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Still Waters

Anders Breivik decries 'inhumane' prison

105 posts in this topic

You do know the difference between Conservatism and National Socialism dont you?

Yes, but it’s irrelevant here. The topic is Breivik, undisputed mass murderer and I’m claiming here that his ideology and his deeds are in obvious, direct relation while you claim what he did was not directly or not at all related to his political beliefs. Which is more realistic notion?

I dont think I need to spell out to you that Hitler was about genocide, carving out an empire, slavery and establishing the Germans as a super race. After all you are Croatian and your people were on his side!

Maybe thats the problem. Maybe you are so hysterical after WW2 you see the worst possible scenario when it comes to people calling for anti--immigration policies. You also see the odd looney like brevik do something and your brain practically implodes.

Anyone who claims “Croats were on Hitler’s side” is not only a bigot, but also a revisionist, because the well documented truth about WWII is very much different than your local habit of demonising nations that your politics see as obstacles in arranging the world according to your dreams of lost empire rising again.

Lets make this clear for you. The odd nutter like Brevik is a rare type of person. Only 0.0001% of Conservative thinking people are like him. So calm down and stop thinking everyone who is right-wing has a SS uniform in their attic.

Psychopaths are more common than that, but I do believe you don’t sport SS uniforms, it would contradict your Euro-scepticism.

Anders Breivik was fundamentally a nationalist. He wasn't "Totalitarian".

Have you ever met a nationalist who had no totalitarian tendencies? I haven’t. I also believe democracy can’t survive in true nationalist environment. I’ve seen first-hand how it works, so bear with me. At first you have few political parties, all nationalist and democratic, some more right than others. Soon the most “pure” in appearance (but the most corrupt in the reality) pushes the competition out. Democracy becomes mere decorum, if you say anything even mildly critic about the ruling party, you are not a patriot. You are against your nation. A traitor. I don’t think you can fully imagine how it feels until you try it out. Handfull of corrupt actual traitors accuses the actual patriots of treason. Nation follows the leaders, because no-oh, they don't want the traitor label. No, no, no. It's not good for business or health.

It's social avalanche, you can't stop it. Just wait for it to go downhill, try to step aside and look for survivors when it's over. It's bound to happen because of what I call "the taliban spiral": people have constant need to prove they are better at something, more in tune, more in line. It starts benign, but soon becomes grotesque, because you have to keep finding more insanely radical ways to exalt yourself. Watching it happen, knowing how childish in its nature that process is, makes my mind bleed.

I agreed with most of the cultural and societal critiques.

I don't agree with some things. He was a global warming denier (if I recall), I'm mostly secular on religion, however to be fair he wasn't religious really, it was more of a cultural thing. I don't believe in "Eurabia", it makes about as much sense to me as the ZOG conspiracies out there.

I’m amazed.

You just calmly stepped around dead kids. Like Breivik’s opinion on global warming matters more than lives he took.

You may disagree with him on global warming or what nickname for Muslim bogeyman you’ll use, but don’t you realise that you agree with him on the most important issue, the need to control the society, and that – for the obvious god’s sake – is why he killed those kids.

Old Marxism wasn't the same thing. It is true oldschool marxists were against immigration and such. May wanna check out some Neo-Marxist Frankfurt school texts, however.

No, thanks. We don’t want to wake up that particular personality of mine. (One of the reasons why I froth in this thread is because I’m aware of my own psychopathy. Not because I think I’m morally superior, no, quite contrary. There are things I’d die and kill for. Please, let’s make the world a little less likely to give me a chance to do either or both of those.)

I'm not making a shallow "they took our jobs" argument. Going more into cultural genocide and such. I am not a racial separatist, more interested in culture and identity. That may just be me speaking as an American.

I am not denying that capitalism does go hand in hand in this, something the left doesn't want to admit.

Culture and identity, absolutely, only with dignity and no blame games. No trying to turn the wheel back either, the societies do evolve, that’s something no one ever could stop. But everyone does have their micro-influence in that process. Since I rather create than destroy, I want my share to be positive, even though the outcome is beyond me and it's likely it won't be positive.

Well we are materialistic shallow trash now. Understandable.

People of WalMart. I rest my case.

True! All our politicians (including most of yours) are a detached intellectual class.

Very attached to money, oil and other flows.

Breivik was an Israel lover and was anti-Nazi.

Of course he was. What not to love about the life behind the wall? So why is he complaining now? He got the kind of accomodation he recommended for everyone else.

Speaking of which, the term Nazi should be avoided, it stands for something completely else than it is generously used today. Except constructions like Grammar-Nazi, these are hilarious.

I prefer totalitarian, covers it much better, creates less confusion and also helps avoid bringing some of the most abused labels of all times into discussions. (I see your "Nazi!" and raise you an "Anti-Semite!".)

It is a combination of factors.

Yes, it is. It’s also damn annoying to watch something go all wrong and feel like you can’t do anything about it. I understand that and that’s why I appeal on all of you to try to not go too far in your justified revolt. Pretty please, try to realistically assess your situation. Because this is a small world, and your situation is mine too.

Right, I'm a roleplayer. Okay! Thanks for the assumptions! We can end this here then.

We can, but you owe me a creative insult back. Seriously. It’s good for venting the frustrations that we share. Come on, I know it would be so damn multikulti thing to do, but I promise my culture is mostly compatible with yours. *fingers crossed behind my back* ;)

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Yes, but it’s irrelevant here. The topic is Breivik, undisputed mass murderer and I’m claiming here that his ideology and his deeds are in obvious, direct relation while you claim what he did was not directly or not at all related to his political beliefs. Which is more realistic notion?

Whilst true it is irrelevant. Fundamentally irrelevant, because by that logic all beliefs of any side lead to mass murder. The point is that I don't believe any belief can be illegitimatized by action, or else. Christians have killed for their views, no one except hardcore atheists are arguing by that logic Christianity is always bad. Yes, he committed his crimes in the name of Nationalism, but we can't use that as an intellectual block to discredit discussing the actual issues of cultural marxism and whatnot, because anyone can decide whether to deal with the problem with violence or not - he chose the latter. Maybe violence is the only answer with how Orwellian this society has become, and he felt helpless?

Anyone who claims “Croats were on Hitler’s side” is not only a bigot, but also a revisionist,

He is probably referring to the Ustaše.

Psychopaths are more common than that, but I do believe you don’t sport SS uniforms, it would contradict your Euro-scepticism.

As someone who is into psychology as a hobby, I don't think anyone here knows what a real psychopath is. A psychopath is someone who has no empathy or emotions at all - that means they probably are not likely to commit crimes of passion. They're more likely to be calm, collected, and manipulative.

Believe me when I tell you this, when it comes to extremism then selective empathy for your opponents is easily triggered. If you also intellectually convince yourself murder is the only answer, you may be able to gather up the willpower to do so. Hate is powerful, and you can easily justify killing in the name of something you hold dear.

Narcissism is more likely, since psychologically they are similar to Borderlines - extremely emotional, as such can be extremely hateful.

Have you ever met a nationalist who had no totalitarian tendencies? I haven’t.

I am actually skeptical of universal suffrage, but having no democracy does not equal totalitarian. I was contesting the fact that Breivik was totalitarian. I actually believe a lot of these new nationalist types are afraid of totalitarianism/authoritarianism in principle because they perceive the cultural marxists as orwellian and totalitarian and want to oppose them on all philosophical areas, hence you find a lot of these right-libertarians throwing freedom around...yet because they believe in liberty you start questioning how the hell they intend to make massive social reforms and fix society.

It is neurotic and they're too cowardly to accept that sometimes you need an authoritarian hand. Maybe I could say the same for Breivik.

I also believe democracy can’t survive in true nationalist environment.

It can if there's no internal threats to deal with. The U.S.A. remained very organic most of it's existence until the 60's, then we fell faster than everyone else to consumerism.

I’m amazed.

You just calmly stepped around dead kids. Like Breivik’s opinion on global warming matters more than lives he took.

Because I don't consider the actions relevent. I'm analyzing his views, this **** goes without saying. Do you want me to affix an addendum to each post that says "I do NOT believe in murdering kids!" like some pedantic autistic?

You may disagree with him on global warming or what nickname for Muslim bogeyman you’ll use, but don’t you realise that you agree with him on the most important issue, the need to control the society, and that – for the obvious god’s sake – is why he killed those kids.

So believing that you need to control society means I want to kill kids? You can choose how to act on any belief you wish, he decided to kill kids. This is actually extremely logical for any sane person to understand, which means, as you are not stupid, you are pointless beating me over the head with it to seem like the more "moral" person here. It is intellectually dishonest.

As I said, any ideological views can have multiple ways of being implemented. He decided he wanted to kill a lot of socialists to prevent possible future politicians. Whilst pragmatic in theory, he failed to take into account the horrendous amount of backlash that caused towards people with beliefs like his. That is where he failed, though time will tell if it awakened enough people to matter - I doubt it. Cause - effect.

I am not discussing this emotionally or morally because morals have nothing to do with an objective analysis. Forgive me if I detach myself, it is a habit of mine.

No, thanks. We don’t want to wake up that particular personality of mine. (One of the reasons why I froth in this thread is because I’m aware of my own psychopathy. Not because I think I’m morally superior, no, quite contrary. There are things I’d die and kill for. Please, let’s make the world a little less likely to give me a chance to do either or both of those.)

Maybe you're a smarter person than me. Reading some of the stuff said by Frankfurt school philosophers made me furious.

Culture and identity, absolutely, only with dignity and no blame games. No trying to turn the wheel back either, the societies do evolve, that’s something no one ever could stop. But everyone does have their micro-influence in that process. Since I rather create than destroy, I want my share to be positive, even though the outcome is beyond me and it's likely it won't be positive.

How you choose to respond is your own.

Of course he was. What not to love about the life behind the wall? So why is he complaining now? He got the kind of accomodation he recommended for everyone else.

Speaking of which, the term Nazi should be avoided, it stands for something completely else than it is generously used today. Except constructions like Grammar-Nazi, these are hilarious.

I prefer totalitarian, covers it much better, creates less confusion and also helps avoid bringing some of the most abused labels of all times into discussions. (I see your "Nazi!" and raise you an "Anti-Semite!".)

I find it amusing how so many people on the far right rejected Breivik as a "Zionist" when you can rationalize with five seconds of thought why he supported what he did.

Yes, it is. It’s also damn annoying to watch something go all wrong and feel like you can’t do anything about it. I understand that and that’s why I appeal on all of you to try to not go too far in your justified revolt. Pretty please, try to realistically assess your situation. Because this is a small world, and your situation is mine too.

Try reading about what happened to Rhodesia and what's happening to Afrikaners. It's hard to hold in anger. I try to keep my sanity however.

We can, but you owe me a creative insult back. Seriously. It’s good for venting the frustrations that we share. Come on, I know it would be so damn multikulti thing to do, but I promise my culture is mostly compatible with yours. *fingers crossed behind my back* ;)

I don't like insulting people in civil conversations. No justification.

Edited by Gravitorbox

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1. Yes, but it’s irrelevant here. The topic is Breivik, undisputed mass murderer and I’m claiming here that his ideology and his deeds are in obvious, direct relation while you claim what he did was not directly or not at all related to his political beliefs. Which is more realistic notion?

2. Anyone who claims “Croats were on Hitler’s side” is not only a bigot, but also a revisionist, because the well documented truth about WWII is very much different than your local habit of demonising nations that your politics see as obstacles in arranging the world according to your dreams of lost empire rising again.

3. Psychopaths are more common than that, but I do believe you don’t sport SS uniforms, it would contradict your Euro-scepticism.

1. If his ideology caused him to do the massacre then the same ideology, present in millions of people today, would mean there are millions of massacres being commited. Can I ask where they all are? His ideology didnt cause the massacre his narcissistic personality disorder did and I dont understand why you cant see that.

2. My country had to come save you lot because the Serbs were genociding you in the 90s. They were genociding you in revenge for you genociding them on Hilters orders during WW2. Memories like that dont fade so its best to treat your neighbours nicely.

3. So you acknowledge Brevik is a psychopath? All we need to get you to see now is that Conservatives arent psychopaths just because of their ideology.

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Breivik's manifesto. Someone said that he referenced sources for his ideology.

Start a new thread, list those references and if you agree with them, prepare to defend that ideology.

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Whilst true it is irrelevant. Fundamentally irrelevant, because by that logic all beliefs of any side lead to mass murder. The point is that I don't believe any belief can be illegitimatized by action, or else. Christians have killed for their views, no one except hardcore atheists are arguing by that logic Christianity is always bad. Yes, he committed his crimes in the name of Nationalism, but we can't use that as an intellectual block to discredit discussing the actual issues of cultural marxism and whatnot, because anyone can decide whether to deal with the problem with violence or not - he chose the latter. Maybe violence is the only answer with how Orwellian this society has become, and he felt helpless?

While it’s certainly true that every person has its own interpretation of everything, ideologies included, it’s also very obviously true that some ideologies cannot be applied in constructive way simply because their fundamental postulates are destructive.

Once you set society on fire, not only you won’t be able to tell how will that fire spread, what it will destroy, but you also won’t be able to extinguish it anymore. Since you don’t believe me or history, you will probably have to find that out from your own experience.

In short: fighting something you perceive as lefty Orwellian with psychopath methods will land you into right but still Orwellian crap. Personally, I don’t care that much for iconography. Crap is crap, be it more red or black hue.

He is probably referring to the Ustaše.

And I’m referring to my Croatian partisan grandparents, marshal Josip Broz Tito and both official and oral history of my land and my peoples. When British empire nostalgists falsify history they are offending me personally.

WWII in this part of the world is huge topic that tolerates no simplifications. If you are genuinely interested, start a thread. I won’t desecrate my heritage by smearing it all over – pffft – Breivik thread. Except for MRW, see below ^_^

As someone who is into psychology as a hobby, I don't think anyone here knows what a real psychopath is. A psychopath is someone who has no empathy or emotions at all - that means they probably are not likely to commit crimes of passion. They're more likely to be calm, collected, and manipulative.

Believe me when I tell you this, when it comes to extremism then selective empathy for your opponents is easily triggered. If you also intellectually convince yourself murder is the only answer, you may be able to gather up the willpower to do so. Hate is powerful, and you can easily justify killing in the name of something you hold dear.

Narcissism is more likely, since psychologically they are similar to Borderlines - extremely emotional, as such can be extremely hateful.

Thank god you made it, we were in danger of not classifying it right.

They say he's not stupid, so I assume he was aware of all the possibilities. Only a psychopath can disregard fear of having his narcissist ass eliminated by the police by procedural mistake of head smashing proportions. On the other hand, guy evidently has severe death-by-person-in-uniform fetish, so getting killed while being roughly handled by the police might have been the best outcome possible. This is family site, so I suggest we drop this particular nitpicking.

I am actually skeptical of universal suffrage, but having no democracy does not equal totalitarian. I was contesting the fact that Breivik was totalitarian. I actually believe a lot of these new nationalist types are afraid of totalitarianism/authoritarianism in principle because they perceive the cultural marxists as orwellian and totalitarian and want to oppose them on all philosophical areas, hence you find a lot of these right-libertarians throwing freedom around...yet because they believe in liberty you start questioning how the hell they intend to make massive social reforms and fix society.

It is neurotic and they're too cowardly to accept that sometimes you need an authoritarian hand. Maybe I could say the same for Breivik.

To be brutally honest, I don’t care for theoretical philosophy or ideology much. Religion goes there too to some extent, but I don’t want to digress more than I do. These are sports for privileged kids, who can afford walk on clouds while the rest of us needs all the brain and muscle power applied in reality.

I find Breiviks offensively arrogant. Who the **** are you, kid, to tell me who my enemy is and how the **** dare you suggest I need your cowardly ass to defend me? Me? From children? Really?

I don’t need parasites of any kind, shape or hue to write me manifestos. Just apply the ****en common sense: we can’t have unbalanced society, we can’t go around killing people, we can’t **** in the middle of the room and then be all surprised when it stinks. No authority, just common sense.

The bottom line is, I don’t care what label will be put on someone’s actions. They speak for themselves. I don’t care what book someone is thumping in attempt to excuse the inexcusable. This is me, these are my actions. I stand clean before god in which I don’t quite believe. (I’m the living proof the religion is not necessary for morality.)

There’s no other way than personal changes. Seems futile. Am I tempted to agree we need a firm hand? Sure. Am I good enough for such task? Hell, no! He who thinks he is – is not sane. Would I like a lunatic in power? What, again?! Nooo-oh.

It can if there's no internal threats to deal with. The U.S.A. remained very organic most of it's existence until the 60's, then we fell faster than everyone else to consumerism.

Democracy in USA? You kidding me? You have election shows but the democracy was last seen swimming across Atlantic chased by insatiable sharks. It did, however, survive. In spirit of small communities where people still care about others and remember the art of compromise is what kept them alive.

Because I don't consider the actions relevent. I'm analyzing his views, this **** goes without saying. Do you want me to affix an addendum to each post that says "I do NOT believe in murdering kids!" like some pedantic autistic?

And I claim the analysis is incomplete if dead kids are dropped out of it. Actually, the analysis is worthless if they, the key part, are dropped out.

Because, you know, I have to be still breathing if you want me to discuss global warming.

So believing that you need to control society means I want to kill kids? You can choose how to act on any belief you wish, he decided to kill kids. This is actually extremely logical for any sane person to understand, which means, as you are not stupid, you are pointless beating me over the head with it to seem like the more "moral" person here. It is intellectually dishonest.

As I said, any ideological views can have multiple ways of being implemented. He decided he wanted to kill a lot of socialists to prevent possible future politicians. Whilst pragmatic in theory, he failed to take into account the horrendous amount of backlash that caused towards people with beliefs like his. That is where he failed, though time will tell if it awakened enough people to matter - I doubt it. Cause - effect.

I am not discussing this emotionally or morally because morals have nothing to do with an objective analysis. Forgive me if I detach myself, it is a habit of mine.

No, I specified I'm aware of my own immoral potential. Just because I'm fair enough to admit my own faults (warn about them if you please) doesn't mean I'm willing or able to fix them.

As for beating you over the head, hey, I thought you advocate firm guidance. It's for your own good, I'm leading you to the better future by giving you Pavlovlev reflex to dead kids. Each time someone mentions killing children, you'll instinctively remember me and cover your head. That should render you useless for speeches, but will help you save your head in case of war. Because where dead kids are, there is soon the revenge too. It's a fact of life.

Emotions (and true moral, which stems from emotions) have everything to do with objective and complete analysis of society. We are not discussing steam engines, we are discussing people.

I despise those who told you it’s possible to come to any sane or even relevant conclusion through detached process.

A surgeon must not think about patient’s pain while operating, that’s why there’s an anaesthesiologist in the operation room. But the reason why the **** the operation is being done is the patient’s pain, the need to relieve it.

Extremists, both left and right, are so enthusiastic about social surgeries without anaesthesia you simply can’t help but notice their primary interest is afflicting pain, not curing the disease.

Maybe you're a smarter person than me. Reading some of the stuff said by Frankfurt school philosophers made me furious.

I’m also psychic so I get furious without reading crap that has “Marxism” in its title.

How you choose to respond is your own.

I agree.

But how feeble minded respond is programmed by popular media today. You are programming simple people who read this thread to embrace the little psycho each of us carry inside their mind, I’m programming them to find a true human inside them, bigger than Breivik.

I’m making kindness and consideration cool again.

I find it amusing how so many people on the far right rejected Breivik as a "Zionist" when you can rationalize with five seconds of thought why he supported what he did.

In light of ballistic projectiles flying, I will refrain from tossing terms around. May Jews and Arabs have mercy on each other, since their leaderships have none.

Try reading about what happened to Rhodesia and what's happening to Afrikaners. It's hard to hold in anger. I try to keep my sanity however.

Another huge topic, deserving its own thread. But to remain morbidly honest, my loyalty is with my family. First. No matter what. It’s hardwired and it’s huge mistake to pretend any social conditioning can override it. (Have you had a mild orgasm after reading this? Kidding!) Meaning that though I don’t think Europeans had any right to settle in Africa in the way they did, I cannot ever approve of violence against my family.

This is why every group of people, be it 200 million huge nation or 3 idiots only village, needs highly moral representatives, immune to bribe or vanity, so various Helens are not put into position to choose between justice and family. I’d choose family and I know it. And that’s how wars restart.

Put greedy, vain b****** in power and there’s no need to restart wars since they wouldn’t be ending at all.

What I don’t know is how humanity could drag itself into state of common sense, with saint representatives. But I’m damn sure Breivik has even less clue about anything real and useful than me, since I spent more time patching real life up than he has spent playing games on line.

I don't like insulting people in civil conversations. No justification.

Sourpuss :D

1. If his ideology caused him to do the massacre then the same ideology, present in millions of people today, would mean there are millions of massacres being commited. Can I ask where they all are? His ideology didnt cause the massacre his narcissistic personality disorder did and I dont understand why you cant see that.

2. My country had to come save you lot because the Serbs were genociding you in the 90s. They were genociding you in revenge for you genociding them on Hilters orders during WW2. Memories like that dont fade so its best to treat your neighbours nicely.

3. So you acknowledge Brevik is a psychopath? All we need to get you to see now is that Conservatives arent psychopaths just because of their ideology.

You are most definitely my favourite troll of all times. *hugs*

1. Have you watched any news lately? Psycho ideologies make it possible for closet psychos to go full psycho.

2. Your country stood on its diplomatic head to help Serbs ethnically cleanse all the territories you promised to Russia. It was US that helped us out. Maybe you don’t know, but my whole nation knows. Serbs know too and are they p***ed off for undelivered promises.

Genocides in ex-Yugoslavia in WWII were horrible.

You can start learning about them here:

http://www.mgb.org.rs/en/permanent-exhibitions/museum-of-the-banjica-conc/picture/banjicki-logor/375

Let me translate that poster from concentration camp Banjica (near Belgrade, in Serbia) museum:

“All Jews must report on April 19th of this current year, at 8 o’clock in the morning, to city police (in Fire command building in Tašmajdan).

Jews who do not respond to this announcement will be shot.”

That’s Jews, others were shot or had their throats cut with no formal announcement.

3. Go back to square one. By the way, if I was Conservative, I'd be very worried with the way you champion me here :D

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