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Bling

Why did God create us if he knew we would sin

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Free will determines the consequences of decision,s and is necessary for choice, growth, development of human sapient mind. A parent does not, and cannot, control the way a child thinks or acts. It can educate, teach, discipline, model and mentor, behaviour and thougths, but it cannot compel either. That is biologically and neurologically impossible .

Now theoretically god could have created androids without free will who could not think of a destructive thougth, or who if they did, could not act on it. Isaac Asimov discussed this dilemma at length in many novels, with his three laws of robotics

To develop and fulfil human potential we have to be able to see the consequences of our actions and to be able to chose which consequence we choose In turn this devlops atributes like conscience, empathy, and the ability to choose love. I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess. We still have options and choices. We can still be good people, and we can still create a paradise for all people on earth.

There is no need for poverty let alone starvation on this earth, if we choose to eliminate it. All the non natural flaws in the world are human in origin.

ANd are you suggesting that god makes nature completely benevolent. No storms no volcanoes Etc? And how about natural death and grieving Why not eliminate them as well ?

OH thats right, originally he did, if you believe the creation story. And in that story man undid ALL those benefits by opening pandora's box. But there was no compulsion on him to do so. No inevitablity that he would. In the bible story it suggests tha tgod created beings onmany plamets over a long pereiod of time Only on earth did man fall from grace by choosing his dark side.

The point is that we have choice, and thus we can ALWAYS choose for good, for constructive and beneficial outcomes. There is no need for human evil to exist at all. It only exists because we allow it to, in our own hearts and minds.

Like humans, in the bible narative, satan and one third of the angels chose the destructive and negative path. Again they had a choice. The consequences of their actions were a result of the choices they made. In humans today, we have the same choices when confronted by evil and destructive influences and temptations.

In resisting them, we become more disciplined, stronger and more empowered individuals. We grow into human adults in a spiritual, physical, and emotional sense. The power to put aside evil and destructive tendencies is an incredibly empowering and liberating force which only exists because we have a free choice.

God is no more omnipotent than humans albeit, being more advanced he has greater abilities. But we are also omnipotent in potential. Whether we admit it or not we know the consequences of our behaviours. We can plot various futures for ourselves and make them come to pass, by the choices we make at any time. In that respect we are as god is.

You haven't mentioned the part about God creating the bad things in the first place.....I said....

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children?

If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.

And also you said: "I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess"......er don't you read the news! Yes there are some great things in this world and I love my life, but I'm not blinkered by my great life as to think the worlds problems don't exist. I don't think mankind will just sort everything out that easily - yes there is no need for poverty, but can you imagine all the billionaires giving their money to the Third World? Who would orchestrate such a task? Mankind has been created with flaws, mankind didn't start the fire.

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Referring to the bolded part we would be the lobotomised version of ourselves - no thank you.

No we wouldn't, that's the whole point!!!! But we would make decisions that are good for us either way, if God had created it like that, but he chose not to. If our way of living is so right now and having suffering is a positive thing because it helps us evolve, then why is God ultimately going to get rid of pain, death and war, and let his followers live in a perfect heaven and earth?? Why wait?

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No we wouldn't, that's the whole point!!!! But we would make decisions that are good for us either way, if God had created it like that, but he chose not to. If our way of living is so right now and having suffering is a positive thing because it helps us evolve, then why is God ultimately going to get rid of pain, death and war, and let his followers live in a perfect heaven and earth?? Why wait?

You are deciding the nature of God based on the Abramaic teaching presented in the OT alone - what if he is bigger than what could be interpreted of him by those folk? Is this a blast against religion and religious zealots or against the concept of a God? Because those are really two different discussions.

Besides, "The Kingdom of Heaven" is within by what is said in the NT - not going to be within at some future date but within right now. Look at my avatar quote, this notion was not isolated to the Israelites or Christians God, not by a long shot. So why wait indeed? Why not see if we have found what we need to unlock the doors to that "Kingdom". (note: I use the term "kingdom" for lack of a better term in language/communication, not because I imagine God looking down from some "throne").

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You haven't mentioned the part about God creating the bad things in the first place.....I said....

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children?

If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.

And also you said: "I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess"......er don't you read the news! Yes there are some great things in this world and I love my life, but I'm not blinkered by my great life as to think the worlds problems don't exist. I don't think mankind will just sort everything out that easily - yes there is no need for poverty, but can you imagine all the billionaires giving their money to the Third World? Who would orchestrate such a task? Mankind has been created with flaws, mankind didn't start the fire.

In the bible story god did not create any bad things, and in the end of the story humans are restored to a world with NO bad things.

The story says that bad things happened because of choices humans made, using adam and eve as archetypes. It is story like tha t of pandoras box God made all things possible. Humans chose what they desired.

If god could have prevented those choices (and i doubt he could) he could only do so either by eliminating humanity's abilty to formulate destructive thougths, OR by physically preventing our bodies from acting on those thoughts once we had formed them. Neither is a positive outcome and in humanity as we know it impossible We are evolved via learned experiences and as humans we grow from conception via learned knowledge and understandings. If god made us incapable of learning we would be born all knowing and fully developed

I am not blinkered. I am a realist I also am a humanist who believes humans will create a pardise on earth, go on to colonise space and spread itslef among the stars. I act on that belief in everything i do, to help people and to make the world a better place. I will never give up.

But to change the world every one of us has to first change ourselves and recognise our true needs and priorities. We have to accepet accountability for our actions large and small, both in how our lifestyles affect others. and in how we can help other people. To achieve this we need to recognise that we can and tha we can and do make a dfiference, based on how we chose to live our lives.

Mankind has flaws and virtues/abilities But again, we can work towards eliminating the flaws, and developing the virtues. Its up to us. Books like the bible, among many others, tell us how we can achieve this First by recreating ourselves, and second in how to act to others, and more they explain why we should. I am not just my brothers keeper I AM my brother. I know that he feels as i do, suffers as i do, and is made happy as I am. And every human being is my brother or sister. How then, can i watch them/myself starve, go uneducated or die, without doing all i can t prevent those things?

Ps it doesnt require an effort by billionaires. If every "western" person from a developed country gave just a few percent of their current income, all starvation and most poverty, disease and illness caused by poor sanitation etc would be eliminated. Thats a choice we ALL have, and can all easily make.

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You are deciding the nature of God based on the Abramaic teaching presented in the OT alone - what if he is bigger than what could be interpreted of him by those folk? Is this a blast against religion and religious zealots or against the concept of a God? Because those are really two different discussions.

What other Gods are there apart from ones created by a religion or belief of some kind? I don't think the bible and christianity is the only belief system that believes about a god who has created this earth and all that is in it.

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What other Gods are there apart from ones created by a religion or belief of some kind? I don't think the bible and christianity is the only belief system that believes about a god who has created this earth and all that is in it.

No but the reasons for human suffering are presented in a "unique" way in the bible as opposed to say eastern belief systems or Egyptian/Greek/Norse lore on the nature of God.

There is more to the position of there being a God than the personality/s humanity choose to embue him/her with. Or said in another way these are at best "sign posts" of supernatural events that are attributed a personality but do not provide all the information on what God actually is - just that he is there and has this or that attribute according to the observer.

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Obviously you a person who has never met god, and have, quite logically, formed your belief structures around that. It is an error of fact to believe that all gods are constructs of human sapience. God exists as an independent free willed, sapient and powerful, alien entity.

Quite incorrect, it is You that has never met God, simply because there isn't one. The belief structures of people such as yourself have been formed through centuries of confabulation. The "error" is in your Belief, not mine.

There is nothing about the Abrahamic god that is Freedom of Will.

Of course you are free to refuse to accept the label of god for such an entity but its existence is real and it is accesible to, and interactive with, humans.

Indeed the meme/mental construct you refer to as God is as real as any other imagined corporeal entity, and as accessible to any and all who believe or are indoctrinated into belief (a.k.a. fooled).
And ps. While ritual and ceremony may support and comfort some people, it is totally unnecessary. Neither god nor man needs ritual or ceremony to communicate or interact. It is inherent in who and what we are. Ritual and ceremony probably grow from a human desire to impose structure, order, and repetition/predictability, on a naturally chaotic, and thus scary, universe

Human beings cannot escape ritual and ceremony, it is a part of being Human, it is just one aspect that separates Us from the rest of the Animal Kingdom.

There are no Belief Systems that do not incorporate ritual and ceremony into their practice.

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God gave us free will because obedience isn't obedience if you don't have a choice about it. The Bible says if you love God then you will obey Him. It is a choice that was made to sin, otherwise God wouldn't have waited until after Adam and Eve ate from the tree to punish them.

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In the bible story god did not create any bad things, and in the end of the story humans are restored to a world with NO bad things.

The story says that bad things happened because of choices humans made, using adam and eve as archetypes. It is story like tha t of pandoras box God made all things possible. Humans chose what they desired.

If god could have prevented those choices (and i doubt he could) he could only do so either by eliminating humanity's abilty to formulate destructive thougths, OR by physically preventing our bodies from acting on those thoughts once we had formed them. Neither is a positive outcome and in humanity as we know it impossible We are evolved via learned experiences and as humans we grow from conception via learned knowledge and understandings. If god made us incapable of learning we would be born all knowing and fully developed

I am not blinkered. I am a realist I also am a humanist who believes humans will create a pardise on earth, go on to colonise space and spread itslef among the stars. I act on that belief in everything i do, to help people and to make the world a better place. I will never give up.

But to change the world every one of us has to first change ourselves and recognise our true needs and priorities. We have to accepet accountability for our actions large and small, both in how our lifestyles affect others. and in how we can help other people. To achieve this we need to recognise that we can and tha we can and do make a dfiference, based on how we chose to live our lives.

Mankind has flaws and virtues/abilities But again, we can work towards eliminating the flaws, and developing the virtues. Its up to us. Books like the bible, among many others, tell us how we can achieve this First by recreating ourselves, and second in how to act to others, and more they explain why we should. I am not just my brothers keeper I AM my brother. I know that he feels as i do, suffers as i do, and is made happy as I am. And every human being is my brother or sister. How then, can i watch them/myself starve, go uneducated or die, without doing all i can t prevent those things?

Ps it doesnt require an effort by billionaires. If every "western" person from a developed country gave just a few percent of their current income, all starvation and most poverty, disease and illness caused by poor sanitation etc would be eliminated. Thats a choice we ALL have, and can all easily make.

This is almost exactly what I believe except for one thing. I don't believe in God. I believe in choices and contridictions. I think I need to watch the Matrix again. :nw:

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You haven't mentioned the part about God creating the bad things in the first place.....I said....

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children?

If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.

And also you said: "I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess"......er don't you read the news! Yes there are some great things in this world and I love my life, but I'm not blinkered by my great life as to think the worlds problems don't exist. I don't think mankind will just sort everything out that easily - yes there is no need for poverty, but can you imagine all the billionaires giving their money to the Third World? Who would orchestrate such a task? Mankind has been created with flaws, mankind didn't start the fire.

Actually in a real world god couldnt give us only good things. Drink too much water and you drown. Eat too much of good healthy food and you still get fat. In a real world our destinies generally depend on us . We create them from our thoguhts and deeds Secondly if no action of ours had a negative consequence, how could we have, or exercise, free will .

Again, how could we learn if every action had a positive outcome, even if that was theoretically possible. I once saw a child put his hand on a very hot combustion heater. Should god negate the laws of thermo dynamics at that moment in time to ensure the child was not burned?

In the real world a parent might temporarily prevent a child from eating unhealthy food but that is a stop gap and unsatisfactory control method. Unless the child learns self discipline and the desire and will to eat healthily, as soon as it is beyond its parents control, it will eat something unhealthy. You cant keep a 30 year old (Or even a teen ager) from eating or drinking that which is bad for it. They have to chose not to.

I am not responsible for others. I do what i can do, BUT i know from my own life, which is ordinary and human, that everyone can be transformed and everyone is capable of chosing love over hate, charity over greed, sellessness over selfishness, need over greed etc.

Mankind wasnt created. We evolved and we evolved as primates. Our qualities are not inherently flaws or virtues, just natural drivers. BUT, because we are sapient and self aware beings, we can step beyond those evolved characteristics, and choose who and what we wish to be. We can make our world as we desire it to be. First step. We can make ourselves the person we wish to be.

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No wonder I don't believe there's a god....

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Quite incorrect, it is You that has never met God, simply because there isn't one. The belief structures of people such as yourself have been formed through centuries of confabulation. The "error" is in your Belief, not mine.

There is nothing about the Abrahamic god that is Freedom of Will.

Indeed the meme/mental construct you refer to as God is as real as any other imagined corporeal entity, and as accessible to any and all who believe or are indoctrinated into belief (a.k.a. fooled).

Human beings cannot escape ritual and ceremony, it is a part of being Human, it is just one aspect that separates Us from the rest of the Animal Kingdom.

There are no Belief Systems that do not incorporate ritual and ceremony into their practice.

I have indeed met and lived with god in physical form for over 40 years. There is nothing imaginary about this entity, in that it exists independent of my mind, just as all real things do. What you are attempting to do is insist that your disbelief in the existence of god can somehow out weigh my knolwedge of god. The real world works the other way . Knowledge trumps belief every time You cannot logically suggest that somethng you believe can mean that something i know is not possible. It is like saying dogs arent real because you have never encountered one. And because of your disbelief in dogs, any dogs I encounter must be unreal..

The only real dilemma/ difficulty is what happens when a total atheist encounters a real and powerful god. They can maintain their disbelief and become delusional, or accept the reality and the truth and put aside what they believed before they knew better .

i appreciate that some interpretations of the abrahamic god by peole disallow free ill But an unfettered reading of the bible illustrates that like god we have free will. iif we did not we could not chose or act as we do. God would physically constrain us. Indeed god would simply prevent us having destructive desires and thoughts. The god i know and love is as physically real as myself, my wife and my dog. If you cant accept that then you cannot begin to appreciate its role in my life.

Since i was a child i have appreciated the significance of human archtypes ego id etc Having watched the forbidden planet aged about 7nd then recognising that it was loosely based on the tempest, I understood exactly the psychological power of the human mind. But that is not the form of god, or being, i am takling about. It is a being like us in awareness, albeit very differnt in form. It has its own purposes desires and intents as we do. It can give to human beings knowedge etc from outside of us and even from outside of our solar system and galaxy.

I disagree about ritual and ceremony. It is an evolved coping mechanism and modern man can recognise this and dispense with it if he chooses. I have no religious ritual or ceremony in my life and almost no secular ritual behaviour. I simply live a personal relationship with god, as i do with my wife and my dog. There are patterns in all those lives but no ritualised behaviours We do what we need to do, to live happily and successfully. Washday is on monday to have clean clothes for the week, not as part of ritualised behaviour, for example.

I wouldn't know about ritualised belief systems. I do not believe in anything, except those things i deliberately invest belief in, like love.

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I don't think we would have gone down that path. There may have a little glitch in the system whe Creation occurred, and that gave us free will.

Nothing is wrong with free will, but even if we feel oppressed by God, our free will enables us to be easily corrupted by our fellow Humans. We don't really KNOW what is right from wrong, good and evil. Those concepts are preached to us from the media, religion.. etc. Again, they can tell us to do some immoral action and we'll smile and say YES WE SHALL PERFORM YOUR DEED. As demonstrated in the world, we are just that vunerable to ideas. Free will is nice and all, but it can cloud judgement pretty easy.

Let me let out religion for a moment: :gun: (I know, I know. AH MAN, A PREACHER. WATCH OUT GUIZE.)

When Man decided to rebel against God (the Apple incident), God withdrew some of His power from the Earth. This is why the Earth decays, bad things occur, and such. When we were condemned to Hell, God didn't send us to it. We did so ourselves because remember: we have free will nw. We should already know the consequences of our actions.

Alright, back to you guys:

The relationship between God and Man can be seen as a father/mother to their child. They love their child, and then their child stumbles across some notion. An idea. Rebellion, perhaps? Hatred? They're introduced to the "real" world, and the innocence that Bling spoke of is at risk. The child starts to act out of his/gher own will: drinking because "Screw the world!", smoking because "Screw you, Dad!", the whole melodramatic deal. The child has that choice to love or hate their parents, usually hating their parents. Despite what they think, the parents still love them, even if they don't show it well.

My opinion upon the matter is that perhaps God created us, and somehow, He didn't see something coming. Whatever happened that gave us free will, He still has to love us despite what WE feel about him.

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My opinion upon the matter is that perhaps God created us, and somehow, He didn't see something coming.

But isn't God omniscient?

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He is. So are we, to an extent.Weknow what goes on in our lives. We set an unchanging system of order in our lives. Things must be perfect. One little change in that sytem causes our lives to drastically change.

Maybe that's what happened. He is omniscient, but WHAT IF this scenrio occurred? I'm only implying this. Nobody really knows what occurred at Creation. The Bible was written by Man, and I'm sure nobody lived to the first year of the Universe's creation.

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humans mess up, they make mistakes - some of which are really nasty - that is an unfortunate reality that we live with on this planet.

i don't think it has anything to do with god or why we ended up here.

'sin' is a guilt trip.

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idk why have a baby if its going to make mistakes.

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I have indeed met and lived with god in physical form for over 40 years. There is nothing imaginary about this entity, in that it exists independent of my mind, just as all real things do. What you are attempting to do is insist that your disbelief in the existence of god can somehow out weigh my knolwedge of god. The real world works the other way . Knowledge trumps belief every time You cannot logically suggest that somethng you believe can mean that something i know is not possible. It is like saying dogs arent real because you have never encountered one. And because of your disbelief in dogs, any dogs I encounter must be unreal..

The only real dilemma/ difficulty is what happens when a total atheist encounters a real and powerful god. They can maintain their disbelief and become delusional, or accept the reality and the truth and put aside what they believed before they knew better .

i appreciate that some interpretations of the abrahamic god by peole disallow free ill But an unfettered reading of the bible illustrates that like god we have free will. iif we did not we could not chose or act as we do. God would physically constrain us. Indeed god would simply prevent us having destructive desires and thoughts. The god i know and love is as physically real as myself, my wife and my dog. If you cant accept that then you cannot begin to appreciate its role in my life.

Since i was a child i have appreciated the significance of human archtypes ego id etc Having watched the forbidden planet aged about 7nd then recognising that it was loosely based on the tempest, I understood exactly the psychological power of the human mind. But that is not the form of god, or being, i am takling about. It is a being like us in awareness, albeit very differnt in form. It has its own purposes desires and intents as we do. It can give to human beings knowedge etc from outside of us and even from outside of our solar system and galaxy.

I disagree about ritual and ceremony. It is an evolved coping mechanism and modern man can recognise this and dispense with it if he chooses. I have no religious ritual or ceremony in my life and almost no secular ritual behaviour. I simply live a personal relationship with god, as i do with my wife and my dog. There are patterns in all those lives but no ritualised behaviours We do what we need to do, to live happily and successfully. Washday is on monday to have clean clothes for the week, not as part of ritualised behaviour, for example.

I wouldn't know about ritualised belief systems. I do not believe in anything, except those things i deliberately invest belief in, like love.

All Belief systems are ritualized, some just mask the word to separate it from those "other" heathen systems . . . LOL!

See, I never said I don't believe in this god, matter of fact I explained exactly what this god is . . . and that is all this god is, a meme/thoughtform Gone Wild!

idk why have a baby if its going to make mistakes.

Because we can? :innocent:

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All Belief systems are ritualized, some just mask the word to separate it from those "other" heathen systems . . . LOL!

See, I never said I don't believe in this god, matter of fact I explained exactly what this god is . . . and that is all this god is, a meme/thoughtform Gone Wild!

Because we can? :innocent:

probably the best answer we will ever get.

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All Belief systems are ritualized....

Leave out the word "system" and you are completely wrong. Not all spiritual people follow systems.

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To sin is a part of creating a perfect world. Thus he also created regret and forgiveness. People learn from mistakes, some didn't or can't. When you try to prevent a child to do something stupid, you stop him but you don't explain why, the child will live his life as you dictated but he won't really understand why he should live that way.

For example, when a person saves another person from an accident, you'd rather hear him says "because saving people is a good thing to do" instead of "because saving people are in our nature", that's meaningless. When you do something great, you put your compassion, your soul, your reason to do the task; you are not a robot that executed a bunch of codes just to accomplish the task and to not violate any rule.

Though, some of the rules of the nature have to be considered:

- food, water don't fall from the sky

- if people are lazy, don't work => no food

- food comes from trees, so if people destroy trees for wood, forest for space, where would the food come from?

- if food is given by killing animals, why should animals has to suffer but not humans?

- if the number of trees (thus fruits) is a constant or decreasing, why should the number of humans increasing?

The primitive world is aimed to be perfect. But I think it's us that generated the problems and it's selfish to ask God to magically fix it when we have enough knowledge to resolve the problem.

Edited by FlyingAngel
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Leave out the word "system" and you are completely wrong. Not all spiritual people follow systems.

Right, and you are left with just "Belief" which is purely subjective and without any physical evidence.

The Father of Belief is Faith . . . both are delusions.

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To sin is a part of creating a perfect world. Thus he also created regret and forgiveness. People learn from mistakes, some didn't or can't. When you try to prevent a child to do something stupid, you stop him but you don't explain why, the child will live his life as you dictated but he won't really understand why he should live that way.

For example, when a person saves another person from an accident, you'd rather hear him says "because saving people is a good thing to do" instead of "because saving people are in our nature", that's meaningless. When you do something great, you put your compassion, your soul, your reason to do the task; you are not a robot that executed a bunch of codes just to accomplish the task and to not violate any rule.

Though, some of the rules of the nature have to be considered:

- food, water don't fall from the sky

- if people are lazy, don't work => no food

- food comes from trees, so if people destroy trees for wood, forest for space, where would the food come from?

- if food is given by killing animals, why should animals has to suffer but not humans?

- if the number of trees (thus fruits) is a constant or decreasing, why should the number of humans increasing?

The primitive world is aimed to be perfect. But I think it's us that generated the problems and it's selfish to ask God to magically fix it when we have enough knowledge to resolve the problem.

Sin is a product of the Abrahamic mind, it is a fabrication of guilt intended to enslave its sheeple . . . in essence there is no such thing as Sin, it is a lie.

- food, water don't fall from the sky - I've seen water fall from the sky, it's called rain. The Sun is a source of life and energy to most creatures, it's in the sky as well.

- if people are lazy, don't work => no food - LOL, have you seen the welfare lines? The middle class feeds the rest of the world.

- food comes from trees, so if people destroy trees for wood, forest for space, where would the food come from? - Fish? Vegetables? Animals?

- if food is given by killing animals, why should animals has to suffer but not humans? - Because we are at the top of the food chain, and that is the pecking order, that's just too bad.

- if the number of trees (thus fruits) is a constant or decreasing, why should the number of humans increasing? Because mankind's first instinct is to survive, and we do it better than anything else on this planet. A better answer would be that mankind thinks with its little head instead of its big head . . . :whistle:

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Leave out the word "system" and you are completely wrong. Not all spiritual people follow systems.

That's why he didn't leave out the word "system."

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idk why have a baby if its going to make mistakes.

Are you really serious?

You have a baby (philosophically speaking) because of its potential. That includes to make mistakes but also to chose for good, to be creative and constructive, to make the world a better place.. Every individual human adds to humanity. Making mistakes is inevitable. Iti s what we learn from those mistakes, and how we act the next time we are faced with the same choice, which defines us as individuals.

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