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Hasina

Animals are Moral, Scientists Argue

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did you know that the baboon beats its females to keep them loyal and from straying? the black widow female eats the male after copulation? A lion when taking over a pride will kill all the cubs and then have its own with all the females of the group. rats will eat there young when hungry. theres also a fish that can enter the uthera when you pee in a river and then inserts spikes into you to stay there. interesting but not moral, animals can be affectionate but cant aspire to be greater than they are.

Dolphins have helped guide whales from being beached. Dolphins have saved humans from sharks. Dogs have saved humans in many different ways and other animals even including cats. There is a video of a cheetah that kills a female baboon, it then realises the female baboon had a baby clinging to it. The cheetah takes the baby up a tree and cuddles it to try and keep it warm until it it dies. (it does not kill it) There is another video of a hippo trying to save an impala from a crocadile. The hippo fails, but tries to hold the impalas head up. When it realises there is no hope left, it leaves the impala. Now what is unique in this case is that hippos will normally eat other animals, they certiantly would not waste, yet this hippo leaves the body? why?!

Yes you can find the harshness in nature, sadly nature is harsh and these animals still have to survive. But to say they have no morals for the reasons you suggest is down right ingorant. They can be more loyal and love far more than some humans. In fact it is even more disgusting when humans do horrible things because they don't need to for survival and should know better. So who are we to judge?! You speak like you are above animals, talking about them as though they are below you. Funny a dog would never think you are below it. Says a lot.

My evidence:

[media=]

Edited by Coffey
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did you know that the baboon beats its females to keep them loyal and from straying? the black widow female eats the male after copulation? A lion when taking over a pride will kill all the cubs and then have its own with all the females of the group. rats will eat there young when hungry. theres also a fish that can enter the uthera when you pee in a river and then inserts spikes into you to stay there. interesting but not moral, animals can be affectionate but cant aspire to be greater than they are.

I think one needs to distinguish between behaviors that we humans, in our cultures, deem ethically acceptable, verus moral systems. Just because we don't find animal behavior to always be "moral" to our sensibilities does not mean they don't have any sort of basic moral systems and social rules to survive in a group. They may just be different from our own.

Take your example with lions. My understanding is that this is generally done when a male conquers the pride of a rival. He kills the cubs of his former (now exiled or dead) rival to ensure his genetic dominance. This may not necessarily harm the ability of the new pride to work together if the new male is effective in making his dominance known.

With the baboons, it's the same idea. If beating females into submission ensures better social cohesion and therefore survival, it may be selected for. It's sometimes easy to forget that this type of behavior was considered ethical in some human societies generations ago (and still is in some parts of the world).

Edited by Cybele

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God knows why it took them so long to realise this.

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Dolphins have helped guide whales from being beached. Dolphins have saved humans from sharks. Dogs have saved humans in many different ways and other animals even including cats. There is a video of a cheetah that kills a female baboon, it then realises the female baboon had a baby clinging to it. The cheetah takes the baby up a tree and cuddles it to try and keep it warm until it it dies. (it does not kill it) There is another video of a hippo trying to save an impala from a crocadile. The hippo fails, but tries to hold the impalas head up. When it realises there is no hope left, it leaves the impala. Now what is unique in this case is that hippos will normally eat other animals, they certiantly would not waste, yet this hippo leaves the body? why?!

Yes you can find the harshness in nature, sadly nature is harsh and these animals still have to survive. But to say they have no morals for the reasons you suggest is down right ingorant. They can be more loyal and love far more than some humans. In fact it is even more disgusting when humans do horrible things because they don't need to for survival and should know better. So who are we to judge?! You speak like you are above animals, talking about them as though they are below you. Funny a dog would never think you are below it. Says a lot.

My evidence:

Here's some more.

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Many years ago I worked at a riding stable. There was in residence there an very beautiful paint mare. She was glorious to look at but had the worst attitude of any horse in the barn. To say she was spirited was far off the mark. She was a big mean b****.

The man who owned her was an accomplished rider who enjoyed the challenge of such a horse. Now, this man had a girl friend who suffered from muscular dystrophy. She could not walk and her range of movement was very limited. He would bring his GF to the stable, set her on his beautiful, dangerous horse, (bareback, the GF could not sit in the saddle comfortably) the horse would walk around as delicately and carefully as if she were walking on ice. He would mount one of his other horses and they would spend an hour or two on the horses just walking leisurely around the farm.

That horse made a conscious choice to be gentle with that woman. That is morality. To call it anything else is disingenuous.

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Here's some more.

Those are both beautiful stories. :tu:

Don't see how anyone can say they don't have feelings or morality.

Many years ago I worked at a riding stable. There was in residence there an very beautiful paint mare. She was glorious to look at but had the worst attitude of any horse in the barn. To say she was spirited was far off the mark. She was a big mean b****.

The man who owned her was an accomplished rider who enjoyed the challenge of such a horse. Now, this man had a girl friend who suffered from muscular dystrophy. She could not walk and her range of movement was very limited. He would bring his GF to the stable, set her on his beautiful, dangerous horse, (bareback, the GF could not sit in the saddle comfortably) the horse would walk around as delicately and carefully as if she were walking on ice. He would mount one of his other horses and they would spend an hour or two on the horses just walking leisurely around the farm.

That horse made a conscious choice to be gentle with that woman. That is morality. To call it anything else is disingenuous.

Beautiful story, thank you for sharing this. :tu:

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Almost all animals, especially dogs and cats, have feelings. That means they can love, but i don't think they have the ability to choose whether they will love a human or not.

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Seems to me animals only reflect the way humans act and feel, when animals have come in enough human contact. I think they operate off of our feelings or vibe as to what is right and what is wrong, not their own. I don't think they have a individual moral compass, unlike what some Scientists and PETA members want us to believe.

When animals come in human contact and you train them enough, they will act like they have a moral compass because it's what you teach them and what they see you do. They watch you, they observe and they learn; monkey see, monkey do and all that. So it's really only because we're intervening they act morally sometimes, even some of the wild animals. Other wise they know no better and if we weren't here, they'd go with their true nature of "doggie eats doggie" for survival and have no regrets about it.

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These chickens have morals... :P

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I forget the source but trust me. They did a 2 rat experiment. Every time rat1 presses a lever he would get food and rat2 would receive an electric shock. When rat1 saw this he went hungry rather than cause rat2 (who was a stranger), any pain. The interesting human moral point is the scientists destroyed both rats at the end of the experiment. This is because a new experiments results would be tainted by the last one. Rats had higher morals than humans in this example.

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Argue that isn't some sort of sense of morality.

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I forget the source but trust me. They did a 2 rat experiment. Every time rat1 presses a lever he would get food and rat2 would receive an electric shock. When rat1 saw this he went hungry rather than cause rat2 (who was a stranger), any pain. The interesting human moral point is the scientists destroyed both rats at the end of the experiment. This is because a new experiments results would be tainted by the last one. Rats had higher morals than humans in this example.

Yes, this experiment was documented in Frans de Waal's book Primates and Philosophers; how morality evolved.

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my unscientific opinion is that animals are people. even bugs.

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Almost all animals, especially dogs and cats, have feelings. That means they can love, but i don't think they have the ability to choose whether they will love a human or not.

i don't think humans have the ability to choose whether the will love or not either. i think we can choose to deny love by closing off, but when you feel love for someone it isn't because you decided to. it comes to you.

with dogs and cats i imagine they make that 'decision' based on a number of factors directly related to the person is question, and i think we as humans pretty much come upon it the same way

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Earlier today I came across this story (from last year) about a widowed mother goose and a protective deer.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/04/buffalo_cemeterys_webcam_track.html

The deer, somehow, knew that the nest had to be protected and made a decision to do so. Seems like morals to me.

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Well, I've seen some stuff.

I saw a stray dog chase away a stray mother cat, but it's kitten was left behind, as soon as the dog saw the kitten, it seemed to 'like it', gently licked and felt it and maybe worried for the little guy.

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Anyone who argues that animals are devoid of spirit probably lacks a soul themselves.

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i don't think humans have the ability to choose whether the will love or not either. i think we can choose to deny love by closing off, but when you feel love for someone it isn't because you decided to. it comes to you.

with dogs and cats i imagine they make that 'decision' based on a number of factors directly related to the person is question, and i think we as humans pretty much come upon it the same way

Well, i agree with you, but what does happen, when you break-up with someone? In the end you'll be trying to overcome your feelings about him/her and that's probably one way of controlling yourself (and therefore what you feel), so i believe that we kind of have the ability to deciding if we will love someone and who should we forget forever (i'm not implying, that there won't be any leftovers from your love for this person inside you, but you have to and you could as well leave it behind, so that you can move forward, if you get, what i mean). As for dogs and cats, i believe, that they can create special love bonds with a person, no matter what this person would be. I hope i haven't made you confused. If you want me to explain, what i said, more simply, just tell me. Have a great day :) Edited by CuriousGreek

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animals are more prone to love than be evil but scientits, yes scientits are sooo smart they will immediately give their so called undeniable conclusions to what transpire to such behavior of an animal that acts or behave as not to be expect from an animal. example, the lion that adopts a deer. the leopard that killed the mother baboon and adopts the baby baboon. the hippo that gave a mouth to mouth recessutation to that small deer the crocodile almost ate but died later.

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