Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
CelestialStar

Forced religion

159 posts in this topic

You opened yourself wide open with that statement. The Muslims are just the latest in a long line of atrocities inflicted by the followers of the god of Abraham. The only reason for the Palestinian, Israeli conflict is based on the Zionist idea the Jews have a right to the land because the Torah/Bible says they do. There are fundamentalist Christians who burn their own children because they think they are witches in Africa. Just rampant nuttiness.

They claim Abraham as their father but their god is NOT the God of the Bible. A cursory reading of the Qur'an shows this. To act as though they are all the same is just PC mindlessness. And if you think that what is happening all over the M.E. and the wider world is being caused by Christians or Jews I would wonder about your sanity. Most of the death and destruction ongoing in the world this day is from Islamists - of that there simply can be no denial by a sane mind.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

poor poor kids

hating people is not the answer coz they'll only hate you back

weather those who chant hate loud agree or disagree there is extemeists in all religions

and they're all the same threat level to everybody

like it .. or not it's reality so face it or go back to your hateful illusions

where certain religion doesn't exist but when you are ready to wake up to reality again

that religion is till gonna be there and hate is not going to make it go away

hate makes exteremists out of anyone not only muslims

Edited by Knight Of Shadows

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

poor poor kids

hating people is not the answer coz they'll only hate you back

weather those who chant hate loud agree or disagree there is extemeists in all religions

and they're all the same threat level to everybody

like it .. or not it's reality so face it or go back to your hateful illusions

where certain religion doesn't exist but when you are ready to wake up to reality again

that religion is till gonna be there and hate is not going to make it go away

hate makes exteremists out of anyone not only muslims

KoS the extremists in other religions cause problems - even kill in small numbers. Islamic extremists are responsible for thousands of deaths all over the world. Denying this makes you lose credibility with reasonable people.
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KoS the extremists in other religions cause problems - even kill in small numbers. Islamic extremists are responsible for thousands of deaths all over the world. Denying this makes you lose credibility with reasonable people.

you wanna talk numbers and then ?

how many people extremeists christians anti-black group killed ?

how many people extremist hitler christian killed ?

how many palestinians jewish extremists killed

want me to go on ? this surely won't end in your favor

you're just trying to give excuses for the hatefull kids here aren't you ? :D

i missed arguing with yo btw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christian groups in Uganda. The anti-homosexuality bill and the advocation to rid the country of homosexuals has resulted in hate driven crimes resulting in death.

Christianity was apparently intended to be a non-violent religion. But as soon as the Roman Empire adopted it, anyone who didn't follow the rules were outlawed. Since then we have had the crusades, the inquisition etc. Is this not a form of radicalism?

You say Christianity doesnt do it as much now? Maybe other religions are going though the phase Christianity did a bit later, just in smaller groups of radicals of course.

Uganda?? you compare one militia group formed in 1987 by a primitive power ridden murderer who has been given access to guns, in a country which has corruption for breakfast, to a fanatical group which has been growing for many years all over the world?

The LRA is not a thriving group of people who want to bring down the west and take over the world with their beliefs.

Yes, the christians have done their fair share of murders, but they are not a threat today, so something has been learned from then, but Uganda in not on the same quest.

I am not religious and despise all those who murdered in the past in the name of religion, but today is another day and some cults are still at it, it just so happens its the fanatical islamists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are getting off topic with whole who is the worst extremest. I think we can agree extremism in all its forms is not a good and has created problems through out the world.

Here is an example is people who should have their children removed from their home for teaching and abusing their children with their extremest views.

http://natephelps.com/bio

Imo, if you teach your children to reason for themselves you will get a better result than if you force a doctrine on them. My kids were never force fed religion and they came out better than I thought they would. In all the time my children were young I didn't follow a religion. I didn't have any problems teaching them morals. What I really tried to instill in them was ethics and empathy.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do yo see yoursef as a failure? If not, how can your kids be failures in following your own morals ethics and behaviour? Ethics morality and behaviour are underscored by beliefs.

no, of course i would like to have children who had morals, and are probably not going to end up in jail or as drug addicts, and nomatter what they believe, to be kind to others, even people who are different.....i meant wanting them to grow their own opinions on things like religion, politics and various social issues where there isnt really a right or wrong answer instead of just mindlessly parrot mine. its kinda weird when you find families who have loads and loads of kids.....and all of the kids, even the adult ones, follow all of their parents beliefs unquestioningly, which makes it clear that theyve been taught to parrot, not think.

Call those beliefs religious or not, there is no way to separate them from our general beliefs. A religious persons' beliefs are underlined by religious based values. An atheist can have the same beliefs and values without a religious component, but must have some "faith based" reason to hold them eg they BELIEVE it is wrong to steal or hurt another person, because they believe.........

people dont do bad things, not because god can see them and send them to hell, but because they have empathy and a concience, which is something everyone naturally develops (unless youre a psychopath)-even if they dont get caught, they would feel guilty for what theyve done, and they avoid being mean to others because they have empathy and know that it hurts other peoples feelings.

If religious belief is a core and integral part of a parents human beliefs then they will not accept that a child can /will be the same as them, without believing as they do. If they have been fulfilled made happy kept safe etc by their belief, then they will believe their children can gain the same advantages via belief

but why not? surely any parent loves their child just the way they are, its not like they are a criminal or anything. i cant see why a parent would be so arrogant as to kick a child out for not following their beliefs, even though they are actually not hurting anyone with them or doing anything wrong. cant people of different religions and atheists just get along?

No parent wants less than the best for their child and will naturally work to deliver positive outcomes for them.

The human brain does not mature in women until the early 20s, and in men until the late twenties. Adolescents cannpt do the same forms of risk assessments as parents, because that part of their brain is among the last to develop. Brain development in people unde 20 is highly at risk from drugs and alcohol even in small amounts. Children simply do not posses the capacity to think in the way adults can, and so adults must make decisions for them.

yes, thats why parents teach their kids to stay away from drugs, eat heathily and go to school and stuff. religious beliefs or lack of them dont cause any lasting harm. and even if as a teenager they arent quite mature enough to make life decisions......but beliefs can change. even if they decide to have a different religion when theyre a teenager, they might keep it up as an adult, or they might go back to their parents religion or choose a different one. its not like once you leave a religion theres no coming back. theres no harm in letting a child try out other religions (as long as they dont get sucked into a cult)

Long before this was worked out scientifically, humans realised this and society evolved into authority based on parental control. Modern society is no different and modern children are biologically no different apart from a considerably earlier onset of puberty.They still require parental guidance and control, perhaps more so in a society which is breaking down and presents more dangers to young people than ever before.

as i said, parents should have authority over their children, but they also need to prepare them for being adults when they will have to make their own decisions. sure, make sure your child knows that drugs are bad, that hurting other people is wrong, and they need to go to school.....but let them have control over their own bodies in other things, like letting them choose their own friends, their own fashion style, and develop their own opinions on social issues and religion. these things arent permanent, and wont make a difference on how they live their lives in the things that really matter.

And p.s. no, it is not good enough for people to not do things for fear of consequence, or else they will do them if they think they can escape consequence. Tey must learn not to do things because they are ethically/morally wrong to do, and WHY that is so. Then they will act correctly, even when no one is watching, and when they will not be caught.

not wanting to do something because god will send them to hell forever is also fear of a consequence. you can teach a child morals and ethics without religion, most people develop it naturally anyway, and begin to feel sorry for other people who are sad, feel guilty about doing things wrong even if they didnt get caught....

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uganda?? you compare one militia group formed in 1987 by a primitive power ridden murderer who has been given access to guns, in a country which has corruption for breakfast, to a fanatical group which has been growing for many years all over the world?

The LRA is not a thriving group of people who want to bring down the west and take over the world with their beliefs.

Yes, the christians have done their fair share of murders, but they are not a threat today, so something has been learned from then, but Uganda in not on the same quest.

I am not religious and despise all those who murdered in the past in the name of religion, but today is another day and some cults are still at it, it just so happens its the fanatical islamists.

Well it was implied extremist radicalism was exclusive to those of Islam, regardless of their foundings and ambitions, what I outlined before is the behaviour of radical extremists that exist outside Islam.

What I outlined before is that Christianity has had levels of extremist radicalism on a nation wide scale. That's absolutely no comparison to what we see today. Ignorance gives birth to this thing and perhaps those in these cultures are exposed to less education and open mindedness than our cultures.

The problem here is people, not beliefs.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem here is people, not beliefs.

Beliefs cannot exist without the people

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi banana Couldnt respond to your post as posted, but a few points.

Opinions dont grow from within without external data and opinion. A parents job is to provide opinion data etc. A parents life experiences and wisdoms should be transfered to a child through stories converstions rules expectations etc., to give a foundation for their life. If I believe in certain ethics for good reasons then i want my childen to have the same ethics for the same good reasons, so i teach them, before they can develop less constructive ones.

Empathy, like love, has to be taught to children though demonstration or verbalisation. While humans a re capable of these things they are learned as a part of our socialisation. I agree that, more important than anything else, is a paren'ts role to teachh a child how to love and feel empathy

Wha tis wrong or harmful? My parents would have kicked me out of home at about 15 if i had smoked, done drugs, etc at home because of the influence it would have had on my younger siblings I understood that then and agreed with them, but another child might not. Their values might conflict with their parents and the only solution is for them to leave. A family can't compromise its ethics and standards just to keep a child at home. That is not a religious viewpoint but a philosophical one.

I never mentioned fear of hell. Religious ethics and morality have little to do with hell, and more with how and why we should live our lives. Religious beliefs are philosophical beliefs and the ethics of religions are basic human ethics and moralities. Religion provides a powerful positive motivation for people to live in a constructive and loving way.

Hell was added as a fear factor to christianity by the cathiolic church many centuries ago It does more harm than good. Christ (the founder of christianity by default) teaches us how to live as individuals and as members of our society. It is not the only ethicla system around but it is a very constructive and effective one.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi banana Couldnt respond to your post as posted, but a few points.

Opinions dont grow from within without external data and opinion. A parents job is to provide opinion data etc. A parents life experiences and wisdoms should be transfered to a child through stories converstions rules expectations etc., to give a foundation for their life. If I believe in certain ethics for good reasons then i want my childen to have the same ethics for the same good reasons, so i teach them, before they can develop less constructive ones.

yeah, i know that opinions dont grow on their own, which is why i would like any child of mine to have a good variety of life experiences and meet a variety of different people so they can grow their own. yeah, they can know my opinions, but know that they dont have to follow them and i will not think of them less if they choose not to. the thing is, there is no ethics and morals that come from me that couldnt come from religion, im already a pretty moral person where it actually matters and the only things religion adds are more insignificant rules that dont really affect your morality (like some religions dont allow you to eat and drink certain things, and of course prayer and stuff........and some teach homophobia and discrimination but honestly i dont think any child raised in my house could ever turn out that way).

Empathy, like love, has to be taught to children though demonstration or verbalisation. While humans a re capable of these things they are learned as a part of our socialisation. I agree that, more important than anything else, is a paren'ts role to teachh a child how to love and feel empathy

which doesnt have to come through religion. just cause you dont raise your child in a religion, doesnt mean you let them do whatever they want and let them be violent and do drugs. there are some religious parents who completely fail on the whole love and empathy thing and teach their children hate, so raising a child religious doesnt always mean its good.

Wha tis wrong or harmful? My parents would have kicked me out of home at about 15 if i had smoked, done drugs, etc at home because of the influence it would have had on my younger siblings I understood that then and agreed with them, but another child might not. Their values might conflict with their parents and the only solution is for them to leave. A family can't compromise its ethics and standards just to keep a child at home. That is not a religious viewpoint but a philosophical one.

but its a tiny little difference in opinions. yeah, if the teenager is violent, or is a drug addict or is doing something that does put the other children at risk, then yeah, they can go live somewhere else........but is religion really a big enough reason, the only difference is that they arent going to be coming to church on sundays. is it really a big deal? just cause theyre no longer following your religion, doesnt mean that theyre suddenly going to start killing people, doing drugs and having sex with anything that moves.

i dont see why not following your religion is a good reason to kick a child out of the house. not following your religion doesnt cause them to do anything evil. it wont cause any harm to the other kids. they may get exposure to another opinion, but is that really such a bad thing? any open minded parent (not of the super controlling fundie sort who shelters their child from any opinion other than their own) can easily explain to their children, and it could be a great learning moment.

kid: why doesnt _______ go to church?

parent: because she is atheist, which means she does not believe in god. i believe in god because of.....but not everyone does. other people have different opinions and thats okay.

or

parent: instead of going to church, she goes to mosque, because she is a muslim. there are many other different religions in the world, as some people choose to worship god in different ways to us. i follow christianity because it feels right to me, i read the bible and i believe it to be true.

see, a way for a child to both know the parent's opinions, but also understand that others dont share them. simple and to the point, and this is how i am going to teach my children about the differing opinions of the people of the world (not just religion, there are loads of different situations a talk like that could be useful). also teaching them appropriate ways to talk to other people about their beliefs and ask them questions without offending them is a good skill, its always good to be able to debate :)

I never mentioned fear of hell. Religious ethics and morality have little to do with hell, and more with how and why we should live our lives. Religious beliefs are philosophical beliefs and the ethics of religions are basic human ethics and moralities. Religion provides a powerful positive motivation for people to live in a constructive and loving way.

yes, religion does provide a motivation, and hell is of course not the only part of it, theres heaven as well, and also just thinking of what jesus would want them to do...its not the only way though, there are many different paths to follow in life that are also moral.

Hell was added as a fear factor to christianity by the cathiolic church many centuries ago It does more harm than good. Christ (the founder of christianity by default) teaches us how to live as individuals and as members of our society. It is not the only ethicla system around but it is a very constructive and effective one.

yeah, i dont agree with the whole "do this or you will go to hell" idea. fear can motivate people to do good, but its not a very good motivator, people shouldnt only do things because theyre afraid of the consequences (both religious "i dont want to go to hell" or consequences in this life "i dont want to go to jail"), but because they think it is the right thing to do. yes, following a religion is an effective way of teaching morals and ethics, theres loads of stories in various holy books about people who do the morally right thing to do and provide life lessons, but of course its not the only ethical system................but if you truly believe its not the only ethical system, why did you say above that a parent is justified in kicking their child out of the house if they didnt have the same religious opinions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beliefs cannot exist without the people

Exactly. We get rid of the problem (blind ignorance and possibly mental ailments) and we should be free of radical extremists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly. We get rid of the problem (blind ignorance and possibly mental ailments) and we should be free of radical extremists.

You said beliefs are not the problem, it's the people.. You now agree that without the people there can be no beliefs.. So how do you suggest the problem can be solved?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some parents force their religion on their kids, in example, some christian parents dragging their child to church every Sunday and will punish the child for expressing disbelief or not wanting to go. Is it fair....no. is it right........no.

What are your thoughts on the matter, remember, we are not here to argue, just to calmly express our thoughts on the matter.

Did you ever notice that kids aren't born worshiping, they are most times forced to do so,

religion isn't innately known at birth, it is to me seemingly forced down the throats of innocent children at a young age.

Sometimes, a religion forced can cloud judgement and cause hatred to appear toward others.....Your thoughts?

i used to go to church and i used to take my children with me. when the time came that they didn't want to go, that was the last time they did.

i would never force a child to believe something just because i did. i do think it's important to get them started on their own spiritual journey, but where that leads is entirely up to them.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I see it, belief should be a personal thing and not forced upon everyone by other people. You should get to believe what you want, try it out and see how it affects you and the people around you. Forcing everyone to believe in one thing isn't right.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I see it, belief should be a personal thing and not forced upon everyone by other people. You should get to believe what you want, try it out and see how it affects you and the people around you. Forcing everyone to believe in one thing isn't right.

i agree. in any case i really don't understand how a person could be forced to believe anything. belief is voluntary and deliberate on the part of the person doing the believing. if it's not in the heart it's not there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a kid I was forced to go to church only when my grandparents (who lived out of town)were around. It was out of respect for them and I remember the guilt trips and lectures ( intended to shame us into going more) we were given about not attending mass weekly. I could never do that with my own kids. Even as a kid it never felt right to be forced into something that was supposed to be about love. I am grateful my parents did encouraged me to pray, because it did help me develop my own spirituality. They would discuss any faith with me always, but most importantly they taught me to think for myself and encouraged me to to explore other religions when I showed interest in them.

I agree too that belief or non belief is extremely personal. I'm not religious, but that wouldn't stop me from allowing my kids to attend mass if they showed serious interest, just as well as I wouldn't force them to be there if I was religious.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You said beliefs are not the problem, it's the people.. You now agree that without the people there can be no beliefs.. So how do you suggest the problem can be solved?

Well those types of people I have outline are usually the forefront of such beliefs so yes what I said initially still stands with my contention.

How can we solve this problem? Education and providing the necessary help to the mentally ill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can we solve this problem? Education and providing the necessary help to the mentally ill.

For anyone who is too far gone into their beliefs, what you suggest will cost a lot of money.. The majority of the worlds population ( billions ) all believe in some sort of higher power.. So, how do you determine who is what you call 'mentally ill' ? To add - Who would give the authority to screen them, to find out if they are mentally ill or not?

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone who is too far gone into their beliefs, what you suggest will cost a lot of money.. The majority of the worlds population ( billions ) all believe in some sort of higher power.. So, how do you determine who is what you call 'mentally ill' ? To add - Who would give the authority to screen them, to find out if they are mentally ill or not?

Not suggesting to screen everyone, but those who show radical extremist tendencies.

Extremist behaviour is not good on either side and I can't say I'd know a fullproof method for any authority to conduct such, perhaps family members could admit them (like the normal system goes I believe). Implementing education into schools about practising religion sensibly.

The main reason for the spreading of extremist behaviour is due to the wrong thing being told to impressionable people. Also as I said ignorance, whether intentional or inability to get a proper education.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's called indoctrination. This is how you join any cult, I mean religion.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well those types of people I have outline are usually the forefront of such beliefs so yes what I said initially still stands with my contention.

How can we solve this problem? Education and providing the necessary help to the mentally ill.

These mentally ill, were they mentally ill before or after converting to a religion?

It's called indoctrination. This is how you join any cult, I mean religion.

you were right the first time. ;)

Edited by freetoroam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not suggesting to screen everyone, but those who show radical extremist tendencies.

Kidnap them and treat them all? lol.. Just kidding.. so tell me how do you get them all into treatment? Who pays for all of this ?

Do you not think it will cause more trouble than it's worth ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not suggesting to screen everyone, but those who show radical extremist tendencies.

Here in England we have problems sending certain people with radical extremist tendencies back to their own countries, can you imagine telling they have to go on a training course, and will have to be screened (which is not Pakistan related) ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These mentally ill, were they mentally ill before or after converting to a religion?

That depends on the individual. For example, the religion grew to an obsession and that grew from there due to their susceptibility to mental illness. Or they were already mentally ill and their radical take on their newfound religion is not exactly doing them any favours in their current mental state either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.