The Phoenix Lights revisited

[booNyzarC]

Indeed. Some debates are not ever going to see an end.

With all the activity in the air that night, it seems that even if a Snowbird team had been identified that it would then have to be further qualified with triangulation. at which point many would throw their hands in the air and say "Well that is just too hard to understand" .

We do know that many pilots were in the air that night. Yet none of them claim to have flown over a giant delta shaped craft.

I agree that the finer details are never likely to come to light, but that doesn't have a very significant impact on the overall conclusions as far as I'm concerned. It would be nice to have every piece of the puzzle, but I think we have enough pieces right now to reasonably put this one into the 'solved' section regarding the question of potential ET involvement. I'm sure there are many who will disagree, but oh well.

It seems at least that there are more in agreement now than there were when this thread started. That's something in itself if you ask me.

[psyche101]

indeed, so; possibly it might be possible [although highly irregular] to go for a spin unofficially in Canadian airspace, but to fly military aircraft down virtually the entire height of the U.S. without giving any prior notification or any record of your decision to do so does rather stretch credibility, I think. Remember that this is another country's airspace, and one that tends to be rather touchy about unauthorised incursions in their airspace, most of all if you're flying military aircrfat.

Then this hoax never got noticed officially, then? they flew all the way down to Phoenix (and bear in mind how far that is; they'd have to fly virtually all the way across the U.S. from north to south), trundled about a bit with all their lights blazing, and went back home (without apparently needing to put down anywhere to refuel either) without either the CAF authorities or indeed the USAF or NORAD noticing, or if they did notice seeming at all bothered?

Perhaps citizens are simply not privy to all military movements?

From Boons link:

By contrast, Morey and his friend Steve, a Pan Am 727 airliner pilot, provided this account: “We were on my patio facing due North at 8:30 pm. We had binoculars and had been watching planes land. We saw a cluster of lights coming from the direction of the comet and moving independently. Extremely bright lights pale orange in color. Through the binoculars we could see five independent objects. We knew they were separate because we could see stars between them. They were in a delta wing configuration headed south. The whole array went over my home. We could hear nothing as they disappeared over South Mountain. My personal view is that it was a military stealth exercise from Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada or Holloman Air Force Base in California.”

Several exercises were in the air that night, it might even be difficult for those very pilots to tell you of they were "The Lights" seem at what time. With thousands of claims, it is a big ask when the waters have already been muddied.

[psyche101]

I agree that the finer details are never likely to come to light, but that doesn't have a very significant impact on the overall conclusions as far as I'm concerned. It would be nice to have every piece of the puzzle, but I think we have enough pieces right now to reasonably put this one into the 'solved' section regarding the question of potential ET involvement. I'm sure there are many who will disagree, but oh well.

Indeed, I think it is a way for some to discount that which cannot be discounted.

I think that asking to be informed of all military exercises is indeed a bit much of an ask. Before or after the event.

It seems at least that there are more in agreement now than there were when this thread started. That's something in itself if you ask me.

Indeed, you have done well Boon. I knew you were the man to call on, although I must admit to personally being pleased at seeing you more regularly. I see ET is making a retreat, but some still wish to keep the giant triangle alive.

[psyche101]

For the record, i am still a beliver... just this case got debunked..plenty more work to be done...

You have taken an important step though, this is as has been mentioned, is considered a major sighting, it just has nothing to back the exotic conclusions. One bit of rubbish in the bin, now on to the next project. It might well be what you seek. Good luck to finding that needle in the largest haystack in the Universe.

With rubbish like this out of the way, genuine mysteries like Portage County might get more of a listen.

[psyche101]

Of course, maybe the aerobic team is a red herring.. The term snowbird is used to describe people from the U.S. Northeast, U.S. Midwest, or Canada who spend a large portion of winter in warmer locales such as California, Arizona, Florida, Texas, the Carolinas, or elsewhere along the Sun Belt region of the southern and southwest United States, Mexico, and areas of the Caribbean.

Maybe it was just someone vacationing and someone misconstrued.

Or as Boon suggested, it could possibly be a hoax, such as was pulled of ny the Stormville Flyers at Hudson Valley - LINK

[psyche101]

It seems some people would be more comfortable calling it Santa Claus than a being from another world. Im one for thinking it was not from this earth like the majority of people and the Governor said.

Perhaps the other world claim need a bit more than assuming that all the witnesses are seeing the same thing, which they clearly are not?

Do you really find this:

Is more convincing than the math and history of the event presented in depth in this thread? Where math is concerned, no belief or guesses are required. But to believe people saw a giant triangle craft, one does have to dismiss evidence.

[psyche101]

It was a rhetorical question really and only a personality type like you would respond to it specifically.

Even though several did. Your observational skills are a bit light on.

And I was referring to the claims made in the OP. I thought that was obvious.

I'm not disappointed by anything or any 'answers', especially from you.

Good to know. However, if you do understand them what is your beef with them? This I have not seen, nor has anyone. Why not debate and offer and countering points that you see as valid as opposed to this train wreck of a post Do you even adress the information? That is all that matters, and subsequently, what you are really angry at, and using me to express that anger.

How do you expect to be taken at all seriously, when you do not adress the information, and attack the messenger?

Your ego is phenomenal!

How do you come to that conclusion, and what does ego have to do with evidence? I do not own or create evidence, at best I present it. Are you confusing intense curiosity with ego? From here it looks like that. Because I seem to be aware of a few more facts that puts the more childish scenarios into perspective, I take it that you consider such as ego? In fact, I think you need to have a more than healthy ego to make the comment you did

But when one is at a loss for structured debate, personal insult is usually the first choice as an alternative to information. If anything, you have illustrated a great deal about your own character here. Nothing I have not seen before on these boards.

Unlike some here and even though I'm a new member, I view your bravado and self assuredness as camouflage for your own actualized fears.

And what fears would they be BB? Fear of what - Aliens? LOL! All I fear is ignorance, but perhaps not too many here seem to fear that? Some outright relish in it!

Fear of the phenomena is another "believer" Fallback position that is translated as "I have nothing so this is how I insult you".

Damn straight you are inexperienced. It shows. You think I am tough? You out to have a look at the real world. If you tried to pass such muddy rubbish of as fact in any other profession your career would last but minutes.

It is not bravado, I treat people how they treat me, have a look at this very thread for a multitude of examples. My attitude is a reflection of your own manners. Don't like what you see? I cannot do anything about that now can I. You mistake bravado for assuredness of one's factual position.

You are so condescending and belittling to other members and maybe when I have more time I'll quote some of your recent posts so you might be able to see for yourself what an a$$ you have been.

And these quotes............... are where?

Gee, that showed me.

And there we have it. Past the smilies, past the underlines, bolded and coloured text and now we have the last stage of desperation as seen by a noob with no evidence for the grandiose claims made. The insult. What part of that convinces me that you have ever doen more than take a cursory look at the Phoenix Lights and decided right then and there that Aliens had landed on the planet? None of it. Yeah, great debate there, it really shows the math up. No, you did not come up with the case of the century that has been in front of everyone for over a decade, and Lynne Kitei is not some amazing revelation that somehow slipped past everyone on this board to prove an Alien visitation. It's just the Phoenix Lights and has to be shoehorned into an ET story. No matter how much it offends your that real information exists that denies the silly claims made by Symmington, it still exists and cannot be bent shaped or poured into what shape you want it to be. It is what it is. Until you can wrap your head around that, I think you will be looking for someone to also say what you believe until the day you die.

Instead of crying in a corner, how about presenting some evidence?

As I already stated, I don't believe this particular mass sighting can or should be dissected like some ridiculously overblown CSI case and also because I feel it's entirely the wrong approach.

Yes you have said that. You have not said why that is, or how this would assist with more in depth information. What you say in fact makes no sense. But I do feel it reflects your position with regards to evidence garnred to date on this particular event. I think you want us to go with your gut feel. It is just that what you have been consuming does not agree with me. How dare I? What was that about ego?

What approaches have you suggested? Believe Fyfe Symmington, because of the pilots that have a recollection, this retired one is saying what you want to hear? What more have you presented?

Get back to the evidence, and put the emotions away for a bit. It's not becoming in a forum.

I'm not at all surprised that others don't see the bigger picture, or that world governments aren't viewed as the lying, deceiving, manipulative organizations they are. Many either don't want to or can't acknowledge this hard reality.

Your big picture that you are presenting is stupid and does not make an ounce of sense. You are not the first with this silly CT, and you are not the last who has failed to explain the basics of how it could possibly work. Governments hate each other. China is not going to hide Interstellar traffic visiting the states from the rest of the world for anything. They already are arrogant with the US and have sent veiled insults at their financial competence. Can you see the middle East Co-Operating with the US on Interstellar visitors? All the countries that contravened the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty were not treated with silence, the opposing Governments shouted to the world from the rooftops what they were doing. The combined might of all Governments fail to keep the Sea Shepard out of the seas and aggravating a situation. How is this supposed world Government secret society supposed to work amongst enemies?

It makes zero sense. All our resources and weapons are pointing back at earth, at each other, not into space. Every precedent I have offered shows the claims makes zero sense.

AGAIN....I'm done debating this specific event. I'm only responding to your last message because you shouldn't feel justified in having the last word on this subject or any other like you always believe you're entitled to!

Not the first proverbial white flag I have seen either. Good luck with your pursuit, I hope you find what you are looking for. Rather than insult you as you were unable to refrain from, I'll just say I think we are on different pages.

[psyche101]

There was a video?

Man, you disappointed me.

[quillius]

hello all,

I am still researching but thought I would throw some coal on the fire

http://ufoupdateslis...v/m13-004.shtml

http://home.comcast..../SUNlite2_3.pdf (I know this has been seen by most)

interesting to note that Ortega says he had various measurements of the observation given to him by Mitch.

http://www.ufoupdate...r/m17-014.shtml

do you trust Barwood? what about Ortega?

back soon

edit to add one more, although Psyche already posted this, here it is again http://ufoupdateslis...v/m20-043.shtml

oh and one last thing........was it really just the two events? I say we are actually dealing with more than two events which I will highlight in the thread once research is complete.

Edited October 22, 2012 by quillius

[Space Commander Travis]

Perhaps citizens are simply not privy to all military movements?

At the time, perhaps, although major exercises are usually publicised in order to not alarm the People. Anyway, the point was that there must be records of whether or not there were any ®CAF squadrons deployed to Arizona for exercises at that time? There'd be no reason for that to still be Secret. Therefore it should be easy enough to verify if there might have been any canadian pilots in the vicinity. If so, it may have been them, even if they may not have been the Snowbirds.

[quillius]

thanks Q.....

good point....has a time ever been mentioned anywhere.....

Hey Bee,

only through second hand accounts.....basically nothing to yet confirm the many eye witnesses reports are the same 'object(s)' Mitch saw.....but as I mention briefly in previous post, I think there was a lot of activity in the air that night and this would have included some military jets,

I am sure someone using aa map with correct timings will show how Mitch corroborates with any report of a low flying triangle.......or maybe not...

[quillius]

Gidday Mate

Astronomer, amateur astronomer. That is just a description the press makes, and we have not control over that. I think that is potatoes potatos in this instance where the object of discussion is what he sighted, and the indisputable fact that of all the claims, his had the best view. If his experience was in question I think that would be a relevant point. But I do not think one needs to much experience to have a look around your own backyard.

Indeed you are right, when on approach planes do come close enough to the ground however Mitch's initial description is that he had the impression that the private planes he saw were small and high, which might account for those of us that have failing eyesight, such as myself, and parallax error would definitely account for a number of such claims as well.

I do not think what he proposes is at all unreasonable.

Cheers.

Hey Psyche,

Just to add that for the lights on the wing tips to merge and become a point source they would indeed as LS pointed out have to have been very high but in addition very very bright. As previously noted the brightness/strangeness of lights attracted attention as they didnt seem normal, but this begs the question just how high and bright were these planes?

also you say 'Mitch's initial description is that he had the impression that the private planes he saw were small and high'

I cannot see this anywhere? I have seen an incorrect assumption made (by Ortega I believe) that because they were small it meant they were high, which I previously highlighted as a fallacy.....being small could be caused by distance and not height, so we cannot conclude such.

[Golden Duck]

...

Just to add that for the lights on the wing tips to merge and become a point source they would indeed as LS pointed out have to have been very high but in addition very very bright. As previously noted the brightness/strangeness of lights attracted attention as they didnt seem normal, but this begs the question just how high and bright were these planes?

...

Questioning LS's facts is hardly ever fruitful, if ever. However, if an aircraft was flying at an angle to the observer, the apparent wingspan would be less than the actual wingspan. Maybe this is what's happening.

I'll also add that if I'm out at night walking walking by the ocean I can sometimes observe aircraft that appear to me as a single point of light. I assume they are from the a small airfield about 13km away. It's difficult to make out which direction they are heading; but they they are brighter than any star in the sky.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

57 pages of revisiting. Guess this hasn't been resolved.

that's because you can't fix 'stupid'

just saying!

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

I'll speak slowly for the slow at understanding in here.

You own a house in a rural area next to a heavily wooded area. You own many dogs that you keep fenced in, abutting the wooded area.

......Sunday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

......Monday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

.....Tuesday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

Wednesday night: WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

.............................WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

.............................WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFQOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

.............................WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

ALL,,,, NIGHT,,,,, LONG.

....Thursday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

.........Friday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

.....Saturday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

Ya see, it's really very simple, negatorries.

WOOF

Edited October 22, 2012 by Earl.Of.Trumps

[booNyzarC]

I sometimes wonder about some people.

[Space Commander Travis]

heavens, that must have taken some patience to type out. Is it an allusion to the famous incident in the Sherlock Holmes story, Silver Blaze?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

heavens, that must have taken some patience to type out. Is it an allusion to the famous incident in the Sherlock Holmes story, Silver Blaze?

hot dang, you have a lot of posts. I tip my hat, sir!

[Hazzard]

Friends applaud, the comedy is finished.

[psyche101]

Hey Psyche,

Just to add that for the lights on the wing tips to merge and become a point source they would indeed as LS pointed out have to have been very high but in addition very very bright.

Gidday Mate

I do not think they have to be bright. Just last night when I arrived home I saw an unusual light in the sky. It was very bright, and too high to hear, and I could only see one light. It caught my attention because it was crossing what is a normal flight path at about 30 degrees. Speed indicated to me that it was likely a plane. I see lights before I hear planes all the time, I do not think it has to be extremely bright, as they are by default. But merging one light into two I think would be easily accomplished with failing eyesight (which is everyone in Phoenix pretty much over 40 at least) or parallax error would more than compensate for many more claims. And considering the claims come from all corners of Phoenix, I do not see how parallax error is not a factor?

As previously noted the brightness/strangeness of lights attracted attention as they didnt seem normal, but this begs the question just how high and bright were these planes?

It depends on what he saw, Some are saying he saw military, but Mitch seems to think what he saw was private. SOme claims say the lights were in the direction of the Phoenix airport, if the planes were private as Mitch suggested, and on approach to the airport, I would presume they are in a landing pattern, the height would then be between 3,000 and 300 feet roughly wouldn't it? Again, dependant in individual claims based on vantage points.

also you say 'Mitch's initial description is that he had the impression that the private planes he saw were small and high'

I cannot see this anywhere? I have seen an incorrect assumption made (by Ortega I believe) that because they were small it meant they were high, which I previously highlighted as a fallacy.....being small could be caused by distance and not height, so we cannot conclude such.

That's the one. the Hack and the Quack article. I gave the link

It was plain to see, Stanley says. Under magnification, Stanley could clearly see that each light split into pairs, one each on the tips of squarish wings. Even under the telescope's power, the planes appeared small, indicating that they were flying high. Stanley says he followed the planes for about a minute, then turned his telescope to more interesting objects.

Frances Emma Barwood has an agenda, I think she is a hyped up nutter. Looking at what she offered:

There is an interesting rumor also that the head of the astronomers club that the young boy who saw planes way up there was a member, is a personal friend of Tony O's. I seem to remember when the first article appeared last year, he had called me, he did say that a friend of his had an astronomer's club and one of the members saw planes that night. He also accused me of not returning his friend's call. The man did call but never left a number and said that he would have the kid call me, which he never did. I find it most interesting that 1 young man says it was small plane formation way up high and thousands say it was a humongous flying boomerang shaped object, that flew very slow, was very obvious, flew over the most densely populated path from north to south of Arizona was very low and was totally silent! And TONY ORTEGA believes the kid!

Spiteful, nasty, and offeres no more than an appeal to authority. Another who qualifies "thousands" as solid "evidence" I'd really like to see her back that up. This is the sort of crackpot who stifled Mitch. From a personal perspective, I do not believe her for a second that she had no number to call, and she stated that she knew Mitch was a friend of Ortegas, whom she could have easily called to get Mitch's details. Frances Emma Barwood is one of the people that make this subject a tin foil hat one. I think UFOLogists should be more wary of hooking up with dodgy people like this to be honest.

Edited October 23, 2012 by psyche101

[psyche101]

At the time, perhaps, although major exercises are usually publicised in order to not alarm the People. Anyway, the point was that there must be records of whether or not there were any ®CAF squadrons deployed to Arizona for exercises at that time? There'd be no reason for that to still be Secret. Therefore it should be easy enough to verify if there might have been any canadian pilots in the vicinity. If so, it may have been them, even if they may not have been the Snowbirds.

How much information do we have on the Snowbird operation other than it happened, and would we even know about it if not for this event?

[psyche101]

that's because you can't fix 'stupid'

just saying!

We did try!!

[psyche101]

I'll speak slowly for the slow at understanding in here.

You own a house in a rural area next to a heavily wooded area. You own many dogs that you keep fenced in, abutting the wooded area.

......Sunday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

......Monday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

.....Tuesday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

Wednesday night: WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

.............................WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

.............................WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFQOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

.............................WOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOFWOOF

ALL,,,, NIGHT,,,,, LONG.

....Thursday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

.........Friday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

.....Saturday night: Sleeping dogs lie.

Ya see, it's really very simple, negatorries.

WOOF

So was it a burglar, or did another dog on heat wander past on Wednesday night?

Something you should be aware of or not?

[DONTEATUS]

WHere did it all Go So! wrong ?

[Space Commander Travis]

How much information do we have on the Snowbird operation other than it happened, and would we even know about it if not for this event?

They're an Aerobatic team. Their operations aren't exactly a secret. the point I keep trying to say is that it should be easy enough to verify whether or not their were any Canadian squadrons in the area for exercises at the time. Someone must still have a record of that, and there's no reason why that would be secret.