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Ligia Cabus

Quantum Physics and The Existence of the Soul

27 posts in this topic

It's already hour of Humanity grow and begin to understand religion as a natural phenomenon between the one with the Whole and abandon completly the ideia of a God anthropomorphic, personal, physical (corporal) that is in somewhere busy in watching people's behavior.

Even the conservative Catholic church accepts the hypothesis of the Big Bang as origin of all things. Accept this hiphothesis means accept a God manifested in creatures, from dust even the stars; a God manifested in laws that govern relations between these creatures.

(Like we refuse to accept a soul like pure energy, without human form. Many of us prefer to think in the Self, in the post mortem, as a classical ghost that conserves a physical shape with a diaphanous consistence. But, possibly, the reality must to be much different.)

What we call Physics Laws are the Laws of this God, who has a metaphysical nature, that We refuse to understand because, like weak children (because there are strong children), we seek as a protective father or someone or something to blame by our errors and ills.

***************************************************************************************

IN DAILY MAIL, 30/10/2012

A near-death experience happens when quantum substances which form the soul leave the nervous system and enter the universe at large, according to a remarkable theory proposed by two eminent scientists.

According to this idea, consciousness is a program for a quantum computer in the brain which can persist in the universe even after death, explaining the perceptions of those who have near-death experiences.

Dr Stuart Hameroff, Professor Emeritus at the Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology and the Director of the Centre of Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona, has advanced the quasi-religious theory. ...

The concept is similar to the Buddhist and Hindu belief that consciousness is an integral part of the universe - and indeed that it is really all there may be, a position similar to Western philosophical idealism.

Edited by Ligia Cabus

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I'm quite clueless about quantum mechanics other than a popular science education and I assume most people are the same. But one thing I do know is to be wary of any layman who uses the term quantum. It's an old favourite of new agers to give some credibility to their theories. See Deepak Chopra, What the Bleep do we Know? etc.

As for our consciousness returning to the universe upon our death, I'd argue that it never is apart from it in the first place. The energy and matter in our bodies is never separate or distinct from the universe except in the way it is arranged.

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I'm quite clueless about quantum mechanics other than a popular science education and I assume most people are the same. But one thing I do know is to be wary of any layman who uses the term quantum. It's an old favourite of new agers to give some credibility to their theories. See Deepak Chopra, What the Bleep do we Know? etc.

As for our consciousness returning to the universe upon our death, I'd argue that it never is apart from it in the first place. The energy and matter in our bodies is never separate or distinct from the universe except in the way it is arranged.

This is true. I am leery of people claiming these things. That dosnt mean that I do not believe in spirit because I do, but I know enough about QM to spot erroneous ideas parading within QM. That didn't mean QM dosnt have anything to say. It has shown us that the syntax for this universe exists outside of it as we know it, but I would cringe at using materialistic analytical for something that is so obviously not material as we know it to be.

The big bang did NOT create everything. It's just that everything we know of seems to have passed through this point. That's all we know. We can only say that matter/energy as we know it passed through a horizon that at which it was in some other form. That is unless we throw out the laws of thermo dynamics entirely.

Edited by Seeker79

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So they haven't actually discovered *anything*, no particle, no soul, etc, they're just proposing a "theory".

In that case there is also a "theory" the earth is 6000 years old.

Edited by Rlyeh

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Well, I propose (baseless) theories all the time. Can I get in newspaper too? :whistle:

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The truth is that we humans don't know anything about life after death. No scientist has produced evidence of existence of a thing called "soul".

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The truth is that we humans don't know anything about life after death. No scientist has produced evidence of existence of a thing called "soul".

ah... falling back to an argument that depends on the available technology......

granted there is some pretty amazing technology out there....

but an argument based on technology always is subject to change in the next year/s as technology advances...

right now the existence of dark matter is just theory based on observable evidence....

we don’t have a technology that can prove it one way or the other...

we just have an observation of the effects we cant detect.....

the concept of dark matter is a means to explain what we don’t have the technology to "see" and prove with empirical evidence....

and people take this as fact with no ability to define or prove its existence....

same type of argument is present with the defining of a soul.....

both are just energies we don’t have the means to to show another person and say....

this device detects what i am talking about.... and thereby proves its existence......

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we just have an observation of the effects we cant detect.....

This is contradictory. Observing the effects is the same as detecting.
same type of argument is present with the defining of a soul.....
So you can observe the evidence of a soul?
both are just energies we don’t have the means to to show another person and say....

this device detects what i am talking about.... and thereby proves its existence......

Dark matter is verifiable, a soul so far isn't. Edited by Rlyeh

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It's already hour of Humanity grow and begin to understand religion as a natural phenomenon between the one with the Whole and abandon completly the ideia of a God anthropomorphic, personal, physical (corporal) that is in somewhere busy in watching people's behavior.

Even the conservative Catholic church accepts the hypothesis of the Big Bang as origin of all things. Accept this hiphothesis means accept a God manifested in creatures, from dust even the stars; a God manifested in laws that govern relations between these creatures.

(Like we refuse to accept a soul like pure energy, without human form. Many of us prefer to think in the Self, in the post mortem, as a classical ghost that conserves a physical shape with a diaphanous consistence. But, possibly, the reality must to be much different.)

What we call Physics Laws are the Laws of this God, who has a metaphysical nature, that We refuse to understand because, like weak children (because there are strong children), we seek as a protective father or someone or something to blame by our errors and ills.

***************************************************************************************

IN DAILY MAIL, 30/10/2012

A near-death experience happens when quantum substances which form the soul leave the nervous system and enter the universe at large, according to a remarkable theory proposed by two eminent scientists.

According to this idea, consciousness is a program for a quantum computer in the brain which can persist in the universe even after death, explaining the perceptions of those who have near-death experiences.

Dr Stuart Hameroff, Professor Emeritus at the Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology and the Director of the Centre of Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona, has advanced the quasi-religious theory. ...

The concept is similar to the Buddhist and Hindu belief that consciousness is an integral part of the universe - and indeed that it is really all there may be, a position similar to Western philosophical idealism.

Quantum physics continuously helps prove there is something more than the physical/material/objective universe that everyone has decided is God.

Victor J. Stenger ( American particle physicist ) - Energy exists in discrete packets called quanta. Energy fields are composed of their component parts and so only exist when quanta are present. Therefore energy fields are not holistic, but are rather a system of discrete parts that must obey the laws of physics. This also means that energy fields are not instantaneous. These facts of quantum physics place limitations on the infinite, continuous field that is used by some theorists to describe so-called "human energy fields". Stenger continues, explaining that the effects of EM forces have been measured by physicists as accurately as one part in a billion and there is yet to be any evidence that living organisms emit a unique field.

Luigi Galvani: Neurological investigations led to the development of the Voltaic cell. Many scientists continued to think that living organisms must be constituted of special materials subject to special forces - a view which became known as vitalism. However, the importance of "energy-fields" began to wane and the proposed forces became more mind-like.

Harold Saxton Burr: The electromagnetic fields of organisms have been studied precisely as the hypothetical medium of such organizational "forces"

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We should not dismiss this theory to quickly, one of the scientists that he has worked with on this is Sir Roger Penrose. He is a scientist of the highest order. He has worked on many different scientific theories and problems. He worked with Prof. S.Hawkings on the Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems. He invented the Twistor Theory and Penrose diagrams. He was elected fellow of the royal society. His awards are-

Eddington medal - Royal society Royal medal - Wolf Foundation prize for Physics

The Dirac medal and prize - Albert Einstein medal - The Naylor prize

President of International Society on General Relativity and Gravitation

He was Knighted for services to science.

Elected foreign Associate of the U.S. National Academy of Science.

Appointed to the Order of Merit - The De Morgan Medal - The Copley Medal.

The Fonseca Prize. Etc.

Remember it has taken over 40yrs and £6 billion+ for the LHC to find a ‘possible’ proof of the Higgs Boson, and prof Peter Higgs proposed it way back in 1964! So don’t jump the gun. Funny thing though if they just learned to meditate and got themselves a good teacher they would know for themselves what they really are. Consciousness plain and simple, beyond the illusion of separateness is the wonder of unity and Oneness.

“Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. He who looks outside dreams; He who looks inside awakens”. Carl Jung

Edited by sutemi

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There is a connection between NDE's and quantum physics and the holographic universe that has never been adequately explained away to me. Near death experiencers routinely describe their experiences in terms that can only be called "holographic" and they also say things that seem to parallel things I've read about quantum physics. I find that very evidential. There is no way that a housewife from Kansas or an uneducated truck driver from South Georgia would know or understand anything about quantum physics or the holographic nature of the universe yet they routinely come back after their experiences and describe them in terms that can only be called "holographic."

People who have NDE's routinely talk about overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness, feeling like they are everywhere in the universe at once, time and space not existing, buildings that are "made out of knowledge", 360 degree vision, seeing colors they've never seen before, hearing sounds that they haven't heard in this physical universe, and during the life review seeing their whole lives flash by in an instant (bolus of information)and feeling the emotions and feelings of the people they interacted with (the life review is a holographic experience par excellence), and how the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and feeling the feelings and hearing the thoughts of the people they interacted with. I find these things to be very evidential because it parallels things I've read about in popular physics books.

This explains why it is that so many near death experiencers say that the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and how it could be "realer than real" or "more consciousness than normal." Near death experiencers also say that it will feel even more real to us than this side does. The quote below explains why or how this is possible.

"Or, to put it another way, a holographic universe is blurry," says Hogan. This is good news for anyone trying to probe the smallest unit of space-time. ...

http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2010/02/19/the-holographic-universe-when-it-pays-to-be-first/

There is quite a bit of evidence from physics and near death experiences that our so called physical universe is some kind of strange holographic projection. The implications of this are enormous.

Our Universe may be a giant hologram (1 page)

http://www.inquisitr.com/15460/scientists-claim-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram/

The Universe as a hologram (about 5 or 6 pages):

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

Testing the holographic universe

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2010/10/20/fermilab-scientists-to-test-hypothesis-of-holographic-universe/

If you read Mark Horton's NDE and the parallels with the holographic universe theory become obvious:

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation, Dr. Oswald Harding.

http://www.amazon.com/Near-Death-Experience-Holographic-Explanation/dp/9768202092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255530488&sr=1-1

Edited by Artaxerxes
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The Holodeck Metaphor

I just had an idea pop into my head this morning. You know on the TV Show Star Trek: The Next Generation how they had what they call a Holodeck? Did you ever notice that none of the starship's regular characters ever got upset when one of their holodeck characters died when they were running a holodeck simulation? That's because they knew that they were just a computer generated character, not "really real". They weren't really "dead" because they weren't really "real."

If you read enough near death experience descriptions that is sort of how they describe this reality; and if it is just a holographic projection from someplace else, something created to teach the soul about the physical universe, time and space, what it means and how it feels to be separate, then perhaps the Star Trek: TNG holodeck is a good metaphor for what this life really is.

But if emotion helps us remember, and the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates, perhaps that is why we aren't allowed to know absolutely for sure that there is life after death because it is in the not know that we mourn the most. If we knew all this stuff absolutely for sure when someone we love dies we'd realize that our separation was only temporary and after the character we are playing dies that we would be reunited in Heaven or the spiritual dimension or universe or whatever you want to call it?

excerpt from Michelle M's NDE:

I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here.

http://www.nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

excerpt from Jame's E's NDE:

I was not "told" anything in the light, as much as, I just knew everything there was to know. I knew why there was bad in the world, I knew why there was good, I knew that every little thing that will ever occur here, is exactly planned out, in order to bring about something else. Everything we have ever done or known or will know, is perfectly planned out and perfectly in tune. ... {snip}... It taught me that everyone, everything, is in its right place. Always will be, no matter how much we try to change, or try to destroy, or try to create, were simply doing exactly what was planned. The meaning of life, as I felt it to be, is simply to live.

http://www.nderf.org/james_e_nde.htm

excerpt from Arthur's NDE:

My wife was standing in the street turned facing the other direction and I realized she was watching the vehicle that had hit me turned around and heading back towards us for a second time. Three things came to my thoughts. 1) That if the vehicle was to hit me again that would be it! 2) That my wife was in danger again. As she was standing in front of my body with her hands waving to the automobile in a fashion as to flag them down. Only they were going way to fast to stop and way to close to miss. 3) My 6 month old son was foremost in my mind. I remember sensing a presence, nothing visual but I knew I was Not alone! I said, "Please Dear God, No! Not Now!" I saw the car pass through the scene, it did not swerve, it did not turn. It passed directly through, leaving my wife and my body untouched. Instantly after that I found myself laying on the ground, back inside my body writhing in pain. This story can be confirmed! Teresa, who was my wife at the time can confirm it.

http://www.nderf.org/arthur_w's_nde.htm

excerpt from Kelly K's NDE:

The next thing I recall was being shown the universe. I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected.

http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

excerpt from online essay about the The Holographic Universe:

For if the concreteness of the world is but a secondary reality and what is "there" is actually a holographic blur of frequencies, and if the brain is also a hologram and only selects some of the frequencies out of this blur and mathematically transforms them into sensory perceptions, what becomes of objective reality? Put quite simply, it ceases to exist. As the religions of the East have long upheld, the material world is Maya, an illusion, and although we may think we are physical beings moving through a physical world, this too is an illusion.

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

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“Holographic parallels in NDEs”

Excerpt from Michelle M’s NDE:

“I remember understanding the others here as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were allthe same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body.

http://www.nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

Excerpt from Kelly K’s NDE:

“I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected.”

http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

Excerpt from Mark Horton’s near death experience:

“I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously. ..<snip>… I suddenly just relaxed completely and allowed "myself" to dissolve (?) open up (?) merge (?) into the "oneness" that surrounded me. The explosion of emotion and (again words are almost useless) over- whelming "love" that I now felt made any previous feelings I had experienced even during this episode, however "long" it had/was/is going on, seem like nothing! I cannot possibly put into words that any human language has that feeling. I was everything, I was nothing. I was everywhere, I was nowhere. I was every when, I wasn't. My intellect had expanded to contain every thing, time, place, and even being that was, is, or ever would be! I was unique yet I was the tiniest part of the whole. I know this is sounding like gibberish... it even does to me a times when I read it on paper; but to have been it! Words don't exist to describe the joy and love and warmth. It truly is indescribable!”

http://www.mindsprin.../nde/markh.html

Excerpt from Barbara Harris’s NDE:

And as I experienced that release, there was a sudden replay of every scene my grandmother and I had shared during our nineteen years together in this life. It wasn't just my memories of her -- it was also her memories of me. And our memories became one. I could feel and see and sense exactly what she was feeling, seeing and sensing. And I knew she was getting the same thing from my memories. It was both of us together, replaying everything that we meant to each other.

http://near-death.co.../experts14.html

Excerpt from Randy Gehling’s NDE:

"That was really cool! I kind of felt as though my body exploded - in a nice way - and became a million different atoms - and each single atom could think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. All at once I seemed to feel like I was a boy, a girl, a dog, a cat, a fish. Then I felt like I was an old man, an old woman - and then a little tiny baby."

http://near-death.co.../animals04.html

Excerpt from Karl Turner’s mystical experience:

“My awareness was somehow intensified to a level that is not humanly possible. "I" was the awareness I was experiencing and that is the part that I find frustrating to communicate. I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere. I knew that everything is perfect and happening according to some divine plan, regardless of all the things we see as wrong with the world.”

http://www.beyondrel...s-kundalini.htm

excerpt from Riding the Dragon, mystical experience of a Medical Doctor during a medical conference:

Although no words were exchanged in that brief eye-to-eye encounter, it seemed to me the message was clear: "So, for a moment, you see. Relax. Don't take yourself so seriously! All is well. We are forever one."

http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00070&ss=1

Excerpt from Chamisa’s NDE:

“I was in the middle of some kind of hologram. I noticed all my feelings, emotions, personality and knowledge were still with me and that I carried a large amount of anger toward certain people, especially my parents and the religion they used against me. I'd been an agnostic for years. Then once having this experience during surgery in an out of my body state, I suddenly observed a Being of Light instantly entering this holographic space and when he came, I was washed with a flood of love and forgiveness for everyone and everything.” http://www.nderf.org/chamisa_h_nde.htm

Excerpt from Arthur’s NDE:

“Three things came to my thoughts. 1) That if the vehicle was to hit me again that would be it! 2) That my wife was in danger again. As she was standing in front of my body with her hands waving to the automobile in a fashion as to flag them down. Only they were going way to fast to stop and way to close to miss. 3) My 6 month old son was foremost in my mind. I remember sensing a presence, nothing visual but I knew I was Not alone! I said, "Please Dear God, No! Not Now!" I saw the car pass through the scene, it did not swerve, it did not turn. It passed directly through, leaving my wife and my body untouched. Instantly after that I found myself laying on the ground, back inside my body writhing in pain. This story can be confirmed! Teresa, who was my wife at the time can confirm it.”

http://www.nderf.org...hur_w's_nde.htm

Robert Blair Kaiser is an author and a former correspondent for Time magazine. Reviewing a book about miracles he wrote: "In 1994, behind the wheel of my Mercedes, I lurched out of my driveway and was awakened from my dreamy preoccupation by the sight of a speeding car bearing down on me, not five feet away on my left. I knew I was a dead man.

"All of a sudden, that car was on my right. The driver weaved a bit, braked for a moment and then drove off, shaking his head in disbelief, as I was. For it was clear to me, there was no way he could have missed crashing into me, no way he could have steered aside. His car had flashed through my car, his steel and glass and rubber passing through my steel and glass and rubber like a ray of light through a pane of alabaster."

Kaiser ends his anecdote with a reflection: "This miracle moment was a turning point in my life, for I took it as a sign that God wasn't finished with me yet and that I had some new business to attend to."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

Edited by Artaxerxes

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Dark matter is verifiable, a soul so far isn't.

on that matter... when a person passes away... (something i have observed more then once)

there is something that leaves.....

the body changes subtly.....

but there is a change.....

as well.... there is a measurable difference in weight......

these are observable effects.....

quantifiable if you will.....

in the same manner that dark energy has effects on its surroundings...

you could say the "soul" (spirit.... whatever you want to call it) has an observable effect on its surroundings (the body)...

and the departure of said consciousness makes a difference to the outward appearance of the body....

the effects of how the body looks ....

well you can start talking about the body working off of bioelectric energy...

and the muscles are in constant flux in that state and always moving ... (even if its imperceptible to the naked eye)

and that in a state of death (cessation of the bioelectric activity) it comes to a rest....

sure that can be explained.....

but the weight difference has defied explanation for the most part....

i guess you could say that the bioelectric energy itself has weight....

or some other means of explanation....

but i am open to ideas and concepts....

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but either way......

it brings up a larger question.....

what makes you ....... "you" .......

as well as things like......

where does inspiration come from?

when you talk to yourself and get answers.....

where do those answers come from?....

i see in the aspect of science and the teaching of science a fascinating little conundrum.....

like for example the matter of dark energy.....

it has not been proven one way or another....

you have taken a leap of faith....

and will justify it as not being as such....

because you don’t have "faith" in there being anything like a concept of a higher being, or god....

but you have faith in science......

and you defend your faith in your science as vehemently as those who study whatever book they choose to....

the studying of books....... in a nutshell.....

same arguments.....

same defences......

different sides of the same coin.....

how can anyone look at anything with an open mind if they are already predisposed to argue it away based on their own faith?

then it gets into philosophy......

i think, therefore i am.....

and in all reality ......

that’s all it is from any perspective....

the difference with me i think (according to my own opinion).....

i can look at what you say with an open mind....

i am very fascinated by the scientific advancements of modern technology.....

i have seen and experienced things in my own life that have led me to what i believe...

the difference is....

are you willing to look at the evidence i may present for my case?

and if you are.....

are you willing to let go of your boundaries and open yourself to a new experience?

few with a faith in science are willing to make that leap....

and again....

that is my experience....

its not an argument....

just an observation....

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Quantum theory, though have existed way back, still for me is quite a new science. There are tons of unexplored and unexplained things relating to quantum science, yet we have these events and circumstances that prove that this theory exists. The near death experience also has its own truths. I am very interested to know about quantum theory and this thread somehow enlightened me of the things that is so unknown.

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So they haven't actually discovered *anything*, no particle, no soul, etc, they're just proposing a "theory".

Yes a theory based on scientific mathematical axioms and conventions, along with experiential evidence, and other scientific fields, studying energy, electromagnetic forces, fields etc. So they put it together to form a scientific theory.

In that case there is also a "theory" the earth is 6000 years old.

There is also the spaghetti monster theory, evolution theory, panspermia theory I suppose you can lump them altogether ;)

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This is contradictory. Observing the effects is the same as detecting.

So you can observe the evidence of a soul?

Dark matter is verifiable, a soul so far isn't.

Lol....I love blind atheism, see how the above has claimed that his religion of science and it's clergy can verify dark matter.........I think statements like that just sum up the average atheist trolling on anything remotely theistic!

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Yes a theory based on scientific mathematical axioms and conventions, along with experiential evidence, and other scientific fields, studying energy, electromagnetic forces, fields etc. So they put it together to form a scientific theory.

Where is the experiential evidence?

What a surprise, looks like someone didn't bother to read the article.

Lol....I love blind atheism
It is the blindness you love, that way no matter how many times you've been corrected you can always make another ignorant statement.

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Where is the experiential evidence?

What a surprise, looks like someone didn't bother to read the article.

Experiential evidence equates the 1000s of reports of NDE's OBE's etc this counts as experiential evidence, all be it subjective to the individuals reporting it, but it's still evidence put together.

It is the blindness you love, that way no matter how many times you've been corrected you can always make another ignorant statement.

I love your blindness, see when I point out something ignorant in your posts, like dark matter is verifiable (hahahahaha), I make sure the reader understand where your blind. What have corrected? In fact I'm always correcting you! So oh mighty clergy of science, verify frigging dark matter and get a Nobel prize why don't u!!!!

:D

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Experiential evidence equates the 1000s of reports of NDE's OBE's etc this counts as experiential evidence, all be it subjective to the individuals reporting it, but it's still evidence put together.

What part of scientific don't you understand?

NDEs have not once been verified to have any link with QM. In fact there is no experiment to test such.

So I'll ask again "Where is the experiential evidence?"

I love your blindness, see when I point out something ignorant in your posts, like dark matter is verifiable (hahahahaha)
You also must enjoy feeling like a fool.

http://www.space.com...y-clusters.html

I make sure the reader understand where your blind. What have corrected? In fact I'm always correcting you! So oh mighty clergy of science, verify frigging dark matter and get a Nobel prize why don't u!!!!
Actually you've made yourself look rather ignorant. First you demonstrate your poor reading comprehension, did you even bother to read the article? They've given no scientific evidence to support their theory, you then claim bogus scientific evidence. Then you make the final mistake of asserting dark matter hasn't been observed.

You real clever. lmao.

Edited by Rlyeh

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no need to fight.....

anything spiritual is a personal thing....

for any evidence of anything to do with it... you have to be open to it... and seek it out...

then and only then can you come to your own conclusions....

if it is dismissed as hokum right off the bat...

then the door is closed .....

no point in arguing to another person that there is something right behind them if they refuse to turn around....

no matter which side of the fence your on....

i am amazed by science.... i read stuff all the time....

i have my own personal beliefs backed up by my own experiences...

i chose to not close the doors on either side of the argument....

i am just saying to some degree or another....

the concept of dark energy, may be tied into other things we never would have thought of...

it seems to be vast and mysterious.... just as the concept of chi...

there may be a way the we sense the dark energy and not realise it...

and that gets into the same whole reasoning for the argument of vinyl and cd's....

on the cd's there is a whole realm of frequencies that are missing.... things you cant "hear" ... but you sense....

they just don’t exist on cd's.....

but we "know" something is different.....

then it gets into a matter of preference.....

do you "want to have that sensing" of those frequencies?

or does it even matter?

but that question is the same as the matter of NDE and the scientific argument....

what does it matter to "you" ? .....

what is the question that you really have underneath it all? .....

everybody thinks about life and death.... life after death.....

is there more to it all?.....

at some point or another....

everybody thinks of this kind of stuff.....

to see a life long atheist lying on their death bed filled with fear....

and questions about life after death....

what would you say to them? .....

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First of all I never claimed the theory to be fact I said its a scientific theory made up physics cosmology, astronomy, maths, etc and add to that experiential evidence of individuals, whether its objective or subjective is irrelevant, it's experiences of 1000s of people being taken in to consideration, whether they can prove their experience empirically is a different matter! You clearly cannot comprehend this!

The astronomers used observations from the public archive of data collected by the Japanese Subaru telescope on Mauna Kea in Hawaii.

"The data was observed in 2001 and just had been sitting in the archive and no one ever used it," Dietrich said. "It took a while for us to realize that this data is around."

Though the gravitational lensing was too weak to notice by eye, the team used a statistical analysis of light from more than 40,000 background galaxies to determine that unseen mass in between the two galaxy clusters was warping space-time.

The work follows up on a 2008 study Dietrich worked on, which found hot gas in the area of the filament, suggesting its existence. However, that study did not detect a signal from the dark matter directly.

The researchers would love to search for dark matter filaments around other galaxy clusters, but say they haven't yet found any good candidates that might cause lensing strong enough to be seen from Earth.

You see you still don't get it, how do empirically prove dark matter, it's invisible matter? So how did they view invisible matter? They did not, they interpreted data mathematically etc and the effects of that region of space have been deemed invisible matter, matter that we can't see, yet somehow they found it visible, no it's mathematical interpretation mate. There is no empirical proof of dark matter yet, It's interpretation of data that's all, plasma physicist can interpret that data in a different way etc, depends what theory you jump on, and dark matter is a theory too

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First of all I never claimed the theory to be fact I said its a scientific theory made up physics cosmology, astronomy, maths, etc and add to that experiential evidence of individuals, whether its objective or subjective is irrelevant, it's experiences of 1000s of people being taken in to consideration, whether they can prove their experience empirically is a different matter! You clearly cannot comprehend this!

A scientific theory must be verifiable. The theory presented in the article falls short, no hypothesis has been tested that shows a link with QM or of any quantum substance which form the soul.
You see you still don't get it, how do empirically prove dark matter, it's invisible matter? So how did they view invisible matter? They did not, they interpreted data mathematically etc and the effects of that region of space have been deemed invisible matter, matter that we can't see, yet somehow they found it visible, no it's mathematical interpretation mate. There is no empirical proof of dark matter yet, It's interpretation of data that's all, plasma physicist can interpret that data in a different way etc, depends what theory you jump on, and dark matter is a theory too

You realise we can't see atoms either? We can observe their behavior and effects with the proper tools.

You misunderstand what observation means.

Edited by Rlyeh

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Theories have verifiable aspects and theoretical aspects yet to be empirically proven! Ie dark matter!

Observations whereby we see the effect of something ie gravity, dark matter acting on Baryonic matter, is a matter of interpretation of the data. Those proposing dark energy theory interpret the data to fit their theory a plasma theorist will do the same, one gets more attention simply on the philosophical criteria and implication if the theory in reality. Does that make sense, if dark matter was verifiable like you claim then it would not be the great mystery phycists are claiming it is! There is a reliance on indirect evidence, which fuels dark matter doubts.

Read this :

the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, has in the decade since its launch delivered a robust indirect detection of dark matter's footprint on the ancient echo of light known as the cosmic microwave background. And dark matter's effects are also inferred in gravitational interactions around clusters of galaxies as well as around individual galaxies themselves.

But the dark stuff itself has yet to be detected, either directly, in particle physics laboratories as a new subatomic particle, via neutrino telescopes also operating in the subatomic realm, or with concrete evidence of such hidden matter using telescopes operating in the electromagnetic spectrum.

If it's matter whether visible or not is detectable and observable via neutrino telescopes, LHC and other technology!!!

Stars at the very edges of spiral galaxies, for instance, rotate much faster than can be explained by Newtonian gravity alone; the picture makes sense only if astrophysicists either modify gravity itself or invoke additional gravitational acceleration due to an unknown source of mass such as dark matter.

See dark matter is an extension theory to model to account for affects that Newtonian physics don't, either gravity needs modification or we add a theoretical accelerator!

Theory predicts that spiral galaxies, including our own Milky Way, are enveloped by massive dark matter halos that provide the galaxy's missing mass. But the Milky Way's own dark matter halo has also yet to be detected, even indirectly. Its putative existence is primarily inferred from the anomalous rotations of satellite galaxies such as the Magellanic Clouds, which orbit the Milky Way too quickly to be explained by ordinary gravity alone.

Finally I think this point sums up my point.

"There is a lot of misplaced certainty in the dark matter model—a feeling that it's not 'if' we directly detect dark matter, but 'when,'" Mihos says.

Or, as McGaugh puts it, "Once you convince yourself that the universe is full of an invisible substance that only interacts with ordinary matter through gravity, then it is virtually impossible to disabuse yourself of that notion. There is always a way to wiggle out of any observation."

:)

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