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Big Bad Voodoo

Russian Nazca lines discovered

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I agree. They made these from the ground, with no real ability to see the big picture, at least as we are able to from the air. They didn't need to fly to make the drawings. With very simple math one can work out things like proportions and scale something up - from there it would jsut be a matter of using whatever they had as a unit of measurement.

My comment was directed mostly at wild speculation that they could see the whole thing from the air when there is no evidence that they had any ability to fly. And a thinly veiled jab (in my post previous to the one you quoted) at those who theorize that the Nazca lines had something to do with signalling alien life. I can be kind of an ass sometimes. Too late to go back and remove the post now.

I reread your post and can see now it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

All too often the "Ancient Aliens" conclusion is put forth. I view it as a cop-out to detemine the real methods and motivation for such structures being constructed.

These theories always imply that our ancestors we a bunch of primates without culture or intelligence beyond the hunter-gatherer idea.

Edited by synchronomy

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Maybe the figure just represents the location for good hunting grounds for that particular animal, as it could once be seen from a distant ridge?

Or a veneration to their "gods" to give luck in hunting.

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Maybe the figure just represents the location for good hunting grounds for that particular animal, as it could once be seen from a distant ridge?

Or a veneration to their "gods" to give luck in hunting.

Seems more likely to me than some of the more "paranormal" explanations for large scale drawings like this. Good thinking.

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It was after they "discovered" vodka.

By the way it looks it was done AFTER vodka was discovered

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But are you aware that todays theory of Nasca lines are based on pure speculation?

So if they could speculate so I can too. And many others. There is no explaination for Nasca lines whatsoever.

We asumed that Nascars made it but thats it.

There's speculation and speculation....

You might want to read this old post of mine, or the pdf I linked to in that post:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=175191&st=75&p=3288325entry3288325

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Abramelin,

Fertility of crops....Thats only theory that scientists propsed so far. They were lacking water. They wanted rain. How do we know that they didn have ballons and gliders? It’s a lie that all Nasca lines are visible from mountains. Nazca amzes me. They didn’t have pyramids or walls as China but they have had lines. Even more funny theory was that was map for underground water supply.

And only thing that made science to conclude that lines are linked with drought were shells on small hums near lines. But among shells there were others things. We also found skeleton of whale near Nasca lines, so why that must indicate that its ritual killing. Maybe they just cut it in pieces there. Or maybe was first time that they capture it so they preserved bones near sacred lines.

We don’t understand their mythology. For what we know maybe Mayas built Nasca lines as some part of their calendar.

Many things we don’t understand. What figures they draw, such as 9 fingers being. I highly doubt that when you drawing something that big you forgot one line.

Why wouldn’t be that playground for some their games. Maybe even ball game. Or even deadly like Aztecs, Maya or Romans have had. How do we know that wasn’t calendar? Or some astronomical record? Or could it be paths like Aboriginals have had?

From wiki:

Songlines, also called Dreaming tracks by Indigenous Australians within the animist indigenous belief system, are paths across the land (or sometimes the sky[1]) which mark the route followed by localised 'creator-beings' during the Dreaming. The paths of the songlines are recorded in traditional songs, stories, dance, and painting.

A knowledgeable person is able to navigate across the land by repeating the words of the song, which describe the location of landmarks, waterholes, and other natural phenomena. In some cases, the paths of the creator-beings are said to be evident from their marks, or petrosomatoglyphs, on the land, such as large depressions in the land which are said to be their footprints.

Bruce Chatwin describes the songlines as:

"...the labyrinth of invisible pathways which meander all over Australia and are known to Europeans as 'Dreaming-tracks' or 'Songlines'; to the Aboriginals as the 'Footprints of the Ancestors' or the 'Way of the Law'.

Aboriginal Creation myths tell of the legendary totemic being who wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path - birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterholes - and so singing the world into existence."''

Why Nazca lines couldn’t be labirinth for some of their games? Or religious purpose and ball game together.

Maybe Giants created those lines? Pedro de Cieza de Leon talked about Giants in area.

"As there is in Peru a story of some giants who landed on the coast at the point of Santa Elena, in the vicinity of the city of Puerto Viejo, I have resolved to mention what I was told about them, as I understood it, without taking into account the opinions of the common people and their various anecdotes, for they usually magnify events larger than life. The natives, repeating a story received from their forefathers from very remote times, say that there came from across the sea on reed rafts that were as large as big ships some men that were so big that an ordinary man of good size scarcely reached up to knees: their members were in proportion to the size of their bodies, and it a monstrous thing to see their enormous heads and their hair hanging dawn about their shoulders. Their eyes were as large as small plates. They say they had no beards and that some of them were clad in the skins of animals, and others only in the dress nature gave them. There were no women with them. On reaching this point, they set up their camp like a village (and even in these times there is a memory of the site of their houses). As they found no supply of water they remedied the lack by making some very deep wells, a labor certainly worthy of record, being undertaken by such strong men as these must have been, to judge by their size. They dug these wells in the living rock until they came to the water, and afterwards they built the wells in stone from the water line upwards so that they would last for ages. In these wells the water is excellent and it is always so cold that it is very pleasant to drink.

"When these great men or giants had thus made their settlement and dug these wells or cisterns, they destroyed and ate all the supplies they could find in the neighborhood. It is said that one of them ate more than fifty of the natives of the land; and as the supply of food was not sufficient for them to maintain themselves, they caught much fish with nets and gear that they had. They lived in continuous hostility with the natives, because they slew the latter's women in order to have them, and they also slew the men for other reasons. But the Indians were not numerous enough to kill these newcomers who occupied their land and lorded it over them; and although they held great discussions about this, they never dared attack them.

"After some years the giants were still in this region, and as they had no women of their own and the Indian women of the neighborhood were too small for them, or else because the vice was habitual to them and inspired by the demon, they practised the unspeakable and horrible sin of sodomy, committing it openly and in public without fear of God or personal shame. The natives say that our Lord God, unwilling to conceal so wicked a sin, sent them a punishment suited to the beastliness of the crime, and when all the giants were together engaged in this accursed practice there came a fearful fire from heaven to the accompaniment of a great noise, in the midst of which a shining angel appeared holding a sharp, bright sword with which he slew them all at a single stroke, and the fire consumed them leaving only a few bones and skulls, which God allowed to remain unconsumed as a token of the punishment. This is the account they give of the giants, and we believe that it happened, for it is said that very large bones have been found and still are found thereabouts and I have heard Spaniards say they have seen pieces of teeth which they thought must have weighed half a pound when whole, and who had also seen a piece of a shin-bone of wonderful size, all of which bears witness to the truth of the incident. In addition to this one can see the places where the sites of their villages were, and also the wells or cisterns they made. I cannot state whence or how these giants came there.”

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To learn something we must act like pupils. Science still lurks for answers for those lines around the world. Archaeologists and historians have to learn a lot.

Its like anthropology. We have college just so that european and north american cultures can understand other cultures.

In our culture one who see hallucination and believe in them is called mentalcase. While in amazon he is Ayahuscaero. Shaman.

Trope de elite of their society. And guess what, those same anthropologists who claimed 50 years ago that Shamans are nuts are in humble way studied cultures of different people

and when they came for example in Amazon first with who they talk? With Shaman. Ayahuascero. All new branch of college was founded to understand other cultures. Why are they so different then we?

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The L, you talk about 15,000 years...

From the site you copied some of the photos from, I learn these petroglyphs are 700 years old.

http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/strange-geoglyphs-discovered-beneath-clearcut-amazon.html

http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/amazon-road-workers-find-ancient-earth-carvings.html

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Abramelin,

Fertility of crops....Thats only theory that scientists propsed so far. They were lacking water. They wanted rain. How do we know that they didn have ballons and gliders? It’s a lie that all Nasca lines are visible from mountains. Nazca amzes me. They didn’t have pyramids or walls as China but they have had lines. Even more funny theory was that was map for underground water supply.

<snip>

You should read that pdf I mentioned in a former post.

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You should read that pdf I mentioned in a former post.

I will.

But how do they date trenches? Science cant even agree when Sphinx was made. Or Greek Pyramid. Greek Pyramid by last research is older then Great Pyramid.

Nasca civ. was from 100 Bc-700 AD. So far in all papers water-lines connection was based on shells near lines.

Only way that we connect lines to Nasca were same style on pottery made by Nascans. How do we know that they didnt see whale on ground then draw it on pottery.

Not all geoglyphs are seen from mountain. Thats first lie which I often read on UM.

We dont understand their mythology which is important. It isnt how we see lines but how Nascans seen them.

Why did they made third eye on skulls?Why burried in sitting position?

Why dd they done animals then geometric signgs and lines? How do we know that same people do it?

10 000 BC where are Nasca lines were green hills ...plenty of evidence like snails and (prapor). They cultivate potato and corn.

Its logic that Nascans reach peak early then when it becomes desert, imo.

Water story was bad because in 400 AD we see that Nascans start made wells while lines where much older.

Why couldnt Nascans made Cahuachi pyramid on existing lines to made their sacrifice?

We believe that Huari destroy Nascans but there is no sign of war...

Lines might be open ground temple and play ground.

I also read once one theory how Trapezoids are made in order that you see them as cube from one point ar mountain and there is they holy place.

Maybe I rushed about Amazon lines but Im not rushing when saying that we dont understand Amazon cultures 15%.

They were more sophisticated then we think they were/are.

Shaman hand will always be upper hand then Anthropologists hands.

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You are forgetting that not that long ago they found the remnants of the culture responsible for creating the Nazca lines. They lived nearby, but I can't remember their name right now, but what I do know is that they were of much more recent times than you suggest.

Another thing: this Johan Reinhard was present when native Chileans created similar petroglyphs.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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You are forgetting that not that long ago they found the remnants of the culture responsible for creating the Nazca lines. They lived nearby, but I can't remember their name right now, but what I do know is that they were of much more recent times than you suggest.

Never heard about it. But how did they conect that culture with lines. Did they have same glyphs on pottery as Nasca?

Could it be that they simply came on lines and copy glyphs to their pottery...?

I think that Nasca lines will remain enigma forever. We will never grasp it.

Some things our western minds can grasp.

Take example for Ayahuascero because I mention them in this thread and we spoke once about them in thread called Ayahusca.

There I said how is extraordinary that they even knew to creat Aya. And it is extraordinary.

You answered that is method of trying and failure.

You see thats typical western view. "Who cares what that Shamans told I know how they got it..they try and failed untill one made it. Who cares? Give us moleculs, show us plants and adios muchachos."

Well, thing is that Ayahuscaero story is more logic then our western explaination. Shamans told that plants told them.

Now lets play math here...

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I mentioned thread I said that they knew exactly from which two plants they must took parts to creat Aya. Parts, Imagine. But to make it simple lets say that they need just two plants.

I earlier said two plants from 20 000 plants. I was wrong.

They need to choose two plants from 80 000 plants. Huge number. Now chance to hit right combination is 1: 64 billion. Imagine. If they have used method of trying then there wouldnt been human kind at all. We will all be dead from Shamans experiment.

Jungle in Brasil and Peru is older then Europe wood. Europe wood is 10 000 BC. Amazon forest is over 20 000 BC. There was no ice there.

In one hectar in peru they found 314 different plants. While in whole Europe we have cca 250 spicies of plants. Brasil and area is epicenter of biodiversity.

No I will ignor thing that you need to know what do you cook for your magic potion. Root, seeds ,leafs.

But fact that you will not get Ayahuasca unless you cook it for 12 hours tells all.

12 hours for cooking. If they tried to cooked single 80 000 plants and drink it then I think we have evidence that we have humans early in America then we used to think.

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Heh, I think I am one of the few here with real experience with a Peruvian shaman and his o'opo.

Yep, you feel like you fly over the jungle, and it feels great (that is, after you threw up all your guts, lol).

And yes, taking into account these people lived in the Amazon jungle for millennia, trial and error must have been the way they found out what herbs were good, bad, or spiritual 'enlightening'.

=

The culture did indeed have patterns depicted on their pottery that were the same as the Nazca petroglyphs. These people were in contact with people from the Amazonian jungle and with people living at the coast of the sea. And that's why you find petroglyphs depicting monkeys, kolibris and spiders, along with petroglyphs depicting orcas and fish and whatnot.

Did they simply copy the Nazca lines? Well, then - if I follow your theory - they must've had balloons?

No, they were the ones who created them, using a simple method. No aliens, no giants and no balloons were needed.

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Ayahuasceros told that plants told them. Spirits. Their theory of source of knowledge contradicts our.

Shamans all over world got into trance and from there they made amazing conclusions. How come that Shamans in all cultures Inuits, African , Amazon looked for different state of mind for their vision and spiritual world.

Ayahusaca allow Shamans to knowledge about microbiology. Its irational but quantum physic is irational too but because western scientist claim it we believe them....

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That's the way they explain what they experience. "The plants told them" is what we would call "I was under the influence of drugs".

It's nothing but explaining according to your culture and knowledge.

If you are a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, you'd say it was 'God' or 'Satan' who 'told' you.

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"Spirits"... you DO know that is an old name for any (strong) alcoholic brew, right?

I would have been a great 'shaman', lol.

+++

EDIT:

Some Sufi groups use the word 'drunk' when being inspired (inspirited?!) by God.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Heh, I think I am one of the few here with real experience with a Peruvian shaman and his o'opo.

Yep, you feel like you fly over the jungle, and it feels great (that is, after you threw up all your guts, lol).

And yes, taking into account these people lived in the Amazon jungle for millennia, trial and error must have been the way they found out what herbs were good, bad, or spiritual 'enlightening'.

Chance for that is 1: 64 billion that they guessed. And we not talking about Ayahuasca. Same thing with Currare. Poision darts to paralyze animals.

Aya is their teacher. Every plant for them have like seal. Mother. Spiritual being. They often watched double snakes which Jeremy Narby even call DNK because of double helix.

Every plant have essence of being. So that they saw which spiritual beings are best to mix and then search plants is more logic to me then that they guess one combination from 64 billions.Ayahuscaero spoke about how spirits adores tobaco. They healed with smoke...They dont smoke tobaco like we. They overdose themselves.

Btw spirit of tobaco. Mother or essence is most terryfing spiritual being you can met under trans state in whole native american world.

I knew that you tried. I also knoe one girl. She told that it was like television. Simply. That all pictures ,beings and stuff went in front of her but she was aware. She was very lucid and could learn from expireinces. She stayed two months in Brasil.

People who tried LSD spoke about mixing of colors, men could look like rats lizards and pink rabits. Thats why LSD is called pseudo haluconigetic.

But LSD to become hallucionegtic we must drink 100 mG. But when we drink 25 mG our senses become sharper and thats it.

So if 25 made us sharper is picture under 100 right one.? anyway I went offtopic.

Thing is that Ayahuasca is mystery. We will never grasp it. We made colleges to train people to understand shamans yet we failed.

Shamans will always beat Anthropologists. Now what does tell us? Who is smarter and wiser?

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L, I am talking about MILLENNIA of experience.

Do you have any idea how much people can learn from experience during that time?

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That's the way they explain what they experience. "The plants told them" is what we would call "I was under the influence of drugs".

You could be no doubt about it if you wanted to become one.

Plant spirit., essence told him. They spoke with spirits under different state of mind. And they brought all kinds of medicine.

There is three way to become shaman around world.

1. That you hear voices as child. That you have dreams. So you are born.

2. That you are near death. you healed yourself so you know how spirit can heal so you heal other.

2. That you are trained. That kind of Shamans are amazon shamans. They take Aya countless time untill they grasp obverse of time.

L, I am talking about MILLENNIA of experience.

Do you have any idea how much people can learn from experience during that time?

64 billions couldnt.

Edited by the L

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I just become Alien Abducter. :alien:<_<

When humans came in Amazon forest?

Edited by the L

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Jesus. L, I have LIVED with these guys. You talk books, I talk living there.

And they thought I was some kind of weird 'gringo', little bit nuts and so kind of suitable for conveying their message/belief to.

I'll tell you what: these guys knew a goddamn lot about herbs and their effect, but they had a way of explaining these effects that is not ours.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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64 billions couldnt?

What 64 billions?

Ah, don't tell me: Villoldo?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Archaeologists and historians like to think that we know much. But so the people in 11 century. Or in 15. Or 18 or 19.

Mythology is often debunked. Yet we found Troy. Bible is debunked. Yet we have evidence of Great Flood.

In Mesopotamia we can see which citiey were before flood which not.

In 2001 BBC spoke how we found with ( infrared?) satelite image new river around Indus valley civilization.

That is mythical Saraswati river mention in Vedic and Mahabharata.

We still dont understand how climate cause civilization?

Shadow river in Saudi Arabia which probably cause flood in Sumer...

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