When Is It Excessive Force Anymore?

[+and-then]

They try, but as many are as overweight as the goons they tried to arrest the result is kind of comic

Nothing funny about a dead young man who had an impeccable life record up to this error. I am NOT a bleeding heart lefty. If that can be said of ANYONE at UM, it's myself. But I do not see justification in this. I see lack of training in a campus rent a cop.

[+and-then]

yeah, you're right.. but from the cops perspective, he's thinking "what ever happened to petty crime?"

everything's been ramped up 50 notches

it only took 3-4 posts for somebody to say "being naked doesn't mean less dangerous" ...yeah.. usually the opposite (pcp, whatever) they empty full clips into those people, they don't go down.. the cop is just a human and scared... he shoots first and thinks second..

I get that for the average person, Unit, but shouldn't we expect more from a person who has been given a right to carry a badge and a gun? I'm not talking about making police officers risk their lives unnecessarily. I'm saying that cops should be TRAINED in how to use non lethal force in a campus setting. For me this makes all the difference. This is a university campus. I've stood in the building where this happened. This school is a good school in a quiet town of about 300K people. My guess is that the school will be very successfully sued, the police department will be thoroughly revamped and the policing budget will reflect the seriousness of what just happened. But none of that will ever bring this guy home to his family again. I have a 17 year old at home. Soon she'll be off the university and while I cannot even imagine her making such a mistake, I would hope that if she did she would be given some chance of survival when her biggest crime was acting violently erratic.

[Dredimus]

Well, and then, twist the scenario and imagine your daughter is being attacked.

Everyone is preaching about the situation from the comfort of their chairs and behind the safety of their computer monitors while they have more than likely never been in a situation such as this. Until you have been face to face with this type of situation you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do. And to imply that cops shouldn't be human and should have no fear is beyond ridiculous. If you people think that being an officer is that easy.. by all means join the academy and get to work... we could use a few super cops backing us up.

The world isn't as pretty and clear cut as some of you would like to believe. I hope you never have to see the harsh reality of the nature of true crime and drug use or what it takes to fight it. Have a wonderful night curled up in your warm beds while some one else is out protecting those things you take for granted while you dismiss that person's sacrifices.

[+and-then]

Well, and then, twist the scenario and imagine your daughter is being attacked.

Everyone is preaching about the situation from the comfort of their chairs and behind the safety of their computer monitors while they have more than likely never been in a situation such as this. Until you have been face to face with this type of situation you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do. And to imply that cops shouldn't be human and should have no fear is beyond ridiculous. If you people think that being an officer is that easy.. by all means join the academy and get to work... we could use a few super cops backing us up.

The world isn't as pretty and clear cut as some of you would like to believe. I hope you never have to see the harsh reality of the nature of true crime and drug use or what it takes to fight it. Have a wonderful night curled up in your warm beds while some one else is out protecting those things you take for granted while you dismiss that person's sacrifices.

Come on man..... enough with the martyr stuff. I respect cops AND I know it's one of the most difficult professions there is. But it IS a profession - or should be. Nothing I have said denigrates cops. It questions the system of training being used in THIS instance.

[Merc14]

That was a pretty lame post!

Do you have any more stories that have absolutely nothing to do with this particular case?

So leaving a psycho wandering around, who is crazy enough to attack an armed man, is fine by you? What exactly does my scenario have nothing to do with? Your suggestion for LEO's is to leave psychopaths, high on drugs, running wild among the populace until,you can gather enough people to safely contain them and to hell with the innocents who happen to wander into the area? Oh, so a college campus doesn't have that many pedestrians wandering around?

Come on son. let me now what you think is right? Let me know what is so off the wall about my post given the history of the new drugs and the danger to innocents wandering around. You better have more than that lame slap.

[Merc14]

Nothing funny about a dead young man who had an impeccable life record up to this error. I am NOT a bleeding heart lefty. If that can be said of ANYONE at UM, it's myself. But I do not see justification in this. I see lack of training in a campus rent a cop.

What do you do with someone completely out of control, high on drugs that make them impervious to pain and innocent people are wandering in the area? No easy answers, unfortunately, and if put a saint on salt he will attack you and try to eat you. What do you suggest? Afe you cool with wandering into the area while the LEOS gather enough force to subdue the monster? OK, you are brave and willing to die, how about your loved one, should they die in the name of some gut who was fine until he ingested a drug that made him a monster incarnate?

[+and-then]

What do you do with someone completely out of control, high on drugs that make them impervious to pain and innocent people are wandering in the area? No easy answers, unfortunately, and if put a saint on salt he will attack you and try to eat you. What do you suggest? Afe you cool with wandering into the area while the LEOS gather enough force to subdue the monster? OK, you are brave and willing to die, how about your loved one, should they die in the name of some gut who was fine until he ingested a drug that made him a monster incarnate?

Lots of assumptions being made here. The report said nothing about any attempt at non lethal what so ever. If he was on bath salts then maybe it couldn't be avoided but NO ONE EVEN TRIED to restrain him in any other way. Can't you see where such behavior leads?

[+and-then]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/09/police-say-alabama-student-took-lsd-before-was-shot-by-officer/?test=latestnews

5"7,135...... naked and unarmed.

[MstrMsn]

cops should be TRAINED in how to use non lethal force in a campus setting

I'm going to focus on this part....

First, it has already been said that many police departments are going away from pepper spray and tasers, for obvious reasons (such as, pepper spray doesn't always work - I know first hand, and how many people have died as a result of being tased??).

Second, say his department was one of them? What are his less than lethal options now? Judo/jujitsu? Ok, you as a cop, go in for a wrist lock or arm bar or try to do a take down, and he gets your gun. Now what? Also, it was shown that he was on LSD, so good luck trying to subdue him yourself.

Third, in most situations where LEOs have to shoot someone, it's always some civilian that keeps saying "poor training" or something to that effect. You don't know that it is. All that is known (mainly from your comments) is that you believe there to be a lack of proper training. Get the kind of training cops get, and put yourself into that very situation, and let's see how you respond.

[Merc14]

Lots of assumptions being made here. The report said nothing about any attempt at non lethal what so ever. If he was on bath salts then maybe it couldn't be avoided but NO ONE EVEN TRIED to restrain him in any other way. Can't you see where such behavior leads?

It is easy to judge when reading about an event on your computer. There are a lot of facts missing in the report and when faced with this type of situation there may be no good answer. Leave the wildman alone and an innocent get hurts, try and physically subdue him and his chemically enhanced body, impervious to pain and strength amplified injures or kills you (remember, pepper spray and tasers are ineffectual against people on PCP or Bath Salts) or shoot the guy and suffer the wrath of people like you.

[lightly]

http://vitals.nbcnew...medomain=usnews

^This NBC news version of the story doesn't definitely state that the kid was 'ON' anything.

His mother said this : "He was wearing no clothes and he was obviously not in his right mind," Bonnie Collar said.

A university spokesman declined to say (LOL) Saturday whether Collar was under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

" a naked student at the University of South Alabama was fatally shot in the chest by a campus security guard"

........... Campus security guards, as is the case at our local community college, are usually students pursuing a law enforcement degree... it's possible he was not a real "COP" yet.

[Rafterman]

Oh, i missed the bit in the article where is said he was eating another human. As far as i can tell he was threatening a police officer by "charging" naked at him. I am pretty sure that shouldn't be a crime punishable by death, but i don't live in that society. Each to their own.

I was simply countering the previous point that being nude somehow implies that you aren't dangerous. Try to keep up in the future.

[Pauly Dangerously]

........... Campus security guards, as is the case at our local community college, are usually students pursuing a law enforcement degree... it's possible he was not a real "COP" yet.

Wrong. Do you really think they are just giving untrained kids guns and telling them to go serve the public trust? C'mon, let's use a little critical thinking here.

[Rafterman]

http://vitals.nbcnew...medomain=usnews

^This NBC news version of the story doesn't definitely state that the kid was 'ON' anything.

His mother said this : "He was wearing no clothes and he was obviously not in his right mind," Bonnie Collar said.

A university spokesman declined to say (LOL) Saturday whether Collar was under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

" a naked student at the University of South Alabama was fatally shot in the chest by a campus security guard"

........... Campus security guards, as is the case at our local community college, are usually students pursuing a law enforcement degree... it's possible he was not a real "COP" yet.

That's couldn't be further from the truth - I seriously doubt the guards are you local community college are armed.

In every case I'm familiar with, an armed university police officer is a duly sworned police officer - no different than a county sheriff, local LEO, etc. And certainly if they are armed, they have completed the same firearms training as any other LEO in that jurisdiction. Here in New York State, state university officers are essentially state police with limited jurisdiction.

From the USA website:

All sworn officers have completed the Minimum Standards of Peace Officers for the State of Alabama (A.P.O.S.T. certification). University Police have full arrest powers granted by the State of Alabama (Title 16-22-1 and 16-22-2). The department offers community services including patrol functions, investigations, event security, and training.

[Stellar]

Why is that? This coming from your numerous years employed as an LEO conducting felony arrests on violent suspects?

This is coming from my numerous years of experience as a soldier who has to obey something called Rules of Engagement.

A police officer's job is to serve and protect the people. It's to maintain life, not take it away unnecessarily. A police officer should be capable of handling an unarmed and naked individual without the need to kill them. A police officer should have enough training with his less than lethal weapons to not have to use lethal force against an unarmed person.

[Stellar]

I think you are missing the plot here.... This guy came to the campus Police department banging on windows... the officer came out... He charged the officer several times and the officer retreated, with weapon drawn, several times... the suspect was warned.. told to stop... he was non compliant and beligerant. Drugs or not, this person was a threat to life or limb. Some one who was not a threat, would have stopped when seeing a police officer telling him to STOP while he had his weapon drawn...

Anyone can be a threat, unarmed, with their bare hands. A police officer should be capable of dealing with this unarmed threat without resorting to the use of lethal force.

[Pauly Dangerously]

This is coming from my numerous years of experience as a soldier who has to obey something called Rules of Engagement.

A police officer's job is to serve and protect the people. It's to maintain life, not take it away unnecessarily. A police officer should be capable of handling an unarmed and naked individual without the need to kill them. A police officer should have enough training with his less than lethal weapons to not have to use lethal force against an unarmed person.

So no then. A combat soldier is as close to a police officer as is a garbage man. A peace officer is in no way, shape or form akin to a forward theater operator, and you know that. The ROE do not apply in this circumstance.

I understand your outrage at an unarmed American catching a bullet in the chest from a public servant, but this situation is not combat. It's a drugged up former wrestler who had already committed three felony assaults in the act of committing a fourth. It's terrible, but could have been much worse.

[Dredimus]

This is coming from my numerous years of experience as a soldier who has to obey something called Rules of Engagement.

A police officer's job is to serve and protect the people. It's to maintain life, not take it away unnecessarily. A police officer should be capable of handling an unarmed and naked individual without the need to kill them. A police officer should have enough training with his less than lethal weapons to not have to use lethal force against an unarmed person.

So.. you bring up RoE... but forget what you are taught in combat training from day one of BRM... If you are working a gate in Iraq of Afghanistan and you tell some one to stop.. and they keep moving... they suddenly go from target to threat, no matter what they are wearing/driving or if they are walking... and you utilitze what ever force needed to STOP that threat....

It kills me how people are demonizing the cop for doing his job yet leaving out the fact that this whacked out guy on LSD attacked two couples, tried to bite and eat them.. and then attacked a Police Officer... blows my mind.

Oh... and as far as The Arms training goes.. doesnt matter if the guy was a cop or a security officer, they have the same training in the State of Alabama as far as fire arms go... the training requirements are put down and strictly enforced by State Security Regulatory Board. As an officer or guard you have to maintain your training annually and be down range often. I currently hold a license and certification from the regulatory board in Alabama.

[glorybebe]

I agree. None of us were there in the officer's shoes. It was a split desicion that he had to make. And IMO, the innocent citizens not only have a need for protection, but a right to be protected. If a guy is going to be out of control enough to attack an armed officer, then in the safety of the public he needs to be stopped by any means necessary. I am so tired of perps being the underdogs. They did something illegal. We deserve to be protected from them.

[+and-then]

Local public opinion in a SOLIDLY CONSERVATIVE community is strongly in support of the young man's family on this. A former Lieutenant Governor of the State of Alabama is acting as attorney for the family. I find it ironic that I'm seem to be on the wrong side on this. In nearly 100% of such cases in past I would have immediately and blindly taken the officer's words as gospel. Not so sure I will again. This campus police officer responded to a naked, aggressive student with the physique of a young woman by going outdoors without his pepper spray or his baton which are required equipment according to USA police rules. He had time and space to back away from the threat and had even called for back up before exiting the building. Some of this is caught on CCTV but the actual shooting is not. I think the shooting was wrong. I think the cop was poorly trained and unprofessional. I think this will be proven upon investigation and many rules will be reviewed and training will be enhanced. The officer in question made a mistake due to poor training. I don't think he should be fired or vilified in public. I think the university should step up and take responsibility. The officer should be retrained and while that goes on he should not be allowed to carry a weapon or go on patrol.

[Stellar]

So no then. A combat soldier is as close to a police officer as is a garbage man.

Right... there's no similarities whatsoever. Thats why we sometimes train with the police

The ROE do not apply in this circumstance.

Clearly ROEs and minimal force does not apply in this circumstance. Obviously a police officer can just shoot an unarmed man. No big deal.

So.. you bring up RoE... but forget what you are taught in combat training from day one of BRM... If you are working a gate in Iraq of Afghanistan and you tell some one to stop.. and they keep moving... they suddenly go from target to threat, no matter what they are wearing/driving or if they are walking... and you utilitze what ever force needed to STOP that threat....

Please spare me the lecture on what I "forgot". I have forgotten none of that. The reason we shoot (a warning shot first) and then shoot to kill when someone doesnt stop is BECAUSE we don't know what they are wearing. Suicide vests are a threat overseas. Can you claim this naked man was wearing a bomb vest?

Furthermore, theres a reason we learn hand to hand combat in the military. There are many occasions when an individual is uncooperative and yet we have to restrain them --- NOT shoot and kill them.

It kills me how people are demonizing the cop for doing his job yet leaving out the fact that this whacked out guy on LSD attacked two couples, tried to bite and eat them.. and then attacked a Police Officer... blows my mind.

I'm not blaming the police officer for shooting. I'm blaming the police department/academy/whoever trains them for turning out police officers that feel that they can't handle an unarmed individual running at them without the need to resort to deadly force.

I guess whoever resists arrest should also be shot, from here on in, right? Clearly they're not listening to the police officer, and thus pose a threat.

[lightly]

That's couldn't be further from the truth - I seriously doubt the guards are you local community college are armed.

In every case I'm familiar with, an armed university police officer is a duly sworned police officer - no different than a county sheriff, local LEO, etc. And certainly if they are armed, they have completed the same firearms training as any other LEO in that jurisdiction. Here in New York State, state university officers are essentially state police with limited jurisdiction.

From the USA website:

All sworn officers have completed the Minimum Standards of Peace Officers for the State of Alabama (A.P.O.S.T. certification). University Police have full arrest powers granted by the State of Alabama (Title 16-22-1 and 16-22-2). The department offers community services including patrol functions, investigations, event security, and training.

I didn't say the campus security guys (here) were armed. In fact i know they are not. I said they were law enforcement students•

but.. ok, since it is Alabama UNIVERSITY ... i suppose it was stupid of me to wonder if the 'cop' may not have been a real 'cop'.

when is it excessive force? whenever it's more than needed. Like when we see some guy on the ground unarmed and he's getting the Put your hands down! WAP! WAP! WAP! Put your hands down! WAP! WAP* WAP! put your hands down! WAP! KICK!*WAP! ..treatment.

[Bavarian Raven]

I dont think anyone has mentioned the simple fact that if this young man hadn't decided to take those drugs - drugs that do horrible things to you and make you do horrible things - he would not have been shot. People need to take responsibility for their actions - you do stupid things (take drugs, etc), you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Bavarian Raven

[+and-then]

I dont think anyone has mentioned the simple fact that if this young man hadn't decided to take those drugs - drugs that do horrible things to you and make you do horrible things - he would not have been shot. People need to take responsibility for their actions - you do stupid things (take drugs, etc), you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

What you say is undeniable but I say if this cop had taken the time to pick up his pepper spray the young man might be alive today.

[Bavarian Raven]

What you say is undeniable but I say if this cop had taken the time to pick up his pepper spray the young man mightbe alive today.

Or, the cop could be dead plus anyone else the young man attacked.

Bottomline is, the young man put himself into this situation and he suffered the consequences.