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Zeta Reticulum

[Merged]Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon

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Even if...we would want a ''physical', scientifical proof about all of this, how could we find physical/scientifical proofs when some of the brightest mind affirm that we only know what's driving 4% of the universe? Only one thing is sure, is that we know so little about our universe.

We don't know everything, therefore pixies live in my garden.

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Uuuuuuuu. Mabey because some people are hurt? Are you suggesting the experience is damageing, but not the fact of being... You know.. Near death?

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html

As a neurosurgeon, I did not believe in the phenomenon of near-death experiences. I grew up in a scientific world, the son of a neurosurgeon. I followed my father’s path and became an academic neurosurgeon, teaching at Harvard Medical School and other universities. I understand what happens to the brain when people are near death, and I had always believed there were good scientific explanations for the heavenly out-of-body journeys described by those who narrowly escaped death.

There is no scientific explanation for the fact that while my body lay in coma, my mind—my conscious, inner self—was alive and well. While the neurons of my cortex were stunned to complete inactivity by the bacteria that had attacked them, my brain-free consciousness journeyed to another, larger dimension of the universe: a dimension I’d never dreamed existed and which the old, pre-coma me would have been more than happy to explain was a simple impossibility.

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http://www.thedailyb...-afterlife.html

As a neurosurgeon, I did not believe in the phenomenon of near-death experiences. I grew up in a scientific world, the son of a neurosurgeon. I followed my father’s path and became an academic neurosurgeon, teaching at Harvard Medical School and other universities. I understand what happens to the brain when people are near death, and I had always believed there were good scientific explanations for the heavenly out-of-body journeys described by those who narrowly escaped death.

There is no scientific explanation for the fact that while my body lay in coma, my mind—my conscious, inner self—was alive and well. While the neurons of my cortex were stunned to complete inactivity by the bacteria that had attacked them, my brain-free consciousness journeyed to another, larger dimension of the universe: a dimension I’d never dreamed existed and which the old, pre-coma me would have been more than happy to explain was a simple impossibility.

I am glad you posted this quote because I think it gets to the heart of the matter. He is not thinking like a scientist at all, he is forming his opinion through a logical fallacy. Have you ever fallen asleep for just a few minutes and had a seemingly long and vivid dream? It is very possible that all this happened either while his mind was going into the coma or coming out of it. It does not take any more time than that and there lies the problem with the doctor's assumption.

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Uuuuuuuu. Mabey because some people are hurt? Are you suggesting the experience is damageing, but not the fact of being... You know.. Near death?

You're having trouble understanding me.

I am concluding that you are suggesting a spiritual experience causes braindamage, because the damage is there and it happens to be the part of the brain which is responsible for the sense of the body in space. What a coincidence eh. So why is there a correlation between the brain damage and the "spiritual experience"? Either the damage causes the experience OR the experience causes the damage. You seem to be advocating the latter.

And even more of a coincidence: When scientists influence the temperal lobe (the same part that is reported as malfunctioning/damaged when experiencing an OBE or afterlife trip) with a magnet, ppl suddenly get the feeling they have the exact same experience. Why would that be?

Because the experience in itself is an illusion, that is why.

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I think you thought I was saying something I wasn't. Do you have a source for such a procedure?

Under that logic, if a scientist influenced your brain to make your foot feel hot, does that mean that heat is an illusion?

What if Somone pumps you full of LSD in a room with music about cookies, and all you can do is see cookies. The existence of cookies are now in question right?

If your leg is cut off, but your brain still thinks its there, we now question the existence of leggs because it would apear they are just mental constructs. Right?

As I have already pointed out to you, it is fallacious to corolate an artificial stimulation of an experience to the reality behind the natural stimulation of it. Quit obviously for us to retain an experience we must have the capacity to experience it. Stimulating this capacity then saying the experience is an illusion flys in the face of common sense.

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Well, think of it this way, sometimes you dream, just lying in bed on a normal night, however when you're dieing, that's kind of a big deal to your body. Expect some weird things to be going on, because you've never experienced it before and essentially your body has been preparing for it since the day you were conceived.

An NDE is most likely nothing but a result of chemical reactions in the brain, coupled with things such as obvious trauma and shock. The body prepared for death yet slips past the grips and creates a somewhat lifelike dream you could say, as a result of hallucinogens.

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I'm still reading the thread but was interested by science vs spiritualism aspects which have crept in. I agree with seeker on one point, it's the blind leading blind!

Very few people here are able to think critically, ie, science fundamentalist takes the scientists words as gospel, the religious fundamentalist takes his preachers words as gospel! Neither have the capacity to think critically, because the science fundamentalist does not like to question the scientists thesis/theory/observations etc and the religious fundamentalist does the same!

Hence why you get this confrontation between materialists(science fundamentalists) and religious/spiritual zealots. The latter in some cases are totally anti science :(

If both groups understood this, without actually bringing baggage ie the materialist premise or spiritualist premises before they actually comment. If they understood that science only deals with the physical thats it's scope and limitation, if science tries to figure put OBE and NDE's which are actually personal subjective spiritual experiences, the fact it's spiritual, means it's anti matter, anti physical, hence beyond it's scope to deal with subject all on it's own!

Spiritualists trying to prove it by science need to realise that something anti physical non material is beyond sciences scope, the only thing you can do is use what little scientific evidence there is if any in conjunction with other standards of knowledge and present a case for it!

Neither side can prove it empirically nor can either side prove empirically that there is no afterlife or not!

As for those who think afterlife is illogical, have no idea about the arguments for it being logical!

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Not at all, it is indicative of hallucinations that have been labeled as a spirit world.

What interests me most about NDEs is that individuals from various religions have all claimed to have seen their "God" as they are going through the experience. For example, the Egyptians experienced Anubis, Muslims experience Allah, Hindus experience Vishnu, etc. It is all entirely psychological, nothing more and nothing less. It is a neurological response to make death more comforting for the individual experiencing it.

Which Muslims said they saw Allah? Something like that would be contrary to their faith. No one will see gods face or god but the believers on the final day and judgement. The non believers at this point will still not see their maker even after judgement passed, that will be tougher to take than punishment itself. Thats an Islamic stance, so I'm intrigued which Muslims saw Allah?

I understand other faiths go on about seeing their gods etc but you can't lump them all together, it's not an academic thing to do is it?

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How do the neurological workings of the brain function when a person is deemed clinically dead? Meaning the brain is dead, starved of the elements it needs to function.

So when the people have this experience, how does the brain project these hallucinatory images to the person? Who or what is perceiving the hallucination?

For example we know all our senses are a result of electrical impulses being translated by the brain which in turn tells you what's happening. So in this context how is the brain creating this hallucination when it's in total isolation from all the elements?

When you dream, they can seem just as real as what you perceive to be reality, so how do you determine which is real? For all you know the reality you believe is real, is a long dream and the when you sleep that's when you see reality (hypothetical). The reason I ask this is because according to new science when your alive and functioning, everything around you is a perception transmitted to you via brain which is in total isolation and darkness, so what you perceive to be real can never be proven so, even by your beloved gospel of science. So what we call reality is merely a perception, it's true nature unknown to us. The brain which transmits this perception can be taken out chopped up and studied, it to is a part of the same physical world. The question then is, who is the perceiver of the perception and all perceptions and illusions are created

:)

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How do the neurological workings of the brain function when a person is deemed clinically dead? Meaning the brain is dead, starved of the elements it needs to function.

No, it does not mean that the brain is dead at all. It just means that the blood has stopped circulating, and the heart has stopped beating.

So when the people have this experience, how does the brain project these hallucinatory images to the person? Who or what is perceiving the hallucination?

Simply due to the surge of chemicals as the brain is dying. Perception stems from the mind, so... the mind would be perceiving these images.

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i am with lion. i dont see how NDEs can be scientifically explained if all electrical impulses have stopped.

what we have here is a bunch of opinions. the facts say that NDEs have happened when the person was electrically dead.

any other explanation is a bunch of blewey and skeptical hogwash.

you non believers and atheists are right. there is no God and no afterlife, for you at least. what if what we believe shapes how we perceive the afterlife? if so then you guys wont have one, which means this life is nothing to you. do whatever you please, it wont matter after all.

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No, it does not mean that the brain is dead at all. It just means that the blood has stopped circulating, and the heart has stopped beating.

due to the surge of chemicals as the brain is dying. Perception stems from the mind, so... the mind would be perceiving these images.

what chemicals. you seem to be a doctor. and how do you know perception stems from the mind. no one has pinned that down yet.

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Simply due to the surge of chemicals as the brain is dying. Perception stems from the mind, so... the mind would be perceiving these images.

Still addressing your opinions I see, why don't you address the arguments. That's the best way to eradicate spirituality ;)

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I think you thought I was saying something I wasn't. Do you have a source for such a procedure?

Under that logic, if a scientist influenced your brain to make your foot feel hot, does that mean that heat is an illusion?

What if Somone pumps you full of LSD in a room with music about cookies, and all you can do is see cookies. The existence of cookies are now in question right?

If your leg is cut off, but your brain still thinks its there, we now question the existence of leggs because it would apear they are just mental constructs. Right?

As I have already pointed out to you, it is fallacious to corolate an artificial stimulation of an experience to the reality behind the natural stimulation of it. Quit obviously for us to retain an experience we must have the capacity to experience it. Stimulating this capacity then saying the experience is an illusion flys in the face of common sense.

Pfff, no. You're still making faulty analogies so it's obvious i can not explain it to you. So nevermind.

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what chemicals. you seem to be a doctor. and how do you know perception stems from the mind. no one has pinned that down yet.

Do the research yourself, friend.

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I have read several books about life after death and doesn't it seem to be more than a coincidence that all these people have basically the same experience??? How could this many people hallucinate the same thing? That in itself is pretty convincing to me!! A lot of the stories I have read were of children that died....not just in a coma but actually had their hearts stop.....and children are much more honest than adults are and they all say the same thing and have the same experience!!! They all can tell you things that happen while they are experiencing this... of things that go on in different rooms and places....how could they possibly know these things? Also there are the people who believe in spirits that have visited them or of ghosts in general.....if there is no life after death...then how do you explain this phenomena? I recently read of a doctor/scientist who has pinned down where the soul actually lives in our brain....no ....there is way more than what we understand....and life after death is real!! We will all know the truth at some point in our life..there is much more than what we understand now!! To experience a real NDE...you actually have to die....and be brought or sent back....not just come close to dying!!!

BTW...a true LSD experience is very spiritual!!! and it isnt so much what you see as what you feel and know to be true....why do you think the great spiritual leaders of tribes take mescal in their trips to the spirit realm?

FYI...if you do not believe in good and evil....you are only fooling yourself!!!

Edited by harleyblueswoman

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I have read several books about life after death and doesn't it seem to be more than a coincidence that all these people have basically the same experience??? How could this many people hallucinate the same thing? That in itself is pretty convincing to me!!

It simply means we all have brains, and therefore have similar experiences when the brains shut down. Maybe there is a Yahweh / Allah / Kali / Zeus / Thor or whatever god waiting for us, but these "near death experiences" are no proof of that. Anybody with even half a brain should understand that, even the brain surgeon of this article.

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All explanations are pretentious. Without experience, a posteriori, nothing can be explained sufficiently.

Of course, one will inevitably say, "Then God must exist because someone must have experienced him enough to draft an explanation of him" yadda...

In which case I would say that all religions must be flawed; hence there are sooo many propagating a means to "salvation" or the like.

I wouldn't venture to say that one religion is absolutely correct because it appears it has not been experienced in a way explainable.

All things have been ordered and calculated by some force outside of our understanding. Even randomness, while calculable, can lead to rare and chance occurrences that defy calculation. While this does not invoke the necessity of metaphysics, i.e. a supreme being intervened; the cold hard fact is that all things are offspring of probability. This being the foundation of my arguement, I return to my earlier statement that all explanations are pretentious without prior exposure or experience to validate said experience.

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Which Muslims said they saw Allah? Something like that would be contrary to their faith. No one will see gods face or god but the believers on the final day and judgement. The non believers at this point will still not see their maker even after judgement passed, that will be tougher to take than punishment itself. Thats an Islamic stance, so I'm intrigued which Muslims saw Allah?

I understand other faiths go on about seeing their gods etc but you can't lump them all together, it's not an academic thing to do is it?

I agree. A muslim who claims he has seen Allah would be killed pretty quickly by his wonderful co-believers. As you correctly said, it is stupid to lump all religions together.

If there is one thing that you can say about all of them is that they are irrational belief systems. But the contents are as different as you can get, from the ultra-pacifist Jain religion to the Jihad-obsessed islam and from polytheistic Hinduism to Buddhism, which does not even have one god.

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At the very heart of pretty much all religion are where they originate from. They are highly embellished and out of sequence near death experiences, death bed visions, mystical and transcendental experiences, and transcendental experiences from psyllocybin, mushrooms, ergot on rye, peyote, ayahuasca, licking toads, etc. These stories get told and retold and embellished and they change to fit the culture they originate from but at the heart of all these religions are common experiences that are still happening today.

Edited by Artaxerxes

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There is a connection between NDE's and quantum physics and the holographic universe that has never been adequately explained away to me. Near death experiencers routinely describe their experiences in terms that can only be called "holographic" and they also say things that seem to parallel things I've read about quantum physics. I find that very evidential. There is no way that a housewife from Kansas or an uneducated truck driver from South Georgia would know or understand anything about quantum physics or the holographic nature of the universe yet they routinely come back after their experiences and describe them in terms that can only be called "holographic."

People who have NDE's routinely talk about overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness, feeling like they are everywhere in the universe at once, time and space not existing, buildings that are "made out of knowledge", 360 degree vision, seeing colors they've never seen before, hearing sounds that they haven't heard in this physical universe, and during the life review seeing their whole lives flash by in an instant (bolus of information)and feeling the emotions and feelings of the people they interacted with (the life review is a holographic experience par excellence), and how the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and feeling the feelings and hearing the thoughts of the people they interacted with. I find these things to be very evidential because it parallels things I've read about in popular physics books.

This explains why it is that so many near death experiencers say that the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and how it could be "realer than real" or "more consciousness than normal." Near death experiencers also say that it will feel even more real to us than this side does. The quote below explains why or how this is possible.

"Or, to put it another way, a holographic universe is blurry," says Hogan. This is good news for anyone trying to probe the smallest unit of space-time. ...

http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2010/02/19/the-holographic-universe-when-it-pays-to-be-first/

There is quite a bit of evidence from physics and near death experiences that our so called physical universe is some kind of strange holographic projection. The implications of this are enormous.

Our Universe may be a giant hologram (1 page)

http://www.inquisitr.com/15460/scientists-claim-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram/

The Universe as a hologram (about 5 or 6 pages):

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

Testing the holographic universe

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2010/10/20/fermilab-scientists-to-test-hypothesis-of-holographic-universe/

If you read Mark Horton's NDE and the parallels with the holographic universe theory become obvious:

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation, Dr. Oswald Harding.

http://www.amazon.com/Near-Death-Experience-Holographic-Explanation/dp/9768202092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255530488&sr=1-1

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Pfff, no. You're still making faulty analogies so it's obvious i can not explain it to you. So nevermind.

yes, I understand that you CAN'T explain it to me. You are under fallacious belief that because a doctor can stimulate an expierience that that some how says something about the nature of the experience itself. Quite obviously it dosnt.

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You are under fallacious belief that because a doctor can stimulate an expierience that that some how says something about the nature of the experience itself. Quite obviously it dosnt.

For someone who is not emotionally invested in the idea that NDEs are spiritual, it is at least fairly suggestive.

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