not imaginary. If a real god exists, then it is a life form. What(other than a life form) could a real god be?

It all depends on how you define a god.

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I would just like for a believer to explain things with out using the words "believe" or "faith". How about some truth and facts?? I don't want to hear bible riddles or how it depends on the context in which to take it. I want some things actually explained in a logical and factual way. I don't get mad that people believe in what they do, I get irritated that no one who does believe will admit that they just believe and that they don't know for a fact and that they might JUST might be wrong in teaching young kids that they'll go to hell if they don't believe what they do. You don't have any facts and you never will because you don't get the gifts of god until you die and you don't believe in past lives. So maybe stop being so hard headed and stop teaching it as though its fact. I think that's what gets most people is that you DON'T KNOW but you act as though its fact.

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You're wrong Viv! Have faith. Blind faith. & don't question. There's no possible way you might die & find out that you wasted your time in doing so.

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I would just like for a believer to explain things with out using the words "believe" or "faith". How about some truth and facts?? I don't want to hear bible riddles or how it depends on the context in which to take it. I want some things actually explained in a logical and factual way. I don't get mad that people believe in what they do, I get irritated that no one who does believe will admit that they just believe and that they don't know for a fact and that they might JUST might be wrong in teaching young kids that they'll go to hell if they don't believe what they do. You don't have any facts and you never will because you don't get the gifts of god until you die and you don't believe in past lives. So maybe stop being so hard headed and stop teaching it as though its fact. I think that's what gets most people is that you DON'T KNOW but you act as though its fact.

Fair question, but you must realise there is no "logical" way to answer the "problem" of existence. There is no hope that logic and reason can land a blow on it. The greatest delusion of all is to believe it is coming, somewhere in the future through science. Will not, and cannot happen.

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It all depends on how you define a god.

The word god is a linguistic construct attached to a physical or metaphysical "entity", Humans made up the word and generally establish the terms /parameters which attach to it.

So just as a dog is a dog; a god is a god. There is considerable "wriggle room" within the definition/parameters, just as there is within the word dog (they come in all shapes and sizes)

In general, in my terms; if it walks like a god, talks like a god, acts like a god and has the powers of a god, and especially if it takes an interest in you, then it can accurately and properly be called a god.

Human gods have taken a huge variety of forms from the sky god of ghengis khan through the gods of ancient egypt, china, bablylonia and meso america, through the gods of the book, up to modern forms of god, like gaea in its modern form.

There can be non physical and non real gods which are just thought/mental constructs, but in this case i was specificalyreferring to a physical, sapient entity existing with independent form, awareness and purpose.

Ps i dont get the point of the link provided. I assumed it would take me to your favoured definition of a god or gods. Narcissistic disorders have nothing to do with gods, real or imaginary.Iif it was a dig at how you perceive me, it went right over my head. I am the physical and spiritual/philosophical opposite to a narcissist, what ever that may be. I am one with the universe. no greater nor no less than all other elements and intelligences within that universe. I have an important role to play as an integral part of the universe, but no more than anyone else is capable of playing.

Ps as well as having a personal interest in my own mental health, I did two years of psychology at university, in my third and fourth years there. I am an experienced (10 ) years student counsellor of adolescents and a teacher of physical and mental health as a professional educator over a couple of decades. While i thank you for your concern, I can assure you that, while i have an exceptionally healthy self esteem and self awareness /confidence, I have none of the pathological traits of a narcissist. :innocent:

Edited by Mr Walker

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I would just like for a believer to explain things with out using the words "believe" or "faith". How about some truth and facts?? I don't want to hear bible riddles or how it depends on the context in which to take it. I want some things actually explained in a logical and factual way. I don't get mad that people believe in what they do, I get irritated that no one who does believe will admit that they just believe and that they don't know for a fact and that they might JUST might be wrong in teaching young kids that they'll go to hell if they don't believe what they do. You don't have any facts and you never will because you don't get the gifts of god until you die and you don't believe in past lives. So maybe stop being so hard headed and stop teaching it as though its fact. I think that's what gets most people is that you DON'T KNOW but you act as though its fact.

I'll put it very simply but only speak for myself.

I know god exists, precisely as i know my dog exists and for the same reasons of evidence logic and common sense. God offers to me, through ongoing, coherent, contextual physical evidences, just as much proof of his existence as my dog does. So if can know my dog exists, why cannot i know my god exists? If you want to go all existentialist and claim i cant know anything exists fair enough, but that is a non scientific and silly/non productive general world view If oyu want to argue that my evidences for my god dont convince you then i agree And add "why should they?" Why should you believe either in my dog or my god . One answer, logically, is that you should not.

You have no evidences for either's existence. But of course that has no bearing on the reality/actuality of existence of my dog or my god. What you believe while it has meaning, comfort and relevance for you, has no bearing/ influence on their existence or relevance to their reality and independent existence. My dog doesnt rely on or require your belief to exist And he is totally unconcerned wha tyou think of him My god doesnt rely on your belief for his existence. I cant speak for how your disbelief bothers him. Possibly as little as it does my dog.

Ps I have no evidence for heaven or hell after death. Hell is actually non bilbical. So is ascencion to heaven at death. The bible actually says that when we die we sleep. And are resurrected for judgement on the two judgement days. But i dont believe /disbelieve that either. I do know that god in your life on earth can make your life, here and now, heaven on earth. God can empower you and change you, so that you can live as a spiritual being, unafraid and without any of the negative concerns of many humans. No anger, hate, greed, lust, envy etc., just love, peace, joy, power, courage and strength.

Living with god here and now is physically possible. It transforms you totally and is indisputably real. The gifts of god in my experience, are not just physically real, but absolutely freely available and acessible to any and every human being, all the time they are alive on earth. You dont need religion, just faith, because god lives in you and all about you. You only have to recognise this in your heart and mind and open yourself to god.

In my experience, he will "enter into you" and become one with you, after which almost anything is humanly possible. God is already in us, but when we open ourselves to him it feels as if he is entering us. Rather, to be more accurate, our consciousness is becoming fully aware of his presence .

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haters will always hate, no matter what its about.

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The word god is a linguistic construct attached to a physical or metaphysical "entity", Humans made up the word and generally establish the terms /parameters which attach to it.

So just as a dog is a dog; a god is a god. There is considerable "wriggle room" within the definition/parameters, just as there is within the word dog (they come in all shapes and sizes)

In general, in my terms; if it walks like a god, talks like a god, acts like a god and has the powers of a god, and especially if it takes an interest in you, then it can accurately and properly be called a god.

Human gods have taken a huge variety of forms from the sky god of ghengis khan through the gods of ancient egypt, china, bablylonia and meso america, through the gods of the book, up to modern forms of god, like gaea in its modern form.

There can be non physical and non real gods which are just thought/mental constructs, but in this case i was specificalyreferring to a physical, sapient entity existing with independent form, awareness and purpose.

Ps i dont get the point of the link provided. I assumed it would take me to your favoured definition of a god or gods. Narcissistic disorders have nothing to do with gods, real or imaginary.Iif it was a dig at how you perceive me, it went right over my head. I am the physical and spiritual/philosophical opposite to a narcissist, what ever that may be. I am one with the universe. no greater nor no less than all other elements and intelligences within that universe. I have an important role to play as an integral part of the universe, but no more than anyone else is capable of playing.

Ps as well as having a personal interest in my own mental health, I did two years of psychology at university, in my third and fourth years there. I am an experienced (10 ) years student counsellor of adolescents and a teacher of physical and mental health as a professional educator over a couple of decades. While i thank you for your concern, I can assure you that, while i have an exceptionally healthy self esteem and self awareness /confidence, I have none of the pathological traits of a narcissist. :innocent:

N.P.D. has everything to with being a god, it is their very personality. That would be the self styled humans.

I never even mentioned anything about you having N.P.D., but if you fancy yourself a god..

I apply the same mnemonic they use for h.p.d. to narcissists as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder#Mnemonic

Edited by HavocWing

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I'll put it very simply but only speak for myself.

I know god exists, precisely as i know my dog exists and for the same reasons of evidence logic and common sense. God offers to me, through ongoing, coherent, contextual physical evidences, just as much proof of his existence as my dog does. So if can know my dog exists, why cannot i know my god exists? If you want to go all existentialist and claim i cant know anything exists fair enough, but that is a non scientific and silly/non productive general world view If oyu want to argue that my evidences for my god dont convince you then i agree And add "why should they?" Why should you believe either in my dog or my god . One answer, logically, is that you should not.

You have no evidences for either's existence. But of course that has no bearing on the reality/actuality of existence of my dog or my god. What you believe while it has meaning, comfort and relevance for you, has no bearing/ influence on their existence or relevance to their reality and independent existence. My dog doesnt rely on or require your belief to exist And he is totally unconcerned wha tyou think of him My god doesnt rely on your belief for his existence. I cant speak for how your disbelief bothers him. Possibly as little as it does my dog.

Ps I have no evidence for heaven or hell after death. Hell is actually non bilbical. So is ascencion to heaven at death. The bible actually says that when we die we sleep. And are resurrected for judgement on the two judgement days. But i dont believe /disbelieve that either. I do know that god in your life on earth can make your life, here and now, heaven on earth. God can empower you and change you, so that you can live as a spiritual being, unafraid and without any of the negative concerns of many humans. No anger, hate, greed, lust, envy etc., just love, peace, joy, power, courage and strength.

Living with god here and now is physically possible. It transforms you totally and is indisputably real. The gifts of god in my experience, are not just physically real, but absolutely freely available and acessible to any and every human being, all the time they are alive on earth. You dont need religion, just faith, because god lives in you and all about you. You only have to recognise this in your heart and mind and open yourself to god.

In my experience, he will "enter into you" and become one with you, after which almost anything is humanly possible. God is already in us, but when we open ourselves to him it feels as if he is entering us. Rather, to be more accurate, our consciousness is becoming fully aware of his presence .

How do you KNOW?? Have you ever seen him, met him, maybe had coffee with him? Your dog you can touch, see and hear as can everyone else who visits your home...unless you kennel God I don't think its true for him. And I'm not saying there is or there isn't a GOD for a fact as I don't know. I chose not to have blind faith in one though.

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