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Bionic Bigfoot

The Phoenix Lights revisited

1,033 posts in this topic

*sigh*

Never mind...

I think I might be able to read your mind there booN. Is that proof of the paranormal?? :P

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I think I might be able to read your mind there booN. Is that proof of the paranormal?? :P

I don't know mate, but I really wanted to leave that meme up there... Just like I'd like to upload this screenshot I have of last night's edited post...

I know it won't do any good though. The numpty has me on ignore anyway, and no amount of sensible discussion is going to sway him even if he did bother to read the posts related to another point of view. He'll just keep on trolling away, calling skeptical people 'sheeple', 'slo-mos', 'stupid', and whatever other nonsense he manages to yank from his hind end. He proved that much in the train wreck of a thread about that Russian missile test.

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*Snip

These people saw *something*...

Sorry EOT but this is the only part of your post that actually had any relevance.

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I don't know mate, but I really wanted to leave that meme up there... Just like I'd like to upload this screenshot I have of last night's edited post...

I know it won't do any good though. The numpty has me on ignore anyway, and no amount of sensible discussion is going to sway him even if he did bother to read the posts related to another point of view. He'll just keep on trolling away, calling skeptical people 'sheeple', 'slo-mos', 'stupid', and whatever other nonsense he manages to yank from his hind end. He proved that much in the train wreck of a thread about that Russian missile test.

I'm sure you are aware that such tactics are reserved for those with a weak argument. They have to try to support it somehow and an air of superiority (real or not....not in this case) can stifle naysayers as well as those who would rather not goad such behavior. Then victory can be claimed when nobody wants to respond because they think they have everyone stymied. I too find it tiresome however.

Edited by Slave2Fate
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I'm sure you are aware that such tactics are reserved for those with a weak argument. They have to try to support it somehow and an air of superiority (real or not....not in this case) can stifle naysayers as well as those who would rather not goad such behavior. Then victory can be claimed when nobody wants to respond because they think they have everyone stymied. I too find it tiresome however.

Yes, it is tiresome indeed. Oh well, such is life on these here interwebs I s'pose... :P

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Gidday mate,

Gidday

I am working with a map at the moment whilst researching it and trying to plot times and detail to try and figure things out. I am being quite 'strict' on reports used and I am trying to filter out all and any reports put forth within a two week window as opposed to using any that came months/years after.

Are you looking at military and civillian? I think you have your work cut out for you in the civillian area.

Hence why I feel it is vital to have something in Mitchs own words. Barwood may well have added to the confusion but I dont think Ortega has helped either.

Maybe contact Mitch? I wonder if he might be conducive to helping solve the conundrum? I'lll have a look at that astronomy club he belongs to and see if I can make contact that way.

Printy used the range of 19000ft to 35000ft I believe, he used these in relation to Mitchs sighting and how the formation could explain the vshape, whilst the height at the given range meant it loosly explained the single lights (as opposed to two per plane) and the apparent perceived slow moving craft.

I do not entirely doubt this at this point, it is just that I remember reading that Mitch seemed sure he had seen private planes, but that could be an embellishment, or Mitch making an assumption. He was not able to offer numbers or anything, so the exact identification would be hazy.

Agreed, and again strengthens the argument I have for needing Mitchs own words.

Well, lets see if we cannot drag him into that which we have created for him. I think this might be the only avenue.

And they do this without stopping to think for a minute how Mitchs sighting could actually strengthen their case if used correctly....i.e. military jets sent up :)

Hamiltons claim? They have more problems if the identified F15c is what was supposedly sent up.

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I see what you're saying, but to me that adds another mystery: why was there no record of the Hortens being flown in the US, and nothing has ever come to light ever since?

I really and honestly believe there could be hundreds of reasons.

Douglas Corrigan (January 22, 1907 - December 9, 1995) was an American aviator born in Galveston, Texas. He was nicknamed "Wrong Way" in 1938. After a transcontinental flight from Long Beach, California, to New York, he flew from Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, New York, to Ireland, though his flight plan was filed to return to Long Beach. He claimed his unauthorized flight was due to a navigational error, caused by heavy cloud cover that obscured landmarks and low-light conditions, causing him to misread his compass. However, he was a skilled aircraft mechanic (he was one of the builders of Charles Lindbergh's Spirit of St. Louis and had made several modifications to his own plane, preparing it for his transatlantic flight. He had been denied permission to make a nonstop flight from New York to Ireland, and his "navigational error" was seen as deliberate. Nevertheless, he never publicly admitted to having flown to Ireland intentionally.

LINK

Pilot creates scare in the air with plane's unauthorized flight - LINK

SKYWEST PILOT TAKES JARRING RIDE IN STOLEN PLANE LINK

And on the Hudson Valley UFO

Some of you reading this are, I’m sure, terrified, but worry not: gigantic alien spaceships are not roaming the skies of New England. Go back to using your tinfoil for luncheon meats, not helmets. The ‘UFO sightings’ were the results of that group of glorious airmen, The Stormville Flyers. They owned ultralight aircraft that they had modified with some fancy lights, and their boredom and willingness to dupe the locals is the sole cause of this case. Flying in formation, using controls inside the cockpit to change the colors of the lights or to switch them all off (making it look as though the craft had mysteriously disappeared), and using the public’s gullibility and the inevitable UFO hysteria that follows any sighting, they were able to convince the public that people from outer space had decided to cruise the area.

LINK

The FAA even has a form so that one can report low flying aircraft, which indicates to me that rules are not as tight as they could be.

HELP FAA IDENTIFY UNAUTHORIZED LOW-FLYING AIRCRAFT - LINK

Exactly the same question applies for the Yb-35 or similar things. What we're doing if we adopt this theory is that we're talking about nine mystery aircraft flying in formation. If, as I'm afraid, I don't see any reason to accept the explanation that they were Hortens and/or Northrops, then we're still left with UFOs, whether they (or rather whether an artist's impression) look like one particular kind of terrestrial aircraft or not.

But where they all the same? Arnold says he became aware of their shape when sunlit reflected form them. With that description it seems to me that he might have identified only one craft, and assumed the rest were the same design.

Arnold described them as a series of objects with convex shapes, though he later revealed that one object differed by being crescent-shaped.

LINK

Besides, might not Arnold's description itself be influenced by his subconsciously thinking what an advanced aircraft might look like? He didn't suppose that they had to be ET, after all. What they were as far as he was concerned was mystery aircraft. If an Artist, coming up with a suggestion of what he might have seen, came up with something that resembled an advanced Terrestrial aircraft, he'd have seen no reason to reject it.

Perfectly reasonable, but how could one verify this?

And what shape would we be looking for if this was the case?

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Psyche, you were the one that asked "So what was *IT*?" When you say "it", you tacitly admit to existence - not identity, of course, but existence.

I have never denied the existence of the military exercises and private planes in the area. I do feel that all evidence that exists firmly supports these solutions.

Go back and look at what I typed. I purposely never said one word that a possibe *IT* was causing the dogs to bark, whatever *IT* might be.

You, on the other hand, did what any normal person would do. You were so sure that the dog's actions were indicative of *something* being out there you simply assumed it had to be the case. Congratulations, so do I. So do we all, I'm sure.

Indeed, the scenario you typed out insisted something different happened on that night. And it did. Hale-Bop was making itself visible. A Major celestial event, which I feel is why people were looking up that night so late, and noticed what was going on.

"Body language" is quite important, and as loudly as those dogs barked that Wednesday night, a lot of humans barked the night of 3/13/97 in the South Western corner of North America. *LOTS* of humans. And they were gravely disturbed, many, fearful. Body language. Still think that means nothing?

Yes, My wife will jump if she hears a hare outside. She will sit in bed terrified talking to me on the phone until I arrive home. If I hear a Hare outside or a Roo, I know what lives in the area, and am not concerned but curiosity will prompt me to have a look most of the time, as I like seeing wildlife in my yard. She is gravely disturbed, but not I. People react differently to different situations. Not to blow my own horn or anything, but I think perhaps I am a bit more fearless than others? I could never understand why people fear fear at a ball of light. But many claims such. My two sightings did not at all send a shiver through any part of me. I was merely fascinated.

That is why some people saw a giant craft and some saw individual lights.

Is that because using the same common sense in the Phoenix Lights case that you did in the dog's case leads you to understand your predetermined solution of "nothing out there" is wrong? Well, brace yourself...It is wrong. The people's body language is loud and clear.

But it is not. Some people who had tales of terror to tell made the papers, because.... that sells. If we were having a beer at my local, and the newspaper were dropped of in front of us, and one pile said "Military Exercise confuses Residents" and the other said "GIANT ALIEN CRAFT HOVERS OVER PHOENIX", which pile do you think would still be there at the end of the day?

That is what I see wrong here. The media. Whenever we rely on the media for information, from science to sightings, it gets it all wrong 99.9% of the time. Scientists hate talking to journalists for this very reason. I am sure I have left you the link to ABC's media watch article, whereby the Australian Broadcasting Commission went to the NT Times, a northern newspaper, and ousted the constant claims of alien ships, the NT News editor got snarky and cheeky, and said "All the UFO stuff is tongue in cheek anyway". The media has absolutely no accountability, and canot be relied upon as an accurate source. Hence, the photos, videos and math. That can tell us who is telling the truth, and who is not.

Notice, my opinion based on body language is the same in both cases, it is you that are in contradiction with yourself.

Please extrapolate, as I am not following you here.

It's a fait accompli, mon amis... *something* was out there that night in the skies over South Western North America.

That I agree with that. Yes I do not deny people saw something. Yet evidence does not support the erratic claims of a giant craft.

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I really and honestly believe there could be hundreds of reasons.

Douglas Corrigan (January 22, 1907 - December 9, 1995) was an American aviator born in Galveston, Texas. He was nicknamed "Wrong Way" in 1938. After a transcontinental flight from Long Beach, California, to New York, he flew from Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, New York, to Ireland, though his flight plan was filed to return to Long Beach. He claimed his unauthorized flight was due to a navigational error, caused by heavy cloud cover that obscured landmarks and low-light conditions, causing him to misread his compass. However, he was a skilled aircraft mechanic (he was one of the builders of Charles Lindbergh's Spirit of St. Louis and had made several modifications to his own plane, preparing it for his transatlantic flight. He had been denied permission to make a nonstop flight from New York to Ireland, and his "navigational error" was seen as deliberate. Nevertheless, he never publicly admitted to having flown to Ireland intentionally.

LINK

Pilot creates scare in the air with plane's unauthorized flight - LINK

SKYWEST PILOT TAKES JARRING RIDE IN STOLEN PLANE LINK

And on the Hudson Valley UFO

Some of you reading this are, I’m sure, terrified, but worry not: gigantic alien spaceships are not roaming the skies of New England. Go back to using your tinfoil for luncheon meats, not helmets. The ‘UFO sightings’ were the results of that group of glorious airmen, The Stormville Flyers. They owned ultralight aircraft that they had modified with some fancy lights, and their boredom and willingness to dupe the locals is the sole cause of this case. Flying in formation, using controls inside the cockpit to change the colors of the lights or to switch them all off (making it look as though the craft had mysteriously disappeared), and using the public’s gullibility and the inevitable UFO hysteria that follows any sighting, they were able to convince the public that people from outer space had decided to cruise the area.

LINK

The FAA even has a form so that one can report low flying aircraft, which indicates to me that rules are not as tight as they could be.

HELP FAA IDENTIFY UNAUTHORIZED LOW-FLYING AIRCRAFT - LINK

But where they all the same? Arnold says he became aware of their shape when sunlit reflected form them. With that description it seems to me that he might have identified only one craft, and assumed the rest were the same design.

LINK

Perfectly reasonable, but how could one verify this?

And what shape would we be looking for if this was the case?

I will consider the arguments which you raise in the "Why do you beleive in UFOs" thread, since we're taking the question of Phoneix somewhat off topic here. Stay tuned!

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Sorry EOT but this is the only part of your post that actually had any relevance.

wow.

you're impressive/

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There is a lot of talk going on about flares again.

the people in Sonora Mexico that saw *something* could not have seen flares over Phoenix and here's why.

The A-10 with its LUU2 dispenser will drop the flare at 6,000 feet altitude.

the ignition starts at 3,000 feet and extinguishing at 500 feet.

The closest point in Sonora to Phoenix is too far away to see something at 3,000 feet of altitude

Also, there is the matter of mountains in Sonora and Arizona that are inconveniently in the way.

what a shame, huh?

I have not done the math to Nevada yet, it is getting to be pointless. But I might.

We'll see where this one ends up with the critical thinkers [cough] here

EDIT - furghetaboudit.

At about 18:55 PST (19:55 MST), a man reported seeing a V-shaped object above Henderson, Nevada. (wiki)

Henderson is about 250 miles away from phoenix. WAY to far to see anything at 3,000 feet altitude over Phoenix.

ta ta, critical thinkers.

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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I don't know mate, but I really wanted to leave that meme up there... Just like I'd like to upload this screenshot I have of last night's edited post...

I know it won't do any good though. The numpty has me on ignore anyway, and no amount of sensible discussion is going to sway him even if he did bother to read the posts related to another point of view. He'll just keep on trolling away, calling skeptical people 'sheeple', 'slo-mos', 'stupid', and whatever other nonsense he manages to yank from his hind end. He proved that much in the train wreck of a thread about that Russian missile test.

Hey nimrod,,, the "NUMPTY" doesn't have you on "ignore" I'm just ignoring you, you DOLT.

"Sensible discussion" my ****. are you even capable?

please stop dazzling me with your brilliance

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There were no flares that night.

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There is a lot of talk going on about flares again.

the people in Sonora Mexico that saw *something* could not have seen flares over Phoenix and here's why..

Confused much?

The flares were never claimed to be over (meaning directly above) the city of Phoenix. They were over (meaning directly above) the Barry Goldwater test range. That you and others keep claiming this only shows how little you even understand the case in question. If it continues then it can only be because of deliberate misrepresentation which will be singled out and the Mods made aware of.

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.

A few pages back I suggested that the BIG 'thing' seen by many people could have been a Big Black Delta...

http://www.ufocasebo...triangular.html

and it seems I'm not the only one...

http://www.ufoeviden...nts/doc1200.htm

Since September 11, 2001, Kelleher says, UFO sightings have decreased, except for in one category: Big Black Deltas.

"We think this BBD [big Black Delta] object may be a combination of lighter-than-air and aircraft hybrid technology," Kelleher says.

Imagine a black triangle longer than a football field that is able to move silently across the sky and seems to appear and disappear quickly.

"Currently we have 250 sightings of these objects in our database from all over the country," he says. "Superimposed on that map we have the locations of the air mobility command air force bases in the US."

Kelleher shows the mapand reports a clustering around certain bases, including spots in New Jersey, Los Angeles, Seattle, and of course near the famous Area 51 in Nevada known as Groom Lake.

"We have an interview from a person who claims to have seen one of these objects on the runway at Groom Lake," Kelleher says. "He said it was a gigantic triangular object on the ground."

Possible explanation for sightings

The BBDs are also thought to be behind the March 1997 sightings of strange lights over Phoenix, which were captured by several television new crews and tracked across the entire desert Southwest.

These proposed aircraft would be a good candidate for UFO reports because of their hypothetical quiet propulsion system, blimplike structure, and advanced stealth capabilities.

Electrochromatic displays are the key. The idea is to project images of the sky above an aircraft onto the machine's underbelly.

"There are a lot of indications that military soldiers have that kind of technology," Kelleher explains.

"They say you can see star fields in these. Some people even tell us if you really look, you can see the leading edge as it moves across the stars," Kelleher says.

So far the military is not confirming anything about the Deltas, but if past experience with the unmanned drones, the B2 Stealth Bomber, the SR-71, and other revolutionary aircraft is any indicator, the Deltas may be flying for years before anyone tells the public what they are.

^^^

The BBDs are also thought to be behind the March 1997 sightings of strange lights over Phoenix, which were captured by several television new crews and tracked across the entire desert Southwest.

I'm satisfied with this answer to the famous Phoenix Lights....

If you listen to the first part of the OP video...from about 12 mins to around 22 mins...the descriptions fit.

All the other stuff surrounding the events are probably just red herrings.....IMO

:tu:

.

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Hotel.jpg

:D

Funnily Robert Bigelow was the founder of NIDS.... :unsure2:

http://en.wikipedia....scovery_Science

The National Institute for Discovery Science was founded by Robert Bigelow as a way to channel funds into the purportedly scientific study of paranormal phenomena. They have done research into the area of cattle mutilation and also became the FAA's sole recipient for black triangle reports.[vague] In 2002, NIDS issued a report which said the black triangles were U.S. military prototype blimps, a finding agreed to by other experts but not confirmed by the military

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Hey nimrod,,, the "NUMPTY" doesn't have you on "ignore" I'm just ignoring you, you DOLT.

Your loss.

"Sensible discussion" my ****. are you even capable?

Yes, I've tried multiple times with you and I get nothing back but nonsense.

please stop dazzling me with your brilliance

If you ever actually want to learn about this case, I'd be more than happy to assist with that education.

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Confused much?

The flares were never claimed to be over (meaning directly above) the city of Phoenix. They were over (meaning directly above) the Barry Goldwater test range. That you and others keep claiming this only shows how little you even understand the case in question. If it continues then it can only be because of deliberate misrepresentation which will be singled out and the Mods made aware of.

serious question,,,

were the people in Henderson Nevada at 1,300 feet altitude able to see the flares over Goldwater testing grounds?

seriously.

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.

A few pages back I suggested that the BIG 'thing' seen by many people could have been a Big Black Delta...

http://www.ufocasebo...triangular.html

and it seems I'm not the only one...

http://www.ufoeviden...nts/doc1200.htm

^^^

The BBDs are also thought to be behind the March 1997 sightings of strange lights over Phoenix, which were captured by several television new crews and tracked across the entire desert Southwest.

I'm satisfied with this answer to the famous Phoenix Lights....

If you listen to the first part of the OP video...from about 12 mins to around 22 mins...the descriptions fit.

All the other stuff surrounding the events are probably just red herrings.....IMO

:tu:

.

I have never had a problem thinking that at least one of the objects, the so-called "mother ship", could be man made.

The problem with dissenters in here is, they really won't commit on something existing, or if they do, they sure like to keep it secret.

Another Issue I'll raise is, Psyche has brought up the fact that different people had differeing points of view on the shape of said object (mother ship).

here's a little article on the variable swept wing aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-sweep_wing

I only post it to say that the US *already* has a craft in production that can change shape on-the-fly.

Since the so-called "mother ship" was never identified, we do not know what it is and whether or not it may have some kind of capability

to also change it's shape and hence, appearance.

Translation...? Psyche's arguments saying the people should never be able to claim various shapes of this craft are unfounded at this point.

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serious question,,,

were the people in Henderson Nevada at 1,300 feet altitude able to see the flares over Goldwater testing grounds?

seriously.

Your mention of Henderson makes me think you are referring to one of the earliest sightings of that day. If I'm not mistaken, it took place sometime around 7:55, correct? Or are you referring to a different one? It's hard to tell when you fail to provide source links for what you're saying. Assuming it is the 7:55 sighting as I think, perhaps you should ask yourself why a sighting at 7:55 PM would have anything at all to do with the 10 PM flare drop.

Can you clarify your reasoning Earl?

Edit to correct time of Henderson sighting. About 7:55, not 7:30.

Edited by booNyzarC

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Can you clarify your reasoning Earl?

Please do Earl, because it sounds like you are confusing the 'V' shaped object(s) for the 'flares' again. You are aware that there were two incidents on that day right?

Here, read the Wikipedia article. Even if you don't agree with the possible explanations given it will at least give you a decent run-down of the two incidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Lights

Be aware also that the flares explanation is only for the 10 PM sighting. This was all covered early on in the thread.

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Please do Earl, because it sounds like you are confusing the 'V' shaped object(s) for the 'flares' again. You are aware that there were two incidents on that day right?

Here, read the Wikipedia article. Even if you don't agree with the possible explanations given it will at least give you a decent run-down of the two incidents.

http://en.wikipedia..../Phoenix_Lights

Be aware also that the flares explanation is only for the 10 PM sighting. This was all covered early on in the thread.

To me, this is a very important point to look at and fully understand.

It is the US military - specifically, the USAF, through a spokeswomen, that explained the whole incident off as "flares"

It can be proven that the flares at 3,000 feet over the Goldwater testing range, the altitude of ignition of the flare, cannot be seen in Henderson - or even close to Henderson, despite the fact that Henderson is 1,300 feet of elevation.

What does this mean? it means the military is lying, it also means that people in Henderson seeing an object similar to what was seen in and around Phoenix, clearly saw a craft of some kind that was obviously moving around the region quite a bit. it was *not* flares as the military insisted.

Also, in formulating the max distance an object @ 3000 feet can be seen by an observer at ground level, you get an answer that works only if the topology is smooth, like the ocean. The people in Sonora are so far away and the topology has mountains in their northern section of their state as well as mountains south of Goldwater testing Range in AZ, that I should think it impossible to see any flare activity in Sonora, period.

Now, one may come up with an explanation for what the people in Phoenix saw, but then you have to do something similar for what the people in Sonora saw, and again for what people in SE Nevada saw, and really,,, any part of Arizona that is outside the max distance of sight from the GT Range.

sounds like a lot of sightings that you would have to explain separately.

Occam's Razor likes the simple explanation - one or more unknown crafts flying around the region.

Yes, I was aware of two events, one about 8:00pm mountain time, and later around 10:00 pm.

All I am trying to point out is that no matter WHAT one does, there were sightings that cannot be sloughed off as "flares". can't ever be.

Also, I am looking at Prescott and Prescott Valley - north of Phoenix. They might also be out of range of seeing flares but I will have to calculate it.

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All I am trying to point out is that no matter WHAT one does, there were sightings that cannot be sloughed off as "flares". can't ever be.

Nobody ever said that flares explained everything. The 'V' shaped object sighted all over the place has never been explained as flares.The flares explanation only applies to the 10PM sighting in Phoenix. Every other sighting anywhere else at any other time has nothing to do with flares. A formation of planes has been suggested for all other sightings of a 'V' shaped object. That is the distinction I'm trying to point out to you.

Edited by Slave2Fate
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I have never had a problem thinking that at least one of the objects, the so-called "mother ship", could be man made.

The problem with dissenters in here is, they really won't commit on something existing, or if they do, they sure like to keep it secret.

Another Issue I'll raise is, Psyche has brought up the fact that different people had differeing points of view on the shape of said object (mother ship).

here's a little article on the variable swept wing aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia....able-sweep_wing

I only post it to say that the US *already* has a craft in production that can change shape on-the-fly.

Since the so-called "mother ship" was never identified, we do not know what it is and whether or not it may have some kind of capability

to also change it's shape and hence, appearance.

Translation...? Psyche's arguments saying the people should never be able to claim various shapes of this craft are unfounded at this point.

So we're asked to consider another aircraft that's been never revealed publicly and has been successfully kept secret since at least the 1990s, despite being, apparently regularly, seen in public. This is why the "secret aircraft" argument seems inherently implausible to me. The usual response to such objections that "We know that Earthyly aircraft exist, so they're automatically more likely", I'm afraid doesn't apply in this case, since all these "secret aircraft" are entirely hypothetical.

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Nobody ever said that flares explained everything. The 'V' shaped object sighted all over the place has never been explained as flares.The flares explanation only applies to the 10PM sighting in Phoenix. Every other sighting anywhere else at any other time has nothing to do with flares. A formation of planes has been suggested for all other sightings of a 'V' shaped object. That is the distinction I'm trying to point out to you.

applesandoranges_550x325_dialog.gif

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