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docyabut2

Osarseph and Exodus

55 posts in this topic

What was Moses if not priest? Mage? Wizard?

We have evidence ot 10 plagues of Egypt. Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut's Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

From wiki:

book The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History, and Science Look at the Bible, Siro Igino Trevisanato explores the theory that the plagues were initially caused by the Santorini eruption in Greece. His hypothesis considers a two-stage eruption over a time of a bit less than two years. His studies place the first eruption in 1602 BC, when volcanic ash taints the Nile, causing the first plague and forming a catalyst for many of the subsequent plagues. In 1600 BC, the plume of a Santorini eruption caused the ninth plague, the days of darkness. Trevisanato hypothesizes that the Egyptians (at that time under the occupation of Hyksos), resorted to human sacrifice in an attempt to appease the gods, for they had viewed the ninth plague as a precursor to more. This human sacrifice became known as the tenth plague.

People really need to quit using Wikipedia as a primary source. As in this case, like so many others, it's wrong. We know the primary direction of the volcanic plume of Santorini and there was insufficient ashfall carried to Egypt to have caused any plagues. The ash plume travelled northeast of Santorini.

cormac

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People really need to quit using Wikipedia as a primary source. As in this case, like so many others, it's wrong. We know the primary direction of the volcanic plume of Santorini and there was insufficient ashfall carried to Egypt to have caused any plagues. The ash plume travelled northeast of Santorini.

cormac

And no matter how many times that little fact is pointed out some keep insisting on it and the Manzala parting of the muck.

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People really need to quit using Wikipedia as a primary source. As in this case, like so many others, it's wrong. We know the primary direction of the volcanic plume of Santorini and there was insufficient ashfall carried to Egypt to have caused any plagues. The ash plume travelled northeast of Santorini.

cormac

Then from what volcano we found evidence in egypt about same time?

Also do you think that China records are connected with Santorini explosion?

Edit: we have records of some plagues in Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

Edited by the L

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Then from what volcano we found evidence in egypt about same time?

Also do you think that China records are connected with Santorini explosion?

Edit: we have records of some plagues in Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

There is evidence for a small deposit of ash from Santorini reaching the Northern Delta of Egypt, but we're talking millimeters at most which is an insignificant amount and nowhere near enough to be responsible for the plagues.

No, I don't think China's records are connected to Santorini. As well as the majority of the volcanic plume travelling northeast, most of it would have dissipated by the time it reached the eastern Black Sea. China wouldn't have even seen its effects.

cormac

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...

We have evidence ot 10 plagues of Egypt. Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut's Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

...

I have to echo cormac's cautionary note about Wiki. As convenient and tempting as it may be, it cannot be regarded as a primary research source. Very little on the internet can be. Of value are translations, for example, of the sorts of inscriptions and monuments you listed—in so far as the translations were performed by legitimate Egyptologists or other historians with the requisite linguistic training. Let's take a closer look, then:

Tempest Stela: Click here for a good translation of this monument. It was conducted by Robert Ritner, a prominent Egyptologist at the Oriental Institute. The stela dates to the dawn of Dynasty 18 (around 1550 BCE) and that alone discounts any possible connection with the Hebrews. Much too early. In any case, the stela provides an account of what appears to be a memorable flood. This is not evidenced in Exodus, so there again a connection is lacking. Moreover, the general thrust of the inscription is to glorify Ahmose I. It's more typical pharaonic bombast than anything else.

Speos Artemidos: Click here for a translation of the relevant part of the inscription. The Reshafim site is one of the few on the internet I myself trust. I've used it in my own translation exercises. But as to the inscription, Hatshepsut took the throne around 1472 BCE, so here again we have a time period too early to have involved the Hebrews. This portion of the inscription was commissioned to glorify Hatshepsut and her efforts to expel the Asiatics (Hyksos) from Egypt—which is amusing on the face of it because the Hyksos had been gone from Egypt for almost eighty years. But this was a common tactic of pharaohs, who were aggressive self-promoters. The occasional pharaoh, even one of historical significance, was known to copy an earlier pharaoh's inscription verbatim simply to glorify himself. But the overriding fact is that the inscription concerns the Hyksos and has no observable connections with Exodus. The mistake might lie in the common misconception that there was some connection between the Hyksos and the Hebrews, but of course there was not. Such a connection is impossible.

El Arish inscription: Click here for a detailed discussion of this artifact, as well as full translations farther down the page. The supposed connections with Exodus originated from the writings of Immanuel Velikovsky, whose work is not taken seriously for a variety of reasons. Velikovsky's interpretation of the inscription has been completely refuted. In truth the El Arish inscription concerns the deities Shu and Geb and was cut in the Ptolemaic Period. No connection with Exodus exists.

Admonitions of Ipuwer: Click here for a decent translation of the text. This comes from the Reshafim site, too. Scholars are divided on the time period to which the original text dates, but most would agree the story in the text concerns either the upheavals of the First Intermediate Period or the hegemony of the Hyksos in the Second Intermediate Period. Either is possible based on the tenor and events described in the text. The First Intermediate Period began around 2200 BCE so, again, this is a time period a very long time before the emergence of the Hebrews. The Hyksos we've already reviewed, and no connection with a Hebrew tradition is tenable.

In writing this outline of inscriptions and texts I am perfectly aware that some scholars of a century ago (or more) themselves saw possible biblical connections (although not with the El Arish inscription, which to my knowledge no historian of any period has seen in this light). Such texts are also popular with fringe proponents and New Agers, so obviously neither of these groups is to be taken seriously. What's important is to consult current research and analyze it in the scope of what we legitimately know about pharaonic history based on extant evidence.

When we do so, we see a repeating pattern that has been stressed right here at UM many times: no evidence for an event like Exodus exists in any form from pharaonic sources.

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Kmt, sorry for late response.

Some researchers states that there were two eruption of Thera. One cca 1600 second 1500. So Tempest stela in that light could work.

What Speos Artemidos tell us? Similar to Exodus? Hm

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Kmt, sorry for late response.

Some researchers states that there were two eruption of Thera. One cca 1600 second 1500. So Tempest stela in that light could work.

What Speos Artemidos tell us? Similar to Exodus? Hm

That's not reflected in the geological history of Santorini which places the eruption about 1610 BC with the next eruption not happening until 197 BC.

http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=0102-04=&volpage=erupt

cormac

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Kmt, sorry for late response.

Some researchers states that there were two eruption of Thera. One cca 1600 second 1500. So Tempest stela in that light could work.

Cormac already provided information on the geological history of Santorini. I'm not sure who the researchers are you mentioned, but they would not seem to be fully informed on the subject.

As for the Tempest Stela, I cannot deny the possibility that it records indirect climatic influences of the Thera eruption. The timing is somewhat off, but it's possible Ahmose I reigned slightly earlier than relative dating has long held. That date would be 1550 BCE or thereabouts, depending on whose timeline you prefer. As I recall, the Thera eruption is dated to 1628 BCE based on carbon dating. Give or take fifty years, the possibility is there.

That being the case, it's not sensible to look at every climatic upheaval in ancient times as somehow related to Exodus. The fact is, while the Tempest Stela records unusual rains and floods for the Nile Valley, it does not jibe in any realistic sense with the details found in Exodus.

What Speos Artemidos tell us? Similar to Exodus? Hm

No, this one is even more removed from Exodus. Hatshepsut's inscription is about the expulsion of the Hyksos. It has nothing to do with the Hebrews, nor is there any recognizable similarity to the biblical tale.

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Reasons I still hold to the idea that Ahmod Osman`s Akhenaten may have been Moses.

Both had the belief in a single god.

There is evidence of plague at Amarna where some of Akhentan family may had died from.

Both men were of a deformity

Moses was a Egyptain

http://www.spiritweb.us/egypt/akhenaten.html

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Cormac already provided information on the geological history of Santorini. I'm not sure who the researchers are you mentioned, but they would not seem to be fully informed on the subject.

As for the Tempest Stela, I cannot deny the possibility that it records indirect climatic influences of the Thera eruption. The timing is somewhat off, but it's possible Ahmose I reigned slightly earlier than relative dating has long held. That date would be 1550 BCE or thereabouts, depending on whose timeline you prefer. As I recall, the Thera eruption is dated to 1628 BCE based on carbon dating. Give or take fifty years, the possibility is there.

That being the case, it's not sensible to look at every climatic upheaval in ancient times as somehow related to Exodus. The fact is, while the Tempest Stela records unusual rains and floods for the Nile Valley, it does not jibe in any realistic sense with the details found in Exodus.

No, this one is even more removed from Exodus. Hatshepsut's inscription is about the expulsion of the Hyksos. It has nothing to do with the Hebrews, nor is there any recognizable similarity to the biblical tale.

Per the article "Radiocarbon-Based Chronology for Dynastic Egypt", a 95 percentile date for Ahmose I would place him between 1570 and 1544 with a median date of 1557. Since the date for Santorini's explosion has been calculated at 1613 +/- 10 BC any connection between Santorini and Egypt would have to have occurred during one of Ahmose I's successor's. Perhaps Kamose or Sequenenre Ta'o II.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2142040/posts

cormac

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The three days of darkness of the plague, were the smoke people put in the houses ,trying to get rid of the bugs, smoking them out.:)

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Reasons I still hold to the idea that Ahmod Osman`s Akhenaten may have been Moses.

Both had the belief in a single god.

There is evidence of plague at Amarna where some of Akhentan family may had died from.

Both men were of a deformity.

Moses was a Egyptain.

http://www.spiritweb.../akhenaten.html

Moses had a belief in one god, a Hebrew god. Akhenaten held a belief that Aten was predominant over all, yet there is no evidence that he enforced a one-god belief to any real degree since some individuals seen as having lived at Amarna retained names associated with other Egyptian deities. Thoth being one example.

There is no physical evidence that Akhenaten had a deformity.

Moses was, according to the Bible, a Hebrew raised by Egyptians. That's not the same thing as being an Egyptian.

cormac

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there`s no where in egyptain history these plagues could have taken place as told.

The plaques don`t fit as in any time line of a big catastrophic event. It could simplely be plagues of sickness from the epidemic ,lice, frogs dancing in the bellies, water turned red from the dumping of all the bodies, days of darkness, they smoke out their houses for days the ceilings were black from the soot.

The Bubonic Plague means you bleed internally, and your urine has blood in it, could this be what was meant by the ( their )water turned to blood

Edited by docyabut2

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In the second century CE (or AD), a Jewish document called the Seder Olam Rabbah identified the year 1312 BC as the date of the Exodus. All the way down to the present time, that 1312 BC date has continued to be accepted by "orthodox" Rabbis.

That was close to the time right after Akhenaten, 1350 -1334.,and

Ramesses was the pharaoh most responsible for erasing the Amarna Period from history. Where did the Bible story ever get the plagues? There was a epidemic at Amarna the reason for its abandonment

It was my guess that maybe the plagues of the Moses`s exodus were more of a epidemic

When we think of the Black Death or Plague we are transported to the filthy streets fourteenth century London; a city overrun with rats and where hygiene comprised washing once a year. We certainly do not associate such an epidemic with the pristine white streets of the eighteenth dynasty (1350-1334 BCE) city of Tell el Amarna. However archaeological evidence from the workmen village at Amarna suggests that the ancient city may well have been wiped out by an out-of-control pandemic similar to the one that ravished Europe, killing more than 50% of the population.

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Comic there no time in egyptain history that would relate to Moses,then in the time of Akhentan.These egyptian mummies that are found, they are not really sure who was really who. There could have been a son or grand son of akthenten`s father, or a another line of the Ramesses that wared with Akhentan.

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Comic there no time in egyptain history that would relate to Moses,then in the time of Akhentan.These egyptian mummies that are found, they are not really sure who was really who. There could have been a son or grand son of akthenten`s father, or a another line of the Ramesses that wared with Akhentan.

Yet there's no evidence, physically or textually, of such being true. Nor is there any evidence for an Egyptian ruler of either the 18th or 19th Dynasties being of non-Egyptian birth. This doesn't help your position at all.

cormac

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Akhenaten was the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiy, a descendent of a Hebrew tribe. The largest statue in the Cairo Museum shows Amenhotep III and his family. He and Queen Tiy (pronounced 'Tee') had four daughters and two sons. Akhenaten's brother, Tutmoses was later named high priest of Memphis. The other son, Amenhotep IV (Later to take the name Akhenaten) seemed to be ignored by the rest of the family. He never appeared in any portraits and was never taken to public events. He received no honors. It was as if the God Amun had excluded him. He was rejected by the world for some unknown reason. He was never shown with his family nor mentioned on monuments. Yet his mother favored him.

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Akhenaten was the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiy, a descendent of a Hebrew tribe. The largest statue in the Cairo Museum shows Amenhotep III and his family. He and Queen Tiy (pronounced 'Tee') had four daughters and two sons. Akhenaten's brother, Tutmoses was later named high priest of Memphis. The other son, Amenhotep IV (Later to take the name Akhenaten) seemed to be ignored by the rest of the family. He never appeared in any portraits and was never taken to public events. He received no honors. It was as if the God Amun had excluded him. He was rejected by the world for some unknown reason. He was never shown with his family nor mentioned on monuments. Yet his mother favored him.

The biggest (but not only) flaw in this argument is that there's no evidence that Tiy, as daughter of Yuya and Thuya, was of Hebrew descent for two reasons. 1) There were no Hebrews, as such, in the 14th century BC and 2) Yuya and Thuya were both Egyptian nobles.

cormac

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Who was MOSES ? Where he lived? Why modern world lost his traces? Who were Jews? Are/were they Semites?Who and what is Shem, Japhet and ham?we can't say egyptians are shemites?why?IS IT ACCURATE to say bible story is historically true? when i suggest kenyan tribes had more jewish element than ASHKANZI or other type of jews , greecian, celtic, ireland...will you say this is improbable?where were practised the best example of perfect DIVINE LAW /human law?IN greece ?best democratic spiritually perfect Gaddaa system in EAST AFRICA?

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qoute-There were no Hebrews, as such, in the 14th century BC .

But yet there were the Habirus nomadic tribes around for a long time And did`t Abraham a hebrew or perhaps pronounce Habirus came from the Mesoptamia area to settle in Canaan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

Abram is referred to as a Hebrew (Ivri), possibly because he was descended from Eber or possibly because he came from the "other side" (eber) of the Euphrates River.

http://www.jewishvir...hy/abraham.html

Edited by docyabut2

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The Habiru had a Deity whose Name was unknown to the other peoples, and also to themselves, as the Name was not revealed to anybody before Mosheh Rabainu. The fact that their Divinity's name was unknown is a further proof that identifies them with the "Children of Ever". The enigmatic MalkiTzedek, kohen of El-Elyon (Bereshyit 14:18), whoever he was corresponds to the characteristics of a Habiru authority, holder of the original spirituality which Avraham himself followed.

http://www.imninalu.net/Habiru.htm

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qoute-There were no Hebrews, as such, in the 14th century BC .

But yet there were the Habirus nomadic tribes around for a long time And did`t Abraham a hebrew or perhaps pronounce Habirus came from the Mesoptamia area to settle in Canaan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

Abram is referred to as a Hebrew (Ivri), possibly because he was descended from Eber or possibly because he came from the "other side" (eber) of the Euphrates River.

http://www.jewishvir...hy/abraham.html

Go back and read your link a bit more closely. Getting past the fact that Wikipedia should not be used as a primary source for your information, as shown in your link the designation "tribe" is a bit of a misnomer as the Habiru far less than a tribe, as seen here from your link:

Carol Redmount who wrote 'Bitter Lives: Israel in and out of Egypt' in The Oxford History of the Biblical World concluded that the term "Habiru" had no common ethnic affiliations, that they spoke no common language, and that they normally led a marginal and sometimes lawless existence on the fringes of settled society. She defines the various Apiru/Habiru as "a loosely defined, inferior social class composed of shifting and shifty population elements without secure ties to settled communities" who are referred to "as outlaws, mercenaries, and slaves" in ancient texts. In that vein, some modern scholars consider the Habiru to be more of a social designation than an ethnic or a tribal one.

This is NOT the way the Hebrews are described in the Bible. And while the earliest accounts of the Habiru are form sites such as Aleppo, Syria and Alalakh, Turkey (meaning the northern Levant) Abraham is said to have come from Ur of the Chaldees which is located in southern Mesopotamia (southeastern Iraq).

cormac

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Akhenaten was the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiy, a descendent of a Hebrew tribe. The largest statue in the Cairo Museum shows Amenhotep III and his family. He and Queen Tiy (pronounced 'Tee') had four daughters and two sons. Akhenaten's brother, Tutmoses was later named high priest of Memphis. The other son, Amenhotep IV (Later to take the name Akhenaten) seemed to be ignored by the rest of the family. He never appeared in any portraits and was never taken to public events. He received no honors. It was as if the God Amun had excluded him. He was rejected by the world for some unknown reason. He was never shown with his family nor mentioned on monuments. Yet his mother favored him.

I'm going to have to echo cormac a couple of times here, but it can't be helped. What I can do is elaborate, however. Long ago scholars suspected Tiye's parents, Yuya and Tjuya, may have been from Canaan. Not as Hebrews, mind you, because that's a critical distinction to bear in mind. And the main reasons for this idea? Yuya's and Tjuya's names are spelled quite a few different ways in hieroglyphs, and Yuya's mummy reveals he was a fairly tall man to have been an Egyptian.

These aren't exactly credible criteria for claiming Tiye's parentage as Canaanite. And for this reason, the theory was discarded long ago. We can trace Yuya and Tjuya to the city of Akhmim, where they were evidently a family of nobility and high standing. There's nothing really to suggest they weren't Egyptian.

It's true that Akhenaten is poorly attested prior to his ascension to the throne. However, "never shown" is incorrect. Akhenaten is attested at Malqata, the palace of Amunhotep III in western Thebes. I suspect the only reason his mother is so closely aligned with Akhenaten is that he was her last son in line for the throne. Tiye probably showed similar devotion to Tuhtmose when he was crown prince.

In any case there is no evidence the Hebrews yet existed at this early point.

qoute-There were no Hebrews, as such, in the 14th century BC .

But yet there were the Habirus nomadic tribes around for a long time And did`t Abraham a hebrew or perhaps pronounce Habirus came from the Mesoptamia area to settle in Canaan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

...

Again echoing cormac, I caution in the strongest terms not to confuse the Habiru and Hebrews. There is no connection between them. Not only were the Habiru a loose collection of various tribes and ethnicities of largely disenfranchised peoples, they appeared on the scene well before the emergence of the Hebrews and ranged a territory much larger than the Hebrews ever did. The word "Habiru" itself is simply a modern Western rendering for the word, which seems to have been pronounced in different ways by different kingdoms.

I also second comrac's admonition: do not use Wiki as primary source material. There is a huge body of professional literature on the development of the Hebrews as an identifiable culture, and there is even a sizable collection of papers and articles on the Habiru. Use professional literature, not Wikipedia.

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Frist of all I like to study and make up my own mind on all the opinions.

As Osman points out, Yuya is the only Egyptian mummy to have his hands placed under his chin rather than across his chest, he has what appears to be Semtic features, and a beard style similar to that of the ancient Hebrews, whereas Egyptian officials were known to shave their facial hair.

And this article( not from wikpedia:) convinces me that the habiru were perhaps the hebrews.

http://www.imninalu.net/Habiru.htm

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