What Happened to SS Gen. Hans Kammler?

[TheMacGuffin]

He's probably dead just like all the others. Interesting topic, MacGuffin.

If they really were working on this "Bell" (Glocke) I wonder if it was some kind of bomb. That would be in line with the rest of Kammler's projects like jets, missiles and other weapons.

Or maybe it was some kind of engine or nuclear reactor. It seems like they will willing to try just about anything, and some of their inventions were very advanced. At that time, Kammler's group had even invented the most advanced computer in the world that was years ahead of the machines anyone else had.

[TheMacGuffin]

Kammler reminds me of the chemist Dr. Pannwitz, described by Primo Levi in his book If This is a Man. Pannwitz was tall, blond-haired and blue-eyed, in change of a division of the I.G. Farben company at Auschwitz. As a young prisoner, Levi was brought into his office because he had studied chemistry and might be useful to the Germans.

He was never able to forget how Dr. Pannwitz looked at him:

"When he finished writing, he raised his eyes and looked at me…. That look was not one between two men; and if I had known how completely to explain the nature of that look, which came as if across the glass window of an aquarium between two beings who live in different worlds, I would also have explained the essence of the great insanity of the Third German Reich."

Pannwitz looked at him as if he was some kind of specimen in a lab that still might prove to be temporarily useful to the German war effort, and Levi then understood that no human communication of any kind was possible between them.

http://www.google.co...axhw3M5p5yAsqDA

Many years after the war, when Levi was working for a chemical in Italy, he happened to exchange some routine letters with a German company, whose representative as a Dr. L. Muller.

Something about the way Muller expressed himself in writing brought back certain memories, and then he recalled that this same Dr. Muller was also working for the IG Farben company at Auschwitz, and in fact was one of his bosses under Pannwitz.

So he wrote back to him and asked "What did you do during the war, Dr. Muller?"

Levi recalled that one day, Dr. Muller had given him a pair of shoes, which was quite an important gift in Auschwitz. Then he had asked him "Why do you look so perturbed?"

Those were words that Levi could never forget, any more than Dr. Pannwitz's stare. Why do you look so perturbed?

Muller denied knowing anything about the extermination and the gas chambers, and then started calling Levi and writing longer letters asking about what happened to this or that prisoner he had known in the camp, including some who had died in the forced march in 1945 when Auschwitz was evacuated. He wanted them to meet, and Levi realized that what he really wanted was "absolution", but that was not something that he was willing or able to grant.

He decided that Muller was just a sort of "gray" personality, not particularly good or evil, who was not only lying to him but also lying to himself.

http://www.google.co...Xq0OZliIUAso-hA

Edited December 2, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

Levi also recalled that one time, when he was newly-arrived at Auschwitz he was thirsty and grabbed an ice cycle that was hanging outside the barrack's window.

An SS guard saw this and knocked it out of his hand.

"Warum?", Levi aksed, "Why?"

"Hier ist kein warum", the SS man answered, "Here there is no why."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CD8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchronicle.com%2Farticle%2FHere-There-Is-a-Why-Primo%2F127574%2F&ei=9MS7ULaGFoqY9QTJl4DYAw&usg=AFQjCNFehx1t0cTSk8NkBnUmV8gZgAFqrg&sig2=XnGjUXnva9kDiHM5wTANgA

[TheMacGuffin]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

Good one! )

Yes, since he couldn't have built anything like that without sharing it with his beloved Fuhrer. That just wasn't done in Nazi Germany. None of these guys would have dared to do anything important if Hitler didn't know about it.

He was always checking up on all of them, too, whether they knew about it or not.

Edited December 3, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[Just Dave]

To make a long story short, in English it just says he was a big noise in the SS, involved in rockets, nuclear research, and some things that are still secret today. Rumored to have tried out flying saucer prototypes and other exotic technologies, and went missing after the war. Some rumors had it that he went to the US and was still there in the 1960s, but no one knows for certain.

It was no rumor, they had a working flying disc mounted with a couple of machine guns... i stored a few lines of text but you can find many more by simple search of " Thule society ".

Since 1935 the Thule Gesellschaft (Society) had been scouting for a remote, inconspicuous, underdeveloped

testing ground for such a craft. Thule found a location in Northwest Germany that was known as (or possibly

designated as) Hauneburg. At the establishment of this testing ground and facilities the SS E-IV unit simply

referred to the new Thule disc as a war product- the “H-Gerat” (Hauneburg Device).

They had them but i heard from someone here that the problem was they could only fly couple of meters above grounds, i am not sure of that since i never saw/red anything about how high could they go. At the time they were working on very exotic antigrav engine i think it never worked but the idea was nice, even more ambitious then nowdays.... imagine if hitler would prevail, we would probably be colonizing space 20-30 years ago!

[Just Dave]

One more thing where did the idea of the flying saucer design actualy came from,what insipired such a design,shape? Why such shape in time of war and in time where UFOs werent your everyday news headline? We know that shortly after the UFO sensation began. I went abit offtopic sorry but can't help it they had great ideas!

[TheMacGuffin]

One more thing where did the idea of the flying saucer design actualy came from,what insipired such a design,shape? Why such shape in time of war and in time where UFOs werent your everyday news headline? We know that shortly after the UFO sensation began. I went abit offtopic sorry but can't help it they had great ideas!

Possibly this circular airframe from 1911.

An early effort at disc-shaped design, the 'umbrella plane' of inventor Chance Vought. Whatever this design's merits may be, they lie more in the quantity of fabric and the quality of the joinery than in any sound application of aerodynamic principles. The aircraft, as far as we know, went nowhere; but Vought himself went on to produce a famous line of aircraft in the U.S.A..

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&tbo=d&biw=1280&bih=685&tbm=isch&tbnid=p8M901l0vnR8EM:&imgrefurl=http://discs.greyfalcon.us/&docid=G28xCNDELNTXdM&imgurl=http://greyfalcon.us/pictures/disc1911.jpg&w=640&h=271&ei=vTO8UMCgJ4rM9QTH0IGgCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=445&vpy=428&dur=1515&hovh=146&hovw=345&tx=144&ty=116&sig=114704889851551226570&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=283&start=0&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0,i:126

[TheMacGuffin]

Then there was Alfred Loedding, an engineer who saw a UFO in the early-1930s. Later he was at Wright Field and was involved in Project Paperclip with the German scientists, who supposedly gave him some information about flying saucers.

He was also in Project Sign and had concluded early on that some of the UFOs were extraterrestrial.

Leodding and some of the German scientists were testing flying saucer models in wind tunnels and things like that.

Alfred Loedding, as stated, had come to Wright Labs back in 1938 where he won a reputation as a brilliant technical innovator in the T-3 Engineering section. Loedding consulted on early UFO investigations not only because he was a leading authority on flying wing aircraft design, but he was also recognized as one of the few in the United States who had personal experience in rocketry. He had, in fact, become chief of the first Jet Propulsion Laboratory at Wright Field in 1940. In Loedding's resume he stated that while there, "I pioneered the work in rocket type engines ... I initiated and monitored all work that finally resulted in a modern and complete Jet Propulsion Laboratory in 1943."

After that Loedding went to work at the Armament Laboratory on the development of another project of his, the hydrobomb. The hydrobomb was a type of underwater rocket-propelled torpedo that was to be carried by aircraft for anti-ship warfare. While in this project Loedding served as the chief liaison with private contractors but apparently ran against military procedure in his work. As a result of that he resigned from the project in disgust with the wasteful management of time and resources that the military bureaucracy exhibited in its own efforts to develop weapons systems.

From August 1946 to May 1949 Loedding officially worked as the "Technical Assistant to the Chief of the Technical Analysis Division of MCI A." (MCIA was TID's WWII era predecessor which was called the Materiel Command Intelligence or MCI of | the Air Technical Service Command—forerunner to AMC. In this case Intelligence Analysis was called MCIA—A for Analysis.) During this time, aside from what would become an active job in UFO investigations, Loedding also supervised the offices of Guided Missiles and Foreign Industrial Facilities. It is unclear why, but although Loedding was technically employed by T-2 Intelligence then based at Patterson Field, he retained his office at Wright Field and may have still worked in some capacity for T-3 Engineering.

http://nicap.org/docs/loedd/loedd_chapter_6.htm

[TheMacGuffin]

Here's a web posting from one of Alfred Loedding's nephews, who says that his uncles work was so highly classified that much of it remains secret until now. He knew Robert Goddard, Wernher von Braun and many other missile pioneers.

He believed that some UFOs were spaceships and that others might literally be "space animals", having evolved or been designed to live in that environment. He dismissed the explanations of UFOs as "atmospheric phenomena" as part of the cover up.

According to Loedding, one of the things that caused Secretary of Defense James Forrestal's nervous breakdown was the fact that ETs were here and there was nothing they could do about it. He was the one who read Loedding's "Estimate of the Situation" which was supposedly never declassified but rather all copies were destroyed.

He said that all this helped drive Forrestal over the edge, to the point where he was found running up and down the halls shouting "we're being invaded and we can't stop it".

I have heard other people mention that over the years as well. What if it's all true?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimaginativeworlds.com%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3F21322-Alfred-Loedding-My-Uncle-Who-Officially-Doesn-t-Exist&ei=ln28UNWhCKfC0QGt9IH4BQ&usg=AFQjCNHCcFLrK-wt2FgMMVVeLOaxmFWMSQ&sig2=03xRfiP-QhVLdbM_AJi8Yw

[TheMacGuffin]

Loedding also thought that the nuclear tests kept attracting aliens, starting in 1945, and I have never doubted that.

The year 1952 was the biggest UFO wave of all, especially in the summer, and the first H-bomb test was on November 1st of that year. Test Mike.

[TheMacGuffin]

In the past, I always thought that Forrestal's crack up was more because he imagined the Russians were coming. That's the official version, anyway, but in the UFO business the official version is almost always a load of horse hockey.

[KUKAI]

I love the idea, and it would make a great sifi movie plot. That the Nazi Bell, Die Glocke, code name Chronos, which means "time" was indeed a time machine. Able to move space time around itself avoiding inertia in the process. Was workable and that Kammler escaped after removing all the witnesses he could. Advanced himself to the future to Kecksburg, Pennsylvania where in December 9, 1965, a fiery-trailed, brilliantly glowing object flew in a piloted manner and crashed landed in the woods. Perhaps he was picked up by the local military by chance or part of operation paper clip. Perhaps he escaped into the woods and hitchhiked his way across America.

Edited April 28, 2013 by KUKAI

[PersonFromPorlock]

The sad (for alternative history buffs) fact is that if the Germans had possessed any signifigant number of the 'wonder weapons' they are rumored to have had, they would have won the war. Put a ton of N-stoff aboard your Hannebu and visit Washington; who's gonna stop you? So there was nothing there, or nothing much.

Incidentally, high-ranking Germans lied to Hitler all the time. When the boss won't hear bad news, well, he doesn't, and the ambitious subordinate doesn't try to tell him: which is why Hitler spent his last month issuing orders to armies that had ceased to exist.

[Kaa-Tzik]

It cannot be proven, though I think it not beyond the bounds of possibility that Kammler was picked up by operation paperclip, but never disclosed. It is one thing to have Von Braun on the payroll as his SS membership was "soft", and he had a low rank. But Kammler was one of the most senior SS generals and responsible for designing Auschwitz. There are four, or five accounts of his death depending on which literature is read. None of them has any evidence behind them, and the one that seems most likely, death at the hands of Czech partisans, is only heresay based on a group of partisans saying they had killed some SS officers in the last days of the war, but they had no idea who it was they had killed. Of course this may actually be the truth, but there is so much mystery surrounding Kammler that there has to be a big question mark over his fate. If not killed by partisans then I would be prepared to believe that he was taken to America in the greatest secrecy, and that he worked for the Americans until they had no further use for him. If true, I doubt he was allowed to retire and die of old age. Too many records are still secret, and that the war ended 68 years ago shows there is damaging material against the allies still remaining. Why are the files on Rudolph Hess still secret? who, or what institution is still being protected by this secrecy.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[zeek wulfe]

It is believed that Kammler's scientists were working on the space/time concepts of the detested Jewish scientist, Albert Einstein. The so-called "bell" constructed in a remote part of Chezchoslovakia with a reported eerie blue/purple glow was nothing less than an attempt to build a machine using electro gravitics as a power source. Some of the more outlandish theories about Obergruppenfuhrer Hans Kammler is that this 'bell' was, in fact, a time machine. At the end of the war Kammler and one or two associates entered this bell, began a process of suspended animation, and after several centuries have passed, will return to animation. You say, '...that's crazy.' Could be, but remember, governments keeps secrets sometimes for decades and in the case of the United States and the United Kingdom, forever. Even now certain secrets from the American Civil War will never be released. A photograph of A. Lincoln in his casket was kept secret until the early 1950's. So it is possible that the US government (or the unelected elite that run the goverment) know what happened the Kammler.

[william joseph]

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

I hope you guys know that this whole "Die Glocke" thing is based solely on the writings of polish journalist Igor Witkowski, using supposedly "secret documents" as a source.

In short, apart from Igor Witkowski, there is absolutely no evidence that it ever existed !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Glocke

The whole thing about the German nuclear programme has been debunked countless times and im amazed that there are still people who believed that the Germans had nuclear weapons

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/germany/nuke.htm

The claims that the Nazi's had a wrking "flying saucer" is just ridiculus. Again no real evidence at all !

Sure the Nazi's had good scientists, but most of their "wunderwaffen" only became really useful after the Allied and the Soviets had developed them further.

I find it very distressing that there are so many people who seemingly wants the Nazi's to have been some kind of super scientists.

Why is it that people belive that ?

If the Nazi's really had those super advanced weapons systems, why were they totally defeated and occupied by the Allies and the Soviets ?

[scowl]

If the Nazi's really had those super advanced weapons systems, why were they totally defeated and occupied by the Allies and the Soviets ?

The excuse most popular on cable television programs is that Germany just ran out of time to build these systems. If they could have extended the war one more year, they would have bombed the allies' home countries with nuclear weapons launched from giant submarines and multiple stage rockets. They would have had swarms of jet planes flying circles around our clunky propeller fighters while eradicating our antiquated bombers from their skies. The shows I've seen have had spectacular graphics showing these attacks.

Another excuse is that crazy Hitler didn't understand that more development of superweapons was needed before they would have a measurable effect on the war. Instead he was happy flinging thousands of V-2 rockets at random British targets and didn't care about more advanced weapons.

But these exciting cable shows never mention what really happened after the war. It took several years for both the U.S. and the Soviet Union to make these systems practical. It's hard to believe that Germany would have had better luck.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

The excuse most popular on cable television programs is that Germany just ran out of time to build these systems. If they could have extended the war one more year, they would have bombed the allies' home countries with nuclear weapons launched from giant submarines and multiple stage rockets.

What many of these people seems to forget is that if the war lasted much longer, Germany would have been hit by several nuclear bombs.

The US had 3 ready by August 1945, and they had a further 3 per month, so before the year was out germany would have been hit by 12 nuclear bombs. (probably more, because production was slowed down after the war ended)

So bye-bye Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Nüremberg etc. !

On the ground the Allied and the Soviets were in the process of introducing a whole new generation of tanks, that would have been fully capable of overwhelming the Germans anyway. (T-44, IS-3, M-26 and the Centurion)

Even if the Germans had been able to make new super fighters, bombers, tanks and rockets, they didn't have any fuel for them !

Edited April 11, 2014 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[scowl]

Even if the Germans had been able to make new super fighters, bombers, tanks and rockets, they didn't have any fuel for them !

The jets and rockets were using alternate fuels and the superduperweapons would have allowed them to retake the Romanian oil fields.

William Shirer listed Germany's major shortages in "Berlin Diary" before he fled Europe. He mentioned one that I had never thought of: cotton. Armies tend to go through a lot of uniforms and Germany had absolutely no source of cotton for making new ones, and only had a small supply of wool for coats. Their soldiers had been reduced to wearing modified Polish and Czechoslovakian uniforms.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Weren't all the scientists in the Bell project killed?

I saw that on History, I think. Or is that just foolishness, too

[PersonFromPorlock]

Weren't all the scientists in the Bell project killed?

I saw that on History, I think. Or is that just foolishness, too

As Henry Ford presciently observed, "'History' is bunk."

[PersonFromPorlock]

To dispose of one suggested answer to the original question, Kammler was a civil engineer who seems to have been mostly an administrator. There would have been little purpose in bringing him to America when such types are common enough here. Maybe he was another Marion Groves, but Hell, we already had Marion Groves, and more like him besides.

[dr no]

To dispose of one suggested answer to the original question, Kammler was a civil engineer who seems to have been mostly an administrator. There would have been little purpose in bringing him to America when such types are common enough here. Maybe he was another Marion Groves, but Hell, we already had Marion Groves, and more like him besides.

Very true,for a time he worked under Albert Speer who was an architect who Hitler appointed in charge of war production.Kammler could've brought no technical scientific knowledge to the Americans.Of course its all academic as Die Glocke never existed

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

The jets and rockets were using alternate fuels and the superduperweapons would have allowed them to retake the Romanian oil fields.

William Shirer listed Germany's major shortages in "Berlin Diary" before he fled Europe. He mentioned one that I had never thought of: cotton. Armies tend to go through a lot of uniforms and Germany had absolutely no source of cotton for making new ones, and only had a small supply of wool for coats. Their soldiers had been reduced to wearing modified Polish and Czechoslovakian uniforms.

By 1944 their synthetic fuel plants were being destroyed and by august 1944 the Romanian oilfields were in Soviet hands and Romania has switched sides to the Allies. Even if the Germans had managed to recapture it, the Allied would just have bombed it again.

From the moment Hitlers plan to take the Kaukasus oilfields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Blau) failed, they had basically no chance of winning the war.

You might argue it was allready lost in december 1941 when the US entered the war and the Wehmacht was soundly defeated outside Moscow.