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seeking8

immortal Souls

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Can you show how external stimuli exist outside of your mind? Whatever you experience - where is it happening?

Who are you responding to? Because it sounds like you think you're talking to youself.

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perhaps you can answer my question on this thread. seems you glossed over it, and i'm truly interested in your response.

i submit again:

if it's helping to bolster this dualistic view of 'reality' where is the blueprint for the actual 'reality' you refer to - if we have a dualistic view of something that something must first exist. who decides what the 'real' reality is?

Apologies for not replying.

The blueprint is whatever 'lens' you use to perceive the Buddha Mind/the Absolute/Universal Consciousness/God. But your (everyone in general) lens is distorted and clouded and so you interpret shapes and shadows as reality.

There is nothing right or wrong about it. It just happens. We create a reality of distinctions and differences, a reality of polar opposites: good and bad, black and white, etc and we invest our very consciousness in these things.

All these things have a relative existence, or we could say, they neither exist nor do they not exist. However, if we become attached to them, suffering will be the outcome, as we try to 'create' something 'outside' of ourselves which we then desire. In reality, there is no outside (or inside). So, try to rid yourself of opposites.

The Buddha Mind is pure, pristine, crystal clear, forever unperturbed. It holds all things but is not affected by them.

Your essential nature is the Buddha Mind.

Many of us are on a spiritual path to rediscovering our true nature, symbolized by reaching heaven, Nirvana, becoming enlightened, etc. The path, however, is a mere expedient, a device for helping us along.

Eventually, we become the path, then there is no path.

As Donovan sang in a song once, 'Then there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is'.

Welcome to Zen!

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Apologies for not replying.

The blueprint is whatever 'lens' you use to perceive the Buddha Mind/the Absolute/Universal Consciousness/God. But your (everyone in general) lens is distorted and clouded and so you interpret shapes and shadows as reality.

when you say 'lens' what are you referring to? and what is this lens distorted and clouded with, or should i say how did it get clouded, or was it at one time not clouded?

the shapes and shadows part of this made me think of plato's cave. (?)

There is nothing right or wrong about it. It just happens. We create a reality of distinctions and differences, a reality of polar opposites: good and bad, black and white, etc and we invest our very consciousness in these things.

i feel it's necessary as humans to see things both negatively and positively (black and white if you prefer). how can we know goodness without it's opposite?

All these things have a relative existence, or we could say, they neither exist nor do they not exist. However, if we become attached to them, suffering will be the outcome, as we try to 'create' something 'outside' of ourselves which we then desire. In reality, there is no outside (or inside). So, try to rid yourself of opposites.

how is it that attachment leads always to suffering? this is do not agree with. suffering is subjective in any case.

you mentioned that we are on this path to find our true nature. i am on my path to find my true purpose, my nature is evident to me.

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The reason I asked this question was my sister died when she was 8 years old I saw her spirit about two weeks after her furanel she seemed really happy and was smiling. This started the idea in my head that are souls are immortal. But I am also confused at if our souls live on do we stay the same in human form? or do we change our form into the other dimension?

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Sounds like they're all in Purgatory. Don't worry, Pope Benedict will bust 'em out! :gun:

If I were a Catholic, I would think I'm in that place called purgatory...instead of being in the Void waiting for the "purification" or deletion of my personality residues for me to be able to merge with God(?). The way I get the Catholic faith is that a person goes to heaven while his identity is still intact, separate from God(?), and God(?) is ever-present, ruling everyone (with a soft glove).

Nirvana is exactly the opposite. One's unique identity is absolutely erased in this reality. Nirvana is totally unreachable from one's material plane of existence and while one is still "aware" of one's personality, uniqueness...separation, as in, "I think; therefore, I am."

In Nirvana (at least the way my configuration has grasped it), anything outside of Godhead(?) doesn't exist, doesn't compute, doesn't reach It's "awareness" unless one goes through the process of Nirvana (speaking of "Our Town"). God(?) is completely clueless about anything outside of Itself.

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"when you say 'lens' what are you referring to? and what is this lens distorted and clouded with, or should i say how did it get clouded, or was it at one time not clouded?

the shapes and shadows part of this made me think of plato's cave. (?)"

We are actually being our true nature all the time, but our realization of that is clouded by our thoughts, emotions and concepts, like dust on a mirror. Our lens is our personal interpretation of that clouded mirror. Yes, Plato's Cave is a good analogy.

"i feel it's necessary as humans to see things both negatively and positively (black and white if you prefer). how can we know goodness without it's opposite?"

Yes, while people are unenlightened, it is a helpful expedient to have moral codes and adjudge things to be either good or bad, just like children have to be told to wash their hands. But, your essential nature is like the sun rising in the void - it is neither good nor bad, though what flows from it (love, mercy and compassion), we would generally adjudge to be good.

"how is it that attachment leads always to suffering? this is do not agree with. suffering is subjective in any case.

you mentioned that we are on this path to find our true nature. i am on my path to find my true purpose, my nature is evident to me."

By being attached to something, you will feel the need to protect it which will produce anxiety if something appears to threaten it, for example, my words challenging others' tightly held beliefs. Whatever it is you are attached to will not bring you fulfillment and you will ultimately lose it, which will cause further anxiety and suffering.

By being attached to something, you are imagining there is something outside of your true self which you need to have.

If your true nature is evident to you, why would you consider that there exists a true purpose 'out there' for you to seek?

There is no Holy Grail to find. You already are the Holy Grail.

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If I were a Catholic, I would think I'm in that place called purgatory...instead of being in the Void waiting for the "purification" or deletion of my personality residues for me to be able to merge with God(?). The way I get the Catholic faith is that a person goes to heaven while his identity is still intact, separate from God(?), and God(?) is ever-present, ruling everyone (with a soft glove).

Nirvana is exactly the opposite. One's unique identity is absolutely erased in this reality. Nirvana is totally unreachable from one's material plane of existence and while one is still "aware" of one's personality, uniqueness...separation, as in, "I think; therefore, I am."

In Nirvana (at least the way my configuration has grasped it), anything outside of Godhead(?) doesn't exist, doesn't compute, doesn't reach It's "awareness" unless one goes through the process of Nirvana (speaking of "Our Town"). God(?) is completely clueless about anything outside of Itself.

From the Buddhist texts I have studied, Nirvana is still within the realms of phenomenal reality, and your true sense of being your true self is not erased. This can be equated with the soul. You are always aware, for that is consciousness - always aware. You can never be 'deleted'.

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The reason I asked this question was my sister died when she was 8 years old I saw her spirit about two weeks after her furanel she seemed really happy and was smiling. This started the idea in my head that are souls are immortal. But I am also confused at if our souls live on do we stay the same in human form? or do we change our form into the other dimension?

There are many mansions in Heaven/Nirvana. You will create the place and the form you feel most happy and comfortable with to share with your loved ones. This earthly 'reality' is only one of many dimensional realities.
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In my religion, souls are taught as immortals. We as living beings do not know if this is true or not. But that is how religion works and that is how faith works. We believe in these things blind folded.

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From the Buddhist texts I have studied, Nirvana is still within the realms of phenomenal reality, and your true sense of being your true self is not erased. This can be equated with the soul. You are always aware, for that is consciousness - always aware. You can never be 'deleted'.

Hi Cantando,

I'm not quoting any Buddhist texts. I'm sharing my experience of the Void and the promise of Nirvana, the way my configuration has grasped it.

Peace.

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Think about it: If God(?) is one, who or what is there to think about?

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Think about it: If God(?) is one, who or what is there to think about?

You've got it in one!

There is nothing to think about.

When all thoughts are cut off, your true face appears.

Edited by Philangeli

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I tell you: The 21st century is a "new" era, indeed.

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I believe that this body is only physical and that our souls inhabit these forms in order to learn lessons such as compassion and remorse.

Once all these lessons are learnt I believe we ascend to some higher form (Not necessarily heaven) where we can then do as we choose.

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The mind creates everything within it, including perceived external reality, all of which is temporal. You conceive of others, who appear to be different, but that is just your lens of perception. You believe 'others' are real, but where are they, if not in your mind?

Actually this is physically incorrect. External reality exists independent of us. We have evolved, as an independent but integrated self aware entity, to perceive, respond to, and interact with all external realities. Our mind does not create them. They would be there exactly the same, if we and our mind never existed to perceive them. We adjust to them and respond to them so tha we do not try to walk through a wall or off a cliff. Others are real independent entities as are rocks trees flowers etc. Oxygen is real try living without breathing it. Water is real. Try breathing it.

Descartes had it wrong because he did not know enoguh about human neurology thought memory or how our brains work. "We exist, therefore we can think. " Not, "We think therfore we can know we exist"

Our physical existence enables, and forms, our ability to think and be aware. Our awareness does not create or verify our existence or that of anything else. The universe, and our world, existed long before we became self aware and conscious of their existence.

Others are where they would be if you; shut your eyes, dropped dead, or ceased existing. Their positioning and existence owes nothing to your recognition of them.

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Well said Mr. Walker :tu:

...of course...there are those who will always make the argument: Well, how do you know...you don't because all you know is what you 'think' and that is all mental.

Without Phyisical...there is no Mental. Without Mental...Physical still is.

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Actually this is physically incorrect. External reality exists independent of us. We have evolved, as an independent but integrated self aware entity, to perceive, respond to, and interact with all external realities. Our mind does not create them. They would be there exactly the same, if we and our mind never existed to perceive them. We adjust to them and respond to them so tha we do not try to walk through a wall or off a cliff. Others are real independent entities as are rocks trees flowers etc. Oxygen is real try living without breathing it. Water is real. Try breathing it.

Philangeli is clearly an advocate of monism or solipsism, in which perception is reality and rejects the scientific notion of an objective reality.

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Philangeli is clearly an advocate of monism or solipsism, in which perception is reality and rejects the scientific notion of an objective reality.

Everybody is an advocate of something...for instance...I am an advocate of Logical Thought

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Well said Mr. Walker :tu:

...of course...there are those who will always make the argument: Well, how do you know...you don't because all you know is what you 'think' and that is all mental.

Without Phyisical...there is no Mental. Without Mental...Physical still is.

Yes. In a sense the metaphysical only exists because of our minds and thoughts. But the physical is always there. Descartes simply didnt have the scientific uunderstandings in his era to appreciate this. We now have a good understanding of brain function and human neurology/physiology . Philosophically it is an interesing pov., but if taken literally it leads us to a dead end.

To appreciate the truth we have to understand that we and our minds are evolved and integrated products of an external environment which preceded us. Our consciousness is a physical product of those evolved capacities.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Philangeli is clearly an advocate of monism or solipsism, in which perception is reality and rejects the scientific notion of an objective reality.

It takes all kinds, and I wont denigrate anothers philosophical beliefs, but to me that is akin to believing in creation.

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How is a soul created in the first place? Egg + sperm?

What is a soul made of? Radio waves? Photons? Can shine? Can go through objects? Invisible?

Answerless questions.

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How is a soul created in the first place? Egg + sperm?

What is a soul made of? Radio waves? Photons? Can shine? Can go through objects? Invisible?

Answerless questions.

Not necesarily. The human soul is a product of our conscious self awareness. That is certain because without self awareness we would not know we had a soul and thus it would not exist. A soul is created in humans by several things. Our capacity to recognise consequence our appreciation of self/other and our capacity to feel empathy for others, being among them. Our soul in very simple terms is how we feel about ourselves.

It is our bio- neurological feedback loop. which includes our conscience, but also much more. Eg our ability to appreciate beauty, to conceptualise love, to recognise and choose compassion. We can grow and enhance our soul, or we can diminish and possibly destroy it.

Our soul dies when we do, because it is a product of our self awareness. BUT it is quite feasible that our self aware consciousness can be stored outside our body. We are only a decade or two from being able to do this ourselves using science. And thus, if it can be reattached to a host or mechanism which activates it again, it can be "kick -started" and become self aware once more.

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I believe that this body is only physical and that our souls inhabit these forms in order to learn lessons such as compassion and remorse.

Once all these lessons are learnt I believe we ascend to some higher form (Not necessarily heaven) where we can then do as we choose.

Lessons you think we need to learn are of compassion and remorse. Who is the Teacher?

Then if we learn these lessons and "ascend" as you say, we can do as we choose.

Doing as we choose, can mean a lot of not so nice things, is that ok?

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You've got it in one!

There is nothing to think about.

When all thoughts are cut off, your true face appears.

Actually, when all "awareness" of your uniqueness is erased, deleted, "burned away," obliterated, destroyed...in the Void, specifically, not just in an ethereal space or existence, the process of Nirvana is, therfore, complete. "Your 'true' face appears." It is, however, not that easy to go through with it. Remember Frodo trying to destroy the One Ring? He couldn't do it. Is it the downfall of man? Think about it, you will be annihilating your past and present collective memory, which make up the story of you -- and for what? Who said that you have to destroy yourself? Did God(?) said that He or She or It is waiting for you to unite? As far as I'm concerned, no one in this world (past and present) has ever seen "God"; otherwise, that one wouldn't be here -- the Holy Spirit is a totally different story altogether. Thing is, your memories will fight to the very end to keep themselves alive in your "awareness." The many promises of the future will hit you like lust as well.

After all, I'm back in this world. Why should you listen to me?

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Actually this is physically incorrect. External reality exists independent of us. We have evolved, as an independent but integrated self aware entity, to perceive, respond to, and interact with all external realities. Our mind does not create them. They would be there exactly the same, if we and our mind never existed to perceive them. We adjust to them and respond to them so tha we do not try to walk through a wall or off a cliff. Others are real independent entities as are rocks trees flowers etc. Oxygen is real try living without breathing it. Water is real. Try breathing it.

Descartes had it wrong because he did not know enoguh about human neurology thought memory or how our brains work. "We exist, therefore we can think. " Not, "We think therfore we can know we exist"

Our physical existence enables, and forms, our ability to think and be aware. Our awareness does not create or verify our existence or that of anything else. The universe, and our world, existed long before we became self aware and conscious of their existence.

Others are where they would be if you; shut your eyes, dropped dead, or ceased existing. Their positioning and existence owes nothing to your recognition of them.

"Others are real independent entities as are rocks trees flowers etc. Oxygen is real try living without breathing it. Water is real. Try breathing it." Amen to that. Why is it that everything I see is "one"? The answer is that God is you and I and the rest. God is every thing and nothing ("no thing" it's the true nature of our "spirit" in the Void). And yet, there is Nirvana...and "presence" (many call it the Holy Spirit, while others, "Flow"). I am your essence. You are me, as one. One and the same through Awakening. To live life like everything is one is another story, however. To be an Awakened being helps to live life like that, but an Awakened person still has some residues (memories) of his or her past Un-awakened state. Sometimes, the transformation process takes time.

Philangeli said, "There is no Holy Grail to find. You already are the Holy Grail. We are actually being our true nature all the time, but our realization of that is clouded by our thoughts, emotions and concepts, like dust on a mirror." Yes and no. If a person had not Awakened earlier, he or she could not have figured that out. It's not philosophical transformation. It's an in-yer-face transformation. "You plant a seed..." Philangeli is right to say these things, however. One should keep in mind, always, that spirituality is about being in the now, not in some future event because the future doesn't exist, at least not yet.

"Others are where they would be if you; shut your eyes, dropped dead, or ceased existing. Their positioning and existence owes nothing to your recognition of them." I totally agree. The good thing about "real" Awakening is the element of Lazarus Syndrome. Death, not just NDE, has a way of upping the ante, so to speak, because it's not just a dream state and wishful thinking.

Peace.

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