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Saru

Are we the earliest intelligent species ?

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The problem with this is, in 3rd world countries the money that can be made means there is a lot of corruption and they will risk cutting down forests regardless of the punishment. (I myself have witnessed an ISLAND of floating forest being transported over the sea). You mention what other species does this? Well none. Others neednt to because they don't consume anywhere near the amount of wood we do and depletion of forests would not be a problem at all as a result of them.

Like the Palm oil forests I take it.

Whilst we have a few that are willing to take advantage and rape an environment for profit, many more will fight these individuals. We used to use palm oil for cooking at home, until I found out about the Orangutan's plight. It is a banned commodity in our house now. I am only one, but I suspect I am one of thousands. I do not see the product on the local supermarket shelves these days and have not done so for about a year. And we know about things such as what you have mentioned above because someone has seen it, and takes offense to it. That offended quality of seeing a global environment raped for personal gain, and being outraged at it, is the human trait I am fighting to have heard, and to be fair I believe it outweighs the bad side. Money just offers advantages to a head start.

I will direct you to this site to answer that question: http://overfishing.o...g_a_problem.php

Pretty much what I had hoped for. This illustrates exactly what I am saying.

Who recognised the problem? Who has qualified the problem? Who has an answer to the problem? And who is doing something about the problem?

We are.

I am not implying we are evil and destructive. I have addressed some have recognised the fact that continuing our damage is unsustainable and in the long term will cost more. Elephants don't knock down trees on a scale in which it would be considered a threat to any forest and the biodiversity. As stated before the corruption is more rife than you think and it will continue as the profits rise.

Then I think you may have entered the wrong conversation. I got the impression from Ryegrog that humans are a pretty hopeless species that stumbles around destroying everything. And far too many angsty teens have that perception, and wield it around. I do not doubt corruption is rife, that is business, but I think that a great many of us are trying to make this a better place, even though some do not care what they leave behind for others to clean up.

This I have no doubt is as prevalent in the animal kingdom, if not more so than it is with people. That is where I was going. I think we agree that "we are not all bad".

I am aware. I am also aware that during a period in the time of the dinosaurs the entire atmosphere was polluted and in fact poisonous to breathe. What I am arguing here is that it is not conducted by nature.

Who is to say that an industrial revolution is not a normal aspect of intelligent evolution? We are simply the first to make it this far.

I never stated elephants were at all benevolent. People forget they are wild animals. Depends on the situation, a T Rex if fed might ignore it or use it to lure other prey. Same situation with humans, of course if they were hungry they would just go to the nearest supermarket or fast food place for example and eat there, if it were a matter of survival then the dolphin would probably be on the menu. Other than that people would try help it back into the ocean. I have heard of animals helping other species of animals.

I think we are on the same page here.

Never said either species were better than us. Well, greed and failure to recognise long term affect is quite hard to determine with nature. Unfortunately the few undesirables are in charge of what happens on a grand scale. (sociopathic, greedy etc politicians, CEOs etc). Not all are bad but just saying.

I am quite sure we are on the same page here.

I thought it would be identified as such but for example destroy the soil around you and you won't have anywhere to grow the food. Same could be applied for everything. Which is why you have to consider it is still nature and you need to try and conserve this. Not necessarily hippy crap, just realist.

The soil is replenished with rotating crops, we now understand even the needs of plants, this is the sort of thing we assist the environment with. If we do not look after it, it does not look after us, and many of us rely on this balance. I think I misunderstood you to be perfectly honest.

You put an elephant to solve oil leaks, you're going to get no where. We are the only species who can actually fix these problems. Of course we aren't going to stand idle and watch this happen.

But would it push a Dolphin back into the sea? I think this is where we have risen to the next level? We can seem heartless and cruel, but sometimes we just need to look a bit deeper.

I did not think I came across as one who hated humanity or such. Just factual evidence of what is actually happening in the world and the stark reality of what things really are at. As Ryegrog has also said, just telling it like it is.

This is perhaps where we got off on the wrong foot. Post I was replying to was this:

Yes I agree there are measures taken to right the wrong but we still keep destroying as we repair.

In my opinion, Species like the elephant, whale and dolphin are more intelligent because they live

in harmony with nature where we exploit it.

I find that an inaccurate statement, and not really fair on humanity.

I also recognise the amount of good people in this world who want to and do help in fixing things. What I detest in humanity is ignorance, which, quite frankly is the CORE problem.

Again, I think we are on the same page, my objection is to seeing humans as some lumbering stupid creature that crushes everything in their path. I think we have earned the right to be considered more than that.

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Based on how long we are here.... i think we are not one of first civilizations. I watched a documentary 2 days ago, that had a topic on how we came to be. Interesting fact was that a scientist said we were all made out of stardust, because it contained genetic materials for making life possible, human and animal... So that took place in half of our planets age, lets say 10 millions years ago when the ape was on the rise.

What i am trying to say is that stardust came from a supernova explosion, once it sucked everything in it exploded and shot all that material all over the space. So if this guy was half right, there are plenty more civilizations out there, but they are too far from us and our reach. Beliving we are the only one is very ignorant, because man cannot comprehend the vastness of space, i mean our brains can't..

Close Nuke, but no cigar

The stars underwent evolution as well. There have been three generations of them. The current generation is capable of producing the heavy metals you heard described as "Star Stuff". The first suns were just gas, far to low in metallically to produce these elements.

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Ok maybe I didn't stipulate everything in my post. Obviously these elephants have been taken from their homes. I'm not sure of the procedure of Indian trainers but most circus trainers undergo a "breaking" procedure. They "break" the elephant through beating and such until it gives in, so the elephant would then follow the trainers orders.

Like horses I take it. This practise is centuries old. Why is it a problem now? This is often mutually beneficial, the animal has a hard work life, but need not fear predators or hunger. Many of us take the same option with work.

They are wild animals I believe you are forgetting that important fact. I also believe in that video you notice their legs are chained up. But it's all good because they get back rubs and baths... Right?

Ohh, no, that was the crux of my posts!

But with the back rubs.............. .. touche`! ;)

Revenge? Oh no, I was saying invasion of their homes. I mean, how do humans usually react in that case? Oh yeah, war, that's it.

War is when we go against each other. This strikes me as something quite different. I would call two grown Elephants in a fight "Warring".

I believe that is because we recognise in the wild that is how they are and that is what you can expect.

I do not think we can expect that. I expect you will find that many of the killers are young bull elephants, still in their "teens" When older more stable male Elephants were introduced to these herds, the younger wilder elephants started to settle down. But I would call that instinct as opposed to intelligence.

I left dolphins alone since I don't know enough about them to make a comment. I only recently watched a couple of videos on the elephants and the training procedures they go through. From what I've seen they've just had enough and snap.

:tu Fair enough, I think our tangents were not what we thought they were anyway. I think essentially, we are pretty much in agreement. People are not all bad, and animals do not have more respect or insight to the planet than we do. They do what comes naturally. We think ahead.

Edited by psyche101

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Close Nuke, but no cigar

The stars underwent evolution as well. There have been three generations of them. The current generation is capable of producing the heavy metals you heard described as "Star Stuff". The first suns were just gas, far to low in metallically to produce these elements.

Hmmm true, yet universe exists very long. One could say that we came in the picture in early part of its age, so if there are planets like ours (more earth-like ) i would bet a round of beer that there is animal life there, or at least primitive form of life. Hell maybe there is a evolved civilization somewhere but we simply can't know...

Our technology is evolving rapidly and i bet that they will soon find something interesting.. if they haven't already who knows? :huh:

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I believe we are already addressing these issues. Australia's policy was always to grow large but in the last couple of years fears have arisen that such is likely to affect our current way of life. I expect this to follow suit. Although there is still much land, resources are harder to come by. Alternate fuels, foods and living conditions are all under scrutiny now, and we are looking for smarter cleaner ways to do things.

I do not reject your link, as I explained I simply cannot see it. It just looks like a white rectangle to me. I would appreciate if you could stick to text or the like for my own sake and to better further any conversation.

I guess there is a measure of pride involved, I think our ancestors have accomplished a great deal and I feel a sense of pride about that.

LOL :tu:

It is not just you at all, most people have an ingrained love for these animals, and we find it hard to imagine them doing these things, but at the end of the day, they are wild animals, just like a Lion or Tiger. It's a very typical mindset and most people are shocked when they recognise it. I admit I was surprised to find the lovable Dolphin will rape a human given the chance! And after that doco on Elephants, crikey, I think they are pretty darn scary, heck a Giraffe can crack a Lions skull with one kick! And they have killed quite a few people as well.

Just because I agreed that elephants and dolphins are capable of violence like us doesn't t change the fact

that we destroy our own planet and they don't. Yes we have the intelligence to repair what we fixed but to accomplish that

we have to quite damaging. BTW...Why don't you have access to Youtube Vids? Does your employer have a block on his

Computers. Same on you for wasting company time.

http://en.wikipedia....c_Garbage_Patch

Edited by Ryegrog

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"IF there is a galactic neighbourhood we are no doubt classed as an endangered species to them, the reason being our species is intelligent enough to manipulate and create all manner of things but not yet smart enough to leave our world and colonise others (apart from a hop to the moon we've done nothing)."

it is not our lack of intelligence, it is our lack of ability to get beyond our need for material gain, currency is holding our species back, it is a sore invention, "money"........... Just think how much more advanced we would be if we did not have that obstacle......

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This is as good an answer as any so dont Get bent If were it ! :blush:

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Like the Palm oil forests I take it.

Whilst we have a few that are willing to take advantage and rape an environment for profit, many more will fight these individuals. We used to use palm oil for cooking at home, until I found out about the Orangutan's plight. It is a banned commodity in our house now. I am only one, but I suspect I am one of thousands. I do not see the product on the local supermarket shelves these days and have not done so for about a year. And we know about things such as what you have mentioned above because someone has seen it, and takes offense to it. That offended quality of seeing a global environment raped for personal gain, and being outraged at it, is the human trait I am fighting to have heard, and to be fair I believe it outweighs the bad side. Money just offers advantages to a head start.

As we are capable of tightening our logging processes in our own countries, there are others who do not police this or are corrupt where it then picks up tenfold due to demand. This short term profit gain which clouds the minds of many who can exploit this situation is the problem.

I also go agree with you on avoiding these products and spend a little bit more if need be. For example, I try to go for the tuna which has been caught with hook and line other than those huge nets that take in way too many fish and others not intended to be caught from dolphins to stingray.

I believe you are also aware of the problem here in Australia primarily with the sale of our own agricultural goods. The supermarkets extremely competitive prices means that farmers can't make a good profit at all. Importing from overseas brings in cheaper goods that makes it hard to compete with prices.

So the consumer instantly thinks, cheaper, I'll take that one. But not recognising the long term cost it could have even to them. They would also consider the palm oil above other locally produced oils. This failure to see the long term covers all facets.

I do not deny there are many who recognise the long term but the others, again, comes down to either ignorance or the affordability.

I also recognise in America the forests have grown back quite substantially since heavy foresting that went over two centuries. Obviously due to the recognition of conservation and how it is doubly important to respect the environment in that way.

Pretty much what I had hoped for. This illustrates exactly what I am saying.

Who recognised the problem? Who has qualified the problem? Who has an answer to the problem? And who is doing something about the problem?

We are.

I do not deny we aren't standing idle watching things just get run into the ground. What I am saying is that we tighten our laws, our products increase in price, demand for cheaper goods also increases and in turn those countries with poor policing, high corruption (generally 3rd world countries), and/or inability to control take advantage of the situation.

Can you blame them? A country which has been poor for so long has a chance to make some money and then the 1st world says stop it? However, even they must think realistically. These countries are unmonitored and unregulated and in turn use procedures like giant net fishing to maximise their profit in a short amount of time, extremely damaging to the ecosystem.

Then I think you may have entered the wrong conversation. I got the impression from Ryegrog that humans are a pretty hopeless species that stumbles around destroying everything. And far too many angsty teens have that perception, and wield it around. I do not doubt corruption is rife, that is business, but I think that a great many of us are trying to make this a better place, even though some do not care what they leave behind for others to clean up.

This I have no doubt is as prevalent in the animal kingdom, if not more so than it is with people. That is where I was going. I think we agree that "we are not all bad".

I don't believe we are all bad, I apologise if I ever implied such. Though as bad as it might be for me to say this, if you could click your fingers and make all those people holding humanity back from just being better disappear from this world would be a million times more desirable to live in. Though my contention was, those in charge call the shots. Whether there are many or few, they control what happens on a grand scale.

Who is to say that an industrial revolution is not a normal aspect of intelligent evolution? We are simply the first to make it this far.

We definitely could change that fact with cleaner alternatives. Take a look at Germany for example, they have implemented many sustainable and long term alternatives to minimise pollution and use of natural resources.

The soil is replenished with rotating crops, we now understand even the needs of plants, this is the sort of thing we assist the environment with. If we do not look after it, it does not look after us, and many of us rely on this balance. I think I misunderstood you to be perfectly honest.

Yes, that is what I meant. I think it was due to our disconnection from the environment which led us to stray away. For example in the Narive American culture, they acknowledged this entirely and before any outsider influence came, where in some cases had no choices but to improvise against invading forces, followed it as a way of life.

But would it push a Dolphin back into the sea? I think this is where we have risen to the next level? We can seem heartless and cruel, but sometimes we just need to look a bit deeper.

I have heard of accounts of animals help each other out in such a way. The elephant would probably have to know the dolphin actually lives in the sea and acknowledge the dolphin is in strife. But who knows really. I think a lot of us are clouded and blinded by materialism. This is quite a driving force leading the environment into the ground for short term personal gains.

This is perhaps where we got off on the wrong foot. Post I was replying to was this:

I find that an inaccurate statement, and not really fair on humanity.

I also agree with you on that one. I do not deny there are those who exploit it however. But consider the possibility if the dolphin, elephant and whale were in our position. Would they be like us? Would they be better at nurturing the environment than us? Or would they be exactly like us?

Again, I think we are on the same page, my objection is to seeing humans as some lumbering stupid creature that crushes everything in their path. I think we have earned the right to be considered more than that.

I do believe that destruction is ceasing an we are making a turn for the better. However we have so many big problems right now something will have to be done about them soon and I think something big could happen in our lifetime.

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Like horses I take it. This practise is centuries old. Why is it a problem now? This is often mutually beneficial, the animal has a hard work life, but need not fear predators or hunger. Many of us take the same option with work.

From what I've seen, a lot of people practice safer and most respectable ways with horses, aiming more to earn the horses trust other than to make it bow down to your will. Whereas with an elephant, more abuse and almost torture is initiated to break its will. An elephant is quite capable of living on its own without much fear of predators. Lions rarely target elephants and will only do so in an act of desperation.

Ohh, no, that was the crux of my posts!

But with the back rubs.............. .. touche`! ;)

I don't even get them and I'm not even taken captive :(

War is when we go against each other. This strikes me as something quite different. I would call two grown Elephants in a fight "Warring".

So say for instance when an alien invasion takes place, would we not be at war with the invading aliens?

I do not think we can expect that. I expect you will find that many of the killers are young bull elephants, still in their "teens" When older more stable male Elephants were introduced to these herds, the younger wilder elephants started to settle down. But I would call that instinct as opposed to intelligence.

I would agree with you, same deal as we see young men fighting on the streets today.

:tu Fair enough, I think our tangents were not what we thought they were anyway. I think essentially, we are pretty much in agreement. People are not all bad, and animals do not have more respect or insight to the planet than we do. They do what comes naturally. We think ahead.

I do think as a whole on an individual level, animals are more "in touch" with the environment. We are all quite equally capable of such I'm not denying that. A lot of people today have their eyes on their phones and computer screens and become detached from the environment. Not saying you can have both in mutual connection, but some tend to drift away.

On that note, a big issue that we are also facing with our disconnection from nature in the sense that sometimes it cannot take its course. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, two terms which aren't so applicable these days with all the medical assistance available. Our growing life expectancies, higher birth rates, huge young populations only spells disaster. One can only imagine if the worlds population doubled in the next 30 years and the affect that would have.

Which comes back to where I was thinking that something big could happen, we can't continue like this that is a fact.

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Hmmm true, yet universe exists very long. One could say that we came in the picture in early part of its age, so if there are planets like ours (more earth-like ) i would bet a round of beer that there is animal life there, or at least primitive form of life. Hell maybe there is a evolved civilization somewhere but we simply can't know...

I would agree completely. In fact it is not out of the question that some distant galaxy someplace has two humanoids on a forum discussing alien life.

Our technology is evolving rapidly and i bet that they will soon find something interesting.. if they haven't already who knows? :huh:

I agree. Some estimates say we should find something or someone in 40 years going buy the current rate of finding extra solar planets. I sure hope they are right.

My biggie is comms. I completely believe that first contact will be via communications.

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Just because I agreed that elephants and dolphins are capable of violence like us doesn't t change the fact that we destroy our own planet and they don't.

LOL, cranky little so and so aren't ya!

They do destroy the planet. How many cattle methane management programs do our bovines have in place?

What we are is man. There is not 6 billion of anything on earth other than people. If ELephants managed to rise to such a number I bet they would not give a hoot what plants they trample out of extinction, what their numbers are doing to the atmosphere, or so much as put their waste away. We do all that because we are managing the systems around us. Again, you are talking like 1% of the planet, the fat cats who make an easy buck. That is not by any means humanity at all. That is a contingent that bucks the system. People do not approve, and people protest.

Elephants ond Dolphins rely on the ecosystem, they do naught for it. Because you do not see widespread damage only means there is not all that many of them. How many Porpoise breeds are extinct because Dolphins kiled them? We will never know. Animals will drive another species to extinction for their own benefit. We try to find enough for us, and animals, and structure our daily life to accomodate both. How many species did the T Rex stop from evolving to a modern standard? Do they care? The earth relies on all of us too you know. That is how it becomes what it is. We fertilise, beautify, manipulate and create. What do animals do? Eat, sleep kill and die. No morals, no accountability, nothing. We are trying to do something.

After your above post, you have me more confused than anything. If you think you do not sound like you hate humanity, then you are wrong.

Yes we have the intelligence to repair what we fixed but to accomplish that we have to quite damaging.

No we do not. Damage happens in the path of progress. We are the only species that ever cleaned up after themselves. We have a conscience. Well most do.

BTW...Why don't you have access to Youtube Vids? Does your employer have a block on his Computers. Same on you for wasting company time.

Yes it is banned at work (I am in charge of IT at work so bloody oath is is banned), but at home I have had it blocked at my router because my kids abuse it. I said this in another thread, you must have missed it.

Shame on your for chastising someone without all the facts!

LINK

ScienceActivists Want to Turn Ocean Trash Patch Into Hawaii-sized Green Nation

g15673_Recycled_Island.png

Edited by psyche101

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As we are capable of tightening our logging processes in our own countries, there are others who do not police this or are corrupt where it then picks up tenfold due to demand. This short term profit gain which clouds the minds of many who can exploit this situation is the problem.

I agree, however weeding these shady types will take time, no two ways about it. There is only so many places to rape, and eventually they have to be weeded out. I think that is just statistics? As more people become aware of how damaging these individual are, I think it will be harder and harder for them.

I also go agree with you on avoiding these products and spend a little bit more if need be. For example, I try to go for the tuna which has been caught with hook and line other than those huge nets that take in way too many fish and others not intended to be caught from dolphins to stingray.

I did not know we sold that here. I am the only one in the family that eats Tuna, so we do not have it in the house much and I have not noticed the "hook caught" on the label when I buy myself a can. I will keep an eye out for it, thank you for the heads up.

I believe you are also aware of the problem here in Australia primarily with the sale of our own agricultural goods. The supermarkets extremely competitive prices means that farmers can't make a good profit at all. Importing from overseas brings in cheaper goods that makes it hard to compete with prices.

So the consumer instantly thinks, cheaper, I'll take that one. But not recognising the long term cost it could have even to them. They would also consider the palm oil above other locally produced oils. This failure to see the long term covers all facets.

Very aware. I grew up a bit west of the Darling Downs on a broadacre farm, we ran Sheep, Dairy, and crops. Watermelon was a big one (you know where I grew up now :D )

I do not deny there are many who recognise the long term but the others, again, comes down to either ignorance or the affordability.

I also recognise in America the forests have grown back quite substantially since heavy foresting that went over two centuries. Obviously due to the recognition of conservation and how it is doubly important to respect the environment in that way.

Indeed, and I think that we learn more every day. Heck, I just learned what to look out for on a Tuna can.

I do not deny we aren't standing idle watching things just get run into the ground. What I am saying is that we tighten our laws, our products increase in price, demand for cheaper goods also increases and in turn those countries with poor policing, high corruption (generally 3rd world countries), and/or inability to control take advantage of the situation.

Can you blame them? A country which has been poor for so long has a chance to make some money and then the 1st world says stop it? However, even they must think realistically. These countries are unmonitored and unregulated and in turn use procedures like giant net fishing to maximise their profit in a short amount of time, extremely damaging to the ecosystem.

No, again, this makes perfect sense, we are in a world that is an a never ending learning cycle. I agree with all of this. Who can say no to a quick buck? The repercussions are rarely properly understood at the onset of any enterprise.

I don't believe we are all bad, I apologise if I ever implied such. Though as bad as it might be for me to say this, if you could click your fingers and make all those people holding humanity back from just being better disappear from this world would be a million times more desirable to live in. Though my contention was, those in charge call the shots. Whether there are many or few, they control what happens on a grand scale.

May I apologise. I was a bit snarky after debating some of the more "difficult" posters (not you Rye, you're OK with me) I was probably a bit crankier than I should have been. And I have been doing some stupid long hours of late. This place helps me wind down. I do believe I agree with pretty much everything you have said including the above. Although there are more than just the Fat Cats I'd like to see disappear at the click of a finger ;) Like bad criminals, religious fundies, and perhaps the deliberately ignorant :w00t:

We definitely could change that fact with cleaner alternatives. Take a look at Germany for example, they have implemented many sustainable and long term alternatives to minimise pollution and use of natural resources.

Surely you have noticed a massive increase in Solar in Australia over the last 2 years? It went nuts for a bit there, I took advantage myself and put a decent system on the roof. I think we are all getting there, someone has to dive in first is all I think. I have seen proptotypes of future panels, and the future looks bright.

I think each country should seek their own answers. I think New Zealand could benefit from geo-thermal, Tassie and most of the Southern states should benefit from Ocean driven power plants, of which there are many great designs. I think it is a relatively new technology, newer than the Internet. so it is just a matter of time.

LED lighting is going well too, Thats took some time to get of the ground, but it is quite viable now, and an excellent alternative to incandescent lighting. Fraction of the power. Whole houses are being lit by what one or two light bulbs used to draw.

Yes, that is what I meant. I think it was due to our disconnection from the environment which led us to stray away. For example in the Narive American culture, they acknowledged this entirely and before any outsider influence came, where in some cases had no choices but to improvise against invading forces, followed it as a way of life.

I am pretty sure in many of the farming communities that this is a centuries old practise. 3 years crop rotations was common in the middle ages. We still do it as far as I know. We did where I grew up.

I have heard of accounts of animals help each other out in such a way. The elephant would probably have to know the dolphin actually lives in the sea and acknowledge the dolphin is in strife. But who knows really. I think a lot of us are clouded and blinded by materialism. This is quite a driving force leading the environment into the ground for short term personal gains.

I have read cute stories in the paper, but they make it there because they are a rare story. It is not normal for a species to help another species, unless a symbiotic relations ship is in plave, and again, that tends to depend on the environment providing resources.

I also agree with you on that one. I do not deny there are those who exploit it however. But consider the possibility if the dolphin, elephant and whale were in our position. Would they be like us? Would they be better at nurturing the environment than us? Or would they be exactly like us?

If they followed the same industrial revolution, I'd like to think that they would do the same. But I do not think such is possible until a certain state of intelligence is reached. I think we all have to learn by example, and I like to think intelligence gives us that conscience required to give a damn.

I do believe that destruction is ceasing an we are making a turn for the better. However we have so many big problems right now something will have to be done about them soon and I think something big could happen in our lifetime.

We are very much in agreement, I have been thinking the same thing. Oil is not sustainable, and many people have been working hard at this for a long time. My big wonder is will new technology integrate into our current way of life, or will we have to adapt to it?

Thanks for your response, my manners were not around when we first spoke, and I have misjudged you terribly. My apologies. You did not have to be as nice as you were in your reply, I cannot help but respect that.

Edited by psyche101

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From what I've seen, a lot of people practice safer and most respectable ways with horses, aiming more to earn the horses trust other than to make it bow down to your will. Whereas with an elephant, more abuse and almost torture is initiated to break its will. An elephant is quite capable of living on its own without much fear of predators. Lions rarely target elephants and will only do so in an act of desperation.

I have been involved in breaking horses. I always thought they were pretty indifferent, but out West we have no Elephants, my experience is limited there, so I will have to take your word on that. :D

It is because an Elephant can live on it's own that I would classify them as destructive when they kill people and destroy villages.

I don't even get them and I'm not even taken captive :(

Hrrmzz, I think it is more fun the other way......

So I hear!! :w00t:

So say for instance when an alien invasion takes place, would we not be at war with the invading aliens?

I would call that two intelligent species and base the commonality on that. I guess it would depend on why we are warring with siad Alien? It might be simply a "police action" :innocent:

I would agree with you, same deal as we see young men fighting on the streets today.

Yes, but no accountability, and Elephant does not feel bad if it kills a human. Although Elephants express grief when a herd member dies, I think that is the most rudimentary of instinct, and is not what I would consider accountability, which is what one requires to look after the planet.

I do think as a whole on an individual level, animals are more "in touch" with the environment. We are all quite equally capable of such I'm not denying that. A lot of people today have their eyes on their phones and computer screens and become detached from the environment. Not saying you can have both in mutual connection, but some tend to drift away.

Agreed, it takes all types, but some people are a little too in touch with the environment............

On that note, a big issue that we are also facing with our disconnection from nature in the sense that sometimes it cannot take its course. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, two terms which aren't so applicable these days with all the medical assistance available. Our growing life expectancies, higher birth rates, huge young populations only spells disaster. One can only imagine if the worlds population doubled in the next 30 years and the affect that would have.

You and I being Aussies, this was quite an issue last year. Some still want a big Australia, but I think the majority consensus is moving toward preserving our way of life and trying to limit ourselves to grow no larger. Hard to see happening, but I live in hope of a small Australia.

Which comes back to where I was thinking that something big could happen, we can't continue like this that is a fact.

Indeed but I think the aforementioned Germany is a prime example, It went well, so we jumped on the bandwagon, and I hear the septics are considering a solar scheme similar to the one that got so many panels on houses here. They would be crazy not to. Grids need propping up just like they do here, but if you reduce that load and put a million little power plants out there your in a win win situation. The Government got us to save energy, and fix their problems at out expense, and made a deal whereby many where happy to do so!

A Government would be crazy to miss the opportunity IMHO. All they need to do is the same they did here. Jack up the price of electricity so nobody can afford it, and have to either downsize or get solar. Electricity has gone up something like 73% here in the last 5 years. I think the Government should be in court over that!

But all in all, we are doing something, that is what I was trying to get across to Ryegrog. We do not just destroy and move on. Animals do the environment no more favours than we do. Humans are not as bad as so many make out. I feel you and I are on the same page.

Cheers.

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LOL, cranky little so and so aren't ya!

They do destroy the planet. How many cattle methane management programs do our bovines have in place?

What we are is man. There is not 6 billion of anything on earth other than people. If ELephants managed to rise to such a number I bet they would not give a hoot what plants they trample out of extinction, what their numbers are doing to the atmosphere, or so much as put their waste away. We do all that because we are managing the systems around us. Again, you are talking like 1% of the planet, the fat cats who make an easy buck. That is not by any means humanity at all. That is a contingent that bucks the system. People do not approve, and people protest.

Elephants ond Dolphins rely on the ecosystem, they do naught for it. Because you do not see widespread damage only means there is not all that many of them. How many Porpoise breeds are extinct because Dolphins kiled them? We will never know. Animals will drive another species to extinction for their own benefit. We try to find enough for us, and animals, and structure our daily life to accomodate both. How many species did the T Rex stop from evolving to a modern standard? Do they care? The earth relies on all of us too you know. That is how it becomes what it is. We fertilise, beautify, manipulate and create. What do animals do? Eat, sleep kill and die. No morals, no accountability, nothing. We are trying to do something.

After your above post, you have me more confused than anything. If you think you do not sound like you hate humanity, then you are wrong.

No we do not. Damage happens in the path of progress. We are the only species that ever cleaned up after themselves. We have a conscience. Well most do.

Yes it is banned at work (I am in charge of IT at work so bloody oath is is banned), but at home I have had it blocked at my router because my kids abuse it. I said this in another thread, you must have missed it.

Shame on your for chastising someone without all the facts!

LINK

ScienceActivists Want to Turn Ocean Trash Patch Into Hawaii-sized Green Nation

g15673_Recycled_Island.png

WOW! You spend too much time in the closet with your inflated ego.

I provided 2 links for proof on what's happening to this planet and you

disregard them and call me a hate monger. With you it's not about

right or wrong, it's about winning an argument .

It might be all Peaches & Cream in your tiny little world but you need to

get out of the house.

Here's a new avatar befitting for you.

post-103357-0-65396200-1350472169_thumb.

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I don't think so.

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WOW! You spend too much time in the closet with your inflated ego.

How dare I have a conversation with you? LOL, it's not even my information, I just read more than you do, obviously.

Do you normally get upset with everyone that knows something you don't? Just going by your posting, you seem experienced...........

I provided 2 links for proof on what's happening to this planet and you disregard them and call me a hate monger.

I provided links that offer a more complete perspective. I take it you did not like the link about the Garbage Patch?

Well, yes, you sound like an angsty teen who thinks the world owes them a favour. You think all humans do is destroy, that is a bleak and unhealthy outlook, LOL, and you are telling me to get out more often. That is funny!

Why did you not respond the the links and give a sensible argument? Why opt to go on the personal insult path as opposed to revealing evidence?

Because you are a sore loser. I suspect your next move will be to incorporate smilies with your bolding? You could maybe try bolding and red? That will teach me!

With you it's not about right or wrong, it's about winning an argument .

I do not think so, I conceded to Orcseeker and actually apologised for ranting at him because I was a bit wound up from people like you. And that was my mistake. I do not know why it bothers me that some people insist in remaining ignorant, I guess I think you have the right to deliberate ignorance, but as a human, I think you are letting us all down.

It might be all Peaches & Cream in your tiny little world but you need to get out of the house.

I never said that. I said a few spoil it for many, and you seem to think those few are the many. People do a lot of good too.

LOL, I am in my 40's and grew up without the Internet. I know more about the outdoors than you could ever possibly realise! And I grew up in rural Australia!!

Good God Man! Do you think that a bright outlook is from sitting behind a computer? That is so ridiculous it is really funny!!!! Have a think about that line for a minute.

21%2520KB.jpeg

And I actually really did!

Here's a new avatar befitting for you.

How mature! That certainly convinces me that your argument is valid. Well I'm sold, We are all going to hell in a hand basket, get me a good thick rope so I do not have to live in this deep dark planet of evil humans destroying every inch as soon as they have the chance!!

My my Ryegrog, you did let me down so! I expected a decent debate, or at best conversation. Poor effort mate. You ought to be ashamed. Terrible rebuttal. Is that really the most you are capable of?

tumblr_m0d2c07iRw1qcqm5r.jpeg

Edited by psyche101
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I agree, however weeding these shady types will take time, no two ways about it. There is only so many places to rape, and eventually they have to be weeded out. I think that is just statistics? As more people become aware of how damaging these individual are, I think it will be harder and harder for them.

I think it will require international intervention or pressure for these things to be done. However, do not fret, there are people in those countries who are also recognising this, I have visited an orangutan rehabilitation center and safe haven in Sabah, Malaysia. Things like that are run by the people there who go out of their way to help in big ways.

I did not know we sold that here. I am the only one in the family that eats Tuna, so we do not have it in the house much and I have not noticed the "hook caught" on the label when I buy myself a can. I will keep an eye out for it, thank you for the heads up.

No problems :) I believe greenseas only does hook and line. The others get theirs from Thailand (giant net fishing), as you can imagine is a poorly policed and terribly corrupt country at the moment.

Very aware. I grew up a bit west of the Darling Downs on a broadacre farm, we ran Sheep, Dairy, and crops. Watermelon was a big one (you know where I grew up now :D )

I actually have no idea haha. I'm a Victorian. I've only recently appreciated the true beauty of our country's landscape and was not interested in travel or geology of it at all. Especially our flora.

No, again, this makes perfect sense, we are in a world that is an a never ending learning cycle. I agree with all of this. Who can say no to a quick buck? The repercussions are rarely properly understood at the onset of any enterprise.

The ignorant are slowly being weeded out... Slowly. Still I would hate to see any avoidable loss of species in the meantime. These are fauna and flora that do possess a life and needlessly lose it.

May I apologise. I was a bit snarky after debating some of the more "difficult" posters (not you Rye, you're OK with me) I was probably a bit crankier than I should have been. And I have been doing some stupid long hours of late. This place helps me wind down. I do believe I agree with pretty much everything you have said including the above. Although there are more than just the Fat Cats I'd like to see disappear at the click of a finger ;) Like bad criminals, religious fundies, and perhaps the deliberately ignorant :w00t:

It is absolutely no problem. I've seen you on these forums for quite a while and know you mean well. UM is probably of my greatest finds on the Internet. Definitely 100% agree with you on the rest, ah what a world that would be.

Surely you have noticed a massive increase in Solar in Australia over the last 2 years? It went nuts for a bit there, I took advantage myself and put a decent system on the roof. I think we are all getting there, someone has to dive in first is all I think. I have seen proptotypes of future panels, and the future looks bright.

I think each country should seek their own answers. I think New Zealand could benefit from geo-thermal, Tassie and most of the Southern states should benefit from Ocean driven power plants, of which there are many great designs. I think it is a relatively new technology, newer than the Internet. so it is just a matter of time.

LED lighting is going well too, Thats took some time to get of the ground, but it is quite viable now, and an excellent alternative to incandescent lighting. Fraction of the power. Whole houses are being lit by what one or two light bulbs used to draw.

Oh yes I recognise the big government initiative on solar power. Not sure if you've heard or seen pictures of the Greenough River Solar Farm, but definitely have a look if not, our biggest solar plant in Australia. Though this may seem like quite an effort on our behalf, our reliance on brown coal still has the largest market share by quite a big fraction (90%+) last time I checked.

I would link an image of a graph comparison between Australia and Germany in terms of sustainable power but I can't seem to find it. We flounder on less than 10% whereas Germany's majority of power is from sustainable energy if I remember correctly.

LEDs definitely have my vote, from TVs to torches. So much more efficient AND effective. The government have had some initiatives which I'm sure you're aware of here to give everyone free flouroescent globes. I think it is time they did the LEDs.

I am pretty sure in many of the farming communities that this is a centuries old practise. 3 years crop rotations was common in the middle ages. We still do it as far as I know. We did where I grew up.

Oh yes I have heard of crop rotations, but the native Americans respected the land completely from animals to the trees. I think you will find many great quotes notable native Americans have made as well as some of their sayings to be very wise.

I have read cute stories in the paper, but they make it there because they are a rare story. It is not normal for a species to help another species, unless a symbiotic relations ship is in plave, and again, that tends to depend on the environment providing resources.

That is true but we as humans have more resources than we need, so if any animal on this world is to help anything it is us.

If they followed the same industrial revolution, I'd like to think that they would do the same. But I do not think such is possible until a certain state of intelligence is reached. I think we all have to learn by example, and I like to think intelligence gives us that conscience required to give a damn.

On that note it would be quite interesting to see how other creatures would evolve taking some of the core beginning as us. Perhaps could have developed a new energy source or whatnot.

Hmm conscience in terms of other animals would be a hard thing to identify. I guess some animals seem to portray guilt if they've done something wrong so it could support the evidence of a conscience.

We are very much in agreement, I have been thinking the same thing. Oil is not sustainable, and many people have been working hard at this for a long time. My big wonder is will new technology integrate into our current way of life, or will we have to adapt to it?

I believe we will always find an alternative, but we do only have so many resources on this planet and for them to reform once again would take millions of years. We do have current alternatives now, such as hybrid cars which we could also get to run on sustainable energy. The problem with that is, right now the production of such cars requires large amounts of petroleum fuel from material extraction to car assembly.

Thanks for your response, my manners were not around when we first spoke, and I have misjudged you terribly. My apologies. You did not have to be as nice as you were in your reply, I cannot help but respect that.

It is absolutely fine psyche. I greatly appreciate your respect and your apology :) I'm glad there is no bad blood between us. If I ever came off as rude or such I apologise as well.

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I have been involved in breaking horses. I always thought they were pretty indifferent, but out West we have no Elephants, my experience is limited there, so I will have to take your word on that. :D

It is because an Elephant can live on it's own that I would classify them as destructive when they kill people and destroy villages.

I watched a short video on a girl who "broke" a horse in 3 days. A horse that was quite crazy and the previous owners thought it was a lost cause. All she has was a rope, I'm not at all familiar as you on this subject but it was really nothing compared to the elephants.

Say for instance a lion moves into our residential area, it will be removed of course at loss of its life or sedated and taken away. If we impose on the area of a wild animal predator alone, we can expect loss of our life. Since the global overpopulation problem has affected all countries all over the world. Residential and infrastructure is expanding.... Into the area of these animals.

So they will respond as such. They are wild animals and defending their territory (not in regards to rogue animals who simply target humans just cause or gained a taste/easier prey for an old/injured predator).

But I will ask you a question, do you think zoos are ok for purely entertainment purposes?

I would call that two intelligent species and base the commonality on that. I guess it would depend on why we are warring with siad Alien? It might be simply a "police action" :innocent:

Ah I see your point there. But then again, DeGrasse made an interesting point as how our 1% makes that bigger difference of apes from us. Then asks you to imagine us from a 1% difference on the same properties. So would we even be considered very intelligent or seen as a animal as we consider chimps? So is it that war only exists within ourselves?

Yes, but no accountability, and Elephant does not feel bad if it kills a human. Although Elephants express grief when a herd member dies, I think that is the most rudimentary of instinct, and is not what I would consider accountability, which is what one requires to look after the planet.

I heard on the news today an elephant bull calf a keeper help raised from a baby crushed her into a wall and she later went into cardiac arrest (thankfully in a stable condition now but suffering serious crushing injuries) in an Australian zoo. I think you might be right on those aspects.

Agreed, it takes all types, but some people are a little too in touch with the environment............

Hahah yes, I believe one should always keep a balance. But I cannot help but feel some sort of connection (as corny as that sounds) when I am walking amongst trees to the sounds of birds and fresh air.

You and I being Aussies, this was quite an issue last year. Some still want a big Australia, but I think the majority consensus is moving toward preserving our way of life and trying to limit ourselves to grow no larger. Hard to see happening, but I live in hope of a small Australia.

I am 100% with you on this one. Our governments greed for money from rich internationals might make that a dieing dream... I like it how it is now. Maybe a bit less of a population in the greater suburbs of some of our cities. I know of large Indian and African populations here which move into the greater low income suburbs and overpopulation in such areas isn't doing anyone a favour.

I believe there is also a level of corruption in our immigration. There are some Chinese who moved into a house near mine who barely speak any English at all. This is not an isolate incident either. I have heard you can pay $30,000 per person to skip some of the core immigration requirement (under the counter deal of course). I don't blame people from leaving their countries where there is a poor quality of life but if I were to move to some country I would make an effort to learn the language and their customs as well as culture before I made any move. We are a multicultural country and widespread respect for all cultures is important.

Indeed but I think the aforementioned Germany is a prime example, It went well, so we jumped on the bandwagon, and I hear the septics are considering a solar scheme similar to the one that got so many panels on houses here. They would be crazy not to. Grids need propping up just like they do here, but if you reduce that load and put a million little power plants out there your in a win win situation. The Government got us to save energy, and fix their problems at out expense, and made a deal whereby many where happy to do so!

A Government would be crazy to miss the opportunity IMHO. All they need to do is the same they did here. Jack up the price of electricity so nobody can afford it, and have to either downsize or get solar. Electricity has gone up something like 73% here in the last 5 years. I think the Government should be in court over that!

But all in all, we are doing something, that is what I was trying to get across to Ryegrog. We do not just destroy and move on. Animals do the environment no more favours than we do. Humans are not as bad as so many make out. I feel you and I are on the same page.

Cheers.

Not to mention the price of water! Or well... Everything government related. Some European governments are quite open minded. We are very unfortunate on that aspect. Recently a bill have been refused to pass which has been pushed by the medical board of Australia to allow the installation of a safe injecting station for heroin users. There is one in Sydney which has had no deaths, controlled doses so less overdoses, more addicts to seek treatment and using clean needles in a safe environment.

I'm not saying drugs are good or anything but this would save lives and educate and help reduce heroin users.

Though interestingly enough, I heard some drug, DMT (we produce it in our brains every night we go to sleep) is also illegal (everyone in this country breaks the law every time they sleep). I read an article containing in the title something like "dangerous new drug" and laughed. Also quite shameful about how many people would simply side with those who say it without doing any research. This drug also has shown to treat heroin users successfully, sometimes in one dose. Very interesting drug to read about.

Went off on a bit of a tangent there but you see what I mean? The stigma attached to it all. Professionals who have thoroughly researched as well as anecdotal evidence it works in our own country as well as overseas (Sweden). Yet those politicians egos and ingrained unfounded opinions hold things like these back. Being head of IT I am sure you have heard of Steven Conroys Internet filter bill? Another spout of idiocy on the highest level. I'd take up being a politician just to try instill some logic in this mess of a government we have.

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This is a possiblility but isn't it a bit vain to think that we're the most intelligent out there right now? I mean we used to think we were the center of the universe until we found out we were actually orbiting the sun in a giant universe full of many other suns and planets and etc.. so anywho I'm leaning more towards the fact that we're being quarantined by all the other more intelligent beings out there. Read the article "Making Ourselves Alone" its very interesting.

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How dare I have a conversation with you? LOL, it's not even my information, I just read more than you do, obviously.

Do you normally get upset with everyone that knows something you don't? Just going by your posting, you seem experienced...........

I provided links that offer a more complete perspective. I take it you did not like the link about the Garbage Patch?

Well, yes, you sound like an angsty teen who thinks the world owes them a favour. You think all humans do is destroy, that is a bleak and unhealthy outlook, LOL, and you are telling me to get out more often. That is funny!

Why did you not respond the the links and give a sensible argument? Why opt to go on the personal insult path as opposed to revealing evidence?

Because you are a sore loser. I suspect your next move will be to incorporate smilies with your bolding? You could maybe try bolding and red? That will teach me!

I do not think so, I conceded to Orcseeker and actually apologised for ranting at him because I was a bit wound up from people like you. And that was my mistake. I do not know why it bothers me that some people insist in remaining ignorant, I guess I think you have the right to deliberate ignorance, but as a human, I think you are letting us all down.

I never said that. I said a few spoil it for many, and you seem to think those few are the many. People do a lot of good too.

LOL, I am in my 40's and grew up without the Internet. I know more about the outdoors than you could ever possibly realise! And I grew up in rural Australia!!

Good God Man! Do you think that a bright outlook is from sitting behind a computer? That is so ridiculous it is really funny!!!! Have a think about that line for a minute.

21%2520KB.jpeg

And I actually really did!

How mature! That certainly convinces me that your argument is valid. Well I'm sold, We are all going to hell in a hand basket, get me a good thick rope so I do not have to live in this deep dark planet of evil humans destroying every inch as soon as they have the chance!!

My my Ryegrog, you did let me down so! I expected a decent debate, or at best conversation. Poor effort mate. You ought to be ashamed. Terrible rebuttal. Is that really the most you are capable of?

tumblr_m0d2c07iRw1qcqm5r.jpeg

Remember this. How Mature!

post-103357-0-97751400-1350742628_thumb.

Edited by Ryegrog

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LOL, cranky little so and so aren't ya!

They do destroy the planet. How many cattle methane management programs do our bovines have in place?

What we are is man. There is not 6 billion of anything on earth other than people. If ELephants managed to rise to such a number I bet they would not give a hoot what plants they trample out of extinction, what their numbers are doing to the atmosphere, or so much as put their waste away. We do all that because we are managing the systems around us. Again, you are talking like 1% of the planet, the fat cats who make an easy buck. That is not by any means humanity at all. That is a contingent that bucks the system. People do not approve, and people protest.

Elephants ond Dolphins rely on the ecosystem, they do naught for it. Because you do not see widespread damage only means there is not all that many of them. How many Porpoise breeds are extinct because Dolphins kiled them? We will never know. Animals will drive another species to extinction for their own benefit. We try to find enough for us, and animals, and structure our daily life to accomodate both. How many species did the T Rex stop from evolving to a modern standard? Do they care? The earth relies on all of us too you know. That is how it becomes what it is. We fertilise, beautify, manipulate and create. What do animals do? Eat, sleep kill and die. No morals, no accountability, nothing. We are trying to do something.

After your above post, you have me more confused than anything. If you think you do not sound like you hate humanity, then you are wrong.

No we do not. Damage happens in the path of progress. We are the only species that ever cleaned up after themselves. We have a conscience. Well most do.

Yes it is banned at work (I am in charge of IT at work so bloody oath is is banned), but at home I have had it blocked at my router because my kids abuse it. I said this in another thread, you must have missed it.

Shame on your for chastising someone without all the facts!

LINK

ScienceActivists Want to Turn Ocean Trash Patch Into Hawaii-sized Green Nation

g15673_Recycled_Island.png

Looks Good On Paper. If it can be accomplished that would be great.

We need to fix what we broke. Efforts are being made but it's not enough.

More needs to be done. And it not just a few that trashes the planet for everybody.

How do you think the Garbage Patch formed. Not to mention litter you see on land in ditches

or on city streets. But I personally take paper and plastic bottles to a

recycle dumpster so it can be recycled. Less waist is going to the landfill.

I too grew up in a rural area. All my life I would see land owners clear woodlands to make

room for growing crops. And farmers would spray Anhydrous Ammonia to fertilize crops.

That gets in the soil and into the water table. Yes there are some efforts being made like

some farmers fertilize their crops the old fashion way by using the Honey Wagon.

Still though it's not enough.

I know I sound negative to you but I'm just telling it how it is,

People prefer to hear a sugar coated lie over a harse truth.

That's why politicians lie. They know that's what people want to hear.

If a politician was honest and said, if elected he/she would raise taxes

to reduce the deficit, then they wouldn't get elected.

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Ryegrog, I do agree that there is a lot of bad stuff going on. Sometimes I think it is a hopeless cycle that will always be there in full force. But I have taken note, more people than ever before are becoming more aware and doing there part for the greater good so to speak. I see something that makes me lose faith in humanity and there are 5+ others who agree with me for every one of these cases you see pop up.

These ignorants are losing numbers. People are quickly coming more informed and think for themselves. Has it bet been at a higher state in our human history? That is what you must remember.

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Take the Test again I think we just might fail it ! :no:

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It's possible. But the chances of that are actually FAR smaller than there already being life out there :P

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There is no way we are the first. I think it is more likely that we are here because of an alien race. Look at all the cave painting that have been found that look like UFO's or aliens.

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