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al-amiyr

The Qur'aan Cosmological Model

276 posts in this topic

Christian apologists have made similar arguments, if a verse is vague enough you can apply it to anything.

Fortuntely it does not apply to these two QCM verses. Did you not see how I have deconstructed them. Do those verses appear vague to you? How do they appear vague? We can discuss them if you wish. If you do not wish to discuss it to defend your assertion then I would conclude that you have lost the argument and have accepted that you did.

Well I do believe that the Bible contains the truth as well. That is what the Qur'aan says. If it did not then the Qur'aan would have been proven incorrect. We are dealing here with The Qur'aan Cosmological Model (QCM), so let us just deal with that now. Thanks otherwise for the input and I am waiting for your response.

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I thought it was considered sacrilegious to translate the Quran into languages other than Arabic.

Your thoughts are correct. It cannot be translated. A translation is only an idea what the Qur'aan is saying. The Qur'aan makes the assertion that it contains all the Models of knowledge and that those Models explain everything in detail. But where are those Models? Knowledge on a high level is required to extract them as you will see at the end of the subject of this thread. You have seen nothing yet. Thanks otherwise for stating your thought.

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Heavens and the earth united as one single unit, means the sum if all matter ie the universe was once all joined to such a small density it is vitally equivalent zero. The verse does not refer to the age of the earth or universe. In context the author is making a passing reference to the beginning of existence ie the universe. The author (of the Quran) is not providing a scientific paper nor a thesis on the matter for you to expect specific details equations etc. The author makes a reference to the most fundamental aspect of existence ie the universe, that it began, that all the matter, time, space etc began from a point when the heavens and earth constituting the universe vast space and that which exists within it were once one body united as a singularity, which was cleft asunder, ie was caused to explode so to speak and expand. Hence why others verses clearly state that it is Allah who is expanding the heavens! Clearly when your limitations on the Quran are evident and you are dependent solely on the translations, your on a weaker footing to fully comprehend.....but try though :)

I love how the usual suspects are flocking to derail this thread. When they arrive they lack any critical thinking or analysis and offer only hollow points such as "this is preaching" or "this is flawed" or "this is vague"! Grow up, man up, grow a pair! Deconstruct his argument cause he has put in the effort to construct and argument, illustrated with detail, breakdown of language, root key words, transportations, translations, everything from non bias non Muslim sources and all you can muster in response are such remarks as the ones I mentioned earlier!

Come on people, be civilised, be honest, if you don't understand, ask! If you don't agree, say why and how, if you want to learn more, simply ask the man, but don't come on and try and derail the thread or throw mud or simply say this is flawed, without any substance to the statement!

The above is a general statement alien, not specifically directed at you mate.

:)

That's richness of Semitic languages and their depth. Just because you don't understand that depth, it's implications and impact, does mean it's a weakness. It's weakness in those who don't comprehend that such languages are far superior to English!

You see even if one word can have many meanings like the words in the Quran are Arabic and have many meanings. What separates it and is an amazing fact is that where words have more than one meaning, all meanings are relevant to it and it's context, implications, structure, placement, positioning, are spot on, that goes for every word in the Quran used and placed. It's perfection, beyond human capacity!

The QCM is what you science folk call the big crunch model or theory.

Based on the BC theory, the universe began with the bigbang, it continues to expand, infect it's expanding faster and faster, that it will reach a point of limitation and collapse back on itself, pretty much like a scroll opening then rolling back on itself! An extension to theory which goes into quantum realms is the big bounce, followed by crunch the universe reverts to a singularity and then something would cause it to expand again and a new universe begins! these theories don't go into what causes the expansion, where did the first singularity come from etc etc these theories are based on empirical scientific data which can be interpreted to create such models of the universe.

The QCM states the universe was once united as a singularity, which was cleft asunder and made to expand (bigbang), it's early stages was dense cosmic smoke from which matter such as stars etc formed, it continues to expand, until it reaches it's limit, it will then collapse back on itself to it's original state (singularity), for it then to repeat the bigbang and form a new universe (creation). That's it in a nut shell, the difference between QCM, BC, BB are that BC and BB do not go into what caused the singularity, the bigbang, expansion, what caused existence. Instead they concentrate on the mechanisms and mechanics of it, which in itself does negate an agent behind mechanisms and mechanics. The QCM offers a model but also presents what was the cause and the author of the Quran presents himself (god) as the cause, by referring to such phenomena in such a fundamental way that a layman and a learned person can understand but the latter can delve deeper! The author if it is god does not require to give specifics such as equations or present scientific papers to make his point, all he has to do is make reference to fundamental scientific phenomena etc. Which by the way when revealed weren't fully understood but the Quran is prophecised to exist till end of time, so surly overtime it reveal new things and has revealed things and overtime science will keep backing it up and confirming it's claims and science is doing it today and has done in the past!

For those who claim science and religion don't mix, this is based on western Christian history, the rest of the world mix science and religion and Islam and science go hand in hand and always have as it's history shows and is acknowledged by western historians.

Apologies on my posts for spelling.....damn iPhone!

No it does not, only amongst the ignorant or those who make no effort!

The beginning is fact whether the bigbang model is accepted it or not observations show that our universe began. What you forget is that video was flawed, because singularity is the limit if science and empirical data, QCM IS BASED ON THAT DATA, the scientist you refer to and the theories they propose deal with metaphysical stuff, ie beyond empirical data and science! That means if you believe on those you ate believing blindly because they don't even adhere to your own standards that you impose on the Quran and other things, they have no empirical proofs at all at least the bigbang is based on current empirical data ie it meets scientific and your standards yet you dismiss it for blind faith in some theory dealing with metaphysics? Irony!

It is I agree, so now you make that statement and impose it on the Quran, all we ask is substantiate your claims don't just say things! Further scrutiny of the above statement will prove to you that no other text claim the things the Quran does. As for linguistic understanding, you dismiss it as though it's nothing yet you have nothing to counter due to linguistic deficiency!

Something united is split and separation, expansion on the other hand is specifically mentioned in other verses but such is depth of language that the verse which refer to splitting etc those words also denote expanse too, linguistically and by virtue of context but that a side expansion of the universe etc is mentioned in other verses as are other cosmological phenomena!

That's richness of Semitic languages and their depth. Just because you don't understand that depth, it's implications and impact, does mean it's a weakness. It's weakness in those who don't comprehend that such languages are far superior to English!

You see even if one word can have many meanings like the words in the Quran are Arabic and have many meanings. What separates it and is an amazing fact is that where words have more than one meaning, all meanings are relevant to it and it's context, implications, structure, placement, positioning, are spot on, that goes for every word in the Quran used and placed. It's perfection, beyond human capacity!

The QCM is what you science folk call the big crunch model or theory.

Based on the BC theory, the universe began with the bigbang, it continues to expand, infect it's expanding faster and faster, that it will reach a point of limitation and collapse back on itself, pretty much like a scroll opening then rolling back on itself! An extension to theory which goes into quantum realms is the big bounce, followed by crunch the universe reverts to a singularity and then something would cause it to expand again and a new universe begins! these theories don't go into what causes the expansion, where did the first singularity come from etc etc these theories are based on empirical scientific data which can be interpreted to create such models of the universe.

The QCM states the universe was once united as a singularity, which was cleft asunder and made to expand (bigbang), it's early stages was dense cosmic smoke from which matter such as stars etc formed, it continues to expand, until it reaches it's limit, it will then collapse back on itself to it's original state (singularity), for it then to repeat the bigbang and form a new universe (creation). That's it in a nut shell, the difference between QCM, BC, BB are that BC and BB do not go into what caused the singularity, the bigbang, expansion, what caused existence. Instead they concentrate on the mechanisms and mechanics of it, which in itself does negate an agent behind mechanisms and mechanics. The QCM offers a model but also presents what was the cause and the author of the Quran presents himself (god) as the cause, by referring to such phenomena in such a fundamental way that a layman and a learned person can understand but the latter can delve deeper! The author if it is god does not require to give specifics such as equations or present scientific papers to make his point, all he has to do is make reference to fundamental scientific phenomena etc. Which by the way when revealed weren't fully understood but the Quran is prophecised to exist till end of time, so surly overtime it reveal new things and has revealed things and overtime science will keep backing it up and confirming it's claims and science is doing it today and has done in the past!

For those who claim science and religion don't mix, this is based on western Christian history, the rest of the world mix science and religion and Islam and science go hand in hand and always have as it's history shows and is acknowledged by western historians.

Apologies on my posts for spelling.....damn iPhone!

No it does not, only amongst the ignorant or those who make no effort!

The beginning is fact whether the bigbang model is accepted it or not observations show that our universe began. What you forget is that video was flawed, because singularity is the limit if science and empirical data, QCM IS BASED ON THAT DATA, the scientist you refer to and the theories they propose deal with metaphysical stuff, ie beyond empirical data and science! That means if you believe on those you ate believing blindly because they don't even adhere to your own standards that you impose on the Quran and other things, they have no empirical proofs at all at least the bigbang is based on current empirical data ie it meets scientific and your standards yet you dismiss it for blind faith in some theory dealing with metaphysics? Irony!

It is I agree, so now you make that statement and impose it on the Quran, all we ask is substantiate your claims don't just say things! Further scrutiny of the above statement will prove to you that no other text claim the things the Quran does. As for linguistic understanding, you dismiss it as though it's nothing yet you have nothing to counter due to linguistic deficiency!

Something united is split and separation, expansion on the other hand is specifically mentioned in other verses but such is depth of language that the verse which refer to splitting etc those words also denote expanse too, linguistically and by virtue of context but that a side expansion of the universe etc is mentioned in other verses as are other cosmological phenomena!

Thanks 'Lion6969' for all the valuable input. I think your continued input will enhance the CQM as we go further and deeper. That is what is needed. Further on we will see what the Qur'aan says about The Big Crunch, The Big Bounce, The Big Bang, and The Big Rip. The QCM goes into great details- including the size and temperature. It will be seen that the whole of Modern Cosmology is but a fraction of what is contained in the Qur'aan. The Qur'aan has a higher cosmology called The Qur'aan Metacosmogonical Model and one higher than that called The Qur'aan Metacosmological Model and beyond that lies The Hidden Book and beyond even that lies The UM (womb, mother, matrix) of The Hidden book.

I have discussed this subject on another forum from another angle and it received the most views and comments in the shortest time. I have not completed my discussions there but will do it here. This forum is very appealing. I hope to discuss other Qur'aan Models as well. Thanks again for the good input.

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Fortuntely it does not apply to these two QCM verses. Did you not see how I have deconstructed them. Do those verses appear vague to you? How do they appear vague?

Because they lack specifics. If someone compared the sky to rolling up a scroll, would you know they are talking about? Not to mention even as an analogy it is wrong.

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Because they lack specifics. If someone compared the sky to rolling up a scroll, would you know they are talking about? Not to mention even as an analogy it is wrong.

I did not yet get to the explanation and analysis of that verse. It is coming later in the day. But let me say something on the matter now. The Qur'aan is not speaking about a two-dimensional rolling up like a parchment here. It is speaking about the curvature of space-time. The universe is not going to come crushing down like a brick falling from the sky but it is going to possess angular momentum like a hurricane or spiral galaxy. The word used in the Qur'aan is Tawaa which I am going to explain by consulting the great Arabic - English dictionary as compiled by Edward William Lane over 53 years prior to the discovery of the expansion of the universe by Edwin Hubble in 1929. Just be a little patient and you will be astounded as to how clear the Qur'aan is on the matter. Just remove from your soul all your preconceived notions. Stick to the scientific method without bias. We are all in search of what is the correct understanding of reality. Thanks so far for the input and I look forward to more.

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I did not yet get to the explanation and analysis of that verse. It is coming later in the day. But let me say something on the matter now. The Qur'aan is not speaking about a two-dimensional rolling up like a parchment here. It is speaking about the curvature of space-time.

Where does the Quran say this?

I'd love to see where the Quran mentions space-time curvature.

I bet it explains brain surgery too.

Edited by Rlyeh

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Where does the Quran say this?

I'd love to see where the Quran mentions space-time curvature.

I bet it explains brain surgery too.

Thanks. I will get to it in more detail later. Not only does the Qur'aan speak about space-time curvature it also states why with all the equations as well. But we will get there. Someone in grade 1 must work his or her way to understand that of grade 12.

Yes it does explain the brain in great detail. My niece is now one of the best brain surgeons in the world. She is only 29 years and lecture in conferences all over the world. They made a special department for her at the hospital. She has already worked on more than thirty brains herself. I have been giving her much info about the Qur'aan and the Brain over many years. I can discuss this subject in great detail. But your asking appears more like making fun other than being truly truthful about the matter.

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Must be read from post #1 #8 #9 #12 #19 #22 #23 #26 and #27.

Defining 'arD the second important Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical term.

Let us now analyze and define the second important Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical term ‘arD as is found in the great Arabic - English dictionary compiled by Edward William Lane over 53 years prior to the discovery of the expansion of the universe by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

What is the ‘arD?

As has been said before ‘arD is derived from the Arabic root verb meaning:-

- he or it became lowly or submissive.

- he or it became or rendered heavy, slow, sluggish, inclining, or propending, to the ground.

-it collected moisture, and became luxuriant with herbage

-it became soft to tread upon, pleasant to sit upon, productive, and good in its herbage or vegetation.

-the ulcer, or sore, became blistered, and wide, and corrupt, and dissundered.

As a noun:

with the definite article ‘the’ it has the following meanings:-

- the earth as opposed to heaven.

-the ground, as meaning the surface of the earth, on which we tread and sit and lie.

-the floor

without the definite article ‘the’ it has the following meanings:-

- a land, or a country.

- a piece of land or ground.

- anything that is low.

Let us analyze the meaning of the word ‘arD from the given definitions and present some statements from the Qur'aan.

When we study the Qur'aan we will see that the word‘arD appears about 461 times in the Qur'aan. When these verses are studied it will be seen that the word ‘arD is representative of an object that is surrounded by space or embedded in space or occupying space. It will further also be seen that the word ‘arD has a number of meanings which adequately describe a range of phenomena; from the stuff of which one's body is composed of; from the soil one can keep in one's hand; the plot of ground one lives upon;the land one lives in; the continent one is associated with; the planet one lives on; and all other planets and objects that clump and occupy space throughout the entire universe as well as all the mass of the universe when brought back together again as one entity called Ratqan .

From here it will be seen that the term ‘arD in addition to being an object occupying space is also the substance of which the physical object consists of. And above all it is the name of the unique planet called the 'arD (the Earth) where ALLAAH (GOD) let man (and woman) dwell to work the good work;then earn his (or her) reward;and then afterwards to be taken to the world of His Mercy and Promise before His Anger is unleashed over billions of years and the universe comes crushing down upon itself and upon all those who were left behind and denied the plea for the mercy to die. That is what is written in the Qur'aan.

The Qur'aan also says that the Earth has similarities to the seven samaawaat.There are the continents that are spreading apart like the expansion and there are the layers of the earth like the structure of the seven samaawaat. There are more similarities that can be discussed but they are not part of this presentation which is to prove our main point of the thread.

The Qur'aan 65:12

It is ALLAAH (God) who created the seven samaawaat, and of the ‘arD their like, between them the Command descending, that you may know that ALLAAH (God) is powerful over everything and that ALLAAH (God) encompasses everything in knowledge.

As we said before the Qur'aan contrasts ‘arD with samaa’ which are two opposing but complementary states of the universe: Matter verses Space; one inherently contractive and the other inherently expansive.

Below is a display of graphical illustrations for the Qur'aan Cosmological Model Technical Term 'arD

QCMdefa1.png

To be continued inshaa allaah (If God had willed).

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Thanks. I will get to it in more detail later. Not only does the Qur'aan speak about space-time curvature it also states why with all the equations as well. But we will get there. Someone in grade 1 must work his or her way to understand that of grade 12.

What is the verse for these equations?
Yes it does explain the brain in great detail. My niece is now one of the best brain surgeons in the world. She is only 29 years and lecture in conferences all over the world. They made a special department for her at the hospital. She has already worked on more than thirty brains herself. I have been giving her much info about the Qur'aan and the Brain over many years. I can discuss this subject in great detail. But your asking appears more like making fun other than being truly truthful about the matter.

Just from the Quran? That's amazaing. If I ever need to carve someone's brain up, I'll be sure to check the Quran first.

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Heavens and the earth united as one single unit, means the sum if all matter ie the universe was once all joined to such a small density it is vitally equivalent zero. The verse does not refer to the age of the earth or universe. In context the author is making a passing reference to the beginning of existence ie the universe. The author (of the Quran) is not providing a scientific paper nor a thesis on the matter for you to expect specific details equations etc. The author makes a reference to the most fundamental aspect of existence ie the universe, that it began, that all the matter, time, space etc began from a point when the heavens and earth constituting the universe vast space and that which exists within it were once one body united as a singularity, which was cleft asunder, ie was caused to explode so to speak and expand. Hence why others verses clearly state that it is Allah who is expanding the heavens! Clearly when your limitations on the Quran are evident and you are dependent solely on the translations, your on a weaker footing to fully comprehend.....but try though :)

I just find it rather interesting that the purported creator of the universe could not dictate the processes of the universe's creation in explicit detail, but instead mislead Muhammad in saying that the earth had been compacted with the stars and heavens when absolutely nothing existed... not even stars, nor the earth... nothing. It just was just a very compacted space. In fact, Allah should be ashamed of himself for not explaining it properly, as it is very misleading.

Secondly, asunder does not mean to "explode"; it means to "break apart", not necessarily indicating an explosion. Though, like all verses, I suppose you can dissect and analyze any part that you wish, and attach any meaning that you wish to the definitions.

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Must be read from post #1 #8 #9 #12 #19 #22 #23 #26 #27 and #58.

We have reached the point in this expatiation of The Qur'aan Cosmological Model that we can begin to penetrate into its depths. Up to this point I have attempted to make known that the Qur'aan does contain a comprehensive explanation for the existence of the universe. As I said in a previous post:-

The Qur’aan Cosmological model is a mathematical and graphical presentation of the origin, evolution, and ultimate fate of the current universe as it is contained in just two verses of the Qur’aan. These two verses provide us with the key words that describe the general evolution of the universe.

Khalqan = Tayyan +Ratqan +Fatqan +2Tayyan +2Ratqan +2Fatqan.

A near example in English:

Creation = Turn in +Rotate + Fire out +2Turn in +2Rotate +2Fire out.

The initial letters of these key words produce the following algorithmic compression;

Kh = T +R +F +2T +2R +2F

Arabic is a language based on what we call root letters. From these root letters the entire language is built up. They are all consonants which are formed into patterns of two’s three’s or four’s. The Arabic language has 28 consonants and a special letter we call laam ‘alif. There are also only three vowels and vowel signs in the language which can be either short or long and when used are written either above or below the consonants to produce the words and in this case the root letters which are all verbs in the third person past tense. Don’t worry about all the details at this stage because they will all be wonderfully and easily explained further on and then everything will be easily understood.

It will be seen that when we run the Qur’aanic cosmological algorithmic compression

Kh = T +R +F +2T +2R +2F

through the fundamental structure of the Arabic language then we witness a magnificent display of verbs, nouns, and adjectives that go back to describe each and every phase of the universe at its exact time and place in great detail. We are presented without exaggeration hundreds of beautiful informative illustrations of the phases the universe undergoes from its cosmological origin, through its cosmological evolution, and until its eventual cosmological end. And upon that we also see the derivation of many simple and logical abbreviations that precisely describe each and every phase of the universe. And then further beyond that we realize and see how the actions of the universe drive life into the dead and empty of meaning fundamental building blocks of the language- which are all the fundamental verbal patterns from which are derived the words of the language.

That in a nutshell is the Qur’aan Cosmological Model.

Have a good look at the illustrations on the chart below: Fig.001Ratq-Fa-Fatq. Don't miss out at this point. I will from time to time refer to previous posts that I have prepared to make our journey easy as we arrive at the steps to enter The Greatest Cosmological Model of all time. Remember that this so far is still only the less than one percent of The Qur'aan Cosmological Model.

QCMfig001Ratq-Fa-Fatq.png

To be continued inshaa allaah (If God had willed).

Edited by al-amiyr

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Must be read from post #1 #8 #9 #12 #19 #22 #23 #26 #27 and #58.

We have reached the point in this expatiation of The Qur'aan Cosmological Model that we can begin to penetrate into its depths. Up to this point I have attempted to make known that the Qur'aan does contain a comprehensive explanation for the existence of the universe. As I said in a previous post:-

The Qur’aan Cosmological model is a mathematical and graphical presentation of the origin, evolution, and ultimate fate of the current universe as it is contained in just two verses of the Qur’aan. These two verses provide us with the key words that describe the general evolution of the universe.

Khalqan = Tayyan +Ratqan +Fatqan +2Tayyan +2Ratqan +2Fatqan.

A near example in English:

Creation = Turn in +Rotate + Fire out +2Turn in +2Rotate +2Fire out.

The initial letters of these key words produce the following algorithmic compression;

Kh = T +R +F +2T +2R +2F

Can you show an example of *using* this algorithm?

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Can you show an example of *using* this algorithm?

Yes! I have made a thread " The Qur'aan Lexicographical Model:". Have a look at it. I am going to use that program upon which the Qur'aan is based to take us into a higher dimension. I will be getting to that point soon. In the following posts I will begin to show how everything works.

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Greetings al-amiyr -- I can see that you intend to post lots of your research from the Koran here on UM. A huge amount of your information appears to be your own personal interpretation of the deeper nuances within the Koran. One problem is that most probably other posters will not be able to verify/prove/disprove your presentations, unless you also post cross-referenced proof-sources. You have attempted to present such cross-referencing, as for example, in the following excerpt from one of your posts:

>>>>>Be reminded that these four Qur'aan Cosmological Model (QCM) technical terms that have already been explained earlier are all found in the Arabic - English Lexicon by Edward William Lane. This Arabic - English Lexicon by Edward William Lane is the greatest, on every level, Arabic - English dictionary ever produced in the English language and virtually contains the entire Classical Arabic Language upon which the Qur'aan is based. Edward William Lane was called, in his lifetime, the master of the Arabic Language. It is a work of breathless achievement- the greatest height a scholar could attain to maximum precise detail. I present to you the publishers note for further elaboration. <<<<<

Unfortunately (to me at least), you seem to be moulding Edward William Lane’s translations (and other translators you mention) to suit your own uniquely personal interpretation of the Koran. Maybe if a neutral “third party” poster enters this thread, your “presentation” will turn into a discussion.

That said, the two verses from the Koran which you discuss in your first post -- “Qur’aan Chapter 021:030” and “Qur’aan Chapter 021:104” -- could have been sourced from the Hebrew “Old Testament” and the Greek “New Testament”, as copied below.

Psa 102:25
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens
are
the work of thy hands.

Psa 102:26
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 1:1
1 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not

fail.

Below are the two texts you quote from the Koran, presented in Three English Qur'an Translations from this website.

QUR'AN CHAPTER 21:

AL-ANBIYA (THE PROPHETS)

Verse 30

c21_30.gif

21:30 a walam yaral-ladhiyna kafaruu an-nas samaawaati wal arDa kaanataa ratqan fa fataqnaahumaa* wa ja'Alnaa minal maai kul-la shay'in Hayy* afalaa yu'minuun

Click here to play the verse

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:

Did not the disbelievers observe that the heavens and the earth were together, so We parted them, and we made every living thing from water? So will they not accept faith?

Yusuf Ali:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Pickthal:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Source

-=-=-=-

QUR'AN CHAPTER 21:

AL-ANBIYA (THE PROPHETS)

Verse 104

c21_104.gif

21:104 yawma naTwis samaa-a ka Tay-yis sijil-li lil kutub* kamaa bada'naa aw-wala khalqin nu'Iyduh* wa'Ådan 'Alaynaa* in-naa kun-naa faa'Iliyn

Click here to play the verse

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:

The day when We shall roll up the heavens as the recording angel rolls up the register of deeds; We shall make him similar to Our making him the first time; this is a promise upon Us; We certainly have to do it.

Yusuf Ali:

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.

Pickthal:

The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it.

Source

-=-=-=-

Perhaps, al-amiyr, it could be even argued that the truths you present from the Koran were originally given by God to the Hebrew prophets, and from there centuries later, paraphrased into the Koran. But that thought is another story for a different thread.

Best wishes in your efforts,

Karlis

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Yes! I have made a thread " The Qur'aan Lexicographical Model:". Have a look at it.

I did, nowhere did you use this equation to calculate anything.
I am going to use that program upon which the Qur'aan is based to take us into a higher dimension. I will be getting to that point soon. In the following posts I will begin to show how everything works.

Do we need to wear Nikes and plastic bags over our heads?
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The beginning is fact whether the bigbang model is accepted it or not observations show that our universe began. What you forget is that video was flawed, because singularity is the limit if science and empirical data, QCM IS BASED ON THAT DATA, the scientist you refer to and the theories they propose deal with metaphysical stuff, ie beyond empirical data and science! That means if you believe on those you ate believing blindly because they don't even adhere to your own standards that you impose on the Quran and other things, they have no empirical proofs at all at least the bigbang is based on current empirical data ie it meets scientific and your standards yet you dismiss it for blind faith in some theory dealing with metaphysics? Irony!

Observations show that our universe is expanding and cooling. The Big Bang Theory is simply a logical reversal of this process. The merits of theories dealing with "before" the Big Bang are unrelated to the point I've made, which was that there is no consensus of the singularity indicating a beginning. Who says I "believe" in pre-big bang theories? I certainly didn't. They're untested as of yet, as you say. But the very fact that they exist indicates doubt in the minds of many physicists that the singularity is the origin of it all.

Something united is split and separation, expansion on the other hand is specifically mentioned in other verses but such is depth of language that the verse which refer to splitting etc those words also denote expanse too, linguistically and by virtue of context but that a side expansion of the universe etc is mentioned in other verses as are other cosmological phenomena!

If the verse intended an expansion after the splitting, surely this would have been indicated in the translation. The latter does not necessarily imply the former. You misinterpreted the English, now you're avoiding the fact. Is this simply a red herring, or will you provide me with the verses you speak of above? I can guess that if you do and we come to different conclusions, you will simply maintain that I cannot access the original material in the original language, so my understanding is inherently inferior, as you are wont to do.

Your thoughts are correct. It cannot be translated. A translation is only an idea what the Qur'aan is saying. The Qur'aan makes the assertion that it contains all the Models of knowledge and that those Models explain everything in detail. But where are those Models? Knowledge on a high level is required to extract them as you will see at the end of the subject of this thread. You have seen nothing yet. Thanks otherwise for stating your thought.

I mean no offense, but I don't see the point in making specific claims and drawing very specific parallels in front of an audience who supposedly cannot understand the true meaning and language of the original, untranslated text.

Edited by Cybele
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Greetings al-amiyr -- I can see that you intend to post lots of your research from the Koran here on UM. A huge amount of your information appears to be your own personal interpretation of the deeper nuances within the Koran. One problem is that most probably other posters will not be able to verify/prove/disprove your presentations, unless you also post cross-referenced proof-sources. You have attempted to present such cross-referencing, as for example, in the following excerpt from one of your posts:

>>>>>Be reminded that these four Qur'aan Cosmological Model (QCM) technical terms that have already been explained earlier are all found in the Arabic - English Lexicon by Edward William Lane. This Arabic - English Lexicon by Edward William Lane is the greatest, on every level, Arabic - English dictionary ever produced in the English language and virtually contains the entire Classical Arabic Language upon which the Qur'aan is based. Edward William Lane was called, in his lifetime, the master of the Arabic Language. It is a work of breathless achievement- the greatest height a scholar could attain to maximum precise detail. I present to you the publishers note for further elaboration. <<<<<

Unfortunately (to me at least), you seem to be moulding Edward William Lane’s translations (and other translators you mention) to suit your own uniquely personal interpretation of the Koran. Maybe if a neutral “third party” poster enters this thread, your “presentation” will turn into a discussion.

That said, the two verses from the Koran which you discuss in your first post -- “Qur’aan Chapter 021:030” and “Qur’aan Chapter 021:104” -- could have been sourced from the Hebrew “Old Testament” and the Greek “New Testament”, as copied below.

Psa 102:25
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens
are
the work of thy hands.

Psa 102:26
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 1:1
1 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not

fail.

Below are the two texts you quote from the Koran, presented in Three English Qur'an Translations from this website.

QUR'AN CHAPTER 21:

AL-ANBIYA (THE PROPHETS)

Verse 30

c21_30.gif

21:30 a walam yaral-ladhiyna kafaruu an-nas samaawaati wal arDa kaanataa ratqan fa fataqnaahumaa* wa ja'Alnaa minal maai kul-la shay'in Hayy* afalaa yu'minuun

Click here to play the verse

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:

Did not the disbelievers observe that the heavens and the earth were together, so We parted them, and we made every living thing from water? So will they not accept faith?

Yusuf Ali:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Pickthal:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Source

-=-=-=-

QUR'AN CHAPTER 21:

AL-ANBIYA (THE PROPHETS)

Verse 104

c21_104.gif

21:104 yawma naTwis samaa-a ka Tay-yis sijil-li lil kutub* kamaa bada'naa aw-wala khalqin nu'Iyduh* wa'Ådan 'Alaynaa* in-naa kun-naa faa'Iliyn

Click here to play the verse

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:

The day when We shall roll up the heavens as the recording angel rolls up the register of deeds; We shall make him similar to Our making him the first time; this is a promise upon Us; We certainly have to do it.

Yusuf Ali:

The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.

Pickthal:

The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it.

Source

-=-=-=-

Perhaps, al-amiyr, it could be even argued that the truths you present from the Koran were originally given by God to the Hebrew prophets, and from there centuries later, paraphrased into the Koran. But that thought is another story for a different thread.

Best wishes in your efforts,

Karlis

Dear Karlis

I like your post very much. The Qur'aan states that nothing that has been said to the Prophet Muhammad(S+) is new. The Qur'aan is the Book that restores the deeper meaning that lie deep in the other Divine Books. I myself lecture this depth found in the Torah ,as an example. I will discuss at a later time all your other valuable points.

Best wishes to you as well.

al-amiyr

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I am finding this all very interesting. I can see the prallels in the text that can be linked to modern cosmology, but I must admit I am not quiped to handle the volume of information and of course like our resident cynics ( not skeptics), i know that rhetoric and parallels can be spun in many ways . I am however very equipped to understand spiritual symbolism and the extreem contextul information that comes from spirit to man. I also view the founders of all great religions as holy people, so I do not doubt their spirit.

My question. Like any scientific theory, do these intirpretations offer predictions that as of yet have not been tested, that can be or possibly will be. It's one thing to take what is already known and inturpret something to fit what we know to be true, it's quite another to predict things that we do not know, then we test for them and find out that prediction is true.

What predictions does this model make that we have not discovered yet? There in is what lies the usefulness of any theory.

Edited by Seeker79
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~~~ ...

... My question. ... do these intirpretations offer predictions that as of yet have not been tested, that can be or possibly will be.

...

What predictions does this model make that we have not discovered yet? There in is what lies the usefulness of any theory.

To stay with the basic point that was introduced in the OP:

First, there is a revelation that the universe was created and had a beginning. Second, the universe will eventually come to a stage where it "ends", and then is "made again ... a new universe is created".

I guess theories based on scientific input already exist to support the *possibility* of the above claims, without the need of a creator.

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To stay with the basic point that was introduced in the OP:

First, there is a revelation that the universe was created and had a beginning. Second, the universe will eventually come to a stage where it "ends", and then is "made again ... a new universe is created".

I guess theories based on scientific input already exist to support the *possibility* of the above claims, without the need of a creator.

Those are not predictions that can be tested. Unless we wait until the end of time. If we are going to stick with science then we cannot take the puzzle piece that almost fits and pound it into place with our fist and say there is our picture. I always had that problem as a kid. :)

There is no evidence for the big crunch at the moment. All indications are that the expansion will continue and is speeding up. The result will depend upon the nature of dark energy.

Edited by Seeker79

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Must be read from post #1 #8 #9 #12 #19 #22 #23 #26 #27 #58 and #61

If you have not read the previous posts then you would not fully understand what is being said here.

Here is the nearest to perfection of of the first Qur'aan Cosmological Model verse (021:030). Every translation of this verse done so far are incorrect. I have studied this verse over a period of about thirty years and have studied the plus minus 70 Qur'aan translations done so far which ranges over a period of over two hundred years. I have discussed this verse with more than ten thousand persons during that period. I know all the rules of the Arabic language concerning it. And here is the translation.

- - -

"Have those who have disbelieved now not seen:-

that the samaawaat and the ‘arD

(1)- were both Ratqan

(2)- and so We Fataq them both again.

And We made from al-maa' every living thing.

Will they now not believe?"

- - -

Let us now go forth to draw the first Space-Time diagram based upon the data extrapolated from the first Qur'aan Cosmological Model verse.

Qur'aan 021:030

that the samaawaat and the ‘arD

(1)- were both Ratqan

(2)- and so We Fataq them both again.

As we have already seen that when the Qur'aan speaks about the samaawaat, then it refers to the whole realm of extraterrestrial space and everything it contains.So the data that we derive from the Qur'aan is that the Sun, the Moon, the Stars, the Galaxies, the Galactic Clusters,etc. and the Earth ('ard) were once a united mass that had collapsed from a previously separated state.

According to the data contained in the second Qur'aan Cosmological Model verse, which we shall analyze in a later post, this previously collapsed state was the result of a previously expanded universe that was brought down by ALLAAH in a spiraling formation that caused it to possess angular momentum. When it reached the state of maximum singular combination, with internal and external void, ALLAAH split the powerful rotating single entity apart and then blew into it the breath of life that cause it to undergo the great expansion that we have observed today.

According to the Qur'aan the universe did not originate from a big bang singularity. It began when the small and large 'burnt out' particles of the previously expanded and close to flat universe were brought into willing submission to be re-energized and rejuvenated to become a new creation.

The Qur'aan calls this a single Khalq or Creation - a collapse followed by an expansion and not an expansion followed by a collapse. See the delineation below.

The Qur'aan also states that the universe is in the democratic liberal state of run away expansion and shall go on ticking until it has reached maximum permitted expansion when it shall be halted by ALLAAH and when shall be The Final Hour which none shall be able to calculate or rather know other than him and him only.

The first Space-Time diagram based upon the data extrapolated from the first Qur'aan Cosmological Model verse.

QCMfig002.png

To be continued inshaa allaah (if God had willed).

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I am finding this all very interesting. I can see the prallels in the text that can be linked to modern cosmology, but I must admit I am not quiped to handle the volume of information and of course like our resident cynics ( not skeptics), i know that rhetoric and parallels can be spun in many ways . I am however very equipped to understand spiritual symbolism and the extreem contextul information that comes from spirit to man. I also view the founders of all great religions as holy people, so I do not doubt their spirit.

My question. Like any scientific theory, do these intirpretations offer predictions that as of yet have not been tested, that can be or possibly will be. It's one thing to take what is already known and inturpret something to fit what we know to be true, it's quite another to predict things that we do not know, then we test for them and find out that prediction is true.

What predictions does this model make that we have not discovered yet? There in is what lies the usefulness of any theory.

100% Seeker79! Just continue reading. Everything will become very clear as we go further. I just need to get to a certain point and then all the discussions can begin. But all your observations and comments are much appreciated. We always learn new things as long as we keep our minds open.

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Instead of throwing around this "equation", can you show a meaningful use for it?

For instance E=mc2 is a meaningful equation, it allows the conversion of mass to energy. Kh=T+R+F+2T+2R+2F looks like something you've strung together without any understanding of algebra.

Edited by Rlyeh

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I just find it rather interesting that the purported creator of the universe could not dictate the processes of the universe's creation in explicit detail, but instead mislead Muhammad in saying that the earth had been compacted with the stars and heavens when absolutely nothing existed... not even stars, nor the earth... nothing. It just was just a very compacted space. In fact, Allah should be ashamed of himself for not explaining it properly, as it is very misleading.

Secondly, asunder does not mean to "explode"; it means to "break apart", not necessarily indicating an explosion. Though, like all verses, I suppose you can dissect and analyze any part that you wish, and attach any meaning that you wish to the definitions.

Why does the creator need to reveal in the QURAN a book of guidance to mankind, a design paper, thesis, equations etc on how he created existence. You say it like you have the capacity of god to understand it and comprehend it. Lol! What he reveals is ample, he reveals in passing reference, but relates to us the mist fundamental aspects. For example that the universe began, it's finite and had a finite beginning. Why? Because everyone riot thought the universe had always been there, infinite etc. So he relates to this to clear our misconception about an infinite universe, he relays to us the state of universe before it was created, ie nothing, so we can understand this existence emerged from nothing, yet everything in our lives tells us that you get nothing from nothing, so gods illustrating he is the cause that created from nothing! He relays to us the singularity,so we know and understand our existences beginning, as no one prior to the Quran or modern scientific discoveries know this information, he relays to us that this universe is expanding etc, you getting the picture now. Relating and showing us these phenomena he has no need to be specific as you claim, because what he relays is fundamental and correct, the most important information, the mechanism and mechanics of it does not need to be shown because he has left that self discovery for us, as it will confirm his statements anyway, and knowing the mechanisms does not negate the agent behind them!

Lmao! Alien you always entertain me, as seine who believes alone in the gospel of science and it's clergy, you cannot fathom the notion that a singularity is the sum of all matter ie universe, which includes everything in it from stars to planets etc (which formed over eons after the big bang) were united bonded, all time, space, matter were this singularity, your problem is you seem to visualise this singularity existing in some vast space, no mate the vast space we call universe was this singularity.

Cleft asunder or breaking apart the singularity does refer to the big bang, however of visualise the big bang as massive explosion then you truly are naive and don't know science well at all, even though it's your gospel!

Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was (and continues to be) an expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe

Another misconception is that we tend to image the singularity as a little fireball appearing somewhere in space. According to the many experts however, space didn't exist prior to the Big Bang.

The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we.

So what's cause, where did the singularity appear from?

Edited by Lion6969

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Lmao! Alien you always entertain me, as seine who believes alone in the gospel of science and it's clergy, you cannot fathom the notion that a singularity is the sum of all matter ie universe, which includes everything in it from stars to planets etc (which formed over eons after the big bang) were united bonded, all time, space, matter were this singularity, your problem is you seem to visualise this singularity existing in some vast space, no mate the vast space we call universe was this singularity.

I am glad that you find humour in my sentiments.

Also, nice straw-man. I never said anything about believing that this singularity existed in any vast space.

Cleft asunder or breaking apart the singularity does refer to the big bang, however of visualise the big bang as massive explosion then you truly are naive and don't know science well at all, even though it's your gospel!

I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply anything of the sort; I merely referred to your definition of "asunder", and how it simply means to "break apart". To break apart does not necessarily indicate expansion, either.

Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was (and continues to be) an expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe

But of course. I never suggested anything to the contrary.

Another misconception is that we tend to image the singularity as a little fireball appearing somewhere in space. According to the many experts however, space didn't exist prior to the Big Bang.

The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we.

So what's cause, where did the singularity appear from?

You seem to enjoy taking attention away from the actual issue, don't you? Red-herrings everywhere. My initial assertion is that the creator of the universe mislead Muhammad in saying that the Earth and the heavens (stars, etc.) were all collected into one mass. One would assume that an intelligent creator of the universe would be able to differentiate between a planet and the matter which composes the planet.

But to answer your question pertaining to the origin of the singularity, nobody really knows the cause of the singularity, and nor where it appeared from. Scientists are working tirelessly in an attempt to find the answers to these questions, however. We may never find the answer.

Edited by Alienated Being

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