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Shabd Mystic

[Merged] Proof of Heaven

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I dream of the deceased and my dead dogs sometimes without seeing anyone else, does that mean I was in heaven?

Anyway, how do we know he wasn't lying, lying is pretty easy to do nowadays, people fall for all sort of things.

No it's not. Any police station will have a voice stress analyzer. It's nearly impossible to lie these days.

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Bottom line . . . near death is exactly what it says . . . . it is not death. Whatever experience it provides cannot be equated to whatever happens (if anything) after death.

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Since you have this thread going, I see no reason to hijack the other thread...so...I will begin posting here now.

I did have a thought. It isn't the first time I've thought this but I'll go ahead and share it. The thought is that there isn't another 'dimension' which is called heaven. Whatever you, the neurosurgeon and others have experienced...I think it does have to do with loss of oxygen to the brain...but that is really what death is...everyone dies from the same thing...loss of oxygen to the brain. With that in mind:

My thought is that there isn't another dimension per say in which 'heaven' exists. It is happening all the time right here, right now, right in front of us...but we are blind to it, completely and totally blind to it because of our 'conscious' state. It is like being in a room with several people talking at once...you are engaged in conversation and can't hear anyone else speaking because you are really hearing only yourself. When we take away the barriers of consciousness...we are able to see what is already there, that which we are blinded to by our conscious states. Does that make any sense to you?

Edited by joc
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Yeah, sounds legit....

Back to making chess pieces from unicorn bones.

Thanks,

this made me laugh

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the term NDE stands for NEAR death experience, not A death experience, so techinically it's referring to someone who didn't actually have to die to experience it. they NEARLY died.

i would like to clarify that for those who are stuck on the semantics of what death is, as the subject didn't in fact die in the first place.

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The best anyone could possibly do would be to present evidence of Heaven (or any other type of post life existance)... The only way to collect PROOF of Heaven would be to actually fully die - stay dead - and go there... No way to bring proof back...

Edited by Taun

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The best anyone could possibly do would be to present evidence of Heaven (or any other type of post life existance)... The only way to collect PROOF of Heaven would be to actually fully die - stay dead - and go there... No way to bring proof back...

The OBEs and NDEs are not true death. However; there are many, many instances of people having NDEs and the commonality of things they talked about while they were unconscious is quite astounding. If we can just get past the It wasn't dead and buried so it wasnt dead thinking and move on to the common ground of NDEs then perhaps we can speculate as to what might happen when one is...deader'n hell.

Edited by joc
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As to the encountering "dead people," in many of the subjects that "might" be explained by the fact that the mind is causing a hallucination that one is dead and so providing hallucinations that the mind would equate to death. Therefore it would only engage with "dead people."

If you suddenly saw your wife or your best friend, both of who are very much alive, then your brain would know that you aren't dead.

Also, in nearly all NDEs that happen to children, no "dead people" are encountered. That is easily explained by the fact that the children rarely know anyone who has died, so if the mind upon death is wired to provide a comforting scenario it would have no "dead people" to provide.

On the other hand, if it is a real spiritual event, even though the child's grant parents or great grand parents have likely already died, the child would have not known them or barely known them so a "stranger" appearing would not necessarily provide comfort.

One thing about NDEs, although there are many very common aspects to the literally thousands of reported NDEs, they are not all alike and, at best, just share "many" of the common themes.

What I have taken away from having read at least 250 different reports of NDE is that EITHER the human brain provides a comforting "hallucination" at the time of death (which is absolutely not backed by years of scientific research trying to prove that's what happens) or "God" provides each individual with the scenario upon death that is most comforting and pertinent to that person.

The second scenario is profoundly backed up by study of numerous mystics and their extensive writings about what happens when they "go beyond death" in meditation (or trance) and they travel the many different "spiritual dimensions." Mystics such as Kabir and Nanak, and in modern times Sawan Singh, along with dozens of others have provided much writing of their experiences.

Like NDEs, those dimensions, which are vastly more spectacular than anything experienced by NDEs (the NDE experience is very minor in comparison), the mystical experiences that have happened for centuries, are very similar in many ways, yet very different in others.

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the term NDE stands for NEAR death experience, not A death experience, so techinically it's referring to someone who didn't actually have to die to experience it. they NEARLY died.

i would like to clarify that for those who are stuck on the semantics of what death is, as the subject didn't in fact die in the first place.

Once again, it is "near death" only because they were revived. From a scientific perspective "death" is "final." According to the definition of death, if a person is revived then they never died.

Baseball star Ted Williams has been dead for many many years. Of that there is no doubt. But his family has his head cryogenically frozen. If science ever develops a way to reanimate a deceased person he will be brought back to life (him and many others who are frozen).

If that happens, then according to the definition of death, he was never dead. It wasn't "final." You people hung up on the definition of death can then spend years claiming he was never dead, and by definition will be right, just like you are in the near-death experiences.

But people who believe in a 'soul," whether through faith or because via mystical practices they have proof positive of its existence, define death as that moment when the soul leaves the human body and begins traveling to the "heavens" of different dimensions.

To those people Ted Williams is very dead. His head has been removed from his body. He has been dead for about 20 years. If he is brought back from the dead 5 years from now you will be able to say he was never dead. But Ted Williams, and countless others will know that he was in fact dead. Maybe not by the scientific definition, but by "reality."

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Bottom line . . . near death is exactly what it says . . . . it is not death. Whatever experience it provides cannot be equated to whatever happens (if anything) after death.

I'm sorry, but unless you yourself have experienced "death," you have absolutely no idea if this is true. None. This is all in your mind and it is your ego driving you to believe you "know."

Unless you have experienced death you have no earthly idea if what these people have experienced is far different from, or exactly like, what happens at death.

The only argument is whether what these people have experienced is "death." Not a scientific definition of "death" but by sharing identical experiences of what happens to those who have died.

And, unless we can dig up people from their graves and speak to them, there is no way of knowing if these experiences are or aren't identical. Instead we have to use whatever else is available in order to try to determine whether this is "real" or just a hallucination.

And hundreds, maybe even thousands, of well-qualified researchers are devoted to getting to the bottom of this. And that well-respected Harvard neurologist says that so far there is NOTHING that scientifically can explain this. Nothing.

if you have some expertise that can explain this to all the researchers, please share it with them instead of with a few anonymous posters on an Internet message board.

Meanwhile feel free to keep sharing YOUR :"opinion" but know that this is nothing more than that, despite what you want to believe.

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Once again, it is "near death" only because they were revived. From a scientific perspective "death" is "final." According to the definition of death, if a person is revived then they never died.

Baseball star Ted Williams has been dead for many many years. Of that there is no doubt. But his family has his head cryogenically frozen. If science ever develops a way to reanimate a deceased person he will be brought back to life (him and many others who are frozen).

If that happens, then according to the definition of death, he was never dead. It wasn't "final." You people hung up on the definition of death can then spend years claiming he was never dead, and by definition will be right, just like you are in the near-death experiences.

But people who believe in a 'soul," whether through faith or because via mystical practices they have proof positive of its existence, define death as that moment when the soul leaves the human body and begins traveling to the "heavens" of different dimensions.

To those people Ted Williams is very dead. His head has been removed from his body. He has been dead for about 20 years. If he is brought back from the dead 5 years from now you will be able to say he was never dead. But Ted Williams, and countless others will know that he was in fact dead. Maybe not by the scientific definition, but by "reality."

i think you are misunderstanding my belief where this is concerned, but that could well be my fault.

i am extremely interested in the topic of NDE's. i have at least fifteen books on the subject in my library alone. my idea of what it means to be dead is not relevant to the experience of nde's - at least not to me - as i see those people as being at the point of death (but not actually dead) and being afforded a look at what lay beyond.

my point earlier was that it doesn't matter when one believes is the actual moment of terminal death because the patient never achieved that state when they had the experience.

does that make sense to anyone else but me just now? lol

anyway, carry on...

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The best anyone could possibly do would be to present evidence of Heaven (or any other type of post life existance)... The only way to collect PROOF of Heaven would be to actually fully die - stay dead - and go there... No way to bring proof back...

Once again, that is merely a belief. Nothing more. All the arguing about whether these people have or haven't "died" is absolutely meaningless. if it is more comforting to people then we'll stop calling it "near death." The reason they call it "near" is because the patient didn't literally die. Everyone already knows that The terminology is meaningless.

What matters, the ONLY thing that matters, is whether these thousands and thousands of people from all walks of life all over the world, have indeed traveled "somehow" (we won't call it death any more) to "different dimensions." Or were these some sort of organically induced hallucinations.

Who cares if they were "dead?" That, once again, is just semantics. That doesn't matter. If it makes people feel better we'll say they were alive at the time. The ONLY question is whether they actually experienced what they "believe" they experienced or whether it was a hallucination caused by a brain that, in most cases, wasn't functioning or was barely functioning.

Arguing about whether they were dead or alive is just a way to avoid the only pertinent question: Was this a "real" experience or a hallucination? The argument about "dead or not" couldn't be more irrelevant.

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i think you are misunderstanding my belief where this is concerned, but that could well be my fault.

i am extremely interested in the topic of NDE's. i have at least fifteen books on the subject in my library alone. my idea of what it means to be dead is not relevant to the experience of nde's - at least not to me - as i see those people as being at the point of death (but not actually dead) and being afforded a look at what lay beyond.

my point earlier was that it doesn't matter when one believes is the actual moment of terminal death because the patient never achieved that state when they had the experience.

does that make sense to anyone else but me just now? lol

anyway, carry on...

Yes, I did misunderstand and i apologize for that.

It seems as you were typing this I was answering someone else and said pretty much the same thing so we are on the same page. :)

Again, sorry for the confusion.

Edited by Shabd Mystic
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And your comments somehow magically represent something other than YOUR opinion? In the meantime, we can research all we want about people who ALMOST died and attempt to equate it to those who did but you will have one helluva time verifying your results.

Since my opinion is invalidated because I have not died, I can only assume that you are dead, thus gaining your expertise, right?

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Since you have this thread going, I see no reason to hijack the other thread...so...I will begin posting here now.

I did have a thought. It isn't the first time I've thought this but I'll go ahead and share it. The thought is that there isn't another 'dimension' which is called heaven. Whatever you, the neurosurgeon and others have experienced...I think it does have to do with loss of oxygen to the brain...but that is really what death is...everyone dies from the same thing...loss of oxygen to the brain. With that in mind:

My thought is that there isn't another dimension per say in which 'heaven' exists. It is happening all the time right here, right now, right in front of us...but we are blind to it, completely and totally blind to it because of our 'conscious' state. It is like being in a room with several people talking at once...you are engaged in conversation and can't hear anyone else speaking because you are really hearing only yourself. When we take away the barriers of consciousness...we are able to see what is already there, that which we are blinded to by our conscious states. Does that make any sense to you?

That is how I tend to see it too. Even the Bible and other religious texts tend to back this up.

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Yes, I did misunderstand and i apologize for that.

It seems as you were typing this I was answering someone else and said pretty much the same thing so we are on the same page. :)

Again, sorry for the confusion.

no problem :)

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And your comments somehow magically represent something other than YOUR opinion? In the meantime, we can research all we want about people who ALMOST died and attempt to equate it to those who did but you will have one helluva time verifying your results.

Since my opinion is invalidated because I have not died, I can only assume that you are dead, thus gaining your expertise, right?

I see we are going to get into an endless battle here of who "wins." The point i was making is that your claims are invalid because ... ahhhh, the heck with it. You understood what i said and what I clearly demonstrated and now you are changing the subject.

If you really care about answers to your question, there is much already here in this thread, countless books and papers (many online) done by top researchers and scientists, and I'm sure even more will be posted if interest in this thread continues. But I've had enough experience with message board posters to recognize when someone is feigning interest in something in order to try to 'win" an imaginary contest and I am too busy and too uninterested in message board battles to bother trying to answer this.

If there was even a sliver of interest in true answers to your questions, i strongly suggest you begin your search by studying "mystics" rather than near-death experiencers. A good place to start might be in attempting to fully understand what St. Paul really meant when he said "I die daily." (And it is not what Christians think because most Christians have no idea what mysticism even entails, nor do they realize that Paul was a mystic.)

.

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I see we are going to get into an endless battle here of who "wins." The point i was making is that your claims are invalid because ... ahhhh, the heck with it. You understood what i said and what I clearly demonstrated and now you are changing the subject.

If you really care about answers to your question, there is much already here in this thread, countless books and papers (many online) done by top researchers and scientists, and I'm sure even more will be posted if interest in this thread continues. But I've had enough experience with message board posters to recognize when someone is feigning interest in something in order to try to 'win" an imaginary contest and I am too busy and too uninterested in message board battles to bother trying to answer this.

If there was even a sliver of interest in true answers to your questions, i strongly suggest you begin your search by studying "mystics" rather than near-death experiencers. A good place to start might be in attempting to fully understand what St. Paul really meant when he said "I die daily." (And it is not what Christians think because most Christians have no idea what mysticism even entails, nor do they realize that Paul was a mystic.)

.

You're quite right, of course, I rarely -- no never -- have interest in the absurd. I have no interest in unsubstantiated claims that presume knowledge superior to others. I am not here to win, because the prize is insignificant. But I will express my opinion and demand that it be treated equally to yours.

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Is Heaven for real?

This age-old question has been debated for centuries. Of late, the subject has been tackled in theological circles and has been extensively covered by mainstream media. Many who have had near-death experiences regularly describe the images they saw after purportedly crossing into the after-life. Who can forget

Colton Burpo’s story? The young boy claims to have ascended into heaven during a near-death experience back in 2003. His story inevitably made its way into a popular book called, “Heaven Is for Real.” But Burpo isn’t alone.

There have been similar experiences told in popular media. The latest tale comes from

Dr. Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon who, ironically, never really believed in near-death experiences before falling into a coma. In the October 15 issue of Newsweek, though, Alexander details his purported ascent to heaven and his subsequent change-of-heart.

With a firm understanding of the human brain, Alexander had previously dismissed purported journeys outside of the earthly realm as a byproduct of what happens to human beings in the throes of trauma. However, that changed once he found himself heaven-bound.

The neurosurgeon explains:

*Snip*

Edited by Still Waters
Reduced length of quoted text
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wow what a nice story :D i do to believe it is real ! ..

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You're quite right, of course, I rarely -- no never -- have interest in the absurd. I have no interest in unsubstantiated claims that presume knowledge superior to others. I am not here to win, because the prize is insignificant. But I will express my opinion and demand that it be treated equally to yours.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had been concerned that this might be all about ego for you. ;)

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wow what a nice story :D i do to believe it is real ! ..

Hey I do believe you, thanks for the comment.

peace4

mark

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i think you are misunderstanding my belief where this is concerned, but that could well be my fault.

i am extremely interested in the topic of NDE's. i have at least fifteen books on the subject in my library alone. my idea of what it means to be dead is not relevant to the experience of nde's - at least not to me - as i see those people as being at the point of death (but not actually dead) and being afforded a look at what lay beyond.

my point earlier was that it doesn't matter when one believes is the actual moment of terminal death because the patient never achieved that state when they had the experience.

does that make sense to anyone else but me just now? lol

anyway, carry on...

Why jgirl are you a convert? Or am I missing something from you in the last few years?

Edited by Seeker79

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The best anyone could possibly do would be to present evidence of Heaven (or any other type of post life existance)... The only way to collect PROOF of Heaven would be to actually fully die - stay dead - and go there... No way to bring proof back...

On the other hand, there is the Lazarus Syndrom. Proof of heaven? Certain resurrected people bring or had brought with them the "promise" of "freedom." This "freedom," at least to me, is about the process of Nirvana in order for "awareness" or spirit to merge with God(?); being one with God(?) is the final destination -- "heaven." I believe that the power Jesus Christ is one those beings. I say is because according to Matthew 28:20: "...remember that I am always with you until the end of time"; therefore, Christ is still around to guide people to "heaven." There are other resurrected beings who bring with them the "good news," which is the "promise." They're here for that sole reason. In a sense, the stories of their lives are the needed code, if you will, to hopefully get one inspired and to stay true to one's goal, which is to reach "heaven."

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Mark 8:31: "He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things..." What's the purpose of suffering? A resurrected being called Jesus suffered, and apparently, he's a major key to enter "heaven." A guru once said, "Do not forget your sufferings; use them to get closer to God(?)." Just a thought...about "heaven."

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