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Assassinated Hamas Leader, Received Draft Of

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One of your silly posts on that thread reads:

A few on this forum have tried to claim that the Arab migration to Palestine was so significant, that most of the Palestinians in Palestine during the mandate were not actually Palestinians at all! This myth was given credit, largely due to a book called Time Immemorial written by Joan Peters.

But lets look at the FACTS which, despite the overwhelmingly huge amount of evidence which show that the "Palestinians" are recent newcomers to the area, you choose to ignore.

By debunking the WELL-RESEARCHED claims by Joan Peters you have put yourself amongst nasty people such as Norman G. Finkelstein, The: 1) 'Holocaust denier' or at least trivialize-r, 2) openly praying for defeat at the hands of the Islamic terror group Hezbollah and praising those terrorists as "heroes." 3) demonized an author who exposed Anti-Semitism in Germany pre-Holocaust era. 4) He was even (first) on the damned list of "personalities" (joining neo-Nazis) to be attending the Holocaust so called "revisionists" or open deniers, under the dictator leader of the totalitarian Islamic Republic of Iran, the infamous Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in Tehran 2006.

The supporters of the "Palestinians" love to bang on about how the Israelis are outsiders who moved from other countries and flooded into Palestine (a geographical area, remember, never a nation state).

What they fail to mention - either through igorance or because it's an inconvenient truth - is that the same can be said of the "Palestinians".

Way back in 1939, testimony given to the US Congress said that 150,000 Arabs moved to the British Mandate for Palestine in just a 17 year period.

Immigrants include: Arab - Egyptians (mainly in the early 1800s), Syrian, Algerian, Sudanese, S. Arabians. Other Muslims from: Bosnia during the 1800s and fascist Nazi Slavic-Muslims after WW2 [this Slavic mix might explain the phenomenon of lighter skinned small group among those calling themselves "Palestinians"].

Basically, today's so called "Palestinians", who, up to the 1960s were referred to as either South Syrians prior to the 1920s, or plain Arabs, or more specifically Palestine Arabs, after the French removed Emir Faisal, from Damascus in 1920 since the late 1960s have adopted this title to be theirs exclusively, comprise a salad mixture of: Syrian Arabs, Saudi Arabs, Sudanese [Afro-]Arabs, Egyptian, Turkish, Kurdish, Bosnian, Algerian and others. Yet, this 'mixture' was never cohesive, nor did it ever before "see" itself as a "nation."

Research shows again and again that the British, whether by pressure of the violent Arabs or due to their own biased tendency, willfully ignored huge Arab immigration.

http://www.freerepub...s/2670895/posts

The fact of the matter is that Palestinians are NOT the Indigenous people of the Holy Land.

The Palestinian narrative, which is now widely accepted as a fact of history around the world, is the result of a systematic indoctrination through propaganda.

The Palestinians are neither the "Indians" nor the "Africans" of the Holy Land.

Most Palestinians immigrated to the Holy Land between the 19th and 20th centuries, during the Ottoman rule (1516 – 1918) and the British Mandate rule (1918 – 1948).

Arab penetration into the land of Israel (the ancient name for Palestine) came in four waves. The most recent - and the largest - occurred from 1832 to 1948.

The second part of this most recent wave - from 1917 to 1948, during the last years of being part of Ottoman Syria and then the British Mandate - saw Arabs and Muslims from Arabic and Muslim countries entering ILLEGALLY the country under the Turks and latter the British mandate from the eastern, northern and southern borders looking for jobs created by the Zionist movement and latter by the British Mandate (1918 – 1948).

The Arab population of the south (between Jaffa and the Egyptian border) grew by more than 200% between 1917 – 1940s. About 35,000 Arabs from the Haurain, South Syria came looking for work.

From 1870 to 1948 the Arabic population grew by 270%. Even in Egypt, the Arab country with the highest birth rate, the rate was only 105%, which proves that a significant part of the Arabic population growth came from immigration. By 1921when the British government performed its first census the number of Arabs and Muslims amounted to about 500,000. The 1931 British Census included about 30 different languages spoken by the Muslim population in Palestine. They were illegal immigrant workers from Arabic and Muslim countries. The high rate of children's deaths, law life expectancy and the lack of health services in the country made it impossible to reach 270% as a result of birth rate.

In Short, from about 250,000 around the end of the 19th century, many of them bedouins, the Arabic population grew to about 1,250,000 in 1948. The Palestinian claim that they are the ancient population of the so called Palestine has no ground.

Winston ChurchilL, said in May 22, 1939 that the Arab immigration to Palestine during the British Mandate was so large that their numbers grew in such proportion that even if all Jews immigrated to Palestine they could not reach that number.

Franklin D.Roosevelt, said in May 17, 1939 that the Arab immigration to Palestine since 1921 was much greater that Jewish immigration.

A significant part of the 1948 Palestinian refugees were first or second generation illegal immigrant workers.

http://rslissak.com/...ka-shpak-lissak

The final nail in your coffin that the "Palestinians" are the "native Indians" of that land comes in the fact that a huge amount of Palestinians have surnames which actually are a description of the place where the family came from.

Common Palestinians names include:

al-Iraqi - the Iraqi

al-Massri - the Egyptian

al-Lubani - the Lebanese

al-Mughrabi - the Moroccan

al-Djazair - the Algerian

al-Yamani - the Yemeni

al-Afghani - the Afghan

al-Turki - the Turk

al-Hindi - the Indian

al-Hourani - the Hauranite (from southern Syria)

al-Kurdi - the Kurd

al-Ajami - the Iranian

al-Shami- the Syrian

Khamis - Bahrain

al-Araj- part of Morocco

Halabi - Aleppo, Syria

But. try as I might, I have yet been able to find any "Palestinian" with the surname of al-Filastini (the Palestinian).

So it makes you think: If these Arabs are the native peoples of the area, then why do they have names like "the Iraqi" or "the Egyptian"?

The answer, of course, is simple. The Arabs in Palestine are NOT the native peoples of the area.

Still, the supporters of the "Palestinian" cause will go on denying it till hell freezes over, in face of the huge amount of evidence which shows they are WRONG.

The book on which this false information is based, is, literally, a fraud.

Note the bold:

Noam Chomsky defended and promoted Finkelstein's critique, commenting: [As] soon as I heard that the book was going to come out in England, I immediately sent copies of Finkelstein's work to a number of British scholars and journalists who are interested in the Middle East—and they were ready. As soon as the book [From Time Immemorial] appeared, it was just demolished, it was blown out of the water. Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn't even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. A lot of the criticism used Finkelstein's work without any acknowledgment, I should say—but about the kindest word anybody said about the book was "ludicrous," or "preposterous."[11]

As Chomsky recounts, on its UK release the book was subject to a number of scathing reviews. David and Ian Gilmour in The London Review of Books (February 7, 1985)[12] heavily criticized Peters for ignoring Arab sources and "censorship of Zionist sources that do not suit her case". They also present examples that in their view show that Peters misuses the sources which she does include in her work. They accuse Peters of basic errors in scholarship, such as the citation of Makrizi, who died in 1442, to support her statements about mid-nineteenth century population movements.[12] Oxford University historian, Albert Hourani, reviewing the book in the Observer (March 3, 1985) stated: The whole book is written like this: facts are selected or misunderstood, tortuous and flimsy arguments are expressed in violent and repetitive language. This is a ludicrous and worthless book, and the only mildly interesting question it raises is why it comes with praise from two well-known American writers.[13]

Following the book's negative reception in the UK, more critical reviews appeared in the United States. Columbia University professor Edward Said wrote unfavorably in The Nation (October 19, 1985),[14] while Robert Olson dismissed the book in the American Historical Review (April 1985), concluding: This is a startling and disturbing book. It is startling because, despite the author's professed ignorance of the historiography of the Arab-Israeli conflict and lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern history (pp. 221, 335) coupled with her limitation to sources largely in English (absolutely no Arab sources are used), she engages in the rewriting of history on the basis of little evidence. ...The undocumented numbers in her book in no way allow for the wild and exaggerated assertions that she makes or for her conclusion. This book is disturbing because it seems to have been written for purely polemical and political reasons: to prove that Jordan is the Palestinian state. This argument, long current among revisionist Zionists, has regained popularity in Israel and among Jews since the Likud party came to power in Israel in 1977.[15]

Reviewing the book for the November 28, 1985 issue of The New York Times, Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath described the book as a "sheer forgery," stating that "n Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon."[16] In 1986, Porath repeated his views in The New York Review of Books, and published a negative review that cites many inaccuracies.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

The novel she wrote was dismissed inside Israel itself, 'almost universally'.

Writing that book literally ended Joan Peters career.

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Do you have something against Jews?

Of course not. But the fact is, there was already a native population in Palestine when the UN conglomerate annexed 55% of their land away from them and gave away it to a immigrant minority (30%) basically proclaiming this is a Jewish state to be run by a Jewish government.

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Indeed they did, and have continued to decline entertaining any idea of a Jewish State in all the intervening years. The irony is that they will probably wind up accepting less land than they could have had back then had they just agreed to be civil. The bottom line here is that the problem always, always gets back to the intransigence of the Palestinians on borders and right of return. They will only accept a solution that gives them - either immediately or over time - ALL THE LAND. You can wrap it up anyway you like and place a really nice bow on it but that's what it comes down to. And while they have listened to hate filled rhetoric for 6 decades and spilled blood at every opportunity, Israel has created a thriving State in spite of them. Then placed a nuclear umbrella over it. You'd think they'd see the handwriting and just make peace. But hatred clouds clear vision.

Amazing, and have you ever investigated Plan Dalet? And I reiterate once again, most of the Jewish casualties during the 1948 war occured on lands that were partitioned to the Arab Palestinians by the UN. How about that intransigence of the Jews on borders and right of return?

How come Israel declines to declare its borders? Huh? Huh? (*hint, its too busy erecting settlements)

Why doesnt Israel have a constitution? Huh? Huh?

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Of course not.

Convince me otherwise.

But the fact is, there was already a native population in Palestine when the UN conglomerate annexed 55% of their land away from them and gave away it to a immigrant minority (30%) basically proclaiming this is a Jewish state to be run by a Jewish government.

Whilst allowing for a Palestinian state to be run by a Palestinian government. And anyway, I've seen enough here.

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Of course not. But the fact is, there was already a native population in Palestine when the UN conglomerate annexed 55% of their land away from them and gave away it to a immigrant minority (30%) basically proclaiming this is a Jewish state to be run by a Jewish government.

The reality is that regardless what came before, Israel exists and always will. The Palestinians would do well to make an agreement and stop the thievery of the land they have left asap. Not trying to be confrontational here, Bug, just practical. But we both know it's not going to happen. The Palestinians will continue the "struggle" and the Israelis will have cover to continue the settling of new land. The rage continues to build and war results. It's not rocket science (no pun intended)

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After all those rocket attacks I am not surprised.

Rockets after 50 years of open air improsment, ethinic cleansing and 50 years of holocaust on Palestinians, rockets after that is no where near appropriate!

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Rockets after 50 years of open air improsment, ethinic cleansing and 50 years of holocaust on Palestinians, rockets after that is no where near appropriate!

What would be appropriate?

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What would be appropriate?

This is a question I'd really like an answer to as well. I often wonder what some folks here think the appropriate action against Israel should be. They never really say and I think it's because if they verbalize it they have to face how unfair it would truly be.

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Rockets after 50 years of open air improsment, ethinic cleansing and 50 years of holocaust on Palestinians, rockets after that is no where near appropriate!

Don't Palestinians outnumber Israelis? Rather poor result of a holocaust.

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Any overtures of peace are a joke when a pseudo-state blatantly indoctrinates children to hate. How many Mickey Hamas episodes does it take to make a brain-washed hater for life? Careful what you wish for, it may blow up in your face.

Random rockets and bus bombings are indiscriminate terror weapons. Trying to hide and set up command-and-control or launch sites near civilians to dissuade attack and/or use the subsequent civilian casualties as some sick political bargaining chip is sad.

I got a 'you're so ugly' joke...You're so ugly you have to wear a mask to a press conference. :ph34r:

All sides should try to avoid civilian casualties at all costs. If I was going to set up a business there I would go for white dove and olive branch production. I see a great need there.

Edited by Dan'O

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Don't Palestinians outnumber Israelis? Rather poor result of a holocaust.

Um, 46% of Palestinians combined in both the West Bank and Gaza are refugees and required assisted aid and food.

689,000 of 2.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank are refugees.

1.1 of 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are refugees.

And that is not even touching the millions living in refugees camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc.

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Um, 46% of Palestinians combined in both the West Bank and Gaza are refugees and required assisted aid and food.

689,000 of 2.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank are refugees.

1.1 of 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are refugees.

And that is not even touching the millions living in refugees camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc.

Holocaust is by definition the destruction of massive numbers of people. Respectfully, Bug, the fact that the Palestinians have maintained themselves as refugees for 6 decades due to their refusal to negotiate any settlement that does not give them all the land that Israel sits on, as well as being prolific breeders, does not make an argument FOR their being holocaust victims. The increase in population since '48 rather argues against such a claim. Technically a holocaust has to do with a population being destroyed by fire - "completely burnt up". If the Palestinian/Israeli issue isn't settled, I think the entire region will refresh everyone's memory of what that term truly means someday.

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Respectfully, Bug, the fact that the Palestinians have maintained themselves as refugees for 6 decades due to their refusal to negotiate any settlement that does not give them all the land that Israel sits on, as well as being prolific breeders, does not make an argument FOR their being holocaust victims.

Where do you get "all the land" from? And how does Eretz Israel and settlements translate to you? Talking about calling the kettle black....

Furthermore, Israel has never negotiated any thing worth settling for... completely autonomous and viable Palestinian government and the dismantling of settlements on occupied lands...

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Where do you get "all the land" from? And how does Eretz Israel and settlements translate to you? Talking about calling the kettle black....

Furthermore, Israel has never negotiated any thing worth settling for... completely autonomous and viable Palestinian government and the dismantling of settlements on occupied lands...

"All the land" is obvious in the formation of the PLO in 1964. The purpose was to "liberate" Palestine, no? Three full years before Israel occupied Gaza or the WB. This is why it will never end short of one side completely destroying the other and forcing them off the land. Both sides want it all but I believe that the population of the western style democracy that IS Israel would compromise for peace. And they would restrain the radical elements within the society to get it. There is no such group on the Palestinian side. So the war is coming. Edited by and then

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Um, 46% of Palestinians combined in both the West Bank and Gaza are refugees and required assisted aid and food.

689,000 of 2.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank are refugees.

1.1 of 1.5 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are refugees.

And that is not even touching the millions living in refugees camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, etc.

There's around 6 million Jews in Israel and around 1.6 million Arabs. Throw in those in Gaza and the West Bank you get 5.5 million Arabs to 6 million Jews. And then as you say there's refugees in other nations, around 5 million. So 10.5 million Arabs vs 6 million Israelis. The Palestinians should be living better lives but holocaust? Not even close.

Hmm...seems refugee total also includes those in Palestinian territory. So let's cut off a few million and say there's about 8.5 million Palestinians in the general area. And I believe that population is rising. So if Israel is out to destroy the Palestinian people they're doing a horrible job of it.

Edited by Corp

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There's around 6 million Jews in Israel and around 1.6 million Arabs. Throw in those in Gaza and the West Bank you get 5.5 million Arabs to 6 million Jews. And then as you say there's refugees in other nations, around 5 million. So 10.5 million Arabs vs 6 million Israelis. The Palestinians should be living better lives but holocaust? Not even close.

Hmm...seems refugee total also includes those in Palestinian territory. So let's cut off a few million and say there's about 8.5 million Palestinians in the general area. And I believe that population is rising. So if Israel is out to destroy the Palestinian people they're doing a horrible job of it.

No but Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. They are forcing the Palestinians to lead marginalized existances in refugee camps and under military occupation.

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"All the land" is obvious in the formation of the PLO in 1964. The purpose was to "liberate" Palestine, no? Three full years before Israel occupied Gaza or the WB. This is why it will never end short of one side completely destroying the other and forcing them off the land. Both sides want it all but I believe that the population of the western style democracy that IS Israel would compromise for peace. And they would restrain the radical elements within the society to get it. There is no such group on the Palestinian side. So the war is coming.

Palestinians dont appreciate being marginalized and oppressed like ALL the rest of us wouldnt. What one calls terrorism another calls resistance.

Now dont take that out of context, I do not, I repeat do not condone terrorism. And I recommend not turning a blind eye to Israel's state terrorism.

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No but Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. They are forcing the Palestinians to lead marginalized existances in refugee camps and under military occupation.

To be brutally honest, Ramallah doesn't exactly look like the sort of refugee camp you'd find in Lebanon for instance. Or the Gaza Strip (which is more of a concentration camp than anything else, partly to do with the Gazans for electing Hamas in the first place and partly because of Israel's lack of mercy for people Bibi thinks are icky).

I can't imagine a Palestinian living in Lebanon and a Palestinian living in the West Bank would look at each other and say either one of them is better off, but at least people in the West Bank have access to their own health system and are actually allowed to go about their daily lives. Can't say the same about those Palestinians living in Lebanon.

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Since Israel empowered Hamas (some even claim created Hamas) to contend with the reviled PLO back in the day, it ought to man up and learn how to deal with what it asked for.

Expecting a high standard of living for Palestinian refugees in Lebanon is asking a lot when Lebanon can't even rebuild itself (heck, Lebanon can't even defend itself). How many years did it take Lebanon to get back on its feet before the last shooting war with Israel started? They've likely set themselves back another decade and that's without ridiculous blockades preventing the importation of building materials.

Even admitting Palestinians are living in other countries presupposes they're not living in their own. There's no such thing as a Palestinian without Palestine. They will be exterminated, and no, we don't have to have gas chambers in the middle of Europe to care about this extermination. This is the root of the problem many people including myself have with Israel. This obstruction and oppression of a people who pray to a different God or wear a different skin tone or carry a different tradition makes the hatred, revenge, and the neverending cycle of violence over there not only possible but guaranteed. Oh, but it also allows the settlements (i.e. the inevitable annexation of the territory once it's settled on and developed enough) so that's okay? Pfft.

I don't need a "Holocaust" of the kind that Nazi Germany put out to stop supporting Nazi Germany; and I don't need it here either.

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