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Ben Masada

Five Evidences that Jesus Could Have Survived

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FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS

Before presenting here the following evidences that Jesus could have survived the cross, I take it as my duty to clarify my point, that I am not affirming that Jesus survived the cross, but that he could have. In other words, to say that Jesus died on the cross is not 100% safe to assert. It is just one more item of faith, with a high probability to have been true.

1 - According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, "It was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back up to three or four days till death would eventually catch up on them." Jesus was removed from his cross after only a few hours.

2 - According to Mark 15:44, when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross for burial, Pilate, an expert in the crufixion of thousands of Jews, "Was deeply concerned and surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Therefore, he summoned the Centurion to verify." Considering that the Roman soldiers were highly

corrupt and that Joseph was quite a rich man in Israel, God knows the size of a possible bribe which affected the reply of the Centurion to Pilate that Jesus was already dead.

3 - According to Mark 16:1, when that Sabbath was over, which in Israel is at sunset, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to Jesus' tomb to anoint his body, when they were surprised to see that the tombstone was removed and the tomb was empty. According to Mat. 28:2, there was an earthquake, an angel came down, removed the tombstone and became equally surprised that the tomb was indeed empty. Never mind the three days and three nights of Mat. 12:40. That supposed-to-be prophecy never got fulfilled.

4 - According to John 19:39, Nicodemus, another rich man in Israel, had brought along about 100 pounds of medication to help Joseph take care of Jesus. It is highly possible that Joseph laid Jesus in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two to prevent unnecessary onlookers and returned later with his men to remove Jesus unto another safer place to mend his wounds.

5 - According to Acts 1:3, Luke said that, "After his suffering, aka, passion, Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days with many convincing proofs that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and driking with his disciples to prove he was not dead. (Luke 24:42,43) Focus that Luke said that Jesus appeared after his suffering (passion) and not after his death. And, if we consider resurrection here, the evidence goes way out of proportion because, to eat and drink after resurretion just as one used to before death, brings down the whole concept of the Pauline gospel of spiritual body. (I Cor. 15:35-44)

Ben

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When the Romans crucified someone they were not taken down until they were dead. Legs were broken, or in Jesus case he was pierced by a spear. In any case, after being scourged, crowned with thorns, nailed through the wrist and feet on the cross, I doubt even if he lived he would be able to appear before the apostles, or even walk or use his hands. He rose from the dead, that is the whole point of the New Testament, a document that tells us of the early experiences with the risen Lord.

Peace

Mark

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I agree with all your points, Ben. I think your point #5 is the best proof that Jesus did not die on the cross.

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Give me five pieces of evidence to prove he existed.

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Posted (edited)

I guess that's possible. How much of this stuff was written at the time of the crucifixion or hundreds of years afterward? Stories passed down by mouth often change, embellished upon.

Edited by Hilander

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You omit the Nag Hammadi Scrolls where in The Second Treatise of the Great Seth it has Jesus saying,

"And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance."

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"or in Jesus case he was pierced by a spear." - Mark

Which pierced his pericardium thus allowing the fluid around his heart to leak out which allowed his heart to start beating again. When they cut him down from the cross Jesus flopped on the ground and the resulting whomp was enough to allow his heart to slowly start beating again. I suspect he was in a deep coma. I doubt anyone at that time had ever seen anyone crucified who lived to talk about it so I suspect that is why they thought he was a god. People of the first century were a very superstitious people.

I have studied in depth both the New Testament and Near Death Experiences and a lot of Jesus's stories of "the Kingdom of Heaven" are very similar to what many near death experiences report their sojourn in heaven taught them.

I believe Christianity at it's very heart is a near death experience religion and the New Testament is a highly embellished and out of sequence near death experience story. It has been added onto and embellished but when I read certain parts of it, especially Jesus's stories about what the Kingdom of Heaven is like, it bears a striking resemblance to what I have read in many NDE descriptions.

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Give me five pieces of evidence to prove he existed.

That too!

Here here!

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That too!

Here here!

I lean toward your argument but we have to admit that there is historical evidence for Pontius Pilate, Joseph of Arimathea and the disciples James and John. As circumstancial as it may be, they were still people reportedly associated to one degree or another with a man called Jesus.

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I lean toward your argument but we have to admit that there is historical evidence for Pontius Pilate, Joseph of Arimathea and the disciples James and John. As circumstancial as it may be, they were still people reportedly associated to one degree or another with a man called Jesus.

And I'm going to have to agree with that too. Curse you for making me be open minded!! :rofl:

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Well there has to be an explanation about this. I don't believe the "Son of God" nonsense, though think that in all probability a man named Jesus did exist. The five points presented here seem quite reasonable and believable.

I have always wondered what evidence was available to the emperor Julian the "Apostate", for him to state that Christians were atheists, and to re-open, until his death, the pagan temples. I think there was clear evidence, long destroyed by Christians, that Jesus was simply a mortal man. Perhaps after recovering from his wounds, this Jesus went into hiding in Egypt, again. And further thoughts on that probably belong on a different topic...

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It's an interesting read. But I doubt we'll really know the truth unless someone time traveled to witness the event and document it.

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i guess that could have been true, maybe he did survive, especially seeing as he was supposed to have came back to life and people saw him, whos to say he didnt just go back to heaven or die or anything after that, but instead moved far away and lived a long life.

but it happened so long ago he certainly isnt alive now.

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Jesus died of suffocation.. he could not survive that..

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There is also texts out there that convey that Jesus was NEVER crucified. That someone else in Jesus' place was crucified and that Jesus was laughing like a mad man at the whole scene. Wish I could recall in where this story was. <_<

SINcerely,

:devil:

Edit: Dr. D provided it already. :nw:

Edited by Dying Seraph

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OK. Imagine you were born in 1300. Imagine how you'd feel if you found a scroll that mentioned a future invention. It said a device existed with 2 prongs on the end like a fork, that could be pushed into a wall with 2 holes in it, and with a press of a switch on the wall, the device would light up and sound would come out of it, voices and music from thin air.

How would you feel? Scared? Suspicious? Utter nonsense? Would you throw it in the fire in mockery and perhaps ignorance, or would you store it, and wait, even asking someone or sharing what you've found?

My point is, just because you are not alive at the time something happened, and it seems impossible or inconceivable, doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just because you hadn't read this before I wrote it, didn't mean you never would.

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OK. Imagine you were born in 1300. Imagine how you'd feel if you found a scroll that mentioned a future invention. It said a device existed with 2 prongs on the end like a fork, that could be pushed into a wall with 2 holes in it, and with a press of a switch on the wall, the device would light up and sound would come out of it, voices and music from thin air.

How would you feel? Scared? Suspicious? Utter nonsense? Would you throw it in the fire in mockery and perhaps ignorance, or would you store it, and wait, even asking someone or sharing what you've found?

My point is, just because you are not alive at the time something happened, and it seems impossible or inconceivable, doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just because you hadn't read this before I wrote it, didn't mean you never would.

While there have always been, and still are, some people who are ignorant and stupid, I believe that most people would quickly become accustomed to anything thrown at them, and not behave as ignorant savages. People back then were no less intelligent than we are now. Introduce a cellphone and the means to produce them into medeival society, and I think within a year they will all be as crazy about such things as we are.

If you say that because we were not alive when the Jesus mythology was created , it does not mean it did not occur, then this also holds true for anything. It means that all mythology can be fact, not just the Jesus mythology. 2,000 years of dogma, obfuscation, trickery and persecution of non-believers does not make a lie the truth.

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FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS

Before presenting here the following evidences that Jesus could have survived the cross, I take it as my duty to clarify my point, that I am not affirming that Jesus survived the cross, but that he could have. In other words, to say that Jesus died on the cross is not 100% safe to assert. It is just one more item of faith, with a high probability to have been true.

1 - According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, "It was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back up to three or four days till death would eventually catch up on them." Jesus was removed from his cross after only a few hours.

2 - According to Mark 15:44, when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross for burial, Pilate, an expert in the crufixion of thousands of Jews, "Was deeply concerned and surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Therefore, he summoned the Centurion to verify." Considering that the Roman soldiers were highly

corrupt and that Joseph was quite a rich man in Israel, God knows the size of a possible bribe which affected the reply of the Centurion to Pilate that Jesus was already dead.

3 - According to Mark 16:1, when that Sabbath was over, which in Israel is at sunset, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to Jesus' tomb to anoint his body, when they were surprised to see that the tombstone was removed and the tomb was empty. According to Mat. 28:2, there was an earthquake, an angel came down, removed the tombstone and became equally surprised that the tomb was indeed empty. Never mind the three days and three nights of Mat. 12:40. That supposed-to-be prophecy never got fulfilled.

4 - According to John 19:39, Nicodemus, another rich man in Israel, had brought along about 100 pounds of medication to help Joseph take care of Jesus. It is highly possible that Joseph laid Jesus in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two to prevent unnecessary onlookers and returned later with his men to remove Jesus unto another safer place to mend his wounds.

5 - According to Acts 1:3, Luke said that, "After his suffering, aka, passion, Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days with many convincing proofs that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and driking with his disciples to prove he was not dead. (Luke 24:42,43) Focus that Luke said that Jesus appeared after his suffering (passion) and not after his death. And, if we consider resurrection here, the evidence goes way out of proportion because, to eat and drink after resurretion just as one used to before death, brings down the whole concept of the Pauline gospel of spiritual body. (I Cor. 15:35-44)

Ben

Did you just watch 'The Man from Earth'?

If not, I think you'd like it.

Edit: It's actually an interesting and thought provoking movie, albeit far-fetched...

Edited by Timonthy

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Why is it called 'Jesus mythology'? Legends often become myths, but why? An old story somehow becomes unbelievable?

Who are humans to say that all mythology is a lie? Some may be unreal, some may be real. Only God really knows what he created.

I do believe some people would go crazy on the technology, some people would be just like now, and see the money that could be made. I was mostly pointing to the fact that there are always cynics, those who would have to stick their hand in a fire to see what would happen, they wouldn't listen to warnings because they have to see it to believe it.

obviously i realise not all people are not like that.

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When the Romans crucified someone they were not taken down until they were dead. Legs were broken, or in Jesus case he was pierced by a spear. In any case, after being scourged, crowned with thorns, nailed through the wrist and feet on the cross, I doubt even if he lived he would be able to appear before the apostles, or even walk or use his hands. He rose from the dead, that is the whole point of the New Testament, a document that tells us of the early experiences with the risen Lord.

Peace

Mark

Flavius Josephus, a great Jewish Historian of the First Century says in his book "The Antiquities of the Jews" that only in the First Century, the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. Now, try to picture Romans soldiers spear-piercing thousands of crucifieds to check if they were indeed dead. This policy was never in the Roman agenda. It was probably plagiarized from Zechariah 12:10 by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels, when that quote in Zechariah doesn't even have anything to do with crucifixion.

Ben

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Give me five pieces of evidence to prove he existed.

1. His Jewish knowledge of Jewish culture.

2. Thousands of books that have been written about him.

3. Josephus does not mention him in his writings.

4. Pilate, later, in retirement, asked about Jesus of Nazareth, was wondering: "Jesus... Jesus of Nazareth... No, I can't remember him." This is from "The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity (page 23) by the scholar John McManners.

5. That's all. I think you are right: He did not exist.

Ben

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"or in Jesus case he was pierced by a spear." - Mark

Which pierced his pericardium thus allowing the fluid around his heart to leak out which allowed his heart to start beating again. When they cut him down from the cross Jesus flopped on the ground and the resulting whomp was enough to allow his heart to slowly start beating again. I suspect he was in a deep coma. I doubt anyone at that time had ever seen anyone crucified who lived to talk about it so I suspect that is why they thought he was a god. People of the first century were a very superstitious people.

I have studied in depth both the New Testament and Near Death Experiences and a lot of Jesus's stories of "the Kingdom of Heaven" are very similar to what many near death experiences report their sojourn in heaven taught them.

I believe Christianity at it's very heart is a near death experience religion and the New Testament is a highly embellished and out of sequence near death experience story. It has been added onto and embellished but when I read certain parts of it, especially Jesus's stories about what the Kingdom of Heaven is like, it bears a striking resemblance to what I have read in many NDE descriptions.

NO PIERCING AT JESUS' SIDE

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays, so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing. The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross, and the Centurion could report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God. This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben

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There is also texts out there that convey that Jesus was NEVER crucified. That someone else in Jesus' place was crucified and that Jesus was laughing like a mad man at the whole scene. Wish I could recall in where this story was. <_<

SINcerely,

:devil:

Edit: Dr. D provided it already. :nw:

Muslims are responsible for that version. A few of them here in Israel have told me the same story.

Ben

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OK. Imagine you were born in 1300. Imagine how you'd feel if you found a scroll that mentioned a future invention. It said a device existed with 2 prongs on the end like a fork, that could be pushed into a wall with 2 holes in it, and with a press of a switch on the wall, the device would light up and sound would come out of it, voices and music from thin air.

How would you feel? Scared? Suspicious? Utter nonsense? Would you throw it in the fire in mockery and perhaps ignorance, or would you store it, and wait, even asking someone or sharing what you've found?

My point is, just because you are not alive at the time something happened, and it seems impossible or inconceivable, doesn't mean it didn't happen! Just because you hadn't read this before I wrote it, didn't mean you never would.

Well, that makes sense too.

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Flavius Josephus, a great Jewish Historian of the First Century says in his book "The Antiquities of the Jews" that only in the First Century, the Romans crucified thousands of Jews. Now, try to picture Romans soldiers spear-piercing thousands of crucifieds to check if they were indeed dead. This policy was never in the Roman agenda. It was probably plagiarized from Zechariah 12:10 by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels, when that quote in Zechariah doesn't even have anything to do with crucifixion.

Ben

None the less, even if Jesus did survive and did manage to get unwrapped and move the stone from the tomb, I doubt he would be able to walk or even crawl after such an ordeal. The loss of blood alone would be massive and fatal. If Jesus was dead, there would be no need to break the legs, hence the piercing. I would think it had happened before.

The whole point of the NT being written was to testify to the resurrection, something unheard of in the world. The Jews believed in the resurrection from the dead at the end of time, but not one by themselves. The apostles were surprised by what happened. When Jesus died, his movement was over just as it was for others who came before him. His rising from the dead changed all of that.

peace

Mark

Peace

mark

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