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Bionic Bigfoot

Why do you believe in UFO's and aliens?

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Didnt Wernher von Braun say that they had outside help when building all of there weaponry and rockets and things.??

Not only that, but they were still in contact with them even when he was working for the US military and NASA. Oberth also said they had been "helped" by aliens.

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Not only that, but they were still in contact with them even when he was working for the US military and NASA. Oberth also said they had been "helped" by aliens.

Okay yeah I thought so and what was that case with the nazi bell where it just vanished and took that general with it? Iv always wondered what happened there

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Okay yeah I thought so and what was that case with the nazi bell where it just vanished and took that general with it? Iv always wondered what happened there

Gen. Hans Kammler definitely vanished in April 1945 and there were at least four separate and contradictory accounts of his supposed "death", but no one ever admitted to seeing or hearing from him again after that time. Not in South America or anywhere else.

He was in the Prague area at the end of the war, and was busily collecting plans, blueprints, experimental prototypes and other items which he hoped to trade for the Americans. Interestingly, the Nazis fought to the last minute to hold Prague, for over a week after Adolf had capped himself and even a couple days after the official German surrender on May 8th.

By then even the most demented and fanatical Nazis realized the war was over, but those who could find anything to trade were hurriedly trying to play let's make a deal with the British and Americans. Some of them were successful and SS General Kammler might have been one of those.

I don't now where he ended up, but he certainly got himself good and lost when all the dust settled. I don't blame him, since he was complicit in genocide and some of the worst crimes of the Second World World.

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View this video at exactly 43:30. It shows a letter from the USAF in response to a FOI request relating the UFO coverup.

Hi Syncronomy

Thank you for the clip, but I do not have access to Youtube. Could I please trouble you for a brief synopsis?

I do not think I worded myself properly. With the history of the CIA, it is not hard to push a US conspiracy story. I reckon I could get people to believe Big Bird is the president with enough time. I am not after how the US would hide such a thing in the US, I am unable to understand how the rest of the world is kept in the dark, or why they would agree to say nothing.

I've seen this letter elsewhere, and I believe it's legit. Whether or not they have anything, they won't say.

"As regards to this subject matter, mere existence or non-existence is currently and properly classified per Executive Order and exempt from any mandatory disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act because it would reveal defence capability or lack thereof."

To me, that plainly means that UFO's are of definate interest to them.

I think UFO's are of interest to most of the world. As is anything that falls from space. They could well be an unlimited energy source, and Oil is where you want to watch your back. That is a place where conspiracy and underhanded deals do go on.

However, if I am understand your post, it still is based on America and American soil. If the Youtube clip does have something relevant to this again, why do all the other Governments in the world, particularly the ones that do not like America, keep quiet? The US cannot hide interstellar traffic. Billions of eyes are trained on space at any one moment. If ET is visiting the US, then you can bet rags to riches that China, Vietnam, the Middle East, France, and India all know it too. Why would they care about any secret programs America has going on, and why would they not share such information with the rest of the world, as they do when arms treaties are contravened?

How does this work outside of America, when everyone must know if America has these visitors? Even amateur astronomers would know if spaceships were visiting the US, yet not one UFO in history has been tracked leaving via, or entering the atmosphere via space. How can this be? The X37B was tracked by amateur astronomers, and the last two Jupiter strikes were seen by amateurs who reported this to NASA, who were then able to confirm this. With such watchful eyes on the heavens, how are we missing all the action?

Cheers.

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He said things like that many times, and so did von Braun--who was originally inspired by Oberth and regarded him as a mentor on rockets and space travel.

As for what these guys knew, they certainly talked like they knew a great deal, bit did not reveal everything to the public.

He did say things like this very often, but from what I understand, he came up with everything in his head. He plainly states that Aliens are his thesis, and for all I know, he might be spot on, but I do not think the information indicates he had first hand knowledge.

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He did say things like this very often, but from what I understand, he came up with everything in his head. He plainly states that Aliens are his thesis, and for all I know, he might be spot on, but I do not think the information indicates he had first hand knowledge.

I'm not sure what else they could have said to indicate that they did indeed have firsthand knowledge of ETs. All of these German scientists seemed to have that.

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Except when he said something different about them, especially when the military repeatedly denied that the saucers were theirs or even that they had any idea what they were.

He does indicate in that memo that he does think the ones that created the historical moment were indeed ours. That was what Boon was referring to I am pretty sure. The inspiration of that first moment.

Certainly Gen. Twining and friends claimed that they weren't any secret projects of ours, although perhaps such things might be developed in time with a very intensive and expensive effort,

No, indeed, he did want to know more though. But I am not sure what that tells us exactly.

Did such an effort take place? Yes, we know they were working on their own flying saucers, even if they weren't nearly as good as the originals.

Agreed, I think more is yet to come to light, and I would not be at all surprised to find the CIA had a hand in it, but those efforts only culminated in mirth :D Nice change with so many of the CIA efforts ending in much worse. If we look at the Avrocar. But that was not nearly as ambitious for the plans to have avro ambulances and an avro in every garage. I think they were certainly biting of more than they could chew at the time.

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I'm not sure what else they could have said to indicate that they did indeed have firsthand knowledge of ETs. All of these German scientists seemed to have that.

I just do not think he would be calling Aliens his thesis if he was sure.

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Agreed, I think more is yet to come to light, and I would not be at all surprised to find the CIA had a hand in it, but those efforts only culminated in mirth :D Nice change with so many of the CIA efforts ending in much worse. If we look at the Avrocar. But that was not nearly as ambitious for the plans to have avro ambulances and an avro in every garage. I think they were certainly biting of more than they could chew at the time.

So it was made to appear, with films of a flying saucer that could hardly lift off the ground, but it was hardly the only one they built.

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I just do not think he would be calling Aliens his thesis if he was sure.

Oberth and von Braun said a lot more than that over the years, including the fact that some ETs seemed to be interfering with the US space program.

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Not following where you are going with this.

Do you think it is more likely that an alien civilisation also came up with the exact same design and crossed space within it, or transported it here, to explore the earth with it? Or do you have another scenario in mind?

Does it not seem astoundingly co-incidental that Arnold's drawing is so amazingly similar to the prototypes?

That there's very little actual proof (i.e. I don't think there's any) that the USAAF did in fact actually fly the Ho 229, let alone fly around big formations of them a long way from the base of the company they'd contracted to evaluate them. Northrop (it's worth noting) developed their flying wings quite independently of the Horten designs; but only two XB-35, one YB-35 and two Yb-49 were actually flown, and never at the same time. So using a pure process of rationality, that would seem to make it, at the very least, highly unlikely that it would have been either the Ho 229 or any of the Northrops, would it not? Any speculation about some other secret design that was flown in quanitity, but was then dropped and no information about it has ever leaked out publicly, would seem to be very fanciful, and as we all know, we do not deal in fanciful speculation around here.

:-S

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Yes 747, all good points. Just as good now as when we last discussed the similarities between the Horten Wing and Arnold's sighting.

Hopefully you noticed that I didn't say that Arnold definitely saw some Ho-229s and I merely pointed out the striking similarities. Perhaps a more likely aircraft is the YB-35? The initial YB-35 flight did take place a full year before Arnold's sighting after all. Here's a picture of 9 of them all lined up... though I don't know when exactly this photo was taken...

YB49-9_300.jpg

Coincidence that Arnold saw 9 as well? Yeah, probably eh? But then again, who really knows for sure?

Cheers 747 :)

That looks like the YB-35 line at Northrop, laid up waiting for jet conversion (which except for two never happened).

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That there's very little actual proof (i.e. I don't think there's any) that the USAAF did in fact actually fly the Ho 229, let alone fly around big formations of them a long way from the base of the company they'd contracted to evaluate them. Northrop (it's worth noting) developed their flying wings quite independently of the Horten designs; but only two XB-35, one YB-35 and two Yb-49 were actually flown, and never at the same time. So using a pure process of rationality, that would seem to make it, at the very least, highly unlikely that it would have been either the Ho 229 or any of the Northrops, would it not? Any speculation about some other secret design that was flown in quanitity, but was then dropped and no information about it has ever leaked out publicly, would seem to be very fanciful, and as we all know, we do not deal in fanciful speculation around here.

:-S

I am not understanding where the fanciful speculation exists. As far as I can tell if you have not been personally handed a document with the flight path on it, then you refuse to believe it exists? How long do you think development of this style of Aircraft lasted, and how many countries do you think were working on this flying wing design?

Considering R& D, espionage and the current tensions due to WWII it does not seem impossible to me that a trial run happened without being recorded. That is not fanciful in any may shape or form, then Boon puts up a pic of 9 in a row at once, as per Arnold description?

Not really wanding into woo woo land is it? I am not sure I would call suggesting a flying wing a speculation, but rather a hypothesis based upon the meaning of the words.

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I am not understanding where the fanciful speculation exists.

That there may have been large formations of aircraft flying about that only one or two examples were known to have ever flown. That seems rather fanciful to me.

If this design had been evaulated, either by the Americans or anybody else, in the late 1940s, it would have been public knowledge long before now. There'd be absolutely no reason to keep the very existence of it secret still, unless we really do want to start supposing "secret" air forces and so on, which really is just as fanciful as supposing the occasional visit from extraterrestrials.

How long do you think development of this style of Aircraft lasted, and how many countries do you think were working on this flying wing design?

See above; any experimental aircraft that may have been flying in the late 1940s would be public knowledge long before now, unless we really do want to start supposing "secret" air forces and so on, which really is just as fanciful as supposing the occasional visit from extraterrestrials.

Considering R& D, espionage and the current tensions due to WWII it does not seem impossible to me that a trial run happened without being recorded. That is not fanciful in any may shape or form,

I'm afraid it is, almost as fancful as an unofficial display by the CAF Snowbirds as an explanation for the Phonix Lights .

The point is not that a trial run may have happened without being recorded, it's that that number of that type of aircraft were never in the air at the same time, and what test flights there were were conducted either near to the factory in California, or from secure USAAF locations, for the exact reason that they wouldn't want any unauthorised observations of them.

then Boon puts up a pic of 9 in a row at once, as per Arnold description?

As observed above, those are the uncompleted YB-35s lined up outside the Northrop factory, waiting scrapping.

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Hi Syncronomy

Thank you for the clip, but I do not have access to Youtube. Could I please trouble you for a brief synopsis?

I do not think I worded myself properly. With the history of the CIA, it is not hard to push a US conspiracy story. I reckon I could get people to believe Big Bird is the president with enough time. I am not after how the US would hide such a thing in the US, I am unable to understand how the rest of the world is kept in the dark, or why they would agree to say nothing.

The youtube link is to James Fox's movie "Out of the Blue". If you haven't seen it, I recommend you do. If you can't access youtube it would be worth your while to rent the movie. Can you not set parental control on your home computer so your kids can't view it but you can? IIRC correctly restricting their access was your concern.

Anyway, it's a good movie giving a rundown on the current concerns about UFO's and the secrecy surrounding their existence.

I believe that the rest of the world (outside) US either has the same knowledge/contact with ET's/UFO's or they don't. If they do, they say nothing and if they have no contact, they still say nothing in either case it gives the appearance that they do. In other words they just apply same/similar secrecy rules as does the US. It's the old "keep them guessing" game in the interest of national security.

Hi Syncronomy

I think UFO's are of interest to most of the world. As is anything that falls from space. They could well be an unlimited energy source, and Oil is where you want to watch your back. That is a place where conspiracy and underhanded deals do go on.

However, if I am understand your post, it still is based on America and American soil. If the Youtube clip does have something relevant to this again, why do all the other Governments in the world, particularly the ones that do not like America, keep quiet? The US cannot hide interstellar traffic. Billions of eyes are trained on space at any one moment. If ET is visiting the US, then you can bet rags to riches that China, Vietnam, the Middle East, France, and India all know it too. Why would they care about any secret programs America has going on, and why would they not share such information with the rest of the world, as they do when arms treaties are contravened?

How does this work outside of America, when everyone must know if America has these visitors? Even amateur astronomers would know if spaceships were visiting the US, yet not one UFO in history has been tracked leaving via, or entering the atmosphere via space. How can this be? The X37B was tracked by amateur astronomers, and the last two Jupiter strikes were seen by amateurs who reported this to NASA, who were then able to confirm this. With such watchful eyes on the heavens, how are we missing all the action?

Cheers.

I sort of answered that above. Countries other than USA, use the same "smoke and mirrors" policy with regard to UFO's/ET's perhaps to make the US think they have the same information, whether they do or not. I think most countries would have the same agenda relating to this subject.

I agree, the skies/outer space are watched closely, however I believe that extraterrestrial vehicles may likely have some sort of "cloaking" ability. Seems there are examples of UFO appearing and disappearing sometimes and cases when witnesses see an object, but it is confirmed nothing showed up on radar. Heck, we already have quite good stealth technology ourselves.

Maybe the US or other countries have the ET's in a negotiating position. If the ET's agenda is to peacefully assimilate with mankind, perhaps the US is saying to them "If you disclose yourselves to the general public, we will reveal to them that your agenda is hostile, so you maintain contact with us only" There's a few rumors of a false flag operation in which an attack by aliens could be staged.

I know I keep referring to the USA with most of this, but I think it likely that several countries share the same agenda which gives the appearance to many that these countries are working together.

Also, it would be likely IMHO, that the perpetrators of the secrecy are quasi-government groups and private sector black-ops types in order to keep the information away from FOI requests.

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The Flying Wings had control and stability problems and one of them crashed on a test flight at Muroc, California in June 1948 killing all five crew members.

http://www.google.co...1ihjK4kMyKsDWSQ

Another one crashed on take-off in 1950.

All of the remaining ones were cut up and sold for scrap, although it's too bad that they didn't even save one for a museum or something.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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At any rate, the first jet-powered Flying Wing was tested in October 1947 so it could not have been what Arnold saw in June.

Secretary of the Air Force Stuart Symington ordered the cancellation of all flying wing programs in 1950, and refused to make even one of them available to the Smithsonian museum.

In many ways it was a very impressive aircraft for its time, but the whole program seems to have been dogged by accidents and mishaps, and some people even suspected sabotage.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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The Flying Wings had control and stability problems and one of them crashed on a test flight at Muroc, California in June 1948 killing all five crew members.

http://www.google.co...1ihjK4kMyKsDWSQ

Another one crashed on take-off in 1950.

All of the remaining ones were cut up and sold for scrap, although it's too bad that they didn't even save one for a museum or something.

The flying wing design at low speed is very unstable aerodynamically. I spent many of my younger years building and flying r/c planes. I toyed around with flying wings for quite a while as did other club members. They very easily fall prey to the dreaded flat spin (like a frizbee) in low speed turns or approach/landing.

Too much wing plus not enough tail.

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The flying wing design at low speed is very unstable aerodynamically. I spent many of my younger years building and flying r/c planes. I toyed around with flying wings for quite a while as did other club members. They very easily fall prey to the dreaded flat spin (like a frizbee) in low speed turns or approach/landing.

Too much wing plus not enough tail.

That was a big problem with the early flying saucer designs, too, the tendency to flip over because they had no tail or stabilizer.

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The flying wing design at low speed is very unstable aerodynamically. I spent many of my younger years building and flying r/c planes. I toyed around with flying wings for quite a while as did other club members. They very easily fall prey to the dreaded flat spin (like a frizbee) in low speed turns or approach/landing.

Too much wing plus not enough tail.

Seems rather consistent with Arnold's description though doesn't it? Arnold said "the objects weaved from side to side."

Might be expected in a somewhat unstable design I think.

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That looks like the YB-35 line at Northrop, laid up waiting for jet conversion (which except for two never happened).

Yes, however we are assuming that these may have never flown, or that others may not have. Is it reasonable to assume that every flight was logged? One would hope so and could legitimately expect them to be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were.

And remember, I'm not claiming this aircraft was definitely what was observed. I just can't shake the striking similarities between Arnold's description and the flying wing designs that were in development around the same time. Seems a dubious coincidence if that's all it is.

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The first jet version of the flying wing was tested in California on October 21, 1947, so that could not have been what Arnold saw in Washington state in June.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insidesocal.com%2Fhistory%2F2011%2F04%2Fnorthrops-flying-wing.html&ei=dWOFUL6cJIL09gS-v4GoCg&usg=AFQjCNF5ckvP-BZCWKIk8esDRpVmdKs7bw&sig2=NLppkfZoiGMDuJVEgxW1lA

The earlier version with the four piston engines was test flown in California in June 1946, although Arnold did not report seeing engines and propellers like this on his UFO. I don't know that any of them ever were being flown in Washington state in any case.

northrop_xb-35.jpg

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The first jet version of the flying wing was tested in California on October 21, 1947, so that could not have been what Arnold saw in Washington state in June.

http://www.google.co...oiGMDuJVEgxW1lA

That's not entirely true McG. The Ho-229 used a Junkers Jumo 004, and it's first test flight was February 2, 1945... albeit this took place in Oranienburg Germany, nowhere near Washington. The point this establishes is that the concept of putting a jet engine into a flying wing design was around well before Arnold's sighting.

That said, nobody I'm aware of is claiming that the aircraft observed had to be jet powered.

The earlier version with the four piston engines was test flown in California in June 1946, although Arnold did not report seeing engines and propellers like this on his UFO. I don't know that any of them ever were being flown in Washington state in any case.

northrop_xb-35.jpg

Depending on the distance would it be expected to see the propellers in the first place? Especially if one is anticipating a propeller to be at the front of the aircraft instead of at the rear?

I'm afraid the door isn't completely closed on the idea that he could have seen some kind of flying wing. I'm not saying that's definitely what he saw, but these points you are raising don't suffice to rule it out.

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Seems rather consistent with Arnold's description though doesn't it? Arnold said "the objects weaved from side to side."

Might be expected in a somewhat unstable design I think.

All aircraft's center of gravity changes with airspeed, and without a tail it's a b**** to correct.

I know the Concorde as it shifted to supersonic and back it had the ability to shift fuel rapidly from forward to aft tanks and vice versa within the wings.

It was highly unstable at low speed necessitating a severe angle of attack on landing approach. The design had to incorporate the dropping nose cone so the pilots could see where they were going since the angle was so steep.

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Seems rather consistent with Arnold's description though doesn't it? Arnold said "the objects weaved from side to side."

Might be expected in a somewhat unstable design I think.

There were nine of them. There were only ever two of the Northrops flying at any one time, and with all the problems as mentioned, they never went that far from the test bases at either Northrops' factory or at Muroc, so why would they go on a sightseeing trip to the Cascade Mountains? And so far as I can ascertain*, the Hortens were never actually flown in the US; and certainly not nine of them flying around in formation. Therefore, I think the "secret Flying Wing aircraft" theory can be fairly safely put to bed.

* word of the day

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