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Zeta Reticulum

[Merged]Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon

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I have no problem at all with the idea that ketamine experiences and NDE's and much more can open the gates of heaven, whatever causes people to go out of themselves will correspondingly have the void filled by the 'other world'.....the kingdom of heaven is within you, God is near at hand. The idea that a chemical imbalance cannot give rise to a genuine experience of the divine is an assumption that ought to be put on hold, imo. Our customary mode of mentation is prohibitive of such experiences, transcendence as the mystics tell us, requires only that we go out of ourselves, in order to be filled by that which we only dimly perceive otherwise.

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Well then Mabey if you had you might be able to address my arguments directly instead of generally. The cause of the NDE/OBEs is obvious. Trauma and altered states of conciousness. I don't even need ketamine, I can do it with meditation. Ill post one of the arguments one more time just for you. It's vastly illogical to invalidate what an NDE is or isn't while you assume the conclusion.

---There is no such thing as a spiritual experience, because there is no such thing as spiritual----

This is not a logical argument.

Also any and all attempts to invalidate what an NDE is or isn't by sugesting that altering brain chemistry makes it purely a physical experience is a completely irrelevant argument. As I have stated for the umteenth time, this argument is purely assuming that the brain is a producer of conciousness while the typical spiritual inturpretation is the the brain is a receiver of it. any sort of monkeying with the brain will produce oddities wether a receiver or producer, so your ketamine example or any other induction method is not evidence for anything because it's evidence for both assumptions.

Furthermore, I have looked and looked, and there is not a single record of a ketamine experience nearly as elaborate and detailed as the stereo typical NDEs. At most superficial experiences. If you have an account please post it. I'd love to see it. Even DMT experiences have their own twist to them and do not really resemble the standard progression of NDEs

Furthermore x 2, the corolation between induceing an experience, then saying the experience doesn't exist in reality is ludacrress. A brain surgeon can probably make you experience your feet being hot, but that does not mean heat does not exist, it only means that a doctor can monkey with your preceptions. The natural state of the perception is not in question.

Every single argument skeptics have to invalidate the spiritual nature of NDEs/OBEs does not hold up to real scrutinty. It's mostly just shaking a stick at the moon.

First let me make you aware that you are not imparting pearls of wisdom all you are doing is rehashing an already over rehashed

subject and how anyone can suggest that that an NDE somehow gives us a glimpse of an afterlife and then talks of logic in the same breath beats me.

What makes you the arbiter on what is relevant on the subject

You make sweeping statements telling us you have read EVERY report on the drug induced and found them wanting and won't stand scrutiny .I suggest you carry on looking at the reports and forget the spiritual clap trap

fullywired

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First let me make you aware that you are not imparting pearls of wisdom all you are doing is rehashing an already over rehashed

subject and how anyone can suggest that that an NDE somehow gives us a glimpse of an afterlife and then talks of logic in the same breath beats me.

What makes you the arbiter on what is relevant on the subject

You make sweeping statements telling us you have read EVERY report on the drug induced and found them wanting and won't stand scrutiny .I suggest you carry on looking at the reports and forget the spiritual clap trap

fullywired

If by "rehashing", you mean you spewing more logical fallcies and ignoring actual arguments, then yes i would have to agree with you. How anyone can continue to suggest a person is being illogical while engrossed in fallacys is also a curiosity for me. Here let me help:

http://www.amazon.co...i/dp/0471799416

I did not make any sweeping statements, I have looked and i havnt seen any ketamin experiences that would mimic typical NDEs...Have you? By all means share.

Im not an arbiter, I made several arguments to show that induced expereinces, weather ketamine or some other method, are irrelvent for very specific reasons. Instead of adressing the argument you choose to ridicule ( apeal to ridicule), Say im trying to be an arbiter of what is relevent and what is not (Straw man), I have not read EVERY roport, i was asking for the one you read (another straw man), "spiritual clap clap", (yet another apeal to ridicule).

Im sorry, i dont you think you have an argument to opose mine. Obviously not a logical one anyway. An Opinion....sure.... a logical oposing arguments....Nop. But thats right, you are a veteren at this subject, and you dont feel like rehashing it even though all you yourself have presented is simple parroting, full of grevious logic. OOOOKKKKKK :D :D

:D

Edited by Seeker79

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If by "rehashing", you mean you spewing more logical fallcies and ignoring actual arguments, then yes i would have to agree with you. How anyone can continue to suggest a person is being illogical while engrossed in fallacys is also a curiosity for me. Here let me help:

http://www.amazon.co...i/dp/0471799416

I did not make any sweeping statements, I have looked and i havnt seen any ketamin experiences that would mimic typical NDEs...Have you? By all means share.

Im not an arbiter, I made several arguments to show that induced expereinces, weather ketamine or some other method, are irrelvent for very specific reasons. Instead of adressing the argument you choose to ridicule ( apeal to ridicule), Say im trying to be an arbiter of what is relevent and what is not (Straw man), I have not read EVERY roport, i was asking for the one you read (another straw man), "spiritual clap clap", (yet another apeal to ridicule).

Im sorry, i dont you think you have an argument to opose mine. Obviously not a logical one anyway. An Opinion....sure.... a logical oposing arguments....Nop. But thats right, you are a veteren at this subject, and you dont feel like rehashing it even though all you yourself have presented is simple parroting, full of grevious logic. OOOOKKKKKK :D :D

:D

Now don't loose your cool just because people don't agree with you,if you can't stand criticism try posting in the beliefs section,when you post in this section you invite skepticism .and to say someone is ridiculing the argument I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you use the word ridiculous to counter the arguments.I parroted nothing, I merely posted an article from reliable sources ,no less than Edinburgh University, Cambridge and New York State university but you want us to disregard these learned bodies and accept your version ,well I hope you don't mind but I will stick with the more educated version

fullywired

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How about this for immortality...

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, there is a finite amount of energy in the Universe. Therefore what makes me, me, will exist forever. Time can be portrayed as infinite, so hopefully what makes me, me will assemble again some time in the future, as per the blind watchmaker principle. Since I can only recollect what happens during consciousness, my memories will be lost (as a consequence of 'death') but my consciousness will be forever enduring as I live each 'episode' in my other respective 'lives'.

So a theory on immortality without mentioning God...

A misunderstanding of the term energy. Energy isn't conscious, its the potential of a system to do work.

http://physics.about.com/od/glossary/g/energy.htm

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Now don't loose your cool just because people don't agree with you,if you can't stand criticism try posting in the beliefs section,when you post in this section you invite skepticism .and to say someone is ridiculing the argument I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you use the word ridiculous to counter the arguments.I parroted nothing, I merely posted an article from reliable sources ,no less than Edinburgh University, Cambridge and New York State university but you want us to disregard these learned bodies and accept your version ,well I hope you don't mind but I will stick with the more educated version

fullywired

You did not see the big smile faces did you? I enjoy these discussions otherwise I would not participate. You are still engrossed in it. this time apeals to authority with an ad homonym thrown in.

If you can understand that, you will understand my response to your articles.

But please please please do not continue to to suggest other people are illogical when you yourself don't seem to even understand the concept. I gave you a resource. If you read it, you might be able to critically look at your own "educated" sources.

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.

But please please please do not continue to to suggest other people are illogical when you yourself don't seem to even understand the concept. I gave you a resource. If you read it, you might be able to critically look at your own "educated" sources.

I have no intention of entering a slanging match with you about what is logical and what is not but I will take the experts view on the matter which coincides with my own musings and leave you to your own views however mistaken they are

May all your NDEs be happy ones :lol:

fullywired

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I have no intention of entering a slanging match with you about what is logical and what is not but I will take the experts view on the matter which coincides with my own musings and leave you to your own views however mistaken they are

May all your NDEs be happy ones :lol:

fullywired

Actually I make a habit not to even mention logic unless the other person suggest I or my viewpoint is illogical. I don't press that button unless someone else wants to go there. You continue to do that I'm sure there are many "experts" on NDEs the correspond with with both view points. This thread started about a brain surgeon, did it not? And as long as you trust things that correspond with your own musings then I'm sure you will have quit the ability to determin who is mistaken and who is not. Fortunately, we do have ways to critically analyze arguments and wade through bias rhetoric.

And I am certain that yours will be aswell. You seem pretty genuine, honest, and well meaning so I'm sure upon death you will be pleasantly surprised, and if I can I'll drop in and say I told you so. :D :D :D

Edited by Seeker79

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I have long since quit caring what skeptics believe or say. I don't even bother to read what they write. If they have decided that they don't believe.... it is their loss. If they want to go through life not believing, it is their right. I don't care. We will all find out the truth when it comes out turn to cross over, and trust me, it will come soon enough.

Life is a vapor, a mist, and we are only here for a short while. The blink of an eye compared to eternity. I will soon be 60 years old and I think back to my college years, which were the happiest time of my life, and it doesn't seem that long ago. It is difficult for me to believe it was 40 years ago. Where did the time go?

So, I just have to wait a little longer and I will have my answers. We will see who was right and who was wrong. For now it is irrelevant what anyone else espouses. What matters is what is in my own heart. Because I am the only one that has to live with myself. I am just trying to live in this world, and believing that one day I will see my mother again makes life a little easier.

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"Glimpses of Eternity". That is what we are allowed to see. Reminds me of the game "whack-a-mole" where just when you think you've got one "mole" whacked another one pops up it's head. Just when the skeptics think they've silenced Pam Reynold's NDE - Dr. Eben Alexander and Dr. Mary Neal, a neurosurgeon and an orthopedic surgeon pop up their heads and say "it's all real, I've been there!"

The skeptics have their work cut out for them. It's not one line of evidence but a whole picture puzzle of pieces that all fit together to give us a glimpse of eternity that seem to tell us that this life is not all there is.

Mediums, Near Death Experiences, death bed visions, after death communications, mystical and transcendental experiences, and yes even reincarnation stories (as much as I dislike the idea of it) all seem to tell us that our life doesn't end with the death of the physical body. So let the skeptics rant and rave. I doubt very much that they will be able to silence the other side. There will always be "glimpses of eternity" for us to ponder what lies beyond the grave.

Edited by Artaxerxes
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"Glimpses of Eternity". That is what we are allowed to see. Reminds me of the game "whack-a-mole" where just when you think you've got one "mole" whacked another one pops up it's head. Just when the skeptics think they've silenced Pam Reynold's NDE - Dr. Eben Alexander and Dr. Mary Neal, a neurosurgeon and an orthopedic surgeon pop up their heads and say "it's all real, I've been there!"

The skeptics have their work cut out for them. It's not one line of evidence but a whole picture puzzle of pieces that all fit together to give us a glimpse of eternity that seem to tell us that this life is not all there is.

Mediums, Near Death Experiences, death bed visions, after death communications, mystical and transcendental experiences, and yes even reincarnation stories (as much as I dislike the idea of it) all seem to tell us that our life doesn't end with the death of the physical body. So let the skeptics rant and rave. I doubt very much that they will be able to silence the other side. There will always be "glimpses of eternity" for us to ponder what lies beyond the grave.

Well said. There really isn't any proof or valid arguments agsinst the spiritual inturpretation of all that you mentioned, not really a shred that holds up to scrutinty. Skeptics are right to ask the questions, but getting creative and not holding themselves to the same standards that they point their skepticism at unfortunately, for most, has become the norm.

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. I'm sure upon death you will be pleasantly surprised, and if I can I'll drop in and say I told you so. :D :D :D

"Therein lies the rub" we both won't know

fullywired

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I have long since quit caring what skeptics believe or say. I don't even bother to read what they write.

.

Then what are you doing in this section?

fullywired

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"Therein lies the rub" we both won't know

fullywired

Unless you to have one of these experiences, then your last thought will be "holy ****, that seeker guy was right" then you will wink out of existence.

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Consciousness after death simply is not possible.

How do you know that...prove me?

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Well said. There really isn't any proof or valid arguments agsinst the spiritual inturpretation of all that you mentioned, not really a shred that holds up to scrutinty. Skeptics are right to ask the questions, but getting creative and not holding themselves to the same standards that they point their skepticism at unfortunately, for most, has become the norm.

It's not really about providing evidence against a point of view, it's about the quality of evidence for a belief. Some people find anecdotes convincing, others don't.

Skepticism itself requires no evidence; it should be a default position. However, if you are refuting an explanation based in spiritualism and replacing it with an explanation based in scientific materialism, you should be able to provide evidence for the latter belief. People who are invested in the former interpretation will brush-off or interpret scientific evidence to conform to their beliefs (confirmation bias) and vice-versa. Thus, these types of discussions are often futile exercises which result in little more than mounting hostility.

I think it's near worthless, in terms of adding credibility, that the near death experiencer in this case was a neuro-scientist. Doctors aren't infallible in terms of memory or judgment. I think a fairly good alternate explanation for this case is described in the following blog (also written by a neuroscientist):

http://theness.com/n...roof-of-heaven/

Edited by Cybele

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It's not really about providing evidence against a point of view, it's about the quality of evidence for a belief. Some people find anecdotes convincing, others don't.

Skepticism itself requires no evidence; it should be a default position. However, if you are refuting an explanation based in spiritualism and replacing it with an explanation based in scientific materialism, you should be able to provide evidence for the latter belief. People who are invested in the former interpretation will brush-off or interpret scientific evidence to conform to their beliefs (confirmation bias) and vice-versa. Thus, these types of discussions are often futile exercises which result in little more than mounting hostility.

I think it's near worthless, in terms of adding credibility, that the near death experiencer in this case was a neuro-scientist. Doctors aren't infallible in terms of memory or judgment. I think a fairly good alternate explanation for this case is described in the following blog (also written by a neuroscientist):

http://theness.com/n...roof-of-heaven/

No but you can be creative and come up with all sorts of unsubstantiated rhetoric while assuming the conclusion because of personal bias.

Most everything in that article I have already logically addressed in these threads. Thats how arguments work. Repeating the same material over and over again without addressing the argument against that particular argument is just stubborn and only prooves that the arguments can not stand by themselves without bias to support them.

Some more examples from the article cited above. Trying not to repeat the things I have already addressed.

"Alexander claims there is no scientific explanation for his experiences, but I just gave one"

He absolutely did not!!!! He did not give a "scientific" explanation, he gave creative conjecture within the realms of his specific philosophy. Remember... Science is based on empiricism. Unless he has some sort of proof this is what happened inside the doctors brain it's just being creative. Its also dogmatic to insist that a materialist inturpretation is authoritative over others with out proof.

"The “hyper-vivid” description is also common of altered brain states."

WeLl yeah!!! An NDE is an altered state of conciousness. It's perfectly consistent with the brain as a receiver view.

"Even though he says he was not a devout Christian before the experience, his experience is strangely consistent with the cultural norms of his background"

And strangely consistent with many other NDEs and altered states from Buddhists to native Americans to African tribesmen. Shhheeesh you have to wonder If skeptics read anything other than their skeptical own material. Did you mention selection or confirmation bias ?

"Addressing his one major unstated premise, that the experienced occurred while his cortex was inactive, demolishes his claims and his interpretation of his experience."

Even If the experience happened while there was actual brain function, as I have repeatedly reminded everyone..... So what!!!! First off he has not a single shred of evidence that this was the case or not other then a belief that experiences can only happen while the brain is functional ( yet another example of assuming the conclusion). Indeed IF experiences can occure in a spirit realm quit obviously they are not going to be downloaded ( for lak of a better word) until the brain is functional again. This is a well known attribute in altered state practice.

Again his arguments are entirely consistent with what would be expected with the alternate view point. Nor are they very sophisticated or new. He is basically pulling straight from blackmores book that is an extreme example of "scientific?? " rhetoric and philosophical bias. Here is a critic of her book.

http://near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html

Edited by Seeker79

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People who are invested in the former interpretation will brush-off or interpret scientific evidence to conform to their beliefs (confirmation bias) and vice-versa. Thus, these types of discussions are often futile exercises which result in little more than mounting hostility.

I agree totally. Any philosophical bias is going to create confirmation bias, not just with spiritual but with materialistic ones aswell. This is why the arguments have to be addressed on their own merits. The arguments for the dying brain hypothesis do not hold up to logical scrutiny when one looks at the arguments without philosophical bias. This leaves us with the experience itself. Then we have to look at the other logical circumstances surrounding the phenomenon without getting creative with a load of Mabys and statistically unlikely circumstsnces though we can't totally rule them out.

Edited by Seeker79

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Atque ego quidem arbitror esse possumus cogitare aliquid ultra realitatem. Prope iam non experiri, sed ex jurata opinor.

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I became totally convinced of the afterlife when I saw a ghost.

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I had an NDE in 1999. D.C. still on my records,but I get periods of OBE's that were more prevalent after the NDE.

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I am on my mobile which limits me;what I experienced was so profound that I do not fear death and our bodies are husks.

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I am around death and dying where I live. One resident recently passed over and all I saw was a husk.The real part of her left.

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I knew her,before she left. She was.91,she was ready;the paramediccs did not cover her face. The reality is so profound...

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...Our bodies are vessels that carry our ethereal bodies.so that we can learn and grow spiritually. Death is not the end.

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