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markdohle

Fatima

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Fatima

When younger I was interested in Fatima, then I 'outgrew' it, well a foolish thought I know. Now I am looking at this again. I got this book from our store here titled: "Fatima for Today: The Urgent Marian Message of Hope". The message is Gospel, and it brings out the importance of how connected with others when we pray we are and how important is to pray for all. Our loved ones, our enemies and those who hate us and yes God; for God hates no one and wants all to come to salvation. The rosary is central to the Fatima message, because we when praying it we seek to delve deeper into the mysteries that we are saying that can be found in the New Testament. I like to say the rosary very slowly, so I never get a whole one in. Or I make a prayer rope with 33 knots and sometimes use it for pondering one of the mysteries.

We bring others with us when we pray, those we may never meet or know. When we pray the "Our Father' and the "Hail Mary" it is good to know that both are universal prayers, no one is left out. In praying these prayers with conscious intent, there is healing of those relationships that we struggle with.

Beads can be very helpful in relaxing the body and mind for when feeling the beads (or knots in my case) glide slowly through the fingers, it relieves physical tension. No one says the Rosary the same, each is unique as it should be. Some say it fast, others slow, some meditate as they pray, others consecrate on the words and some do both. Some pray with scenes from the bible, other us abstract symbols. All are good, for again we are each unique. We are called to love all and to pray for all.

It is much easier to judge and to feel contempt, but that is not the way that Christ Jesus taught us. So when praying, know that you bring many with you. The more conscious one is of that reality, the faster prayer will take on a deeper significance in life. To pray is to breathe, to expand the heart and soul, to grow in love. The reward for loving, is to love even more and deeper and more expansively. Prayer is not about seen results, but about growing in the image we are made in. To pray is to come face to face with ultimate reality and if kept up one will experience a deep healing on ones heart and soul. It is grace, it happens on its own, all we need to is to stay open and grow in love and trust.

When using beads for prayer, it is soon realized that a deeper silence will also come about, and then it is good to allow ones self to stop and just be in the presence of the infinite. For in the end, it is about a union of wills, of love that we all strive towards. At least that is true in the Christian tradition.

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/1586175238

Edited by markdohle
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I believe Jesus gave us teachings and examples we are to follow. I do not go around attacking others for errors in their faith; but this is supposed to be a forum to discuss opinions of what is the truth and proper way to worship God. The Bible says we are to worship in spirit AND in truth. So this forum is for me a weeding out of what is not truth in worship.

Manmade Christian worship has deviated far from the examples in the Bible, most notably the Catholic religion with its many idols of crosses and images of God; and other mediators to pray to other than Jesus such as saints, and they have an infallible earthly High Priest called a Pope, making two High Priests. One on earth and the other in Heaven, who is Jesus Christ. When there was only ever one High Priest. First High Priest was on earth during the Old Testament era. Jesus was not a High Priest until He took the shed blood to heaven. And He ever fills that post as mediator and High Priest. There is to be no High Priest on earth.

Prayer beads could be as helpful as a penciled list of things to pray for; but only if the beads are not required and it costs NO MONEY to obtain one. The harlot church of Revelation sells trinkets and idols and images for her religion. That's what a harlot does --- sells herself. God says to the born again Christians to come out of her least you be partakers of the punishment He is going to exact on her for her sinful practices. Remember, the priests who killed Zacharias, John the Baptist's father, and the other prophets through the ages beginning at Genesis? When the Jews said they didn't do it; but the history was that their spiritual priests fathers did it. And if they had been present, they would not have done it. But Jesus said just because they claim them as your spiritual fathers you are just as guilty by association in the same organization. Therefore, punishments for all those murders will be on you of Jesus' present generation. Which indeed did happen to Israel about 70 A.D.

God bless us all is my prayer.

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I believe Jesus gave us teachings and examples we are to follow. I do not go around attacking others for errors in their faith; but this is supposed to be a forum to discuss opinions of what is the truth and proper way to worship God. The Bible says we are to worship in spirit AND in truth. So this forum is for me a weeding out of what is not truth in worship.

Manmade Christian worship has deviated far from the examples in the Bible, most notably the Catholic religion with its many idols of crosses and images of God; and other mediators to pray to other than Jesus such as saints, and they have an infallible earthly High Priest called a Pope, making two High Priests. One on earth and the other in Heaven, who is Jesus Christ. When there was only ever one High Priest. First High Priest was on earth during the Old Testament era. Jesus was not a High Priest until He took the shed blood to heaven. And He ever fills that post as mediator and High Priest. There is to be no High Priest on earth.

Prayer beads could be as helpful as a penciled list of things to pray for; but only if the beads are not required and it costs NO MONEY to obtain one. The harlot church of Revelation sells trinkets and idols and images for her religion. That's what a harlot does --- sells herself. God says to the born again Christians to come out of her least you be partakers of the punishment He is going to exact on her for her sinful practices. Remember, the priests who killed Zacharias, John the Baptist's father, and the other prophets through the ages beginning at Genesis? When the Jews said they didn't do it; but the history was that their spiritual priests fathers did it. And if they had been present, they would not have done it. But Jesus said just because they claim them as your spiritual fathers you are just as guilty by association in the same organization. Therefore, punishments for all those murders will be on you of Jesus' present generation. Which indeed did happen to Israel about 70 A.D.

God bless us all is my prayer.

All righty then :innocent:

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Hi Mark, If you are going to try focus your mind to quieten it down (bead counting) you ought to try a proper meditation with a proper teacher really, the word Yoga means union . As you like the Tao te Ching why not try Tai Chi (moving meditation) although you should make sure they are affiliated to some thing like the Tai Chi society of America as a teacher should have practiced for a least 10 yrs before teaching and have have a teaching qualification. It has many great health benefits as we get older, flexibility, exercise and of course calming of the mind, some of the Chinese medicine works aswell. I had back problems for years after an industrial injury my doctor put me on diclofenic / pain killers for yrs but when my back went at my Tai Chi class my teacher showed me where to massage and I was cured in days !!! It comes back now and then I just massage again and its gone. People nearly always say I don’t need a teacher, but if you want to be good at anything a teacher/coach is always good. Roger Federa knows loads about tennis but he still has a coach. Anyway get well soon malc

Edited by sutemi
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Hi Mark, If you are going to try focus your mind to quieten it down (bead counting) you ought to try a proper meditation with a proper teacher really, the word Yoga means union . As you like the Tao te Ching why not try Tai Chi (moving meditation) although you should make sure they are affiliated to some thing like the Tai Chi society of America as a teacher should have practiced for a least 10 yrs before teaching and have have a teaching qualification. It has many great health benefits as we get older, flexibility, exercise and of course calming of the mind, some of the Chinese medicine works aswell. I had back problems for years after an industrial injury my doctor put me on diclofenic / pain killers for yrs but when my back went at my Tai Chi class my teacher showed me where to massage and I was cured in days !!! It comes back now and then I just massage again and its gone. People nearly always say I don’t need a teacher, but if you want to be good at anything a teacher/coach is always good. Roger Federa knows loads about tennis but he still has a coach. Anyway get well soon malc

Thank you I will look into it my friend.

peace

mark

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I don't know, the rosary thing confuses me. We are asking Mary to intercede for us with Jesus now? I thought our only mediator period was Jesus Christ? How then did the Virgin Mary get involved? I can't say that it is a deception - I really don't know - but it certainly confuses me. Also because The Bible says that repetetive prayers aren't as effective and well the rosary is about repetition as well isn't it? Can someone clear this out for me?

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I don't know, the rosary thing confuses me. We are asking Mary to intercede for us with Jesus now? I thought our only mediator period was Jesus Christ? How then did the Virgin Mary get involved? I can't say that it is a deception - I really don't know - but it certainly confuses me. Also because The Bible says that repetetive prayers aren't as effective and well the rosary is about repetition as well isn't it? Can someone clear this out for me?

When Jesus was talking about repetitive, he was talking about rote prayers without any thought put into them. The Rosary is a way of calming the mind, the beads help to relieve stress and the main meditations are on Scripture. For Catholics as well as the older branches of the Christian faith, believe that there is one body of Christ, so when one dies, we just go deeper in, but remain a part of the Church. So asking someone, a saint, who has died to pray for me, is no different than me asking you to pray for me. I am not asking you to practice this, but to understand the reasoning behind this practice. When Mary was approached by the angel, he told her she was "Blessed among woman, and full of grace". So yes she hold a special place for Christians. She is with the risen Lord, so she prays for us, and to ask her to pray for us and with us in no way takes away from Christ. All grace comes through him, her honor and glory happens because of his grace.

The Communion of Saints

http://catholicism.about.com/od/thesaints/f/Pray_to_Saints.htm

Like all Christians, Catholics believe in life after death. Those who have lived good lives and died in the faith of Christ will, as the Bible tells us, share in his resurrection.

While we live together on earth as Christians, we are in communion, or unity, with one another. But that communion doesn’t end when one of us dies. We believe that Christians in heaven, the saints, remain in communion with those of us on earth.

So, just as we might ask a friend or family member to pray for us, we can approach a saint with our prayers, too.

The Difference Between Prayer and Worship

Many non-Catholic Christians believe that it is wrong to pray to the saints, claiming that our prayers should be directed to God alone. Some Catholics, responding to this criticism, have argued that we do not pray to the saints but with them.

Both groups, however, are confusing prayer with worship. True worship (as opposed to veneration or honor) does indeed belong to God alone, and we should never worship man or any other creature as we worship God. But while worship may take the form of prayer, as in the Mass and other liturgies of the Church, not all prayer is worship. When we pray to the saints, we’re simply asking them to help us, by praying to God on our behalf, or thanking them for having already done so.

Here is a site to explain devotion to Mary:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/devotion-to-the-blessed-virgin

peace

mark

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Thank you for taking the time to respond, your explanation helps me understand it better. I'm still in the middle on all this, but I don't deny it might true.

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Thank you for taking the time to respond, your explanation helps me understand it better. I'm still in the middle on all this, but I don't deny it might true.

Always a pleasure my friend......

Peace

Mark

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markdohle,

I believe we are only to pray to the Father. However just to be careful I did an extensive word search on pray, prayed, prayer, prayers, prayest, prayeth and praying. I found nothing that would suggest that it is alright to pray to anyone other than God. In fact I have not found any where that would suggest that the dead can hear us. From what I understand, the only advocate we have with the Father is Jesus Christ. Would you please find for me some scripture that will back up the act of praying to Mary or the saints and if possible where it states the dead can hear us. Thank you.

Matthew 6:6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

Luke 11:1-2a "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which is in heaven, Hollowed be thy name."

John 15:16b "...; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

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markdohle,

I believe we are only to pray to the Father. However just to be careful I did an extensive word search on pray, prayed, prayer, prayers, prayest, prayeth and praying. I found nothing that would suggest that it is alright to pray to anyone other than God. In fact I have not found any where that would suggest that the dead can hear us. From what I understand, the only advocate we have with the Father is Jesus Christ. Would you please find for me some scripture that will back up the act of praying to Mary or the saints and if possible where it states the dead can hear us. Thank you.

Matthew 6:6 "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

Luke 11:1-2a "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which is in heaven, Hollowed be thy name."

John 15:16b "...; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Thank you for sharing. I respect your stance and understand it, you just have to try to understand, though I doubt you will believe me, that Catholic accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The saints are saints because of the grace of Jesus Christ, so they still pray for us, being members of the body. So to ask them to pray for us,again so different than asking you to pray for me.

If you don't agree, that is fine with me my friend.

Peace

Mark

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markdohle,

I know that Catholics believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior. I am not disputing this fact. I have read many of your post and have enjoyed them. My question to you was if you could show me some scripture references to back up your religious claims. If not, that is ok. I do not hold it againt you, I would just like to see some scripture on this subject that I may have over looked. Thank you. :)

Edited by Ogbin
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Hi Mark,

Hope you are well. I agree the Rosary (beads) help relax the body and mind. I find it the most beautiful way to pray . For those who don't see it that way because of scripture, then this may help:

http://www.catholic....g-to-the-saints

Edited by Star of the Sea
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Star of the Sea,

The link you have provided says it best according to scripture.

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ jesus;"

Edit: spelling

Edited by Ogbin

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Star of the Sea,

The link you have provided says it best according to scripture.

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ jesus;"

Edit: spelling

Then it goes onto to say in my article: the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator. :)

Edited by Star of the Sea

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markdohle,

I know that Catholics believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior. I am not disputing this fact. I have read many of your post and have enjoyed them. My question to you was if you could show me some scripture references to back up your religious claims. If not, that is ok. I do not hold it againt you, I would just like to see some scripture on this subject that I may have over looked. Thank you. :)

No, there is not I believe. It is a practice that developed in the church early on. Here is another article, if you want to read it. Tradition and Scripture play an equal role in practice I believe for Catholics as well as Orthodox.

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/catholic-articles/devotion-to-the-saints/article/201/sort/relevance/productsperpage/12/layout/grid/currentpage/1/keywords/saints

Peace

Mark

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Fatima and the Virgin Mother reminds me of the old way, before organized religion was The Catholic Church is very pagan based, very pagan based. And because it is, it sort of reassures me that they are because they took from the old way, because the old way wasn't a bad thing.

Does anyone feel that stigmata is real ? I have doubts of it being real., though I could be wrong. I have doubts about Fatima being real too, again , I could be wrong.

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Fatima and the Virgin Mother reminds me of the old way, before organized religion was The Catholic Church is very pagan based, very pagan based. And because it is, it sort of reassures me that they are because they took from the old way, because the old way wasn't a bad thing.

Does anyone feel that stigmata is real ? I have doubts of it being real., though I could be wrong. I have doubts about Fatima being real too, again , I could be wrong.

It is always good to question. Even Catholic's, devout ones are divided on what you have asked above. Read up on Padre Pio, that may help.

Peace

Mark

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Fatima

When younger I was interested in Fatima, then I 'outgrew' it, well a foolish thought I know. Now I am looking at this again. I got this book from our store here titled: "Fatima for Today: The Urgent Marian Message of Hope". The message is Gospel, and it brings out the importance of how connected with others when we pray we are and how important is to pray for all. Our loved ones, our enemies and those who hate us and yes God; for God hates no one and wants all to come to salvation. The rosary is central to the Fatima message, because we when praying it we seek to delve deeper into the mysteries that we are saying that can be found in the New Testament. I like to say the rosary very slowly, so I never get a whole one in. Or I make a prayer rope with 33 knots and sometimes use it for pondering one of the mysteries.

We bring others with us when we pray, those we may never meet or know. When we pray the "Our Father' and the "Hail Mary" it is good to know that both are universal prayers, no one is left out. In praying these prayers with conscious intent, there is healing of those relationships that we struggle with.

Beads can be very helpful in relaxing the body and mind for when feeling the beads (or knots in my case) glide slowly through the fingers, it relieves physical tension. No one says the Rosary the same, each is unique as it should be. Some say it fast, others slow, some meditate as they pray, others consecrate on the words and some do both. Some pray with scenes from the bible, other us abstract symbols. All are good, for again we are each unique. We are called to love all and to pray for all.

It is much easier to judge and to feel contempt, but that is not the way that Christ Jesus taught us. So when praying, know that you bring many with you. The more conscious one is of that reality, the faster prayer will take on a deeper significance in life. To pray is to breathe, to expand the heart and soul, to grow in love. The reward for loving, is to love even more and deeper and more expansively. Prayer is not about seen results, but about growing in the image we are made in. To pray is to come face to face with ultimate reality and if kept up one will experience a deep healing on ones heart and soul. It is grace, it happens on its own, all we need to is to stay open and grow in love and trust.

When using beads for prayer, it is soon realized that a deeper silence will also come about, and then it is good to allow ones self to stop and just be in the presence of the infinite. For in the end, it is about a union of wills, of love that we all strive towards. At least that is true in the Christian tradition.

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/1586175238

My Step Dad was a very spiritual individual. I used to be confused though in his perspective of all faiths. I would call him on the phone being that I moved from the original State which i was raised up in, he was the one i would always go to , seek out when i needed to talk about anything.

I asked him if he believed in Fatima and the Rosary , he replied that he did, though , his trust and belief was not in any one particular denomination ,organized church or those that are not.

I learned so much from him , and even so , he would always tell me that it was me who he learned from.He was so brilliant, so intelligent and so very caring and forgiving to all, but others judged him from the mistakes he had made in life.

Life is such a mystery , it is so spiritual.

What you've said here from your heart is so meaningful , and i just want you to know that i get it , I get what you're sharing with us, and i thank you for sharing.

I too have books on Fatima. One particular book I have I purchased because I too reflect on it in the light which you have expressed.Though, I don't understand why the church has made it out to be such a secretive issue.

Edited by Reann

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It is always good to question. Even Catholic's, devout ones are divided on what you have asked above. Read up on Padre Pio, that may help.

Peace

Mark

Ah yes,Padre Pio. Someone had told me about him one day . They told me to pray to him, that he is a miracle worker . Honestly though, I have difficultly in praying to anyone other than seeking the source we call God . Also, I have never sought out spirit guides as some may do , it just doesn't feel right to me.

I just seek the unseen God everywhere and within my soul. I do trust in Christ but I think in my perspective Christ is not one certain individual alone ,but that Christ is within us all for us to become that love , that light , within . The conscience energy of Christ moves outward from all that are . I see us all as interconnected, and i understand Christ as the source of love we are to be-come , not as one individual only. In this perspective I understand Yeshuas path.

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I know this topic is of Fatima , but being that the catholic Church are more so the keepers of Fatima I just wanted to say that I also think about reincarnation too . I think that maybe the Catholic Church was the first to remove the belief in reincarnation . I do wonder about that too.

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