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RavenHawk

Wealth redistribution = Investment?

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I was on travel again so I didn’t have reliable access to the internet over the weekend. So I’m behind on several replies. More than likely I won’t get to them but I’m not worrying. What I wanted to say will eventually appear in future threads. The way things go, several threads on the same subject usually pop up from time to time. Anyway, I believe it was Saturday I was browsing the forum and I came across a thread (I wasn’t really paying attention to subject titles) where one poster was trying to equate Wealth Redistribution to “investing” in people. That pushed a button in me. For this is a concept that is so fundamentally counter to what the Founding Fathers envisioned for this country. I’m guessing that it pushed a button in others as well. I don’t see it so it was probably poofed. With inadequate procedures for notifying the forum community of the reasons for a post getting poofed, what I wanted to say can’t be TOS material. I think that when the moderators poof a thread, that they move it to a separate *violation* forum, lock it and explain what the violation was. That way, the paper trail is visible to everyone. But I digress.

This one poster was saying how Obamacare or SS was investing in the people just as if one would invest in roads, etc. How wrong that is and I’m sure that elicited a lot of negative responses. *Investment* implies that there will be a return on that investment. There is no valuable return with most government Entitlements and Welfare. Obviously, you invest in a road and commerce can use it and people can travel from one place to another. If it degrades, you invest to repair it and it returns to profitability.

Obamacare is intended to cover that 30 million that doesn’t have health insurance. That 30 million can be broken down into three groups with roughly 10 million in each. Those that don’t want it, those that don’t need it, or those that can’t get it. Those that don’t want it are mostly the young, just entering the workforce. They probably can’t afford it but don’t need it because they are young. It would be a waste of “investment”. In time when they begin to command more income, then they normally will get it. Those that don’t need it are the wealthy that maintain their own health out-of-pocket. The problem comes in that last group. They can’t get health insurance because their condition constitutes a serious prior condition. So it’s this 3% investment that will cause business to lay off able body workers? Seriously, what kind of return is expected from this 3%? These are humans that are on the whole beyond their productiveness. This nations’ wealth should never be dispersed for that. It is unwise. That is the devil’s path to ruin. These people need care. This shouldn’t be an issue of throwing out this nation’s wealth or this nation’s needy. This is where faith based charities could be harnessed to provide. Concentrate this nation’s wealth where it needs to go, i.e. paying down debt, paying for public works and defense, and reinvesting back into the economy.

Now, unfortunately, SS is the same way. We all consider it our Entitlement because we paid into. The truth is, is that someone drawing SS is getting 3 times more than they put in. They are just as much a freeloader as anyone off of welfare. How much one gets from SS is based off of your last two years of salary. So if you work all your life at $30,000 (your FICA reflects that), then get promoted to a $100,000 salary in your last two years of work, guess what? Your SS will be based off of $100,000. That’s why some business will lay off older workers so that they don’t have to pay the matching FICA. Now that we are living longer, this seems to be unfair to the nation. Would it be better to be paid a higher wage (with no FICA being taken out) in the first place and then invest that in stocks and bonds, etc?

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*wish I had 'poofing' powers*

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Nothing was poofed.

Ever think they are just using this as an excuse to lay someone off. People that want to do something that hurts others love to use any excuse handy. Wouldn't want to make themselves look bad.

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For this is a concept that is so fundamentally counter to what the Founding Fathers envisioned for this country.

and? Times change.

There is no valuable return with most government Entitlements and Welfare.

of course there is, a valuable member of society.

They probably can't afford it but don't need it because they are young.

we would call them and you - naive. In fact, many are now able to stay on their parents plan for a time.

Seriously, what kind of return is expected from this 3%?

functioning members of society.

The truth is, is that someone drawing SS is getting 3 times more than they put in.

the money is invested.

How much one gets from SS is based off of your last two years of salary.

No it's based on your highest 35 years. And you have to work for 10

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and? Times change.

So is that the excuse to throw away the Constitution? This should be the reason to cling even closer to the Constitution.

of course there is, a valuable member of society.

Oh, there are a few that get knocked off their feet and require a ”Helping Hand” to become productive again but most people get entrapped in the system wanting only a ”Handout”. It’s like a drug, once you are part of the system, all you care about is your next fix. Most people that get into this situation never become productive again. That is what Entitlements and Welfare do.

we would call them and you - naive. In fact, many are now able to stay on their parents plan for a time.

Who’s naïve? Children are indoctrinated into the welfare state by welching off their parents. But as I was saying, when one first gets into the workforce, you feel as if nothing can hurt you so that health insurance isn’t really a concern. That may not be wise but that is the way it is. Now, the young cannot learn what it is like during tough times. They won’t be able to cope. They just stay attached to mommy and daddy all their life.

functioning members of society.

That’s the point, this 3% do not become functioning members of society. They spend most of their time dealing (or not dealing) with their illness. So now, the 97% of the rest of the population has to suffer with them. Yes, it is sad that they got a bad break. Let’s take care of them, but we can do it without draining the nation’s wealth. Let’s be smart about it. Wealth redistribution is not smart. Oh, there are exceptions but the majority spends most of their time on themselves, which is as it should be.

the money is invested.

The money is thrown away. If you want to invest then invest in faith-based charities so that they can help provide better care for more than this 3%. Invest in the community, never the individual. Local authority is far better capable to help their own than the federal.

No it's based on your highest 35 years. And you have to work for 10

It may be amortized over your best 35 years but your last two years are weighted as your best two. If you talk to retired people that is what they will tell you. But the bottom line is that between the amount (or as you call it – investment) and that people are living longer, SS is running out. And I don’t think pushing retirement to 70 is going to help. You’ll just end up putting more unemployed on the rolls so they would rather take early retirement and then get less in SS.

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Here are where Obama's "investments" come from. The huge savings begin ...

( from http://www.conservativehq.com/article/10833-ceos-start-layoffs-saying-we-told-you-would-happen )

Welch Allyn — a manufacturer of medical diagnostic equipment in central New York — which says it will cut 275 employees, about 10 percent of its workforce, over the next three years.

Dana Holding Corp. — a global auto parts manufacturing company — which warned of layoffs due to "$24 million over the next six years in additional U.S. healthcare expenses.’’

Stryker — a medical device manufacturer — which plans to close its facility in Orchard Park, N.Y., eliminating 96 jobs in December. They also say they’ll slash 5 percent of their global workforce, about 1,170 positions.

Boston Scientific — a medical device manufacturer — said it plans to cut between 1,200 and 1,400 jobs, while shifting investments and workers overseas to China.

Medtronic — a medical device maker — which cut 500 positions over the summer, with 500 more set to be eliminated by the end of 2013.

Other companies promising job cuts include: Smith & Nephew — 770 layoffs; Abbott Labs — 700 layoffs; Covidien — 595 layoffs; Kinetic Concepts — 427 layoffs; St. Jude Medical — 300 layoffs; and Hill Rom — 200 layoffs.

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Now, unfortunately, SS is the same way. We all consider it our Entitlement because we paid into. The truth is, is that someone drawing SS is getting 3 times more than they put in. They are just as much a freeloader as anyone off of welfare. How much one gets from SS is based off of your last two years of salary. So if you work all your life at $30,000 (your FICA reflects that), then get promoted to a $100,000 salary in your last two years of work, guess what? Your SS will be based off of $100,000. That's why some business will lay off older workers so that they don't have to pay the matching FICA. Now that we are living longer, this seems to be unfair to the nation. Would it be better to be paid a higher wage (with no FICA being taken out) in the first place and then invest that in stocks and bonds, etc?

Social Security is abused horribly. I know plenty of 'conservative' farmers that go get a job in town about 5 years before they want to retire. Viola, instant Social Security payout for the rest of their lives. For only paying in a few years. Then they have the gall to complain about freeloaders.

I've said for quite some time that I would OPT out of Social Security if they stopped taking my money. But, since they won't, I'll definately want to collect on it. I've paid in for over 25 years now, they owe me something out of that.

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You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice. Being nice rarely pays off. The op topic sounds nice to some but heed my words, being nice doesn't pay off. Examples...

A guy that was working for a few years ago got a speeding ticket, asked me to loan him money. I did. He quit soon after. I never seen the money again. He hasn't worked much since but is a Call of Duty phenom.

Purpose of investment: Making sure my guy didn't lose his license so he could continue to drive to work plus I'm a sucker for helping out.

Personal gain: -$120

Societal gain: Nothing.

Another guy who worked for me a few years ago; I went on vacation for a week and let him use my truck as he only had a car and figured my truck would be needed while I was away and was to be used only for work. On the way home from the airport, at night, he called to tell me the truck had a flat tire. He was in a neighborhood he shouldn't have been in. I met up and sure enough I had a flat. Also there was a lawnmower in my truck. Turns out he was doing side work at the expense of my truck and against the rules I had stated. We don't do landscaping. The spare tire underneath was rusted on so tight I couldn't get the nuts and bolts loose. Had to get it towed home. Had to get 2 new tires as is usually the case when they're mid-life and one needs replaced.

Purpose of investment: Keeping my much needed truck on the job and making his life easier for a week by doing so. Saved him mileage and gas money on his own vehicle.

Personal gain: Negative several hundred dollars plus the aggravation of sudden shop time and loss of time for business.

Societal gain: Zilch. I continued to let him work with us until it turned out he was stealing from customers and my company. He even left other employees in the negative do to unpaid monies borrowed. He's now a drug addict who's burned all known bridges.

I've got plenty more similar stories I'd like to tell but just realized how long of a post that may become. Point is that these were people I knew who screwed me over and both instances were a type of investment in which I can blame no one but myself . What's to make me think that one, the government can handle my money properly and two, complete strangers getting something for nothing are going to be a benefit to anyone let alone society and three, redistributing my money by force is going to be the least bit reassuring?

In both stories above I'd have been better off not loaning my truck out and telling the other guy sorry but I can't help. I should've minded my own business and left well enough alone. That's all I ask of the government. Do your job responsibly according to the constitution and leave well enough alone. Organizational charities are the best place to 'invest' your money if you really want to help people. They offer a specific service and leave no one under the impression they are entitled to something.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-
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You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice. Being nice rarely pays off. The op topic sounds nice to some but heed my words, being nice doesn't pay off. Examples...

I'm sorry for you and that your faith in people, and that the generosity and kindness you show to other, was taken advantage of. But even though I have some similar stories of that kind I have so many more that shows and proves that kindness and being helpful to others -people you know as well as strangers- do come back to you in a positive way. For instance, you get a reputation of being a a helpful caring individual amongst those who know you -using wit and common sense guides you to not being a sucker that people prey upon- but secondly it can, and will come back to you in ways you cant really foresee.

I have plenty of stories were I have helped strangers with quite trivial things, pulling them out of a ditch, giving a ride, being generous in a business deal, intervening in a unfair fight, helping if they were injured, etc etc, and without knowing if I ever see them again. Not doing this just so I could feel good about myself or having a ulterior motive that it would pay me back in some way, but just because it is the right thing to do. May of these people I did happen to come across though, several years later and some of them were able to help me in return in some manner, but others just saying they remember me and thanked me again for helping them out back then.

Helping people is giving a ripple effect that not only help yourself but it gives other people the sense that caring is the right way and they in turn will be more willing to help people they come across.

If you dont see, and understand this, I feel kind of sorry for you. Not in a condescending kind of way, but just sorry for you, and that you never experienced it.

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I'm sorry for you and that your faith in people, and that the generosity and kindness you show to other, was taken advantage of. But even though I have some similar stories of that kind I have so many more that shows and proves that kindness and being helpful to others -people you know as well as strangers- do come back to you in a positive way. For instance, you get a reputation of being a a helpful caring individual amongst those who know you -using wit and common sense guides you to not being a sucker that people prey upon- but secondly it can, and will come back to you in ways you cant really foresee.

I have plenty of stories were I have helped strangers with quite trivial things, pulling them out of a ditch, giving a ride, being generous in a business deal, intervening in a unfair fight, helping if they were injured, etc etc, and without knowing if I ever see them again. Not doing this just so I could feel good about myself or having a ulterior motive that it would pay me back in some way, but just because it is the right thing to do. May of these people I did happen to come across though, several years later and some of them were able to help me in return in some manner, but others just saying they remember me and thanked me again for helping them out back then.

Helping people is giving a ripple effect that not only help yourself but it gives other people the sense that caring is the right way and they in turn will be more willing to help people they come across.

If you dont see, and understand this, I feel kind of sorry for you. Not in a condescending kind of way, but just sorry for you, and that you never experienced it.

Yea I'm not that naive. I've helped and been helped. In the cases of loaning money, well that's rarely paid off and the reputation it garners is akin to going to a strip club and becoming known as the guy who tips in $5's. You get a lot of fake smiles and pseudo appreciation but its really just being marked as a sucker. Thanks for looking out but maybe my tales were a little too woe-is-me in tone. I'm always up for helping those I know but at the same time I get to see people's true colors and it always makes me a better judge of character in future dealings. I just do the right thing but ain't afraid to say no either. If the show "My Name is Earl" is anything to go by than karma must exist because really, I do pretty good and have general good luck (except with gambling though, I must've p***ed of the gambling gods at some point in time). Of course, its not a bad thing always being the go-to guy. It can be a pain but it comes with more satisfaction than being the guy who always needs to go to someone else for help.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-

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So is that the excuse to throw away the Constitution?

where did I say that? the constitution allows laws to be passed.

Most people that get into this situation never become productive again.

it must be a weird twisted place that you hang out.

you feel as if nothing can hurt you so that health insurance isn't really a concern.

You may feel this way because of your upbringing. But don't claim to know what all young people feel.

Let's take care of them, but we can do it without draining the nation's wealth. Let's be smart about it.

which you clearly state is kicking them to the curb and not providing for them at all. You've been very plain.

The money is thrown away. If you want to invest then invest in faith-based charities so that they can help provide better care for more than this 3%. Invest in the community, never the individual. Local authority is far better capable to help their own than the federal.

the money is not "thrown away". Where do you get this crap. It's invested in the US and backed by the US. Therefore is invested in communities. Why in the WORLD would I want to invest in a "faith-based charity"? That's even more ludicrous.

It may be amortized over your best 35 years but your last two years are weighted as your best two. If you talk to retired people that is what they will tell you. But the bottom line is that between the amount (or as you call it – investment) and that people are living longer, SS is running out.

No people are not living longer. Rich people are. The poor get the shaft. Because of health care. SS is not runnning out. Minor adjustments need to be taken. It pays full benefits for many years and 75% benefits after that for many years. Can you claim ANY investment that can do that far in advance.

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You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice.

interesting but personal anecdotes are not the way to run a country. Millions - a majority - voted on the matter.

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interesting but personal anecdotes are not the way to run a country. Millions - a majority - voted on the matter.

Then multiply my scenario by millions. Either way the ROI is hardly worth it. A helping hand is good and handouts are bad.

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Then multiply my scenario by millions. Either way the ROI is hardly worth it. A helping hand is good and handouts are bad.

we don't do governmental decisions on society based on ROI. It's purile.

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we don't do governmental decisions on society based on ROI. It's purile.

That's your whole damn argument. Argue the terminology but supposed productive members of society are the return. Otherwise, you agree with me.

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We human beings are profoundly odd creatures. We are by our very nature, social animals. When we were naked and running across the plains, we still sought to group together...not only for protection but for socialization. We also have the capacity to be harsh, cruel and selfish. We are such an odd mixture that if you boil us all down to our fundamental ingredients...we are all walking paradoxes.

Most humans do not like to see another human in pain or suffering. We are empathetic that way. But many times the recipients of our concern are on the flip side of that paradox...sometimes people are psychopaths and sociopaths and just do not care and will prey on the "good will" of others.

Social Security was almost a great idea. However, when it was created, the average lifespan was different. If I am not mistaken (and I might be) the amount of time someone was projected to collect was about 8 to 10 years. There was a lot of empathy and sympathy rolled into that package. Back in the day, most husbands worked and the wives took care of the children and the home. If a husband were to die, his social security went to the wife...a very compassionate thing to do and I don't begrudge softening someone's loss. The problem though, is if the husband died in his say...late 40's or early 50's, the wife would draw his social security far longer than the projected 8-10 years the system was modeled on. A great and wonderful thing that we did to help people. But something has happened to "us"...as individuals...

The problems though are obvious. There is no "magic spell" to fix this system. I would never suggest that we completely lose our humanity and allow other humans to suffer. I might be a freedom and liberty loving Libertarian who wants the ability to live life to it's fullest...but I am not a heartless and callous prick. I want many things changed so that people are free to do their best, but I do not agree with throwing the weak and infirm under the bus so I can personally have a bigger house or an extra car...yeah....I am a paradox too. I believe in a lot of odd things I guess, maybe it's from years of reading philosophy and multiple religions. I DO believe that the selfish and aggressive parts of our nature will be our undoing. The transformation from a civilized, humane society to a society of the "self" is what it is and I have learned to accept that we will probably not evolve in the right direction anymore.

That's fine. Species have come and gone for millions of years. We probably won't last an incredibly long time here. There are very few species that prey on their own kind and most that do...do so for survival...we do it for selfishness and greed...has nothing to do with just food, shelter and clothing...the necessities of life.

The "7 deadly sins" are called "deadly" for a reason. Greed, gluttony, envy, lust, wrath (anger), vain pride and sloth. They dwell within all of us and we as a society and individuals either try to overcome them...or we choose to embrace them....it's pretty much that simple.

Good day.

Edited by Jeremiah65

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and? Times change.

of course there is, a valuable member of society.

we would call them and you - naive. In fact, many are now able to stay on their parents plan for a time.

functioning members of society.

the money is invested.

No it's based on your highest 35 years. And you have to work for 10

Is this what you call a valuable member of society? Someone living off the backs of others? No, no, no, the valuable member of society is the person out there working and being productive... if the recipient is truly disabled, then that's a different matter however, that should be thoroughly verified before giving dollar one to the recipient. Just like everything else, there's got to be a handful of lazy frauds that spoil it for those that are really in need.

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You know every "investment' I've made towards another individual has done nothing but benefit the individual and teach me that being generous doesn't pay yet I never learn because I'm nice. Being nice rarely pays off. The op topic sounds nice to some but heed my words, being nice doesn't pay off. Examples...

A guy that was working for a few years ago got a speeding ticket, asked me to loan him money. I did. He quit soon after. I never seen the money again. He hasn't worked much since but is a Call of Duty phenom.

Purpose of investment: Making sure my guy didn't lose his license so he could continue to drive to work plus I'm a sucker for helping out.

Personal gain: -$120

Societal gain: Nothing.

Another guy who worked for me a few years ago; I went on vacation for a week and let him use my truck as he only had a car and figured my truck would be needed while I was away and was to be used only for work. On the way home from the airport, at night, he called to tell me the truck had a flat tire. He was in a neighborhood he shouldn't have been in. I met up and sure enough I had a flat. Also there was a lawnmower in my truck. Turns out he was doing side work at the expense of my truck and against the rules I had stated. We don't do landscaping. The spare tire underneath was rusted on so tight I couldn't get the nuts and bolts loose. Had to get it towed home. Had to get 2 new tires as is usually the case when they're mid-life and one needs replaced.

Purpose of investment: Keeping my much needed truck on the job and making his life easier for a week by doing so. Saved him mileage and gas money on his own vehicle.

Personal gain: Negative several hundred dollars plus the aggravation of sudden shop time and loss of time for business.

Societal gain: Zilch. I continued to let him work with us until it turned out he was stealing from customers and my company. He even left other employees in the negative do to unpaid monies borrowed. He's now a drug addict who's burned all known bridges.

I've got plenty more similar stories I'd like to tell but just realized how long of a post that may become. Point is that these were people I knew who screwed me over and both instances were a type of investment in which I can blame no one but myself . What's to make me think that one, the government can handle my money properly and two, complete strangers getting something for nothing are going to be a benefit to anyone let alone society and three, redistributing my money by force is going to be the least bit reassuring?

In both stories above I'd have been better off not loaning my truck out and telling the other guy sorry but I can't help. I should've minded my own business and left well enough alone. That's all I ask of the government. Do your job responsibly according to the constitution and leave well enough alone. Organizational charities are the best place to 'invest' your money if you really want to help people. They offer a specific service and leave no one under the impression they are entitled to something.

The thing about people that galls me the most is when they find themselves in a jam and then suddenly turn to me and say, "What should I do?" I've had that happen on several occasions and I just think to myself, "Why are you asking me to solve your problems?" People that push their problems onto to other people to get them solved are about as low as they come...

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The thing about people that galls me the most is when they find themselves in a jam and then suddenly turn to me and say, "What should I do?" I've had that happen on several occasions and I just think to myself, "Why are you asking me to solve your problems?" People that push their problems onto to other people to get them solved are about as low as they come...

Mostly I'd say at first that they're helpless rather than low. But when my generosity isn't recognized with one on one situations like I mentioned above that's when I exchange the word helpless with low. Hell, if they even brought it up without me eluding to it and said they haven't forgotten I'd be more forgiving. It's cost me quite a few bucks to learn who will sell their friendships for money. In every single instance in which I have ever loaned money to someone it's been a complete struggle to get it back if ever at all. I guess the reason is that the real stand-up people in my life never ask for anything. They're like me. They have their shlt together. Nice as I usually am I never really had any problems just cutting someone out of my life. It's easy.

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Is this what you call a valuable member of society? Someone living off the backs of others? No, no, no, the valuable member of society is the person out there working and being productive... if the recipient is truly disabled, then that's a different matter however, that should be thoroughly verified before giving dollar one to the recipient. Just like everything else, there's got to be a handful of lazy frauds that spoil it for those that are really in need.

so if they don't have a job we should just let them die? that's what you're proposing in black and white. Have you ever been to a welfare office? Seen the requirements? Seen the reasons why people get welfare?

I thought not.

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The thing about people that galls me the most is when they find themselves in a jam and then suddenly turn to me and say, "What should I do?"

It may "gall" you, but in society A LOT of people just want to be told what to do. It has nothing to do with economics.

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but in society A LOT of people just want to be told what to do. It has nothing to do with economics.

Hello!!!??? You just summed up nearly everything wrong with today's America in two sentences.

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so if they don't have a job we should just let them die? that's what you're proposing in black and white. Have you ever been to a welfare office? Seen the requirements? Seen the reasons why people get welfare?

I thought not.

You thought right, because I've worked ever since I've been on my own which was about age 17 but I'll tell you what, I used to be a program coordinator for TEFAP (Texas Emergency Food Assistance Program) which is the program that gives out USDA food (government cheese) and I know all about guidelines and all the ways to circumvent these rules and policies too because they've all tried them on me.

The only part I really enjoyed about this job was when I used to drive a van and hand deliver food for the elderly which I did with a smile on my face because these were truly people that relied on this to make it during the week, month, etc... the only thing I hated about this job was being told that there was no need to deliver food to a person any more because they passed away. After a while, they became like family and always happy to see me.

Seen the reasons why people get welfare? Yeah, some may be legitimate but I know there's a big portion that are collecting just so as not to have to work or are working but being paid under the table. For a mild example, I just heard a girl talking on the phone near my work and to give you a wake up call, I'll share that with you, it went something like this:

"Yeah, you going shopping tonight?" "How many?" "Damn, you're greedy, girl!" "Well, you let me have that card next since you still have so much left..."

I've been in supermarkets and seen people pass their EBT card around like a ball to a group of people all of whom looked very capable of putting in a hard days work.

When did I say let them die? People who are able to work, walk and function should be able to work. You want to villify and distort my words, go right ahead. What I wrote was in black and white and I'm sure any one with common sense won't have any trouble with an interpretation.

I have a friend with severe gout who went back to work as he had been collecting disability and regardless of intense joint pain, it was by his choice, he said something that most people on assistance probably will never realize, he said, "You know, man, it feels good to have your own money that you earned and worked for..." There should be an incentive plan for people who get off the assistance programs and become a productive member of society.

Edited by Mantis914
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It may "gall" you, but in society A LOT of people just want to be told what to do. It has nothing to do with economics.

You just summed up a dictatorship. People are free to make their own choices (right or wrong) not leave the responsibility of making a difficult decision to someone else...

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Current system doesn't work at all. Welfare/Tanf is prone to abuse, any government program that allows you have more kids to get more money is retarded. The system has like a ratio of 90/10 scumbag to decent human being(Who would work to become self-sufficient) ratio. When I was a kid the system pretty much said hey have more kids to get more money(not sure about it now) which is just a great message. The people who need the help can't get it and the people who abuse it do. I've even seen parents put credit cards and bills in there kids name. It's a crappy system that doesn't work and only screws future generations. It needs to be reworked.

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