15 States have filed a petition to secede

[Corp]

You think universal health care is oppression but the Patroit Act is just fine? Wow...

[keithisco]

I'm hardly a world traveler but I had made visits to England, Germany, and Italy. I saw the oppression there. It was albeit subtle but it was there. You don't have to be in England to know it. Things like their gun controls and NHS. But Italy was something else. You could see the oppression just dripping off the people. Now, the people were all normal and they were very hospitable. I would definitely go back. They're a very beautiful people. It's something that I can't really put into words but it was something that you could actually feel. It was like an acceptance of their fate and their fate was subjugation.

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??...

Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish!

Edited November 15, 2012 by keithisco

[questionmark]

It's not really capitalism as it was just industrialization. It was the means of production that was controlled by the state. The wealthy were part of the Party or the ruling elite. Capitalism is more in line with a freer market system. In a free market system, the economy is driven by a well educated consumer, not by the state directing it.

Exactly! Just as I stated. Now armed with that, go back and try to understand what is being said.

Then you did it quite awkwardly, because neither Nazi Germany had a state controlled economy nor the US at the time.

[RavenHawk]

It may not have been a free Market, but production of (for example) new designs of tanks or aircraft was done very much on the basis of each company putting forward their own competing designs, and them being selected after evaluation by the military- the competing designs of the Tiger, for instance, from Henschel and Porsche. This could be rather wasteful, with production effort being wasted on constructing several prototypes that no one then wanted, and was probably one big reason why they were out-produced by the U.S, which had a much more centrally controlled system; the Army came up with a design (e.g. the Sherman, crap as it was), and then dozens of firms constructed it. With aircraft it was a similar system to Germany, but after the favoured design was chosen many differnet firms were ordered by the Govt. to produce them, so that too was in effect pretty centrally controlled. Really an effective wartime economy can only be constructed by throwing the Free market out of the window (not to mention Democracy).

Competition isn’t only a hallmark of Capitalism. You had members of the same Party vying for favorability in the Party. That is certainly competition but it is hardly a free market. Initially competition may be wasteful but in the long run, it proves to be more efficient. There are just times in which time and need requires by-passing the competitiveness part. But war has different requirements as well. You can’t run industry under a strictly capitalist system. The difference is that say, in Germany, the state owned industry and in American industry and government worked together with government being the leading entity. Business was not owned by Party members but remained in the private sector.

[Space Commander Travis]

Competition isn't only a hallmark of Capitalism. You had members of the same Party vying for favorability in the Party. That is certainly competition but it is hardly a free market. Initially competition may be wasteful but in the long run, it proves to be more efficient. There are just times in which time and need requires by-passing the competitiveness part. But war has different requirements as well. You can't run industry under a strictly capitalist system. The difference is that say, in Germany, the state owned industry and in American industry and government worked together with government being the leading entity. Business was not owned by Party members but remained in the private sector.

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned; in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really. But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

[questionmark]

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned; in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really. But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

That is, because excluding the novelty effect, those petitions are hardly relevant, so the thread digresses in all directions

[Bama13]

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??...

Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish!

You have never actually been to the US have you? You are just spouting EU propaganda.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you now look more foolish than RavenHawk.

Dang, it is so easy to talk smack to other posters. Call them liars even though you have no clue as to whether they are lying or not.

[RavenHawk]

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??...

Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish!

Oh, this precious. I don’t think you were here – DOH! Yeah, I’ve been imaging it all. I was in England and Germany years ago in the late 80s. It was a short trip, so no, I didn’t see gun control or NHS in action. That is why I said “you don’t have to be there to know that”. But I did see how that affected the British psyche and that stuck with me when I was in Italy many years later in the mid 00s. I saw that same thing afflict the Italians that I did the Brits. It reaffirmed “the curse” over the people. And “the curse” comes from Thomas Harlan’s “Oath of Empire” series. That is the closest that I have been able to come to explaining it in words.

How many people die waiting to see a doctor? What’s the queue like over there? It’s not a GodSend. People will die and you can’t stop it but aggravating it is not for America. We’re just now having to deal with Obamacare. My premiums have dropped a little but my out-of-pocket has skyrocketed. I’ve never spent that much with the old insurance. I’m basically screwed – it won’t pay to be healthy. Just get into the program and take a pill for whatever. This is a GodSend? No it is not. It is entrapment and enslavement. I don’t need the government telling me how to take care of my body. My standards have been higher anyway.

What you felt was freedom. It still exists over here. You were out of the comfort zone of your nanny state so that is what you were feeling. It was the same for me being over there, but I felt the lack of freedom. It was the exact opposite which would make sense.

[RavenHawk]

Then you did it quite awkwardly, because neither Nazi Germany had a state controlled economy nor the US at the time.

No, I wasn’t awkward. You read what I said with a preconceived notion. I’ve been noticing that about you and a few others. You’re just not use to the way I write. The economy was effectively controlled by the state. The Nazi government just wasn’t in power long enough to have *complete* control but it was on path and during the war, it was hard to discern the difference. They were transforming from the Weimar Republic and business could not be turned that quickly, but what you could do was make it a requirement that business owners become part of the Nazi Party and then the Party would control the ownership. That is what is happening with Obamacare and Obama’s fixation on raising taxes on the top 2% for only a mere $75 billion a year. And I wasn’t saying that the US had the same control. Their control was for guidance and leadership in time of war. After the war, business went back to doing the business, business wanted. Could you have said the same thing if Nazi Germany had won? By then, the population of Germany would not have known anything else but Nazism and state control of business. This is why people are signing petition to secede now. Because they’ve learned the lessons of the past.

[RavenHawk]

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned;

I already answered that. The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.

in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.

That is certainly one of the weird exceptions, but by the same token, Opel was never really a major player in the German war industry because of the US connections. There was an issue of trust. Opel was used to build parts for tanks and planes but that’s what you do for your own country. It just wasn’t a key industrial center. If Germany had won, ownership of Opel would have been confiscated by the state.

But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

Yes, it is. Some people just can’t read between the lines and have to challenge everything. It just isn’t conducive to discussing why people in these states would want to secede because one has to write a dissertation to cover all the lesser points which may or may not have anything to do with the subject.

[Corp]

How many people die because they can't afford treatment? Both systems have their flaws, but to claim that only America knows what freedom is...no. Most Europeans are just as free as Americans. And frankly it's foolish and insulting to claim otherwise.

[questionmark]

I already answered that. The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.

BS, the only condition was not being Jewish, and foreign ownership (i.e. Ford, GM, GE, IBM, ITT and what have you) was not curtailed (in fact Henry Ford got an award for his aid to the Reich from Hitler), in fact remained untouched all through the war.

Buy yourself a history book.

[Space Commander Travis]

I already answered that. The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.

That is certainly one of the weird exceptions, but by the same token, Opel was never really a major player in the German war industry because of the US connections. There was an issue of trust. Opel was used to build parts for tanks and planes but that's what you do for your own country. It just wasn't a key industrial center. If Germany had won, ownership of Opel would have been confiscated by the state.

Well, Opel was a major producer of trucks for the German army, to the tune of some 82356 3-ton Opel Blitz 3.6-36 and 3.6-36S trucks, according to the ever-reliable Achtungpanzer.com, but I think we're heading well into Godwin territory now if we're somehow drawing comparisons with O'bamacare and O'bama raising taxes, I think.

Edited November 15, 2012 by 747400

[spud the mackem]

I'm going to go ahead and chime in here... I've not posted anyting since election night in order to not be trolled by either party into an arguement of who won, who didnt and all that good Jazz. I start off by congratulating President Obama on his re-election. I may not agree with his policy, but he is the president... like it or not.

Now, as for these states (I do believe there are now petitions for all 50 states) filing for secession. I do not believe its so much of an "I dont like Obama" movement as it is a "Im fed up with the politics and the debt and the lies and the issues this country has and no one is doing a damn thing to fix them and its all just getting worse" movement. There are many people like me out there who have no true party affiliation. I am not a republican nor a democrat, I consider myself to be mostly conservative but I dont agree with any particular party line. Abortion? Its your choice, just dont expect me to pay for it. Gay Marriage? Your life is your life, just dont do it in my front yard. Gun Control? How about we crack down on the criminals before we go after the hunters... just makes more sense... Immgration? Hell, I have quite a few friends that are hispanic, we get along great. They are all good people, they take care of their familes and they work hard... they do eat some weird stuff... but thats on them... they got here LEGALLY and arent sponging off the system. Welfare/medicaid/unemployment? All good programs when they are utilized correctly, though right now they are abused beyond belief... Im all for giving a hand up, just not a hand out. So, you see, those are just tip of the iceberg topics... I happen to believe that the policies of the last few administrations have left this country with little to no hope and alot of people are starting to wake up and see this. Alot of people see the writing on the wall, many countries have been where we are right now and many countries have fallen in the past. I take these petitions (which are done by citizens, not the state governments) to be a wake up call... And I agree with that wakeup call... You all know just as well as I do that these states are NOT going to leave the union, nor do I beleive they truely want to. I do believe they want the horse poop to stop. Stop pitting man against man on party lines, stop slinging the race card (both sides) stop bickering about he said she said crap... and actually get to work... earn the salary that the US Tax payer pays you. Cut Spending, bring in more business/jobs. STOP trying to take over every part of our lives... It is not the governments place to micromanage... we are not sea monkies. Furthermore... stop with the CIA/FBI soap opera and focus a little more on Benghazi... 4 americans are dead and no one seems to give a rats patoot... as an american and as a soldier... I want to know why they died and why help wasnt delivered in time...

ok, that is all... *steps off my soap box*

Good Post Buddy,it makes sense,to me anyway.I wish they would do the same in my Country (U.K) cheers.

[Dredimus]

Good Post Buddy,it makes sense,to me anyway.I wish they would do the same in my Country (U.K) cheers.

Yeah, just wish more people would stop focusing on certain topics and look at the broad picture. The way things are setup here its a 2 party system and good luck getting a word in if you arent with either of those two parties. Celebrity worship and laziness are killing this country *sighs* I dont see anything changing

[MissMelsWell]

Heh, I have a friend here who works for an international corporation, but she's Swedish, she's working at the corporate campus half the year, and back home in Sweden the rest of the year. i've lived in both the US and the UK and have traveled all over the world with a few exceptions.

People in Europe are NOT oppressed. LOL. That's about the most obtuse thing I've read on the internet in a while. My friend from Sweden made a remark a couple of weeks ago about our political process that just made me sad she said (in English better than native speakers I know in a many cases) "I thought politics in Sweden and Europe were kind of wonky, but you Americans are positively INSANE, I can't wait to go home" ... That not only made me sad, it made me MAD at the overall process here and how utterly ridicuous it is. But it also shows that Europeans are in no way oppressed and in many cases actually like it better at home than here. Again, sad.

[RavenHawk]

Well, Opel was a major producer of trucks for the German army, to the tune of some 82356 3-ton Opel Blitz 3.6-36 and 3.6-36S trucks, according to the ever-reliable Achtungpanzer.com,

I wasn’t arguing that. They were able to produce that many trucks because they utilized Ford’s assembly line technique. But they still weren’t a major player in the Party.

but I think we're heading well into Godwin territory now if we're somehow drawing comparisons with O'bamacare and O'bama raising taxes, I think.

Well, I think that Godwin was more for the overall Hitler. But in this subject, I am using Hitler the statesman as opposed to Hitler the Final Solution. And I think that comparing Obama’s agenda with Hitler the statesman/dictator’s agenda is legitimate. There are many similarities. But we could use Stalin or Mao too.

Edited November 16, 2012 by RavenHawk

[RavenHawk]

People in Europe are NOT oppressed. LOL. That's about the most obtuse thing I've read on the internet in a while. My friend from Sweden made a remark a couple of weeks ago about our political process that just made me sad she said (in English better than native speakers I know in a many cases) "I thought politics in Sweden and Europe were kind of wonky, but you Americans are positively INSANE, I can't wait to go home" ... That not only made me sad, it made me MAD at the overall process here and how utterly ridicuous it is. But it also shows that Europeans are in no way oppressed and in many cases actually like it better at home than here. Again, sad.

If you don’t like oppressed then try enslaved. When you live in a gilded cage, you don’t realize how enslaved you are. When the state takes care of you, you are so unaware of how much the state controls you. Ask your friend what she thinks would happen if and when Sweden will have to institute austerity? How will she feel when the government has to take away her Entitlements and welfare in order to stay solvent? What does she have to say about Greece, England, France, Spain, Italy and all the other European nations in the past couple of years that have seen riots because of austerity? What is she willing to give up to prevent that from happening in her nation?

[spud the mackem]

Yeah, just wish more people would stop focusing on certain topics and look at the broad picture. The way things are setup here its a 2 party system and good luck getting a word in if you arent with either of those two parties. Celebrity worship and laziness are killing this country *sighs* I dont see anything changing

Hi again Buddy,we have a 3 main party system,so at the last election in order to get a majority the Conservatives and Liberals ganged up against the Labour, and its totally FUBAR, no kidding, and now we are down the pan round the bend and heading for the sewer.

[Space Commander Travis]

If you don't like oppressed then try enslaved. When you live in a gilded cage, you don't realize how enslaved you are. When the state takes care of you, you are so unaware of how much the state controls you. Ask your friend what she thinks would happen if and when Sweden will have to institute austerity? How will she feel when the government has to take away her Entitlements and welfare in order to stay solvent? What does she have to say about Greece, England, France, Spain, Italy and all the other European nations in the past couple of years that have seen riots because of austerity? What is she willing to give up to prevent that from happening in her nation?

As oppposed to the blissful worker's paradise of the U.S. system, when the worker is entirely dependent on the goodwill of the firm that employs them and if they're fired (because, for instance, they transfer production to somehere cheaper), or they want to cut wages, then, well, tough? So it's slavery to have something to fall back on in that eventuality, is it? Is it not slavery to your employer if you have no, or negligible, fallback if they decide to switch production to China? i think it's vastly more likely that any employer, even a globe-spanning megacorporation, would be likely to take away jobs and cut wages in order to, well, not even in order to stay solvent, just to boost profits. People don't seem to realise how vulnerable they are if they rely entirely on Capitalism. Being "slaves" to a welfare state actually means that the worker has a lot more freedom, because there's something to fall back on if it doesn't work out.

Are you really trying to say that there is no discontent in the U.S., then, just because there have not been any overt riots? Perhaps that might be taken as a sign of how oppressive the Governement is. I'd have thought all the Repub/Dem squabbling, and all the talk of secession and civil Conflict if Obama won, would amply suggest that there was plenty of that.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Republicans are sore losers

[Antilles]

ah, when did this thread stop discussing secession? In the US anyway.

[JGirl]

Maybe they could join us here in Canada....

what for? if they want their own little countries then so be it. someone will eventually just take them over.