When Is It Excessive Force Anymore?

[Kazoo]

Or, the cop could be dead plus anyone else the young man attacked.

Bottomline is, the young man put himself into this situation and he suffered the consequences.

He's a stupid student that got unlucky with his response to drugs. I don't think he deserved to die. He's not a high profile criminal or anything.

[Bavarian Raven]

He's a stupid student that got unlucky with his response to drugs. I don't think he deserved to die. He's not a high profile criminal or anything.

Never said he deserved to die. No one does. But that being said, he made stupid choices that led to his death. Hence why you should think through your actions before you do them. It's called common sense.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Bavarian Raven

[MstrMsn]

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Right... there's no similarities whatsoever. Thats why we sometimes train with the police

And as a former combat soldier that has served with police officers - the training they get is nowhere near the type of training we get. Maybe if they are SWAT or HRT (or some other special tactics unit).

[John Rayne]

This may sound like bs but every situation is different, and both sides of this are wrong, wrong, wrong.

It is true that cops are trained and told repeatidly if you discharge your weapon there must be just cause and you shoot to kill. No fooling.

But who is to say what justifies this... You and me (all of us) have different reactions to different things. Great expample is MMA/fighting, you got one guy hopped up jumping and screaming and you got one guy still and not even breathing hard, cold killer. See what I'm saying. In the heat of the moment everyone reacts different, even on a level you cannot control such as adrenaline. So it is hard to judge and say this or that because if someone is threatened, really scared, wether I or you are or think he should be doesnt mean anything. That split second in time to fire that gun will be with that officer forever. So I guess what I am saying is it sucks both ways, that there is even good and bad but there is and we gotta deal with it.

Sorry to anyone that is Killed, humans killing humans is always sad

[Stellar]

I dont think anyone has mentioned the simple fact that if this young man hadn't decided to take those drugs - drugs that do horrible things to you and make you do horrible things - he would not have been shot. People need to take responsibility for their actions - you do stupid things (take drugs, etc), you must be prepared to suffer the consequences.

You're absolutely right. In fact, why not shoot and kill all those people who walk on your grass, despite the "Do not walk on grass" sign? After all, they would not have been killed if they simply obeyed the sign. It's their fault.

[Stellar]

And as a former combat soldier that has served with police officers - the training they get is nowhere near the type of training we get. Maybe if they are SWAT or HRT (or some other special tactics unit).

I fully understand that, and that's kind of my point. They should be getting the training they require to be able to handle an unarmed naked man without resorting to shooting them.

[DarkHunter]

The problem here is that so many people are not accepting this was not a normal one on one encounter. I do not know what drugs the person was on but he was showing symptoms of being on PCP or bath salts. I know some police officers, some who have worked in narcotics, and I heard stories from them about what some of these drugs can do, like the time it took 4 cops to stop one scrawny 150 lb guy on PCP and other two cops to restrain him. They always said that in a one on one fight you will never beat the guy on PCP.

They simply do not feel pain so the vast majority of martial arts already won't work, leaving only the martial arts designed to kill or maim, pepper spray and tazers won't work since those require pain to be felt to have effect, so what non lethal methods do all you people suggest who think the cop was wrong with shooting him.

People keep bring up how he should of called for back up or retreated into the building. The problem with those are that an officer can't just let a clearly dangerous person run around freely. Who knows how long it would of took for back up to arrive and what could of happened in that time span.

[Bavarian Raven]

You're absolutely right. In fact, why not shoot and kill all those people who walk on your grass, despite the "Do not walk on grass" sign? After all, they would not have been killed if they simply obeyed the sign. It's their fault.

And it clearly shows that you don't think people should take responsibility for their actions sad really...

[+and-then]

The problem here is that so many people are not accepting this was not a normal one on one encounter. I do not know what drugs the person was on but he was showing symptoms of being on PCP or bath salts. I know some police officers, some who have worked in narcotics, and I heard stories from them about what some of these drugs can do, like the time it took 4 cops to stop one scrawny 150 lb guy on PCP and other two cops to restrain him. They always said that in a one on one fight you will never beat the guy on PCP.

They simply do not feel pain so the vast majority of martial arts already won't work, leaving only the martial arts designed to kill or maim, pepper spray and tazers won't work since those require pain to be felt to have effect, so what non lethal methods do all you people suggest who think the cop was wrong with shooting him.

People keep bring up how he should of called for back up or retreated into the building. The problem with those are that an officer can't just let a clearly dangerous person run around freely. Who knows how long it would of took for back up to arrive and what could of happened in that time span.

The university will be sued and will lose because the police officer will be shown to have ignored policy and procedure. He did not even have baton or pepper spray available AND he had drawn his weapon before even going out of the building. It might be that shooting the young man was the only effective response but we will never know because the police officer did not try any other means even though he would have had opportunity while backing away, multiple times.

[DarkHunter]

The university will be sued and will lose because the police officer will be shown to have ignored policy and procedure. He did not even have baton or pepper spray available AND he had drawn his weapon before even going out of the building. It might be that shooting the young man was the only effective response but we will never know because the police officer did not try any other means even though he would have had opportunity while backing away, multiple times.

Not having his baton or pepper spray on him may cause a legal issue but it will probably be minor. Having his weapon drawn before leaving the building is the only logical course of action, he is entering a potential hostile situation at night alone. The problem is what other means was he going to try, hand to hand would not work against someone on PCP or bath salts and once you engage in hand to hand there is no retreating. Pepper spray has a very short range and if it proves to be ineffective the distance between the officer and the other guy can be closed before the officer would have time to retreat.

[Travelling Man]

and then, do you have a copy of the rules and regulations the University has for their University Police Department? Do you KNOW for a fact that the cop was supposed to have a baton and pepper spray?

In the Use of Force Continuum, you use whatever means you have according to your regulations and situation to meet the threat perceived. The cop obviously thought the idiot outside was a significant threat that needed to be met with deadly force, so he drew his weapon and went outside. When a trained LEO sees a threat, they have to react accordingly. If the kid was knocking on the door politely, the cop would have opened the door and politely asked what he wanted. This kid did not do that - instead he was pounding so hard on the door and windows that the officers there thought that he was an immediate threat to himself of someone else.

Try this - it may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force

Officer presence didn't work, so the LEO attempted to use verbal commands - which didn't work. When charged, it is VERY easy to see that the LEO thought that an intermediate step wouldn't work, and employed deadly force.

Regarding the disease aspect... for the folks that say that the cop should have used hand-to-hand techniques - and what would have happened if they didn't work - or if the kid was better trained? You might suggest that the cop THEN go for his weapon - but then it's too late, because the kid is within arm's reach... and the odds of getting the weapon drawn and getting a good shot are severely diminished. Regarding the diseases, we aren't talking about influenza here... how about hepatitis or even HIV/AIDS?? Those aren't just "diseases" that can be cured - it's a death sentence. Are you still willing to risk getting one of those? Cops are trained to keep themselves SAFE - and that means NOT entering into a physical confrontation when at all possible. The closer you are to the subject, the closer they are to you.

Besides, do we KNOW that the cop was fully aware that the kid was unarmed? A good friend got cut by a jerk with a razor between two fingers when attempting to subdue him. Nobody knew it was there. Do you STILL want to engage in hand-to-hand? Oops, sorry, hand-to-blade?

After reading the thread from my last post, I have to laugh about the suggestion that the cop should have waited for toxicology reports to act. Did the cops have a week to ten days to wait for the results? I think not.

And a good friend has told me that there IS video of the entire encounter - from two angles. The video hasn't been released yet. What will you say if/when it shows the cop trying to talk the kid down and the kid going nuts on him... resulting in the kid's death?

_________________________

EDITED TO ADD:

And what about that percentage of people that are totally immune to the affects of pepper spray? Besides, PCP and other drugs have been shown to make users effectively immune to physical pain - especially to things like batons. I've also seen people shrug off the affects of being Tased.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Travelling Man

[The Silver Thong]

There's your answer. Just because someone is naked, doesn't make them any less dangerous.

Was the man armed. did he make threats, did he pose a threat to anyone but a trigger happy cop.

[Travelling Man]

Didja miss the posts that showed that he had attacked two couple prior to this?

Oh, thought so.

[The Silver Thong]

And it clearly shows that you don't think people should take responsibility for their actions sad really...

so cops can shoot anyone that is drunk and not fully funcational even though being drunk is legal.

Edited October 12, 2012 by The Silver Thong

[The Silver Thong]

Didja miss the posts that showed that he had attacked two couple prior to this?

Oh, thought so.

Can you discribe the attack as you must have been there.

[Travelling Man]

I was going off the links provided by other folks... which must be too much work for you to read. There were reports of two couples being attacked by a naked man who punched and attempted to bite them.

[Euphorbia]

Was this police officer on duty alone? If so, why? A police officer shouldn't be on duty alone. (My opinion)

If he wasn't alone, why did he go out alone......with his gun drawn?

If he really thought that there was enough of a threat to draw his gun, then he should have stayed inside and waited for backup or asked another officer to go out with him if he wasn't alone.

You don't go into a potentially dangerous situation without backup! Either way, this officer was definitely ill-prepared!

[acidhead]

I think it all depends on how the individual holding the handgun sized up the physical and psychological matchup based upon their own personal experiences in life. Most people will say how they would have handled any situation requiring tough and difficult decisions. But if the individual doesn't these experiences through life than there is no way of knowing what will happen.

[+and-then]

I think it all depends on how the individual holding the handgun sized up the physical and psychological matchup based upon their own personal experiences in life. Most people will say how they would have handled any situation requiring tough and difficult decisions. But if the individual doesn't these experiences through life than there is no way of knowing what will happen.

I agree completely if we are talking about the average person being confronted in such a manner. But as citizens we should have a right to expect a bit more from the people who are literally given the power of life or death over us. A sworn police officer should have training that enables them to do more than react at the most base of levels. It is the training that one resorts to in such situations that make them a professional to begin with. I don't think the young man who got scared (probably) and pulled a trigger is evil - I think he wasn't properly trained or, possibly, he just wasn't suited to the profession. He definitely broke the standards of the uniform he was wearing and it might have made all the difference in this case.

[Shiloh17]

The last few naked people we have heard about started eating people. I'd probably shoot too, in the right circumstance.

[acidhead]

I agree completely if we are talking about the average person being confronted in such a manner. But as citizens we should have a right to expect a bit more from the people who are literally given the power of life or death over us. A sworn police officer should have training that enables them to do more than react at the most base of levels. It is the training that one resorts to in such situations that make them a professional to begin with. I don't think the young man who got scared (probably) and pulled a trigger is evil - I think he wasn't properly trained or, possibly, he just wasn't suited to the profession. He definitely broke the standards of the uniform he was wearing and it might have made all the difference in this case.

If you agreed completely why didn't you like my comment... lol