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Big Bad Voodoo

Lost Adriatic pool civilization?

36 posts in this topic

Hello my dear UMers!

I watched lecture with guy called Gary Biltcliffe and he raised interesting questions. Well Gary wrote a book called “Spirit of Portland” about Island Portland in UK. Gary also visited many megalithic sites and studided them. He has been in Peru, UK (ofcourse), Bolivia, Egypt, Greece, Italy and so on.

While he was in Italy he visted 12 Etruscan cities. Vulci, Veio, Tarquinia and so on. During his stay he made amazing conclusion. That before Roman and before Etruscan in Italy there were some other civilization. We know that in todays Italy many cultures flourished such as Ligurian, Venetic, Umbrian, Oscan,Italic, Illyrians, Greeks and son. Yet Gary claim that this ancient civilization is older then Etruscan. How he conclude that? Simply, by watching so called Etruscan ancient walls he noticed that they built with solid square blocks. In bottom of wall they put curved stone. Yet under those Etruscan walls he often found polygonal walls. Mayn sites he visited doesn’t match neither Roman or Etruscan style of building. He concluded that might be Pelasgians since there were legends that they establish this and that city. He mention as back up oh his theory George Dennis book “Etruscan tombs” where George said that Pigra and Saturnia were built by Pelasgians. But Gary doesn’t exclude that all pre-Etruscan walls were built by some unknown civilization.

Wall in Roselle which is polygonal was done as we are told by Romans. Yet same wall in Greece, Tirint wall is 3000 BC. Same style. We know that Romans didn’t built with polygonal stones.

Fort Cosa is as we are being told Roman fort yet it was done with polygonal stones different sizes like those in South America.If they were Pelasgians did they came before then in Greece, did they as Veneti came after fell of Troy. Pelasgians were on side of Troy according to Homer.

Gary stressed out that this civilization was in a sense advanced since they have knowledge about earthquakes. For example walls in Amelia are built on area wher earthquakes are often and with walls built in southa america those walls don’t crumble or break from earthquakes.In Cervtari we have Etruscan tombs with curved sotnes at bottom and sqaure blocks and we have polygonal tulums there. Oriental look. That’s amazing discovery in my opinion as Norba curved stones. In Norba ruins, we have carved the stones into curve,polygonal blocks-we only have similar in Peru. In Altari , 10 tones blocks set up not in bottom but on top or in middle. Why would they do this if that wasn’t easy for them?

Now Gary talked about famous Greek pyramid near Micenae. He mentioned that pyramid have vents. That’s interesting. But whats stuning is that pyramid was done from polygonal stones. Now there are theories that Pelasgians came in Arcadia today Peleponese. Just where we have pyramid.

Things become better. Thermoluminescence dating of stones on greek pyramid, which is as I understand that atomic level of stones changes when sun first time heat stone when have been cut from mountain or being shaped, dates pyramid 2710 BC.

Did Pelasgians built pyramids about same time as Egyptians? Did Pelasgians influenced Egyptians maybe? According to Homer they built on Crete. So Gary found out that there is small part of polygonal wall there.

In Greece ruins of city Ojnijada wehave 8 km of polygonal walls. In picture with Red thower we can see how Hellenistic blocks differs from previous wall making. Also in Ojnijada we have amphitheathere completly cut in stone.

My idea was could it be that Etruscan came from minor asia trough Greece and built pyramids in Greece as well as Ojnijada city. Especially if we know that recently Etruscan pyramid was discover.Ofcourse if we take that Etruscan built those polygonal amazing walls such as Amelia, Norba and polygonal tombs.

Anyway Gary connect one more thing. On island Portland in ground they fround Etruscan tombs. Now that’s little fringie even to me. Also iron bars which Etruscan used in trade. But Romans were in Brittain so maybe Etruscan were there in Roman army. Stayed, married and so on. Gary connect names. Umbria is place where Etruscan lived in Italy yet we have north Umbria in UK. Umbria-North Umbria.

On another hand we have Etruscans. Personally Etruscans or Rasenna as they call themselves are riddle for me. All their statues as famous Etruscan couple, mythology, their twelve cities-state, their monogamous relationships, art, non Indo-european language. I found Tinia ,their thunderer as Elijah, Thor, Zeus and slavic Perun. Godess Cel was mother of Giants. Again we have one more civilization who mention Giants. I think that Etruscan influenced Christhianity. Vanth looks like Angel to me and Charun like Devil. Why not? Im mean Jesus “turn another cheek” was Socrates and Budha invention. Not just that, in Christianity we have holy Trinity and in Etruscan we have Tinia,Menrva and Uni. Triumvirate. More and more I read about them they become more and more mysterious. Etruscan alphabet looks like runes to me. We no nothing about their language. The last person known to have been able to read Etruscan was the Roman emperor Claudius. While I was in Zagreb Archaeological museum I seen Liber Linteus, etruscan text with 230 lines which Egyptian mummy was warped in. They as many ancient people use Swastika symbol. Their neighbours Illyrians also used it. We find it in India in South America and so on. Almost all we know about them came from their Necropolis and Sarchophagi. They own Corsica in their hands between naval power Cannanites/Chartage. Who knows where would be they end if Syracuseans didn’t military won and what will we know about them if Guals didt sack Tuscany and Rome. We know that they influenced Rome a lot, architecture, mythology and so on. Chimera of Arezzo bronze statue which kindly hinting us that they realy can originate from asia minor Ionia since Chimera originate from Lycia, asia minor. Herodotus wrote that they originate from Lydia. Their religion is also mystery to us. For example we don’t know nothing about their God Satre. 8 century BC necropolis site Macchiabuia have 40 burials. Which is quite a lot. Adding to that Cerveteri, Tarquinia, Vulci and Vetulonia we realize how for Etruscan life after death was more important then this life.

If we look historians as I already mentioned Herodotus and later Roman accounts such as (from wiki)

Hellanicus of Lesbos, another Greek historian writing in the fifth century BC, mentioned a group of Pelasgians who arrived in Italy and there changed their name to Tyrrhenians.Virgil referred to the town of '. . . Cerveteri, built on an ancient rock where once the Lydians, a race distinguished in war, settled the hills of Tuscany.' And Seneca (who died in AD 65) stated that '. . . Asia claims the Etruscans as her own.' Tacitus (first to second centuries AD) accepted the story as told by Herodotus. Other tales also locate the Etruscans in Asia Minor, linking them with the Pelasgians; and refer to Tyrsenians or Tyrrhenians on the islands of Lemnos, Imbros and Lesbos, just off the Asian coast in the northern Aegean, and on Delos, the holy island in the centre of the Cyclades.

Anyway, I hope to get some feedback on Pelasgians-Etruscan mysteries.

Now I will upoload pictures and I hope you will connect pictures with my text.

Thanks for reading.

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Some interesting info.

Cladius wife was Etruscian and he wrote Lost history of Etruscian.

When 408 AD Visighots under Alaric sacked Rome Etruscian priest came and offer Romans that they can send lightning on Visigoths and destroy them. Pope agreed but priest were against it because they must done their rituals in public.

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Posted (edited)

Man, those pics are great !!

Now what is your proof the Etruscans were related to the Illyrians?

As far as is known now, they were genetically (?) and linguistically related to Anatolian people.

I think it was Herodotus who first made that connection, but I'm not sure.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Hello Abramelin!

Those pictures and all ideas were from Gary Biltcliffe. He was guest on one television show so he showed pics and tell his story.

His view goes like this, but I beg you to read a thread. Interesting conclusuions from Garry, some of mine sum, and I expand little.

Anyway, Garrys theory is that we have one lost Adriatic pool civilization before Etruscans which built on thier sites. Those civilization are in Garry view either Pelasgians or some unknown. He connects sites from Italy and Greece. He made very interesting conclusions. Also he doesnt specificly say this or that. He also points out connection with Etruscans and todays UK.

He done 10 minutes talk about Illyrians but he stressed out that he didnt do field work as in Italy and Greece but he will in future. About some Illyrians cities he claim that they didnt built them. Those cities were in fact temples of that lost civilization which Illyrians let them built there. However he point out that he like to skip Illyrians in his story because as he said he have enough evidence for claiming what he claims without them.

I will do Illyrians thread in future, trust me on this.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

For all that curved polygonal walls, flat polygonal walls, polygonal arch, oriental tombs we are being told that were either Roman or Etrsucan. But none of them built with polygonal stones. You can clearly evolution of construction ...first polygonal then Etrucan,Roman or Hellenistic. Neither Romans or Etruscan did megalithic cities.

And thanks. Pictures tells more then thousands words.

Edited by the L

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Great pictures L, thanks for sharing!

The question next arises, to what particular race is this peculiar masonry to be ascribed. No doubt when once introduced, the fashion might be adopted by other tribes than that which originated it,27 but the type, whose source alone we are considering, would still be proper to one race. Now at the risk of being thought to entertain old-fashioned opinions, I must confess that I can refer it to no other than p284the Pelasgi. Not that, with Sir W. Gell, I would cite the myth of Lycaon, son of Pelasgus, and founder of Lycosura, as proof that this masonry was of Pelasgic origin28 — I might even admit that "there is no conclusive evidence in any one instance of the Pelasgian origin of the monuments under consideration,"29 — yet the wide-spread existence of remains of this masonry through the countries of the ancient world, the equally wide diffusion of the Pelasgic race,30 and the remarkable correspondence of the lands it occupied or inhabited with those where these monuments most abound; to say nothing of the impossibility of ascribing them with a shadow of reason to any other particular people mentioned in history — afford satisfactory evidence to my mind of the Pelasgic origin of the polygonal masonry. And here it is not necessary to determine the much vexata quaestio, what and whence was that Pelasgic race, which was so widely diffused throughout the ancient world; it is enough to know that in almost every land which it is said to have occupied, we find remains of this description.31 In Thessaly, Epirus, and the Peloponnesus, p285the peculiar homes of this people, such monuments are most abundant; they are found also in the Isles of the Aegean Sea, and on the coast of Asia Minor, which were at some period occupied or colonised by the Pelasgi. In Italy also, those regions which abound most in such monuments were all once in possession of the Pelasgi, though it must be acknowledged on the other hand, that we have historic mention of that race in certain other districts — at the head of the Adriatic, and in Oenotria — where no such remains have been discovered;32 nor indeed do we find walls of this character in all the ancient cities of central Italy — even of Etruria — which are said to have had a Pelasgic origin.33 These discrepancies, whether real or apparent, whether occasioned by the character of the local rock,34 or by the entire destruction of the earliest p286monuments of the land, are but exceptions to the rule, and do not invalidate the evidence for the Pelasgic origin of this peculiar masonry.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/_Periods/Roman/Archaic/Etruscan/_Texts/DENETR*/47.html

More:

With respect to Cosa, there is no reason whatever for regarding its walls as of Roman construction. There is nothing which marks them as more recent than any other ancient fortifications in Italy of similar masonry. The resemblance of the gateways to those of Volterra, and the absence of the arch, point to a much earlier date than the establishment of the Roman colony, only two hundred and seventy-three years before Christ; but whether they were erected by the Pelasgi, or by the Etruscans copying the masonry of their predecessors, is open to doubt. As the walls of Pyrgi and Saturnia, known Pelasgic sites, were of the same polygonal construction; it is no unfair inference that these of Cosa, which has relation to the one by proximity, to the other by situation on the coast, are of a like origin. The high antiquity of Cosa is indeed attested p287by Virgil, when he represents it, with other very ancient towns of Etruria, sending assistance to Aeneas.35 Some, however, have inferred from Pliny's expression — Cossa Volcientium — that it was a mere colony of Vulci, and one of the latest of Etruscan cities;36 but Niebuhr with more probability considered that the original inhabitants of Cosa were not Etruscans, but an earlier race who had maintained their ground against that people.37 The connection indeed between Vulci or Volci, and Volsci, is obvious, and from the fact that at one time the Etruscans p288possessed the land of the Volsci, it would seem that this was not one of name merely,38 But the Volsci were of Opican or Oscan race, and what affinity existed between them and the Pelasgi is doubtful; whether an affinity of origin, or one arising merely from the occupation of the same territory at different epochs. Confusion of names and races on such grounds is common enough in the records of early Italy. As the Etruscans were frequently confounded with their predecessors, the Tyrrhenes, so the Volsci may have been with the Pelasgi.39 It is well known that walls precisely similar to these of Cosa abound in the territory of the Volsci, but whether erected by the Pelasgi, by the Volsci themselves, or by their Roman conquerors, is still matter of dispute; yet by none are they assigned to a later date than the reign of Tarquinius Superbus, two centuries and a half before the Roman colonization of Cosa, which was in the year 481.40 I repeat that there is no solid ground whatever for ascribing these polygonal walls of Cosa to so recent p289a period. With just as much propriety might the massive fortifications of Paestum, which was colonised in the same year, be referred to the Romans.41

Beyond the mention made by Virgil, which can only be received as evidence of her high antiquity, we have no record of Cosa in the days of Etruscan independence. She probably fell under the Roman yoke at the same time as Vulci — on or soon after the year 474 (B.C. 280).

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/_Periods/Roman/Archaic/Etruscan/_Texts/DENETR*/47.html

The Sabines and Opsci seem older than the Etruscans in Italy imo. They worshipped Saturn and Ops, in the Golden Age, they are ancient people in the area.

Ops is a true Great Mother.

Her husband was Saturn, the bountiful monarch of the Golden Age. Just as Saturn was identified with the Greek deity Cronus, Ops was identified with Rhea, Cronus' wife. In her statues and coins, Opis is figured sitting down, as Chthonian deities normally are, and generally holds a scepter or a corn spike as her main attributes. The Chthonian deities are the manifestations of the Great Goddess, such as Gaia or Ge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ops

The extravagant claims of Varro and Cicero that augury, divination by dreams and the worship of Minerva and Mars originated with the Sabines are disputable, as they were general Italic and Latin customs, as well as Etruscan, despite the fact that they were espoused by Numa Pompilius, second king of Rome and a Sabine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine

I think that Minerva and Mars are much older than Roman and probably were ancient Sabine Gods, hence Mars being the father of the Romans lends itself to him already being there.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Puzzler!

Good that you shown us George Dennis quotation since Garry and me in my thread mentioned him yet I didnt remember to search for what he has written.

About Gods- well I think Etruscan gods influence not just Roman Gods but Christianity as well.

Vanth looks like Angel and Charun like Devil imo. in Christianity we have holy Trinity and in Etruscan we have Tinia,Menrva and Uni. "Holy" Triumvirate. Jesus “turn another cheek” was Socrates and Budha invention...And gloryfing after life instead this life could be Etruscan...But then again Egyptian worshiped after life more then this life in a sense...

Didnt hear about Sabine before...Godess Cel was mother of Giants. Again we have one more civilization who mention Giants.....

Imo Tinia or Tin is like their thunderer as Thor, Elijah, Zeus and slavic Perun. If so then they worship Indo European God but having Non Indo European language....Or Perun and Thor isnt Indo-European Gods at all which would be ground breaking.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

So from where Pelasgi came from? Did they done Pyramid on their own or did they have been in Egypt or maybe they have same source?

Are Etruscans ancestors Pelasgians?

I guess Garry just expand Dennis idea and found evidence for his theory.

I think that Dennis is right when talk about polygonal masonary...but whether they were erected by the Pelasgi, or by the Etruscans copying the masonry of their predecessors, is open to doubt.

I picked this up too from Puzzler quote. Thats interesting.

Pliny's expression — Cossa Volcientium — that it was a mere colony of Vulci, and one of the latest of Etruscan cities;36 but Niebuhr with more probability considered that the original inhabitants of Cosa were not Etruscans, but an earlier race who had maintained their ground against that people.37 The connection indeed between Vulci or Volci, and Volsci, is obvious, and from the fact that at one time the Etruscans p288possessed the land of the Volsci, it would seem that this was not one of name merely,38 But the Volsci were of Opican or Oscan race, and what affinity existed between them and the Pelasgi is doubtful;

Beyond the mention made by Virgil, which can only be received as evidence of her high antiquity, we have no record of Cosa in the days of Etruscan independence. She probably fell under the Roman yoke at the same time as Vulci — on or soon after the year 474 (B.C. 280).

Edited by the L

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Hi the L.

Many things to write, I start with one of your last comments, otherwise I could forget it!

Didn't you really ever heard of Sabines?

The "raptio Sabinorum" is one of the most famous myths of early Rome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women

From Eutropius: "Romulus, dei Martis filius, urbem Romam condidit, postea finitimarum gentium multitudinem in civitatem recepit et ad soleminium ludorum spectaculum omens vicinas Urbi nationes invitavit. Tomani iuvenes multas finitimorum puellas audaci vi rapuerunt. Sabinarum virginum impudens raptio acrium bellorum fuit causa [...]"

"Romulus, son of Mars, built Rome, after that he received in the city the moltitude of neighbouring people and invited the nearby nations for the solemn show of the games. Romans abducted many of the neighbours young women with bold force. The cheekful abduction of sabine virgins was the cause of violent wars".

(forgive my Latin).

Getting more in topic, I don't understand one thing: are you connecting ancient Italian sites with South America?

I could say you're right, if we assume that ancient Etruscans and ancient Peruvians were refugees from the sinking Atlantis, that established themself west and east of the island. Otherwise, I find it difficult to relate them.

I agree with you that Etruscans are a very mysterious culture, I've always been fascinated by them too.

When I was in elementary schools, I even made up a theory involving Etruscans being refugees from Atlantis (hey, this could be linked the the theory above), while Sumerians were refugees from Mu. Don't ask me why, I can't remember :lol:

Anyway, even if there was someone else there before them (although there're some hypothesis saying that they're autochthon), I wouldn't trouble Pelasgians or other non confirmed cultures.

I add that, if we want to dream a bit, not far from Tuscany (where Etruscans evolved and lived, not Umbria as you wrote) there's Sardinia, with its extremely mysterious Nuragic culture, that could be the real origin of your structures. Who knows, maybe the original culture covered all the central Italy, including Sardinia, and then disappeared for some reason, leaving behind these gigantic ruins, used by who came after as basement for their buildings. I stop here, otherwise we could go too off topic (and I don't want to talk about Sardinia's ruins, they deserve at least another thread)!

Answering your first topic:

We know that in todays Italy many cultures flourished such as Ligurian, Venetic, Umbrian, Oscan,Italic, Illyrians, Greeks and son. Yet Gary claim that this ancient civilization is older then Etruscan

True, and there's nothing secret or innovative about it. We even gave it a name: Proto Villanovan culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Villanovan_culture).

It's a term used to define some cultural aspects that spread across Italy in the late Bronze Age.

Through the Proto Villanovan culture Italian peninsula unified culturally (but not politically), from North to South.

Settlements were usually on high hills and fortified and could span from 50-100 people, up to 500-1.000 for the biggest ones.

Many of the Etruscan settlements were built above the Proto Villanovans.

The Proto Villanovans had many commercial exchanges with other cultures, both by sea and by ground. The "middle-tirrenic" Italy (basicly, today Tuscany and Latium) was part of a "commercial ring" including Aegean people, Southern France, Sardinia, Sicilly, etc.

In the Iron Age started a regoinalization process, that gave birth to Latial culture in Latium, the Este culture in North-eastern Italy, and, what interests us more, the Villanovan culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan).

The most evident connection between these cultures (maybe it should be more correct to call them facies) is the cremation, that has been practiced for centuries, and also by our beloved Etruscans.

The Villanovan culture (again, maybe facies should be better) is believed by many to be the Proto-Etruscans.

Well, I took it from afar, but I think that explains better the situation.

If you read the wiki page I linked, you can see that the Swastika element you quoted was characteristic of the Villanovan culture.

If they were Pelasgians did they came before then in Greece, did they as Veneti came after fell of Troy

Nope. It's quite probable that Veneti formed in the third millennium b.C. in what's today Germany, as part of a vast Indoeuropean continuum located in central-eastern Europe.

They came in Italy in the second half of the second millennium b.C.

Gary connect names. Umbria is place where Etruscan lived in Italy yet we have north Umbria in UK. Umbria-North Umbria.

As I wrote above, Tuscany is where Etruscans originated; sure, they lived in Umbria too, but also in Latium and Emilia-Romagna.

So, everything is possible, but more probably the term derives from the Latin "umbra", meaning "shadow", so it would be "the shadowy place", usually referred to places with a thick vegetation/forest.

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Hi the L.

You must be Croatian :) If so, could you please tell me what documentary are the pics you posted from??

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Hi the L.

You must be Croatian :) If so, could you please tell me what documentary are the pics you posted from??

Yes Im. I notice that you are too. It was from Mišak Na rubu znanosti with Garry Biltcliffe as guest.

You were probably surprised to see HRT 1 on UM.

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Hi Parsec,

Thanks on your post.

From day when you say that you are Italian and that you love history I knew it was time for thread like this.

I dont connect Peru and Italy but shown similarities in building tech. I read a lot about Nurgaic culture and their towers and Giant stories from WW1.

Im also aware of Villanovan culture however historians dont connect those ruins with them. They connect them with Rome. Which is quite apsurd.

What ever we named it , lets stick for now with Villanovan if you want, we have similar walls and pyramid in Greece. So did they strech to Greece?

If Villanovan was proto Etruscan culture then what about all their stories about origin and non IE language of etruscan?

Swastika is used in India, South america and even Illyrians used it. Many civilizations and cultures. I wonder whats origin and how civilization spontaneously developed same ideas?!

We have historical records that Veneti originate from Troy.

Elder Pliny’s Naturalis historia is like encyclopedia of many different Antics knowledge.In his III., IV., V. i VI books we can find geographic discription of known world. Especially inside Roman borders.In his III. Book Pliny X. region (=Venetia et Histria) he said:

„In mediterraneo regionis decimae coloniae Cremona, Brixia Cenomanorum agro, Venetorum autem Ateste et oppida Acelum, Patavium, Opitergium, Velunum, Vicetia. Mantua Tuscorum trans Padum sola reliqua. Venetos Troiana stirpe ortos auctor est Cato,Cenomanos iuxta Massiliam habitasse in Volcis. Feltrini et Tridentini et Beruenses Raetica oppida, Raetorum et Euganeorum Verona, Iulienses Carnorum. Dein quos scrupulosius dicere non attineat, Alutrenses, Asseriates, Flamonienses Vanienses et alii cognomine Curici, Foroiulienses cognomine Transpadani, Foretani, Nedinates,Quarqueni, Tarvisani, Togienses, Varvari.“

Venetos is Troy origin according to Cato and Cenomans lived before with Volcs near Massiliam (todays Marseilles.).

Latin "umbra", meaning "shadow", so it would be "the shadowy place", usually referred to places with a thick vegetation/forest.

Thanks on info. Interesting. I would agree.

What do you say about North Umbria in UK and Etruscan so called sarchophagi in Portland island?

Edited by the L

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The -L- , great thread !!

I have nothing to add, and you have sources at hand no one here can read, unless they speak your language.

Well, maybe Helen of Annoy (Croat) can add something?

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Hi The L,

I'm pleased to read your reply, and if I will be able to contribute even a little bit, I'll be even more pleased.

You know that your "simple" post could lead to a 800 pages book reply, right? :lol:

1. Peru and Italy.

I agree that there are similarities, the obvious question is "why?".

It could be based on a common ancestral culture, that spread all around the world.

I think that's quite on the line of Graham Hancock's theory. And I'm not saying it's wrong.

Or, it could be based more on "technique", rather than on "culture". If you notice, all the "impeached" layers of the walls you posted are built with the technique of the "dry wall". Probably they didn't know the mortar and the backed bricks technique, and/or this suited them more. Anyway, following this line, it's possible that they used huge rocks because they suit much better for this technique, instead of small stones. If you want to build a high, stable and durable wall with this technique, that's the way to do it. Probably it's not the most energy saving way, but surely it's the most durable.

It could explain also the Greek walls.

So, different cultures in different zones of the world in different times could come up with the same technical answer to a common problem.

Why the polygonal shape? For stability.

Well, it's still a theory.

2. Villanovan, Proto Villanovan and Italian Archaeology.

That's a huge point, I'll try to summarize it. Let's start saying that historians and archaeologists, as you know, are two very different kinds of people. Problem is (well, it's not exactly a problem), here in Italy Archaeology has always been very connected (some would say subdued) to History. For instance, here Archaeology at University is under the faculty of Letters, like Hystory, Philosophy and of course Letters. It means that for generations Italian archaeologists learned to think first like an historian, and then like a scientist. Even today, for some saying that an archaeologist is a scientist is nonsense.

This explains why in many cases we can see what to us looks like "absurd" statements, like those saying that the whole walls in the pictures you posted are Roman.

That's because they based their conclusions more on the writings, rather than on the fieldwork.

Until the '80s-'90, that's how it worked. Lukily now things are different. Honestly now I don't have time to translate italian sites, but if you know Italian (as I think you do), you can try looking for the cities you quoted, and you'll find that many of the findings aren't described as Roman, rather than Villanovan or Proto Villanovan.

I hope I've been intelligible, I'm not sure I managed to explain this point.

3. Villanovans and non Indoeuropean Etruscan language.

If I could answer to this question, probably at this time I'd be travelling around the world very busy with my many conferences ;)

What I can write is that, if it's true that Etruscans came from Villanovans, who came from Proto Villanovans, we have only physical findings about these cultures (that's the reason why it should be more correct to call them facies and not cultures). We don't know anything about their cultural aspects, we don't even know their name. Nothing points out that they were Indoeuropeans, and if it's true that they're related with the Urnified Culture, they could have raised in central Europe, and still not being Indoeuropean.

4. Swastika.

As you wrote, swastika is a symbol we find in many cultures around the world and basically with the same meaning.

Here again, we could hypothize a common ancestral culture, that used this symbol and so did the others which derived from it.

Or it could be an archetype in Humankind collective unconscious, so, when someone thinks about the idea represented by the swastika, this symbol comes in mind.

5. Veneti.

I wouldn't believe Pliny, or any ancient historian, too much, for the simple fact that they described what they saw with what they had. For them it was normal linking historical facts with myths (that to them in some cases were the same), like for instance the origin of Veneti. Pliny says they came from Troy after their defeat, but we don't even know if there has ever been such a war and where the real Troy was (what Schliemann found is not Homer's Troy, and, to tell the truth, he found, if I'm not wrong, circa seven different stratified cities). He based on Cato, as you quoted, but Cato in his Origines wrote also about Aeneas and he was the first who officially connected, historically, him with Romolus, the founder of Rome.

If we listen to Strabo, they're Celts, because he heard of a people living on the northern shores of today France with the same name (Ceasar talks about them in his De Bello Gallico).

They're with no doubt extremely precious as a root for informations and they deserve all the respect we can give, but base a scientific theory only on their books is another story.

6. Portland island.

Honestly I've never heard of it before you quoted it.

Do you have any link?

Cheers

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Hi Parsec!

I like reading peoples posts so I dont mind if your posts are long. So please just write.

You know that your "simple" post could lead to a 800 pages book reply, right? :lol:

Im not familiar with Graham Hancock's theory. I research often on my own so if someone have a interesting theory and if I stumble upon him I read his work nut Mr.Graham is unknown to me. Sorry.

And yes dry walls are used all over Med. and in South America. In Dalmatia, people built very long walls to use them as borders between lands. Some say thats Illyrian custom.

I have plenty pictures of those Suhozid which means Drywall.

You mean that they use gravity as their benefactor? But we seen in Greece pyramid and wall with smaller stones as well...Also so called curved Etruscan tombs have small polygonal stones.

In my country we consider Historians and Archaeologists scientists. And thats what they are, but I understand what you trying to tell. People here only say: bah who cares about ruins...

It can be that when someone thinks about the idea represented by the swastika, this symbol comes in mind of others. That idea travels.

This is one of my earlier post about human hive mind:

Society can be different collectives. Like family, work organisations, nations, ethnic group. By some experts every of those societies have capabilities to think,decide and act as one.

Psychologist Gardner Murphy think that our mind can survive death as state which is merged in collective consciousness. This remind me of idea on possiblity that we are universe rediscover itself. That universe create us and in everyone of is little part of universe and we discover universe trough our own expireinces and in the end merged into collective hive mind, universe. Unity. I know how this idea might look awfull to some mizanthropes.

French Emile Durkheim wrote several interesting books. I never read one of them but I heard he was great writer. He wrote in one of his book how primitive societies and traditional societies have had common consciousness. They create solidarity based on mutual likeness. In his book Suicide Emile wrote that suicide have social cause not individual cause. I will quote wiki because my English isnt that good to put it better:

This relates to the concept of collective consciousness as if there is a lack of integration or solidarity in society then suicide rates will be higher...It has also developed as a way of describing how an entire community comes together to share similar values. This has also been termed "hive mind", "group mind" and "social mind".

In my country when someone made suicide people often say: „ Well, he didnt have anyone.“ „Others kill him.“ „Rumors killed poor guy.“

Averroes , realy interesting philosopher, spoke how our intellect is collective, like todays Internet. That if you grasp for example cat same as I, we both grasp same idea. Its my imagination that I made things personal. I can imagine Hello Kitty cat and you for example Garfield. But idea of cat its universal.

Experts also research how national sports defeats have impacts if any on value of stocks. They watched over thousands football matches and conclude that stocks dropped every time after National football team was eliminated from World cup. Names of those researchers are Edmans, Norli and Garcia.

So you dont link any people in ancient italy with Troy or minor asia? What do you think about Messapic language as Illyrian language? Do you agree that Messapians were Illyrians?

I dont have link but I know that Garry wrote it a lot in his book Spirits of Portland. I also have two pictures of those sarcophagi.

Hey what do you say about cuvred polygonal wall at Norba. For that they need quite a lot time or...

Edited by the L

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Hi The L

Im not familiar with Graham Hancock's theory. I research often on my own so if someone have a interesting theory and if I stumble upon him I read his work nut Mr.Graham is unknown to me. Sorry.

Well, basically he theorizes that once upon a time there was an ancient, unknown and advanced civilization, that spread all around the world and left behind the ruins we see today.

I'm not saying that's not plausible or possible, I'd love if it'd be so, but sometimes he goes too far in his speculations.

If you search here on UM for him, you'll find plenty of infos (and detractors :lol: )

And yes dry walls are used all over Med. and in South America. In Dalmatia, people built very long walls to use them as borders between lands. Some say thats Illyrian custom.

I have plenty pictures of those Suhozid which means Drywall.

You mean that they use gravity as their benefactor? But we seen in Greece pyramid and wall with smaller stones as well...Also so called curved Etruscan tombs have small polygonal stones.

Dry walls is the very first form of building structures. It's not used exclusively with huge stones; of course it's used also with small ones. It depends on the purpose: if you want to build a wall 10 meters high with only stones and no mortar and that must resist and defend your city and family, would you prefer to use small or big ones?

Even today here there're walls build with this technique and small stones, but, as you wrote, they serve as borders between lands, they're quite decorative. We don't have to forget that things usually have a purpose and that, especially in old times, people didn't do things "just because" (like many times we do today), but they had a specific reason.

It can be that when someone thinks about the idea represented by the swastika, this symbol comes in mind of others. That idea travels.

About Swastika, I was thinking more on Carl Jung's subconscious archetypes.

Well, maybe I'm a bit too extreme and semplicistic, but to me both Jung and Averroes ideas derive from Plato and his Hyperuranium (or World of Ideas).

So you dont link any people in ancient italy with Troy or minor asia?

I've never wrote such a thing.

We have to separate Troy from Minor Asia. For the moment, I don't link anything historycal with Troy, as far as we can't be sure if it really existed and where it was located. Do you know that there's a theory stating that Iliad and Odissey were located in the Baltic Sea and thus they tell about the period when the old Greeks lived there, before moving south (and I have to say that it's quite covincing)?

I don't exclude that some civilization came from Minor Asia to Italy.

I'm only saying that, as far as research goes on, it seems that Veneti came from central Europe and not from Minor Asia.

What do you think about Messapic language as Illyrian language? Do you agree that Messapians were Illyrians?

As far as I know Messapians were Illyrians, and viceversa.

Hey what do you say about cuvred polygonal wall at Norba. For that they need quite a lot time or...

An alien help! :lol:

Frankly I don't know what to say at the moment, I didn't study it throughly. Surely it's fascinating and raises many questions.

I don't discard the forgotten advanced civilization theory.

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Hi Parsec,

First of all Im in rush but I will say that Jung is kind of very interesting person. When he and Freud met first time they talked for 13 hours.

Jung was molested as kid so he was healer who was healed. I know that he talked about indentical psyche in all individuals. And how collective unconciosness is different because personal...I forgot expirence? views? something like that.

If that Graham claims then I will search about him on internet and read it.

Could you develop that about Plato s Hive mind idea? And ofcourse Jung view...

Here is some Jung quotes I love and quote often:

All the works of man have their origin in creative fantasy. What right have we then to depreciate imagination.

Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol or morphine or idealism.

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.

Follow that will and that way which experience confirms to be your own.

***I have treated many hundreds of patients. Among those in the second half of life - that is to say, over 35 - there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life.

In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.

Man's task is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious.

Masses are always breeding grounds of psychic epidemics.

***Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.

The debt we owe to the play of imagination is incalculable.

The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed.

***Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.

Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.

***We should not pretend to understand the world only by the intellect. The judgement of the intellect is only part of the truth.

The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it.

P.S. asap I will upload something about Troy to you and Garry s Etruscan sarcophagi in UK.

Edited by the L

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The -L- , great thread !!

I have nothing to add, and you have sources at hand no one here can read, unless they speak your language.

Well, maybe Helen of Annoy (Croat) can add something?

Maybe we could start a thread in Modern Mysteries Invasion of Croats on UM

If anything I can translate to you...or if I could do anything for you ,please just ask. Im willing to help.

Thanks on support I appreciated it.

Btw I like your new avatar. Its kind a optimistic then previous ones.

Edited by the L

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Yes Im. I notice that you are too. It was from Mišak Na rubu znanosti with Garry Biltcliffe as guest.

You were probably surprised to see HRT 1 on UM.

Haha yes I was ..

I love the show .. Should be on more often ;)

Edited by Ninhursag

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@Abramelin: thank you for the support :tu:

@The L: Hi, I'm in a rush too, so I'll be very quick.

In Plato's words "The hyperuranium is the world beyond heaven that has ever existed, in which the ideas are perfect and unchangeable, approachable only by the intellect, intangible and incorruptible by earthly bodies. The connection among the ideas, thus the structure itself of the hyperuranium, is determined by the laws of dialectics. They have the power to distinguish or divide, gather or unite."

Basically, his idea is that we live in a material world, that's only the reflection of the real world, the World of Ideas. We come from there, so we already know all the ideas, because we've already seen them. When think about an object or a principle, we're remembering the real Idea, corrupted by the fact that we live in this material world. Well, I'm making more complicated than it is :lol:

If I tell you "love", you instantly think about something, even if, for example, you've never been in love and you don't know it. That's because, in truth, you've already seen it, in the World of Ideas.

If I tell you "banana", in your mind a banana appears. That's because in that moment you make a connection, through your intellect, with the real Idea of banana.

His idea is very well depicted in the famous "allegory of the cave" (that's at the base of the Matrix movie idea, by the way), one of my favourite ones.

I link you the wiki page, it will be more clear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

I must add that in english it's translated more often "world" or "theory" of Forms, rather than Ideas: to me it's misleading, because the Idea is very different from the Form. The first is the real thing, while the latter is its representation.

But probably my English level is not enough to understand these slightnesses

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"The hyperuranium is the world beyond heaven that has ever existed, in which the ideas are perfect and unchangeable, approachable only by the intellect, intangible and incorruptible by earthly bodies. The connection among the ideas, thus the structure itself of the hyperuranium, is determined by the laws of dialectics. They have the power to distinguish or divide, gather or unite."

Basically, his idea is that we live in a material world, that's only the reflection of the real world, the World of Ideas. We come from there, so we already know all the ideas, because we've already seen them. When think about an object or a principle, we're remembering the real Idea, corrupted by the fact that we live in this material world. Well, I'm making more complicated than it is :lol:

If I tell you "love", you instantly think about something, even if, for example, you've never been in love and you don't know it. That's because, in truth, you've already seen it, in the World of Ideas.

If I tell you "banana", in your mind a banana appears. That's because in that moment you make a connection, through your intellect, with the real Idea of banana.

His idea is very well depicted in the famous "allegory of the cave" (that's at the base of the Matrix movie idea, by the way), one of my favourite ones.

I link you the wiki page, it will be more clear: http://en.wikipedia....ory_of_the_cave

I will use swastika as example of Plato, Averoess, Jung idea.

As we already said many civilization used Swastika. I wonder is there any connection between polygonal building tech and swastika. We have polygonal walls in Peru, Italy, Japan and we have swastika in those placeses. Ofcourse there are swastika in cultures that dont have polygonal walls.

However I will point out that is amazing number of cultures and civilizations used Swastika.

Swastika according to wiki means:

"su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". Or another translation can be made: "swa" is "higher self", "asti" meaning "being", and "ka" as a suffix, so the translation can be interpreted as "being with higher self".

I wonder could it be that all people on earth connected with higherself and then reach for Swastika symbol? If so where does it came from?

Maybe Jung was right. Its amazing number of people around the world that use same symbol. Oldest dates 10 000 BC in Ukraine on figurine of mammoth ivory. Illyrians seen it as sun. Zoroastrians seen it as Sun. Many civilization used symbol:

In Iran we have neckless with three swastikas found in Marlik, Gilan province Iran, dates 1000 BC.Vinča cultures,Greeks, Etruscan, Illyrian, South American tribes, in Indus valley civilization, Caucasus area, neolithic China, Slavic, Celts, in India during Gupta empire , Tibet, Japan (manji name for it ), Medieval Armenia and Bulgaria…in religions such as Jainism, Budhism, Hinduism…we have it in Cyprus…City of Troy…Cannanites used it…Romans,…In Mycenae…Hopi indians, Aztecs…on Malta, on Bali…Minoans used it...List goes on.

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Haha yes I was ..

I love the show .. Should be on more often ;)

Every monday about 23:00 on HRT1. :tu:

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Hi The L,

here we are with another chapter of our story :lol:

I admit that for the swastika I've checked wiki too (and I didn't think they suggested the Jung's way like I proposed :lol: )

I'll try to be short (but exhaustive).

First, you can't connect swastika and Japanese culture: as you and Abe posted, they sure built buildings with huge polygonal blocks, but they did it from the fifteenth century on. Further, the swastika they use is derived from Buddhism, so they use it because they "imported" it with that philosophy.

To me, at the moment there are two main hypothesis for this symbol:

1) as you write, there was an ancient unknown common civilization, that spread around the world and left behind the polygonal walls and the use of the swastika. So, the symbol comes directly from that civilization.

2) We can detect it in the early indo-european culture (or maybe in the Ukranian culture of the ivory swastika, it's the same for this model): through commercial and cultural contacts with other cultures, it spread. So, thanks to Hinduism and Buddhism, it spread in all the East Asia and thanks to the other IE branch that came in Europe, it has been passed to Etruscans and other non IE cultures. Further through the silky way it reached Middle East and Europe (again).

Whatever its origins are, we have to admit that's a powerful symbol, it catches the human mind.

Maybe its origins are simpler that we think: an unknown caveman invented (or reached for a moment the World of Ideas) and showed it to his friends, who liked it, and then they did the same with their friends. Everybody gave it their own meaning (sun, seasons, time, a type of boomerang) and the symbol spread everywhere. It could be.

What leaves me perplexed is that

1) we find it also in some North American cultures, that officially never came in contact with the rest of the world in the last 12.000 years;

2) we don't find any trace of it in two of the three most ancient civilizations of the entire wolrd: the Egyptian and the Sumeric. If there was this unknown, well developed, world spread civilization, how is it possible that they didn't come in touch with it?

Maybe we should open a specific thread on the swastika (or maybe there's already one?)?

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Parsec sorry for late response!

No need for Swastika thread. It fits here since we discuss about field of ideas from where people milk ideas. Fine example of it natives in America and swastika.

Yes it is interesting that we didnt find swastika in Mesopotamia.

Egypt is kind of isolated due Sinai desert. Egyptians ruled Africa and only one way to came into they land. They guared it for 1500 years before first conquerers appears.

We find other similarites in America and Euroasia and africa.

L stones. T cuts. Tubes on stones, Mummies. Pyramids...

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