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Big Bad Voodoo

Sumerian astronomical knowledge

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Did Sumerians knew that earth is round? Did they consider it to be another planet? Did they knew about Saturn?

20 Squares game or Royal Game of Ur is one of the oldest board games ever and games in general.

As it names said its foun in Sumerian city of Ur circa 2700 BC.

For more info you can look here:

http://www.britishmu...game_of_ur.aspx

Anyway look at board. It looks like stars and could possbly represent nigh sky.

ps121289_l.jpg

Game was played with 3 dices and each players would have 7 circles/spheres which could demonstrate planets. It might be representation of plantes traveling trouhg the night sky.So what number 7 represent?

Sun,Moon,Earth,Mercury,Venus,Mars,Jupiter?

Or maybe without Sun-Mercury,Venus,Earth,Moon,Mars,Jupiter,Saturn?

Or without Earth and Moon we can add Uranus and Neptune.

Its hard to think that board stars represent something other because what was most important to people who invented Zodiac and Calendar.

Stars and Plantes. Night sky. They first tried to made moon calendar. But they were not satisfied. They coudnt control Sun because flat area didnt allow them and they didnt built Stonehenge for that so they turned for Stars.

And if those are stars what 7 circles represents? Planets? What planets?

Edited by the L
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Interesting game, the one that looks like a flower could represent the sun.

Thanks for posting.

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Those are not stars but rosettes. Rosettes were a common artistic motif in numerous Near Eastern cultures, including Egypt. The Egyptians had a very similar game. The other motifs appear to be random geometric patterns of the sort used in architectural decoration.

There does not appear to be any writing on the board, so I don't see how it would work for astrological purposes. I'm not dismissing the possibility that some ritual aspect was involved when playing the game—just as senet in Egypt eventually developed into a sort of ritually significant game—but there doesn't appear to be anything astrological about it.

The PDF on this web page might be helpful to peruse. It doesn't have anything to do with the game board, but as I recall Heiser summarizes how the Sumerians actually depicted stars and perhaps other heavenly bodies.

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I agree with sesh here the board game is not very indicative of the heavens in my opinion.Seems like an ancient version of Ludo.

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Those are not stars but rosettes. Rosettes were a common artistic motif in numerous Near Eastern cultures, including Egypt. The Egyptians had a very similar game. The other motifs appear to be random geometric patterns of the sort used in architectural decoration.

How do you know they are not Stars. You can called it rosettes but that doesnt mean that isnt artistic way of seeing stars. Egyptians were numerous time influenced by Mesopotamia so it doesnt surprise similar motives.

There does not appear to be any writing on the board, so I don't see how it would work for astrological purposes. I'm not dismissing the possibility that some ritual aspect was involved when playing the game—just as senet in Egypt eventually developed into a sort of ritually significant game—but there doesn't appear to be anything astrological about it.

There isnt writting "This is rossete" on board either.

The PDF on this web page might be helpful to peruse. It doesn't have anything to do with the game board, but as I recall Heiser summarizes how the Sumerians actually depicted stars and perhaps other heavenly bodies.

Its site sitchiniswrong.com so I dont know where you going with it. You could link me Cremo is wrong too. This isnt Sitchin idea.

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How do you know they are not Stars. You can called it rosettes but that doesnt mean that isnt artistic way of seeing stars. Egyptians were numerous time influenced by Mesopotamia so it doesnt surprise similar motives.

There isnt writting "This is rossete" on board either.

Its site sitchiniswrong.com so I dont know where you going with it. You could link me Cremo is wrong too. This isnt Sitchin idea.

Ya but we all know that any idea that Sitchin would indorse would be wrong since Sitchin is wrong.So if you wan't to falsify a reasonable theory you have to just say that Sitchin indorsed it. :yes: .

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Ya but we all know that any idea that Sitchin would indorse would be wrong since Sitchin is wrong.So if you wan't to falsify a reasonable theory you have to just say that Sitchin indorsed it. :yes: .

That isnt logic. Because one could bring new element in game and claim same as Sitchin. That new element isnt debunked. Only previous idea on previous "evidence."

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That isnt logic. Because one could bring new element in game and claim same as Sitchin. That new element isnt debunked. Only previous idea on previous "evidence."

I agree with you.Many ideas/theories suggested by Sitchin are also very interesting and credible but his skeptic blanket all of it to be false or wrong.I appreciate the man's work,i was just being sarcastic.

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The board has 20 squares in total.

Now, if it had 12 squares (or 13 in case of a Moon calendar) or 365 squares (days of the year) then there might be an astronomical or even an astrological connection.

So, -L-, can you explain the number 20?

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How do you know they are not Stars. You can called it rosettes but that doesnt mean that isnt artistic way of seeing stars.

It's called "knowledge."

Have some:

sunmoonstar.jpg

On left - typical Sumerian depiction of a star, center - of the moon, right - the Sun.

Harte

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How do you know they are not Stars. You can called it rosettes but that doesnt mean that isnt artistic way of seeing stars. Egyptians were numerous time influenced by Mesopotamia so it doesnt surprise similar motives.

There isnt writting "This is rossete" on board either.

Its site sitchiniswrong.com so I dont know where you going with it. You could link me Cremo is wrong too. This isnt Sitchin idea.

As I explained in my post, the PDF to which I linked was meant to emphasize Michael Heiser's summary of how Sumerians depicted stars. My suggesting the PDF has nothing to do with Sitchin but with the proper interpretation of artistic motifs by a person professionally trained to conduct such interpretations.

See Harte's preceding post on some examples of Sumerian depictions of heavenly objects. In many more contexts, the Sumerians depicted stars as simple circles.

I identified the objects as rosettes because they're immediately identifiable as such. It was an extremely common artistic motif and generally represented a regal, authoritative, or divine status when used in conjunction with architecture or figurative artwork.

This page provides some more information as to how the rosette was used in both Mesopotamia and Egypt.

Although Sumerian knowledge of the heavens was understandably limited, they did conduct astronomical and astrological observation. This object is a resin cast of an actual Sumerian star chart.

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You obviously never read Sitchin's books, or you would not have posted a link to that resin cast, LOL.

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An ancient civilization needed to be good at geometry to find out if the Earth was round, so we have to note the ancient Greek masters, and one that i love the best being Eratosthenes, who conducted experiments to see if the Earth was round, what is strange is nearly 1800 years after his death many still thought the Earth was flat!

http://www.eranet.gr/eratosthenes/html/eoc.html

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As I explained in my post, the PDF to which I linked was meant to emphasize Michael Heiser's summary of how Sumerians depicted stars. My suggesting the PDF has nothing to do with Sitchin but with the proper interpretation of artistic motifs by a person professionally trained to conduct such interpretations.

See Harte's preceding post on some examples of Sumerian depictions of heavenly objects. In many more contexts, the Sumerians depicted stars as simple circles.

I identified the objects as rosettes because they're immediately identifiable as such. It was an extremely common artistic motif and generally represented a regal, authoritative, or divine status when used in conjunction with architecture or figurative artwork.

This page provides some more information as to how the rosette was used in both Mesopotamia and Egypt.

Although Sumerian knowledge of the heavens was understandably limited, they did conduct astronomical and astrological observation. This object is a resin cast of an actual Sumerian star chart.

Though it is not necessarily a rossete,it is a stylised Lotus (a aerial view of a lotus) since it explains the distinctly seperated petals.

lotus-flower.jpg

Cealing Motif of 'Ashtdal-kamal' (Full bloomed Eight petel lotus) in "Dhai Din Ka Jhonpada", Ajmer, Rajasthan, India

30570422.jpg

If you check the motif the Lotus has eight petals on the Summerian board game and since the petals are distinctly seperate and pointed and tapering it is highly unlikely that it is a Rossete.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel

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Did Sumerians knew that earth is round? Did they consider it to be another planet? Did they knew about Saturn?

According to what evidence?
Anyway look at board. It looks like stars and could possbly represent nigh sky.
And the pieces look like flying saucers.
And if those are stars what 7 circles represents? Planets? What planets?

Why don't you just make it up like you've done so far?

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The board game looks wonderful .. However I don't know if it represents the sky or the planets .. It's not necessary to attribute everything to astronomy and astrology ..

However, those Sumerians never cease to amaze me :nw:

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Though it is not necessarily a rossete,it is a stylised Lotus (a aerial view of a lotus) since it explains the distinctly seperated petals.

lotus-flower.jpg

Cealing Motif of 'Ashtdal-kamal' (Full bloomed Eight petel lotus) in "Dhai Din Ka Jhonpada", Ajmer, Rajasthan, India

30570422.jpg

If you check the motif the Lotus has eight petals on the Summerian board game and since the petals are distinctly seperate and pointed and tapering it is highly unlikely that it is a Rossete.

The number of petals is not really relevant to the meaning behind the motif. The Egyptian rosette often shows seven petals, but this has no effect on meaning, either. The motifs on the board game likely mean nothing in and of themselves, but I was drawing on cultural meanings in other contexts of the rosette.

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Hi kmt_sesh,

Geometric shapes, rosettes, five and eight pointed stars has some confusion going backwards in time, by different cultures it can mean Venus or Sirius, or both!

I hope link below works if not do a search for "venus and sirius some unexpected similarities"

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/stross/papers/venusir.rtf

Examples can be links below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna

Please scroll down link below to "FLAG", here the eight pointed star means "SIRIUS"

http://www.azembassy.ro/eng/Azerbaijan/general_info.htm

Obviously some cultures value the five pointed star the same way as having dual symbolism to both Venus and Sirius, stars and geometric shapes such as rosettes can be connected!

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The number eight in belief has effected modern history ie numerology, events in modern history that have been effected are below:-

The Beijing 2008 Summer Olympics started on 08/08/08 at 8pm, link below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture

Please scroll down to "EIGHT" on above link.

Another example would be 8888 uprising, link below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8888_Uprising

Burmese astrology is based on the number eight, link below:-

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/burmese-zodiac-animal-signs.html

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The number of petals is not really relevant to the meaning behind the motif. The Egyptian rosette often shows seven petals, but this has no effect on meaning, either. The motifs on the board game likely mean nothing in and of themselves, but I was drawing on cultural meanings in other contexts of the rosette.

everybody_5.jpg

The above represents the typical rosette variations and most of them don't have a tapering pointed petals,(rosette=rose pattern).

The reason i pointed it out is because it serves a purpose to establish cultural similarities and for us to better understand the meaning of the motif.The lotus motif was common in near eastern civilizations and Indian subcontinent

The number of petals as pointed out by Monk do serve a numerological and symbolic purpose.

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Hi Harsh86Patel,

I see you come from India, i love Gandhi however to be a politician sometimes you have strange associations, like the Theosophical society, the Golden Dawn and early members of the UK Labour party, i have to giggle when i see video link below:-

[media=]

[/media]

Not everything that secret societies do are evil, but they love aligning to Sirius and Alnilam, Belt of Orion, please read link below, three pages:-

http://www.mauricefe...&t=1940&start=0

However i'm not that keen on the influence now of New Welcome Lodge, link below:-

http://en.wikipedia....w_Welcome_Lodge

It is possible that Gandhi chose 8th August 1942, to make his "Quit India Speech" for numerology factors regarding 8th day 8th month, we will never know:-

http://en.wikipedia....it_India_speech

Please scroll down link below to "Pre-Independence Era:-

The first Indian National Congress was held in Bombay, now called Mumbai between 28th to 31st December 1885, midnight day marker was chosen while Alnilam was in the centre of the sky, during this period.

http://en.wikipedia....tional_Congress

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1st_INC1885.jpg

The All India Muslim League were formed in Dacca, now Dharka, Bangladesh on 30th December 1906, midnight day marker was chosen again, while Sirius was in the centre of the sky, link below:-

http://en.wikipedia....a_Muslim_League

Astronomy Graph showing both on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=6792&mode=view

Not all secret societies are bad, and indeed some did help India in its struggle for independence, but it makes you wonder how much history is down to belief in the stars and numerology, doesn't it?

Edited by monk 56
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everybody_5.jpg

The above represents the typical rosette variations and most of them don't have a tapering pointed petals,(rosette=rose pattern).

The reason i pointed it out is because it serves a purpose to establish cultural similarities and for us to better understand the meaning of the motif.The lotus motif was common in near eastern civilizations and Indian subcontinent

The number of petals as pointed out by Monk do serve a numerological and symbolic purpose.

The oldest attestations of the rosette of which I'm aware date to around the fourth millennium BCE and come from Egypt and Sumer. I am not aware of any evidence from these two cultures that the number of petals has any specific meaning—it's the overall motif that's significant. Of course, I cannot say the same for all of the other peoples who used to rosette, which included peoples all the way from Central Asia to the central Mediterranean.

Also, I cannot state that the rosette represents a lily or lotus in pharaonic Egypt, which had distinct iconography for such flowers and it tended to differ from the rosette.

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No doubt i'm playing with you Kmt Seth,

A lot in reserve, mathematics with huge ancient pyramids matters, the concepts of load bearing bricks we find in geometry, thus how we were able to build that we can observe now, many centuries after.

Plato didn't invent Platonic solids, involved in building, indeed this comes from much earlier.

Please make as much fun as possible, but i might bite you later, ha ha? You need to work hard to find link with mathematics!

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Okay I admit its streched but thats why I started thread. To hear other people thoughts.

Thanks on your contribution.

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