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Big Bad Voodoo

Atlantis was in West Africa

117 posts in this topic

The Atlantis story exists nowhere in Egyptian texts, inscriptions, myths or legends.

cormac

What of the Egyptian tale of ship wreck sailor in 2000 bc who tells of a island that will rise and sink again, a island of the blest. The city of Tartesso was known to the greeks as the island of the blessed.

http://www.reshafim....cked_sailor.htm

Strabo, Geography 3. 2. 11 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :

"The mountain in which the river Baetis is said to rise [in southern Iberia] is called ‘Silver Mountain’ on account of the silver-mines that are in it . . . The ancients seem to have called the Baetis River [of Hispania] ‘Tartessos’; and to have called Gades and the adjoining islands ‘Erytheia’; and this is supposed to be the reason why Stesikhoros spoke as he did about [Eurytion] the neat-herd of Geryon, namely, that he was born ‘about opposite famous Erytheia, beside the unlimited, silver-rooted springs of the river Tartessos, in a cavern of a cliff.’ Since the river had two mouths, a city was planted on the intervening territory in former times, it is said,--a city which was called ‘Tartessos,’ after the name of the river . . . Further Eratosthenes says that the country adjoining Kalpe is called ‘Tartessis,’ and that Erytheia is called ‘Blest Island’ (Nesos Eudaimos)."

http://www.theoi.com...s/Erytheia.html

Edited by docyabut2

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What of the Egyptian tale of ship wreck sailor in 2000 bc who tells of a island that rose and sank again, a island of the blest. The city of Tartesso was known to the greeks as the island of the blessed.

http://www.reshafim....cked_sailor.htm

There are two problems with that idea. 1) Nubia and Kush are bordered by the Red Sea and not the Mediterranean, so Tartessos is irrelevant to the story. 2) Mycenaeans aside, there were no Greeks to link to the Egyptian tale in 2000 BC as you're attempting.

cormac

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We tend to get caught up in Plato's supposed retelling of the tale of Atlantis and lose sight of the fact that Plato says that the story was originally Egyptian, and passed down to him from Solon who intern heard it from priests while on his travels through Egypt.

Plato also goes on to say that the original names for places and gods in the story were changed or Hellenized (transposed into alternate corresponding Greek names) from their original Egyptian names in order to be more familiar to his Greek audience.

Therefore if one were to look for any elements of truth to the tale of Atlantis then one would necessarily have to explore ancient Egyptian mythologies, not the Greek i.e. look for some corresponding Egyptian deities that are similar to the Greek god Poseidon and his half mortal son Atlas(2) (not to be confused with the other Atlas(1) who's labor as a Titan was to hold up the celestial sphere) and if they are associated with the sudden disappearance of a people that came from an island in the sea.

It's been recorded as a historical event that the Athenians had been involved in, in the sacred registers, it's not said to be an Egyptian myth.

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Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

From link you provided.

Because that doesnt fit in your view its junk.

I think you've done a great job of referencing information L and agree that it's the most likely place, considering there is an Atlantis Sea and Atlanteans as well as Mt Atlas there.

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Hi The L,

I go with some quotes!

Is Troy real?

Is Tartessos real?

Did Phoenicans invented alphabet?

Did Amazons existed?

alledgedly-you didnt read thread and you dont nothing about history itself.

Tell me do you believe that Haphaestus lived? I do because every well educated historian does.

And guess what he was from Olympus.

Did Tacitus,Strabo,Diodorus,Plutarch wrote truth?

As I already wrote elsewhere on UM, we have to be very careful with greek historians. They tended to mix historical facts with myths: not because they were stupid or naive, but because, to them, they were the same. They had a religion with personified gods. To them they were real, just like to us (at least, for who believes) are real Jesus and the apostles. History was the story of men, while myth was the story of gods, as real as history and entwined with it.

We don't know if Troy is real: Schliemann didn't find homeric Troy, but a city (if I'm not wrong seven stratified cities) resembling Troy, but not the mythical one.

So yes, Tacitus, Strabo, Diodorus, Plutarch wrote truth, but truth according to their way of seeing life and history.

I add that in old times the pillars of Hercules have been moved quite a lot along the Mediterrean Sea: their actual position is only the last one. They basically followed greek knowledge of the seas, so they started from East to West. In homeric times, for instance, they were placed at the entrance of the Black Sea.

So it's not strange that Diodorus placed them in Lybia and not in Gibraltar.

No need, you selectively repeated diodorus siculus enough.

What you've left out is that the people Siculus referred to as Atlantians in those passages were the people living around Mount Atlas in the Atlas Mountain range of North Africa. He states this in his description of the area surrounding the marsh that was the Amazons' home:

IBID 3.53.4

These people were the same ones written about by Herodotus hundreds of years earlier and are not even similar to what Plato described:

Herodotus' "Histories," Book 4 184

Hence, that's not Plato's Atlantis.

Harte

Here I go with Harte, those described by Diodorus weren't the Atlanteans from Atlantis, but the dwellers of the Atlas mountains region.

The Atlantis Sea you're referring to, is named after the Titan Atlas, who lived under the Atlas mountain, not after Atlantis (that's been named after Atlas too, but, you know, Greeks were quite complicated :lol: ).

You rightly ask about the texts Diodorus took his informations from: we don't know them, but consider that Plato lived 400 years before him, so, to him, they were quite old writings. To us they're all Greeks, but it's like we find a book from 1600 BC. It's all another world, and so was for them. And we have to remember that Diodorus was Greek, but in a Roman world and time.

We have to consider another important thing: we talk about horses, and, as we can read, amazons were great riders. As you know it's probable that horse domestication happened in central Europe around 7th millenium BC, so, how do we combine this date with our amazons?

If you want to retrodate their story, back at 10.000 BC they didn't have horses (at least, as far as we know), so it doesn't work; if you want to place them in a more feasable time, we don't have any historical, nor archaeological evidence of them.

So, to me, your idea is good, and maybe there's something true in what you've found, but I wouldn't link it with amazons.

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Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

From link you provided.

If you read what Herodotus wrote about them, instead of quote-mining, it is clear that he is using a Greek word that would describe people living in the shadow of Mount Atlas. Mount Atlas was named after the Titan Atlas. Plato's Atlantis was named after Plato's fictional human Atlas, son of Poseidon and Clito:

In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.

Critias (Plato)

Because that doesnt fit in your view its junk.

So, explain to me who this "Gorgon" culture was?

You do know that everything Siculus wrote on this is based on Plato's Timaeus and Critias dialogues, right?

Harte

Edited by Harte

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Earth is moving around Sun therfore Atlantis didnt exist.

What kind of argument is that Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That isnt what my evidence indicates.

My evidence indicates what Greek Historian wrote. That Amazons attack Atlanteans.

Atlantis is itself a Greek word which fits quite well (of course) with the way the Greeks used it. See:

The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC (Hdt. 1.202.4): Atlantis thalassa (Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα; English: Sea of Atlas).

Source Wiki

Note the term "θάλασσα" and then read what was posted in Greek from Herodotus. You'll find that Greek word (which is a word for sea, or open sea, in ancient Greek)immediately preceding the word Atlantis in the Greek script in the posted pic.

Herodotus merely used the Greek word Atlantis in reference to the Sea of Atlas. The "of Atlas" part translates to "Atlantis" in Greek.

Harte

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Two things here.

First, as a poster I will stress that it's evident the word "Atlantis" was in the Greek language well before Plato came along. No one is claiming Plato invented the word itself. However, Plato was the first to present the story as we understand it: the high civilization on a vast island-continent at war with Athens 9,000 years before Solon but destroyed by geological disaster. No one prior to Plato writes of this saga. By all appearances, of course, Plato concocted it himself.

Second, as a Moderator and having seen some of the epic-length opening posts, I will remind posters not to copy and paste entire articles or even long passages of them. Doing so not only almost guarantees no one will care to read them, but it might well risk copyright issues.

The rules of UM are clear on this:

2c. Plagiarism and copyright: If you quote text from an external web site then please always provide a source link. Members are asked to copy only as much as is necessary when quoting material from external sources, do not copy and paste entire articles or web pages. ( See our Sourcing FAQ )

So, be sure to copy only a paragraph or two and provide a link to the web page of origin so the interested reader can read the entire article at his or her leisure, if desired.

Thanks.

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Clearly the dialogues points to the pillars of Hercules at Gibraltar and the country called Gaderia, when the tale was told to Solon .

The Greeks knew the city as Gadira or Gadeira.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadiz

As the Egyptain priest was saying to Solon

And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira

http://www.theoi.com...s/Atlantes.html

Edited by docyabut2

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Just an aside: the older, Phoenician name of the Pillars was Pillars of Melqart.

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Now it just that you remember Gorgons as mythical creatures so you think Amazons attack monsters.

Also mythology doesnt work that way. Im sure that 95% myths are based on true events just people didn have been able to put it in words because of countless factors.

No it has nothing to do with memory but with Diodorus mixing Myth (Fantasy) with reality. If I am wrong then, using sources other than Diodorus, give us more information on the Gorgons.

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Maybe Athena was a Gorgon, or an Amazon or both, some kind of high priestess with a temple, in Libya, part of West Africa at the time, maybe the Serer people, with their snake spirits.

The women of this ancient people plait their hair when they marry and if found to be unfaithful to her husband, it is unplaited as a kind of mark of dishonour. This reminds me of Medusa and how when caught by Athena in her temple, she punished Medusa by turning her hair to snakes, then Medusa gets beheaded by Perseus. Not good to be unfaithful to Athena. Maybe Athena put it on her Aegis to remind one how dangerous it is to worship Poseidon and not her.

Plato says he thinks Athena has come into Greece, via Crete, from Libya at the dawn of Greek civilisation.

Plato, in the Laws, attributes the cult of Athena to the culture of Crete, introduced, he thought, from Libya during the dawn of Greek culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

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@Parsec

Although I agree that they mix history with myths who can tell that there isnt true in myths? For example as I already said before in this thread Egyptian Ptah and Greek Hephaestus were alive person. Yes they are not probably called Ptah or Hephaestus or maybe firstone was called. However they are smithers. Maybe guild? Maybe. But I would say rather proffesion. Also Diodorus didnt mix myths and history. He wrote history and mention when his back up material is myth. In some places he dont pointed out that he wrote about myths. But thats why we have historians. Its job of living people to move facts from myths and seek truth in those myths. However I will pointed out that no matter does he wrote history with myths his accounts are priceless.

Herodotus and Livy wrote about some things that todays historians thinks it isnt true like Romul and Rem story.Some later historian thinks that if isnt true it isnt important.

They are important to real historianbecause we can understand how people think. Diodorus think that pillars are in Lybia. He think that they conquer Amazons. He think that Amazons beat Gorgons. Now, he even wrote that he rewrite history. Also why would he lied about people in west Africa called Atlanteans? Did he lied when he mentioned Greeks? Scythians? Ofcourse he didnt lied. So we assume he lied about Atlanteans because its too similar with Atlantis. Now I mentioned three volumes of history of the world written by Babylonian priest Berrosus. Who know how many histories we have been lost? Were Guttians real? Then we can argued does any culture exist if we didnt find their fort and temple, if we just have historical account.

I cant agree you. Im sure myths have origin in true events. Jesus was God to Apostoles. They are sure he was, because why would all of them died, literally, for claiming that. Would you die for someone not being your family? Not to mention that your life depends on small confession: He was not God. Yet all apostoles died, many on cross as Jesus.

Also when I read a Bible I found somthing interesting. I dont remember where so I can put right quote. It goes: Ask your God a fish and he will not give you a snake. Would you give your child a snake if he asked for fish. Now that message is strong. Now would you said to your child that Jesus was God? Now we can trace that line to Apostoles. Who were convinced. Just a thought.

Again I cant agree with you with Troy thing. First there are 9 levels of Troy. Second I will not post pictures of it but description and archaeological site are matching. Also I found Illiad great historic book. Many interesting things we found there which are confirmed. To me Illiad is historical book. Not as modern Gun Germs and Steel but written in different manner. From there we know how powerfull was Crete and so on. Bible can be read as historical book too. You can calculate years and see that many things matches. You can read about provinces in Judea and Israel. New testament is compilation of four books. So four people record same thing.

Now I see this. Parsec:Tacitus, Strabo, Diodorus, Plutarch wrote truth, but truth according to their way of seeing life and history.

I wish I see this before it would saved me from writting many sentences above. Anyway we agree. But its on us to solve puzzle.

Maybe Diodorus wanted to tell us that Greek frontier was Lybia at that time. So their movement of pillars at that time when Horus ruled Egypt were in Lybia.

I agree that Atlantis dea was named after Atlas mountain and after Titan Atlas. So Diodorus Atlanteans were named for geographic region. Okay. but could it be that Plato called Utopia land for same region? Ibernian peninsula-Ibernians. Why do you think that Plato didn call Atlas mountain Atlas?

And thanks for thinking as Puzzler that my idea was good. But Im sure Im not first to place it there. Im sure people read Diodorus before. But I have to link it with Amazons. They conquer Atlantis. Horse argument is good one. I dont know. Many things are possible. That evidence in central Europe is what it is. Earliset known evidence. That doesnt say that we wouldnt find older. Maybe Atlantis was ruined 6000 BC. Maybe Plato got his calendar wrong.

Also what can happened. We know that we doesnt have any original Plato work. Only copies. Now back then there were no printing press, so who know what Plato wrote.

Maybe scribes false a number.

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So, explain to me who this "Gorgon" culture was?

You do know that everything Siculus wrote on this is based on Plato's Timaeus and Critias dialogues, right?

Now read what I wrote about myths in above post. Also why wouldnt Gorgons be people who worship Gorgon from myth so they were called Gorgons?

Why would Gorgons must be linked at all with Myth? Maybe there are people called Gorgons. And as Diodorus wrote they live in west africa and they were conquered after Amazon conquer Atlantis.

I dont know that Diodorus used Plato as his final and only account. As I remember reading him in beging he wrote that he wrote it down so previous written histories wouldnt be lost.

So he used term histories or historians...

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However, Plato was the first to present the story as we understand it: the high civilization on a vast island-continent at war with Athens 9,000 years before Solon but destroyed by geological disaster. No one prior to Plato writes of this saga. By all appearances, of course, Plato concocted it himself.

Second, as a Moderator and having seen some of the epic-length opening posts, I will remind posters not to copy and paste entire articles or even long passages of them. Doing so not only almost guarantees no one will care to read them, but it might well risk copyright issues.

Plato first spoke about Atlantis and disaster. However Diodorus was second he spoke. Only his disaster were Amazons and he didnt said Atlantis but Atlanteans. Also maybe disaster strike Atalaneans after they were conquered. Or better before. So Amazons Atalanteans are successors of Platos Atlanteans. They are survivors.

Also Plato is defenetly not first to spoke about advanced civilization in the west.

About second part. I now see its against ruled however I dont think that Diodorus will sue us. But it wont happened again. Although I found every word precious in it.And I could speculate hours on only one word in it. So I found them as basis for this thread.

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Just an aside: the older, Phoenician name of the Pillars was Pillars of Melqart.

I didnt know that. Thanks. I wonder many things now but I will not rush with it.

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I didnt know that. Thanks. I wonder many things now but I will not rush with it.

The Greeks did nothing but follow the Phoenicians in their path, just to find out about their secrets.

And something else: the Jews erected two pillars in some synagogue near the Strait of Gibraltar (in Cadiz, actually), and they called them Jachin and Boaz.

The Phoenicians helped build the second temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, and in front of the entrance of that temple they erected those two pillars,"Jachin" and "Boaz".

I should add that the Hebrews traveled along with their kin: the Phoenicians.

I should alsoo add that I am quite fkd now.

But I hope you did get the message.

+++

EDIT:

It were the Phoenicians AND the Hebrews, who traveled along with them, who named the Strait of Gibraltar, "Pillars of this or that".

The Greeks equated Melqart with Hercules, and that's where we get the name, "Pillars of Hercules".

.

Edited by Abramelin
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No it has nothing to do with memory but with Diodorus mixing Myth (Fantasy) with reality. If I am wrong then, using sources other than Diodorus, give us more information on the Gorgons.

Read my answer to Harte.

But I will try to be creative.

Gargareans were male tribes which Amazons used for reproduction as Greek myths tell us. When they born female they kept her and males are given to Gargareans.

Now did Amazon went on rape invasions in foregin lands. Did they used Diodorus Gorgons for sex? Did Gargareans came from Gorgons.

Then they conquered Atlantis and maybe Amazons saw that Atlanteans were smarter. Or Amazons were great lovers so Atlanteans became jealous so thats motive why they convinced Amazons for destroying Gorgons.

Furthermore Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote that Gegar lived in north of Caucasus. Almost all people on earth agree that they are same people as Strabo Gargarei.

Now lets see what Strabo said: "... the Amazons live close to Gargarei, on the northern foothills of the Caucasus mountains".

Those are same Amazons which came from Lybia. Now they came as rebeled POW runing from Greeks. They were living to Gargarei.

Now could it be that Gargarei was name given to some tribe which Amazon consider to be male slave tribe.

Gorgons-Gargarei. Similar?

Maybe Gargarei was word for male slave in Amazon language.

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While I do not dismiss the notion of "Atlantis", I wonder if a catastrophic volcanic event or such completely obliterated the island, leaving nothing left for science, but much for eternal conjecture.

And I, for one, do not believe that they were "advanced" such as having special crystals imparting some form of "power"

I think, if they existed, they were just an island nation with the normal "pray to our gods" scenario.

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Maybe Athena was a Gorgon, or an Amazon or both, some kind of high priestess with a temple, in Libya, part of West Africa at the time, maybe the Serer people, with their snake spirits.

The women of this ancient people plait their hair when they marry and if found to be unfaithful to her husband, it is unplaited as a kind of mark of dishonour. This reminds me of Medusa and how when caught by Athena in her temple, she punished Medusa by turning her hair to snakes, then Medusa gets beheaded by Perseus. Not good to be unfaithful to Athena. Maybe Athena put it on her Aegis to remind one how dangerous it is to worship Poseidon and not her.

Plato says he thinks Athena has come into Greece, via Crete, from Libya at the dawn of Greek civilisation.

Plato, in the Laws, attributes the cult of Athena to the culture of Crete, introduced, he thought, from Libya during the dawn of Greek culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

From Lybia to Crete.Imagine that. When? Remember topless Minoan priestes with snakes? ;)

Female dominating priestes? With snakes? Maybe Athena was Amazon indeed...

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From Lybia to Crete.Imagine that. When? Remember topless Minoan priestes with snakes? ;)

Female dominating priestes? With snakes? Maybe Athena was Amazon indeed...

I actually think the snake waving (of the Cretan priestesses) was a possible summoning the snake spirits, people don't wave things in the air in rituals like this for nothing, they were a kind of receptor of the actual spirit. The cult of Athena I think is connected to this ritual. The same as Hermes staff, with snakes on it too - snake spirit receptors. Snakes are everywhere in Athens, especially in myth.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Geryon the king of Iberia was the grandson of Posidion and Medusa .

http://www.theoi.com...s/Gorgones.html

http://www.theoi.com...r/Khrysaor.html

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 17. 1 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) :

"The cattle of Geryones, which pastured in the parts of Iberia which slope towards the ocean. And Herakles, realizing that the task called for preparation on a large scale and involved great hardships, gathered a notable armament and a multitude of soldiers as would be adequate for this expedition. For it had been noised abroad throughout all the inhabited world that Khrysaor (Golden-Sword), who received this appellation because of his wealth, was king over the whole of Iberia, and that he had three sons [the three-bodied Geryon] to fight at his side, who excelled in both strength of body and the deeds of courage which they displayed in contests of war; it was known, furthermore, that each of these sons had at his disposal great forces which were recruited from warlike tribes. It was because of these reports that Eurystheus, thinking any expedition against these men would be too difficult to succeed, had assigned the Herakles the Labour just described."

Kings of Tartesso

Khrysa'or

Geryon

Norax

Gargoris

Habis

Arganthonis

Edited by docyabut2

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Kings of Tartesso

Chrysa'or 1325 BC (the time of Perseus and Medusa)

Geryon 1250 BC (at the time of Heracles)

Norax 850 BC

Gargoris 800 BC

Habis 750 BC

Arganthonis.700 to 550 BC

the end of a empire

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Could you tell us where you got those names from, Docyabut2?

Maybe something is going wrong on my side of the internet, but I can't find all the names you posted.

All I find is you posting that list:

http://www.historum....html#post897644

http://www.historum....tml#post1001383

http://atlantisonlin...ge;topic=1591.0

http://atlantisonlin...c=1591.115;wap2

+++

EDIT:

From here:

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=133188&postcount=38

Or from here:

http://www.rah.es/pdf/pdfmag/505-2005_Tartesos_Literatura.pdf

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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