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markdohle

Yes! (God is faithful)

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Yes!

(God is faithful)

The myth of the spiritual life is that we will one day reach perfection. If this is not believed consciously, then it is often operating on an unconscious level. For after all did not Jesus say: “Be you perfect as your Father is perfect”? So willpower (the will-to-power), can become the central operative in this seeking of becoming better and then moving on to faultlessness. Control, watchfulness, becomes the catch word, and well they should, but in the end there can be only disappointment for many and perhaps all. For the desire to become better will invite struggle; bringing to light our actual lack of freedom which we perhaps failed to see in the past, but will soon become apparent from the very beginning of ones movement to deeper conversion.

As long as there is ignorance of ones state, then struggle is often missing. At least on a moral level that implies responsibility for ones actions and the affect it has on others. Which leads to not having the luxury of placing blame and exonerating oneself when challenged by those around us; in others words we learn to listen and to put aside our resistance. Something which can take years to actually learn and put into practice, without having some kind of ego shattering response; normally called a hissy fit. We find out that we are truly naked and discover it difficult to dress ourselves in the garments of virtue. For humility after all is not about being simply submissive, but about being in touch with the truth about ourselves and not being afraid to admit it when it is brought to our attention. This is not weakness but a specific type of courage that is often misunderstood and maligned.

Love of God and seeking to become more compassionate towards others, does not mean that sin is absent, and even some pretty heavy ones that could have roots so deep that they may take a lifetime to release. They are a true thorn in the side and can cause some deep inner confrontation with both self hatred and despair. These are necessary components to the spiritual life and each pilgrim will meet this differently. It is in this struggle that growth comes, this paradox of seeking to become more loving and God centered and at the same time dealing with inner demons that for many give no rest. Humility is the fruit of this purgatorial state, since the mirror of self knowledge is constantly being placed in front of us and the suffering will only decrease when it is embraced without rancor.

I suppose after years of being on the path…….. Slowly for some, more rapidly for others, that through the ups and downs, the darkness and the light, the moving back and forth on the course, there is one constant and that is the faithfulness of God. The insight comes that it is grace that always brings us back; heals us and allows the light to once more to become apparent. From this trust slowly comes to the fore. Though it has to be consciously brought to mind, since interior habits have a life of their own and will continue to seek to torment and hinder. So our suffering and failings only help to bring us deeper into trust and the constant “yes” of God. It is we who at times dance away, twirl back, and then tap dance off again. It is the love of God that is the rock that always stays in place. Our true foundation, that allows us too slowly overcome self hatred and contempt, to snail forward to the point when we can actually love our neighbor as ourselves. For how can we love ourselves unless we have at least some self knowledge? Love of self without that, is merely self conceit and leads to contempt for ‘our weaker brothers’; when in fact they are most often closer to the truth than the shallowly virtuous. Suffering brings depth because it throws us on ourselves and takes away our complacency. Well it is true for me, for there are perhaps those, the many, who don’t have to learn that way and if that is true I am very happy that they have such a smooth path. Mine however is rocky, full of falls and very slow in the climbing. Yet if I don’t fall how can I rise? If I don’t know my wounds, how can I ask for healing? If I am unaware of self destructive behaviors, how can I ask for forgiveness? No, sad to say, for I wish it were otherwise, suffering seems to be a necessary part of our spiritual evolution, or again mine.

Also the doubt and the unanswered questions force us to think deeper and to make conscious choices about how and what we believe. Not to do so can lead to become rigid and fearful in how responses are made when challenged by others. Again each is unique in how this is done. All paths are equal, just as long as we strive to seek truth and live it, no matter how often we fail. It is the getting up that is the trick and also the hidden grace offered; for God is always “yes”.

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Complicated, all these paths and years of searching. My Gods require nothing from me, well perhaps the occassional sacrifice. And as for morality, well, I would be worried if I, or anybody, needed the help of some god to be moral. Needing this god is admiting that you are inherently immoral and can only be moral with the help of this god. I believe we are all born inherently moral and, except for damaged people, do not need any god to tell us to be moral. This bible viewpoint implies very strongly that all the many generations that lived before this book was concocted, were immoral, and that those with a different view today are also immoral and need help...

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Complicated, all these paths and years of searching. My Gods require nothing from me, well perhaps the occassional sacrifice. And as for morality, well, I would be worried if I, or anybody, needed the help of some god to be moral. Needing this god is admiting that you are inherently immoral and can only be moral with the help of this god. I believe we are all born inherently moral and, except for damaged people, do not need any god to tell us to be moral. This bible viewpoint implies very strongly that all the many generations that lived before this book was concocted, were immoral, and that those with a different view today are also immoral and need help...

I think we are all for the part immoral and selfish. Though we also seek the good. However we more easily tend towards chaos and disorder as is shown by the state of our world, our societies and our history. Grace is God's love, it fills what our hearts most yearn for and heals the soul. Without God, we seek other gods; 'greed' and the 'will to power', perhaps being the most seductive and destructive. I believe that to say I am a sinner is based on truth and it therefor sets me free, though the the way rough in moving towards that; conversion is difficult at times,impossible without grace. It is OK if you don't agree ;-), the world is filled with different ways and paths, I have learned to be a peace with that reality. But for me, The Lord Jesus is my savior, not only for me but for all. It is about relationship with love and being ever more filled with love, in the end that is what it is all about. The reward of relationship with God, in loving others, is simply to love ever more deeply, a deep endless ocean that we dive into eternally if we wish....if not, then we stay on the beach for eternity.

Thank you for you comment.

peace

mark

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Posted (edited)

I think we are all for the part immoral and selfish. Though we also seek the good. However we more easily tend towards chaos and disorder as is shown by the state of our world, our societies and our history. Grace is God's love, it fills what our hearts most yearn for and heals the soul. Without God, we seek other gods; 'greed' and the 'will to power', perhaps being the most seductive and destructive. I believe that to say I am a sinner is based on truth and it therefor sets me free, though the the way rough in moving towards that; conversion is difficult at times,impossible without grace. It is OK if you don't agree ;-), the world is filled with different ways and paths, I have learned to be a peace with that reality. But for me, The Lord Jesus is my savior, not only for me but for all. It is about relationship with love and being ever more filled with love, in the end that is what it is all about. The reward of relationship with God, in loving others, is simply to love ever more deeply, a deep endless ocean that we dive into eternally if we wish....if not, then we stay on the beach for eternity.

Thank you for you comment.

peace

mark

We need Chaos and Law, there must be a balance in the multiverse. Some are drawn only to Law, which by itself is cold and sterile. For myself a little bit of Chaos is necessary. What is important is not to do harm to others or the fabric of the multiverse. The problems come with different ideas on what constitutes harm. To some not praying 5 times a day causes harm, to others not believing in their particular god causes harm. Parts of your religion say that some normal human activity is harmful, yet commonsense says that this view is itself harmful. There will always be a clash here. For instance, is it really good to be a monk living in simple conditions and even perhaps not speaking. Yet many would say this is "godly". And is there any harm in getting drunk with Thor in Valhalla? I know which I would prefer.

Maintenance of Maat is important, not being a harmful person assists this. I mean no insult when I say that your path to Jesus is only part of the way. There is that which is beyond and behind all gods. His living image is in my avatar. This not clear? :D

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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We need Chaos and Law, there must be a balance in the multiverse. Some are drawn only to Law, which by itself is cold and sterile. For myself a little bit of Chaos is necessary. What is important is not to do harm to others or the fabric of the multiverse. The problems come with different ideas on what constitutes harm. To some not praying 5 times a day causes harm, to others not believing in their particular god causes harm. Parts of your religion say that some normal human activity is harmful, yet commonsense says that this view is itself harmful. There will always be a clash here. For instance, is it really good to be a monk living in simple conditions and even perhaps not speaking. Yet many would say this is "godly". And is there any harm in getting drunk with Thor in Valhalla? I know which I would prefer.

Maintenance of Maat is important, not being a harmful person assists this. I mean no insult when I say that your path to Jesus is only part of the way. There is that which is beyond and behind all gods. His living image is in my avatar. This not clear? :D

What are the Chaoses that don't harm people or the universes?

I have heard this argument before and my assumption that Chaos, when practiced in harmony, or for the growth of humanity would perhaps be to support people oppressed, to fight against the system that controls them in large or minor scales. I can understand that people all have their own unique path and that "Jesus" is not the way for them. But some, with the understanding of righteousness, and in a lot of cases God, choose darkness and destruction, and although they 'preach' chaos as something beneficial they are actually committing harm and using that as an excuse to it being ok.

This is what I have seen at least. So I do wonder, when I hear people speak this way: What are these Chaoses?

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We need Chaos and Law, there must be a balance in the multiverse. Some are drawn only to Law, which by itself is cold and sterile. For myself a little bit of Chaos is necessary. What is important is not to do harm to others or the fabric of the multiverse. The problems come with different ideas on what constitutes harm. To some not praying 5 times a day causes harm, to others not believing in their particular god causes harm. Parts of your religion say that some normal human activity is harmful, yet commonsense says that this view is itself harmful. There will always be a clash here. For instance, is it really good to be a monk living in simple conditions and even perhaps not speaking. Yet many would say this is "godly". And is there any harm in getting drunk with Thor in Valhalla? I know which I would prefer.

Maintenance of Maat is important, not being a harmful person assists this. I mean no insult when I say that your path to Jesus is only part of the way. There is that which is beyond and behind all gods. His living image is in my avatar. This not clear? :D

Using others, abusing them, hating them harming is evil. To love, truly, would do away with abuse and people would not be objects to move around. Self destructive behavior is sinful, immoral because it is bad for all involved. We also use "sinful behavior" to escape from the pain of life, therefore creating more suffering and multiple problems to deal with....hence the state of the world. The new life that we are called to by Jesus Christ is a life without fear, without shame, but that comes only after we admit that we need grace, healing and help.

I will look up "Maat" so I can understand you better. Language is a help and a barrier at the same time ;-).

Peace

Mark

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Posted (edited)

What are the Chaoses that don't harm people or the universes?

I have heard this argument before and my assumption that Chaos, when practiced in harmony, or for the growth of humanity would perhaps be to support people oppressed, to fight against the system that controls them in large or minor scales. I can understand that people all have their own unique path and that "Jesus" is not the way for them. But some, with the understanding of righteousness, and in a lot of cases God, choose darkness and destruction, and although they 'preach' chaos as something beneficial they are actually committing harm and using that as an excuse to it being ok.

This is what I have seen at least. So I do wonder, when I hear people speak this way: What are these Chaoses?

Chaos is that from which emerged Ra on the blue lotus of Nefertem.

I reject any concept of Satan or Hell or sin. Chaos is not an evil force, it is simply that which is formless and primieval. At one end of a spectrum we have the aesthetic monk living on lentils and water, praying all day, yet having being more like a robot than a fully formed individual. He is like a perfect marble statue, yet somehow lifeless. At the other end we have a disolute serial killer, caring nothing for anybody except himself. Both are not normal, not fully human, and both would kill you. The serial killer because that is what he does, the monk because, if he has the ear of power, and over the years they have, will whisper to the temporal power that certain people are "bad" and must be liquidated. Extreme Law and extreme Chaos are bad for us. Going too far in either direction is dangerous. We all, usually have some chaos in us. It is the urge to drive faster than we should, the urge to eat just one more chocolate, the urge to party, even the urge to climb mountains and adventure. We cannot be all fun all the time and we cannot be sour prudes and censors. There must be a universal balance. This is Maat, this is also the duality of Ra-Horakhty/Khonsu etc. (yes,yes, debatable by Egytpologists :D ). So you see, Law is seriousness, which taken to extreme is death, and Chaos is recklesness, which also in it's extreme leads to death. The correct path is down the middle, but being mortal we sometimes stray to one side or the other. Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier? a sour withered prune or a party animal? are you with Law or Chaos? I think most of us are a bit of both.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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Chaos is that from which emerged Ra on the blue lotus of Nefertem.

I reject any concept of Satan or Hell or sin. Chaos is not an evil force, it is simply that which is formless and primieval. At one end of a spectrum we have the aesthetic monk living on lentils and water, praying all day, yet having being more like a robot than a fully formed individual. He is like a perfect marble statue, yet somehow lifeless. At the other end we have a disolute serial killer, caring nothing for anybody except himself. Both are not normal, not fully human, and both would kill you. The serial killer because that is what he does, the monk because, if he has the ear of power, and over the years they have, will whisper to the temporal power that certain people are "bad" and must be liquidated. Extreme Law and extreme Chaos are bad for us. Going too far in either direction is dangerous. We all, usually have some chaos in us. It is the urge to drive faster than we should, the urge to eat just one more chocolate, the urge to party, even the urge to climb mountains and adventure. We cannot be all fun all the time and we cannot be sour prudes and censors. There must be a universal balance. This is Maat, this is also the duality of Ra-Horakhty/Khonsu etc. (yes,yes, debatable by Egytpologists :D ). So you see, Law is seriousness, which taken to extreme is death, and Chaos is recklesness, which also in it's extreme leads to death. The correct path is down the middle, but being mortal we sometimes stray to one side or the other. Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier? a sour withered prune or a party animal? are you with Law or Chaos? I think most of us are a bit of both.

Yes we are a bit of both, the monk and the serial killer as well. Archetypal images are either black or white, good or evil, so even though people carry them, like doctor and policeman, they are all human and not just 'that'. I know some monks, they are just human, no matter the archetype. Evil is not chaos, chaos can be creative, evil is just destructive. The Catholic church has had 2000 years of experience with the demonic, so I would not rule out that reality. Evil consumes and is always empty, nothing good comes from evil, no chaos. Evil empires want total uniformity and control over their subjects, freedom and those societies that believe in that are the ones that have chaos.

peace

mark

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Posted (edited)

Chaos is that from which emerged Ra on the blue lotus of Nefertem.

I reject any concept of Satan or Hell or sin. Chaos is not an evil force, it is simply that which is formless and primieval. At one end of a spectrum we have the aesthetic monk living on lentils and water, praying all day, yet having being more like a robot than a fully formed individual. He is like a perfect marble statue, yet somehow lifeless. At the other end we have a disolute serial killer, caring nothing for anybody except himself. Both are not normal, not fully human, and both would kill you. The serial killer because that is what he does, the monk because, if he has the ear of power, and over the years they have, will whisper to the temporal power that certain people are "bad" and must be liquidated. Extreme Law and extreme Chaos are bad for us. Going too far in either direction is dangerous. We all, usually have some chaos in us. It is the urge to drive faster than we should, the urge to eat just one more chocolate, the urge to party, even the urge to climb mountains and adventure. We cannot be all fun all the time and we cannot be sour prudes and censors. There must be a universal balance. This is Maat, this is also the duality of Ra-Horakhty/Khonsu etc. (yes,yes, debatable by Egytpologists :D ). So you see, Law is seriousness, which taken to extreme is death, and Chaos is recklesness, which also in it's extreme leads to death. The correct path is down the middle, but being mortal we sometimes stray to one side or the other. Are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier? a sour withered prune or a party animal? are you with Law or Chaos? I think most of us are a bit of both.

I believe that there is an outright level of 'sin' that is to the moral extent of not being acceptable as you as a human being allows it. The concept of embracing chaos, although we see that chaos exists, still does not make sense to me. I see we have a different understanding because we studied different forms. But I believe that choas is the problems that need to be fixed. People want to blame their behavior, is what I see: Oh I believe in Choas so its ok for me to cheat on my wife, its ok to lie, to hurt people emotionally, as long as its not physically. etc... and whatever else act is 'immoral'.

I do not argue that we are moral creatures instinctively - I agree with you there.

When you say absolute law has no flavor, this is not an adequate response, in my opinion the the question I asked. What type of Chaos is permissible, on the 'moral' standard that each of us supposedly have?

Edited by SpiritWriter

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Yes we are a bit of both, the monk and the serial killer as well. Archetypal images are either black or white, good or evil, so even though people carry them, like doctor and policeman, they are all human and not just 'that'. I know some monks, they are just human, no matter the archetype. Evil is not chaos, chaos can be creative, evil is just destructive. The Catholic church has had 2000 years of experience with the demonic, so I would not rule out that reality. Evil consumes and is always empty, nothing good comes from evil, no chaos. Evil empires want total uniformity and control over their subjects, freedom and those societies that believe in that are the ones that have chaos.

peace

mark

And the purpose of "The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith". Is this not a tool to enforce uniformity and control over the subjects of the Pope. I think the 2,000 years of the Church having experience of the demonic is actually 2,000 years of supressing the old religions. Hmm, and killing many tens of thousands of "witches". Yet that is another topic.

In regard to the first two paragraphs of your opening statement, it seems your religion perhaps needs more than ten commandments, that adherents can exercise better "Control and watchfulness". Ancient Egyptians had 42, though they called them "negative confessions". So perhaps while borrowing the concept of monotheism and stealing the imagery of Isis and Horus, tsk tsk :yes: you should have taken more in order too better achieve the "spiritual life". There is nothing wrong in what you have written, all is self evident except for your rather strange god. I think all you want already existed two thousand years ago, yet you destroyed everything. Been a long time rebuilding.... been a long time sleeping, waiting. This world destroys itself, the abrahamic religions fight within themselves and with each other. The atheists shout rude words from the sidelines, and slowly move into the fight. Chaos will ensue, there will be a fracture in the world, and from the chaos..........................

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When you say absolute law has no flavor, this is not an adequate response, in my opinion the the question I asked. What type of Chaos is permissible, on the 'moral' standard that each of us supposedly have?

That you do no harm to others

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That you do no harm to others

That is very good. I just don't see how not doing harm to others would be considered Choas then...

Is this term any occurance agains the Mosiac Law? Which Law? The current Law of the town?

There are many things that hurt people, if we don't address our relationships with them. If you are ok with every relationship you have, and you are not harming anyone, or the effect of any of your actions is not harming anyone (as in making decisions from them from the court, employer, any after-effect of your direct action, even down the line) - then to me this is not Choas..

I do apologize for so many questions. I think I just like to know. That's why I like this website - it seems so diverse in understanding.

One more question:

Chaos, what Law does this not adhere to?

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I know this is a bit off topic..but isn't there a hymn called - God is faithful..and the words go a little like - Yes he is faithful, our god is faithful? Sigh.. to think I was once in a choir and I cannot recall the hymns ...

PS I cheated to get into the school choir...I mimed my friends voice while the teacher walked and listened.. It got me out of class for a while lol

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I know this is a bit off topic..but isn't there a hymn called - God is faithful..and the words go a little like - Yes he is faithful, our god is faithful? Sigh.. to think I was once in a choir and I cannot recall the hymns ...

PS I cheated to get into the school choir...I mimed my friends voice while the teacher walked and listened.. It got me out of class for a while lol

No surprised :innocent:

Peace

mark

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And the purpose of "The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith". Is this not a tool to enforce uniformity and control over the subjects of the Pope. I think the 2,000 years of the Church having experience of the demonic is actually 2,000 years of supressing the old religions. Hmm, and killing many tens of thousands of "witches". Yet that is another topic.

In regard to the first two paragraphs of your opening statement, it seems your religion perhaps needs more than ten commandments, that adherents can exercise better "Control and watchfulness". Ancient Egyptians had 42, though they called them "negative confessions". So perhaps while borrowing the concept of monotheism and stealing the imagery of Isis and Horus, tsk tsk :yes: you should have taken more in order too better achieve the "spiritual life". There is nothing wrong in what you have written, all is self evident except for your rather strange god. I think all you want already existed two thousand years ago, yet you destroyed everything. Been a long time rebuilding.... been a long time sleeping, waiting. This world destroys itself, the abrahamic religions fight within themselves and with each other. The atheists shout rude words from the sidelines, and slowly move into the fight. Chaos will ensue, there will be a fracture in the world, and from the chaos..........................

For a group to surive there has to be some boundary, saying beyond this line you become something else, or belong to another group. Besides we tend to fragment, people seldom agree, so something needs to be put in place to implement some conformity. That does not in any way dictate life, each person is responsible for the depth of his understanding of his faith or he can be spoon fed. Cultrual faith is ok as long as the society is not fragmented like ours. Today, we all need to understand where we come from and what we believe.

Your take on history is not correct. Rome fell from within, it was Christian Monastaries that kept knowledge going for centuries after Rome ceased to be a world power. Towns grew up around Monastaries, farming was developed by monks. Hospitals were created as well as higher centers of learning. There was also great art. That is not saying that there were no serious problems...there were on all levels, but that is the way things are in this world, should not be a surprise.

Also the Jews and Christian did not borrow from pagan myths. Most scholars of today reject that kind of thinking, though it is still popular in our world today.

We all follow something, a group, a philosophy or ideology, each has boundaries, these do not limit life but actually allow for depth to be developed. The Christian faith has a long history, a good one, a checkered one as well, there is great wisdom within it and the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, if not always followed, which does not surprise me....I know what is within me, I know what I am capable of, I know I am a sinner and in need of grace, which is the Love of Jesus Christ freely given. That goes for all I believe and for all institutions.

peace

mark

Edited by markdohle

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For a group to surive there has to be some boundary, saying beyond this line you become something else, or belong to another group. Besides we tend to fragment, people seldom agree, so something needs to be put in place to implement some conformity. That does not in any way dictate life, each person is responsible for the depth of his understanding of his faith or he can be spoon fed. Cultrual faith is ok as long as the society is not fragmented like ours. Today, we all need to understand where we come from and what we believe.

Your take on history is not correct. Rome fell from within, it was Christian Monastaries that kept knowledge going for centuries after Rome ceased to be a world power. Towns grew up around Monastaries, farming was developed by monks. Hospitals were created as well as higher centers of learning. There was also great art. That is not saying that there were no serious problems...there were on all levels, but that is the way things are in this world, should not be a surprise.

Also the Jews and Christian did not borrow from pagan myths. Most scholars of today reject that kind of thinking, though it is still popular in our world today.

We all follow something, a group, a philosophy or ideology, each has boundaries, these do not limit life but actually allow for depth to be developed. The Christian faith has a long history, a good one, a checkered one as well, there is great wisdom within it and the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, if not always followed, which does not surprise me....I know what is within me, I know what I am capable of, I know I am a sinner and in need of grace, which is the Love of Jesus Christ freely given. That goes for all I believe and for all institutions.

peace

mark

I did not mention the fall Rome in my post, you have added this as smoke and mirrors. Clearly I was talking about the old religions, that were most certainly destroyed.

You say "Besides we tend to fragment, people seldom agree, so something needs to be put in place to implement some conformity" This is a defence of the Inquisition? and to what degreee of control can happen before an empire becomes "evil"? Perhaps your amount of control is okay for you to be happy with, yet I would say you certainly had far too much control in the past, and still exert unwanted control in areas such as birth control, or shocking iressponsible lack of in case of Catholics.

Christianity is a heresy of Judaism. Judaism, a newcomer, has clearly borrowed heavily from it's neighbours. I will not bog down this thread with various details about this, except to draw attention to the Hymn of Aten, monotheism itself, the iconography of Isis and Horus, the cult of Antinuous and Mithraism. This is clearly not the thread to discuss these things, though you have made a statement, so I have replied.

I almost forgot. You also state "farming was developed by monks". How? what advances did they make? farming was already advanced before Christianity. There was already crop rotation and allowing fields to lie fallow for soil regeneration. Ancient Celts had a crude device that was similar to a combine harvester, with tines at wheat head hight to cut them off and let them drop into a box. And before Christianity there were hospitals, schools, universities, theatres, gymnasia, swimming baths, reasonably hygenic public toilets, public and free access to constantly running fresh water, fire brigades, police, law, libraries,and of course great art, most of which was deliberately destroyed by Christian prudes and boneheaded iconoclasts. Hmm, I'm sounding like "The Life of Brian" :D

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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I did not mention the fall Rome in my post, you have added this as smoke and mirrors. Clearly I was talking about the old religions, that were most certainly destroyed.

You say "Besides we tend to fragment, people seldom agree, so something needs to be put in place to implement some conformity" This is a defence of the Inquisition? and to what degreee of control can happen before an empire becomes "evil"? Perhaps your amount of control is okay for you to be happy with, yet I would say you certainly had far too much control in the past, and still exert unwanted control in areas such as birth control, or shocking iressponsible lack of in case of Catholics.

Christianity is a heresy of Judaism. Judaism, a newcomer, has clearly borrowed heavily from it's neighbours. I will not bog down this thread with various details about this, except to draw attention to the Hymn of Aten, monotheism itself, the iconography of Isis and Horus, the cult of Antinuous and Mithraism. This is clearly not the thread to discuss these things, though you have made a statement, so I have replied.

I almost forgot. You also state "farming was developed by monks". How? what advances did they make? farming was already advanced before Christianity. There was already crop rotation and allowing fields to lie fallow for soil regeneration. Ancient Celts had a crude device that was similar to a combine harvester, with tines at wheat head hight to cut them off and let them drop into a box. And before Christianity there were hospitals, schools, universities, theatres, gymnasia, swimming baths, reasonably hygenic public toilets, public and free access to constantly running fresh water, fire brigades, police, law, libraries,and of course great art, most of which was deliberately destroyed by Christian prudes and boneheaded iconoclasts. Hmm, I'm sounding like "The Life of Brian"

There are always different ways of interpreting history my friend. There is no such thing as objectivity when dealing with the past...and yes our personal beliefs will dictate how we look at history etc. I am of course like that. I am a Christian, so yes I may not agree with you on your take on things, and I guess we can both back up what we believe by authors who write from both sides of the fence so to speak. So let us agree to disagree ;-). I wish you well on your journey in seeking truth.

C.Lewis, Chesterton, Peter Kreeft and other authors who are Christian are for me are enough. I have studied some pagan religions and I doubt we are responsible for their demise I am sure they fought among themselves as well. Christianity while being persecuted by the Roman authorities continued to grow, so in the 4th century it was made the state religion as a ploy to bring some order to a chaotic situation....I am not sure that was a good thing to happen, but it did and nothing can change that. When a religion becomes too powerful politically, it attracts the wrong kind of leaders, when poor and little, perhaps the spiritual leaders are more inclined to be different and not into power.

Again yes, any group, be it pagan, Christian or some philosophical group need guidelines and if someone goes over that they are not part of the group. If the old pagan relilgions were that open (which I doubt), well perhaps that is why they died out, or one reason for them doing so. As for your studies on the Christian faith, like I have said, there are authors that refute your claims.......If you wish to look upon my faith as a heresy of the Jewish religion, well that is ok, people think a lot worse about my faith. :yes:

Peace

Mark

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There are always different ways of interpreting history my friend. There is no such thing as objectivity when dealing with the past...and yes our personal beliefs will dictate how we look at history etc. I am of course like that. I am a Christian, so yes I may not agree with you on your take on things, and I guess we can both back up what we believe by authors who write from both sides of the fence so to speak. So let us agree to disagree ;-). I wish you well on your journey in seeking truth.

C.Lewis, Chesterton, Peter Kreeft and other authors who are Christian are for me are enough. I have studied some pagan religions and I doubt we are responsible for their demise I am sure they fought among themselves as well. Christianity while being persecuted by the Roman authorities continued to grow, so in the 4th century it was made the state religion as a ploy to bring some order to a chaotic situation....I am not sure that was a good thing to happen, but it did and nothing can change that. When a religion becomes too powerful politically, it attracts the wrong kind of leaders, when poor and little, perhaps the spiritual leaders are more inclined to be different and not into power.

Again yes, any group, be it pagan, Christian or some philosophical group need guidelines and if someone goes over that they are not part of the group. If the old pagan relilgions were that open (which I doubt), well perhaps that is why they died out, or one reason for them doing so. As for your studies on the Christian faith, like I have said, there are authors that refute your claims.......If you wish to look upon my faith as a heresy of the Jewish religion, well that is ok, people think a lot worse about my faith. :yes:

Peace

Mark

Christianity was directly responsible for the destruction of all the old religions through all of the middle East and Europe in it's entirety. How can you say that you doubt your religion was responsible for this. Who ordered that ALL pagan temples will close? Mickey Mouse perhaps. What religion launched religious crusades against Baltic people to force them, at point of sword to become Christian. Who killed an estimated 40,000 Saxons in order to force the survivors to be Christians. Who, in Norway in year 1,000, took as hostage all the relatives of the pagan Vikings living in Iceland, and threatened them with death if the pagans did not convert. There is much more, and you know this. Could any person in any European country from approximately year 1,000 to comparatively recent times ever say they were not a Christian and not be killed as a witch or heretic? Your religion wears the mask of saint, yet carries behind it's back a blood drenched sword. Religious wars, at least as far as I know in middle East and Europe, did not exist until advent of Christianty, and Islam. Certainly there were many wars, though about conquest, or even hurt feelings. Yet look at Christianity's record. The crusades, Palestine and Baltic. Various wars in Northern Europe during 16th Century, Spanish Armarda for instance and 80 years war in Netherlands and the appalling massacre of women and children at Antwerp. Then the horror of the Thirty Years war, then The Great Northern War. And inbetween all manner of horrors in Czech lands, Switzerland, various Germanic states. The barbaric bloodshed at Munster. The various massacres that took place in France against Cathars and Protestants, and on and on and on, and ALL in the name of Christ. This can not be said against the old religions, generally they lived and let live. Rant over :-*

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You have issues and you believe in a dead religon. Belief in god's is even more absurd than a belief in God. In anycase I went to youtube and found this(

), though it is only a video so I don't expect it to change anything. Also in pagan religion.... did you not kill infants on a regular basis to your gods? Molock comes to mind. Also one tribal god fighting another on the battle field, with those who lose taken into slavery. No ancient pagns were not gentle saints, but warlike, cruel and we are better off without them. I think you need to look at your own so called history, which seems to be even worse than Christianities, which is very bad indeed. Modern pagan myths are safe and cause no harm, your crap is a waste of time.

doug

Edited by dougeaton

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You have issues and you believe in a dead religon. Belief in god's is even more absurd than a belief in God. In anycase I went to youtube and found this([media=]

[/media]), though it is only a video so I don't expect it to change anything. Also in pagan religion.... did you not kill infants on a regular basis to your gods? Molock comes to mind. Also one tribal god fighting another on the battle field, with those who lose taken into slavery. No ancient pagns were not gentle saints, but warlike, cruel and we are better off without them. I think you need to look at your own so called history, which seems to be even worse than Christianities, which is very bad indeed. Modern pagan myths are safe and cause no harm, your crap is a waste of time.

doug

Who are you to insult me or anybody. I do not have "issues", and in my previous post were a list of verifiable historical events. You write as if all pagans are one religion and all are responsible for the wrong doing of others, ridiculous. And precisely what is my "crap"? what is my religion? What is your real purpose here? you sound like typical troll that has polluted youtube with foul mouthed rants. And for "agnostic" you certainly like defending Christianity. You give yourself away, I saw all this nonsense many times over the years. You lag behind and I certainly don't slow down for you. Byeee

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri

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