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notoverrated

Would knowing god existed really change.....

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The head in the sand route?

You can worship whomever you want. I won't. My life belongs to me.

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You can worship whomever you want. I won't. My life belongs to me.

You don't have to worship a god, you know? It's just a creator, behind it all. It would still be your creator, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I bet a large portion of people would find some reason to hate the god, label it evil, and create a new imaginary god to be the opposite of the real god.

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You don't have to worship a god, you know? It's just a creator, behind it all. It would still be your creator, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I bet a large portion of people would find some reason to hate the god, label it evil, and create a new imaginary god to be the opposite of the real god.

The point remains that there is no need for a creator. The laws of physics take care off all that for us. It's as close to a creator as there is likely to be. If there were something else, some god, for lack of a better term, that did turn out to be real, I would acknowledge it, but that would be the extent of it. I would not worship it or any other such silly activity. Nothing would change for me. The universe would still continue on, bound by those same laws of physics.

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Yes if I knew absolutely for certain that there was a God and life after death I wouldn't mourn the death of my loved ones so much. If I knew absolutely for certain that one day I was going to be reunited with all the loved ones I have lost over my lifetime death would cease to be the most emotional and powerful lesson in separation that it is.

The fear that we have is what causes us to have the emotional response that we do when someone we love dies. There is a very close connection to emotion and memory. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. Life has to be the way it is in order to imprint on the soul what it needs to learn while living in this Universe.

The soul is here simply to learn the things here that can't be learned in heaven.

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You don't have to worship a god, you know? It's just a creator, behind it all. It would still be your creator, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I bet a large portion of people would find some reason to hate the god, label it evil, and create a new imaginary god to be the opposite of the real god.

You are presupposing your view to be the 'real' one from the infinite choices.

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You are presupposing your view to be the 'real' one from the infinite choices.

I haven't stated my own view here. A god is a creator by definition. All else differs in views and religions, but the creator aspect remains the sole common factor between them all.

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It would have changed me if i thought he doesn't exist. I would have become EVIL! very EVIL! too bad he does, no?

People like you terrify me. I believe in you and common decency much more than you do, apparently.

I do good even if it costs me. I uphold justice even if its against me. I share my food with my enemies even if their next move is to hurt me.

I find it very odd that you consider this a mentality only found among theists. Are familiar with humanism at all?

I haven't stated my own view here. A god is a creator by definition. All else differs in views and religions, but the creator aspect remains the sole common factor between them all.

Um... no. This is not true in Greek, Roman, Hindu, Egyptian or other mythologies. Gods vary between being superhuman immortals to simply superhuman to creators.

be honest, if you knew for a fact that there was a god would you change anything?

Yes and no.

Certainly knowing he'd exist would change me. However I feel I'm on a good course for myself, and I can't change that. Certainly it'd depend on the god of course.

If it's the fellow from the OT, I'd have some serious points of contention I'd like to get answers on.

And if he asked me to kill someone, he'd have to make a good case for it.

If, for example, not killing homosexuals, letting my kids speak back, not putting aside those who'd leave me astray, ect, sent me to hell, well. So be it.

Edited by ShadowSot
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I haven't stated my own view here. A god is a creator by definition. All else differs in views and religions, but the creator aspect remains the sole common factor between them all.

"A god is a creator" already makes huge assumptions. There can be many gods, not all creators. There can be no gods. There can be an infinite amount of gods. There can be one god but he's not a creator. There can be hundreds of gods that each create a bit of reality. There can be trillions of gods that each create a trillionth of reality. Etc etc etc etc.

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There can be trillions of gods that each create a trillionth of reality.

Little gods, for creating quarks and hiding the Higgs Boson.

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People like you terrify me. I believe in you and common decency much more than you do, apparently.

[/background][/size][/font][/color]I find it very odd that you consider this a mentality only found among theists. Are familiar with humanism at all?

Um... no. This is not true in Greek, Roman, Hindu, Egyptian or other mythologies. Gods vary between being superhuman immortals to simply superhuman to creators.

I didn't appreciate the history lesson, but we all know that the OP is talking about a sole all powerful being behind the scenes, and most definitely not mythologies, which were symbolic metaphor. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

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"A god is a creator" already makes huge assumptions. There can be many gods, not all creators. There can be no gods. There can be an infinite amount of gods. There can be one god but he's not a creator. There can be hundreds of gods that each create a bit of reality. There can be trillions of gods that each create a trillionth of reality. Etc etc etc etc.

You're really reaching for some reason against me now and getting into extremely abstract territory, drifting from the OP.He mentioned god, not gods. I am only using the commonly accepted definition of a god, which you know will be found any and everywhere. I don't understand the poking.

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I didn't appreciate the history lesson, but we all know that the OP is talking about a sole all powerful being behind the scenes, and most definitely not mythologies, which were symbolic metaphor. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry, I do tend to blather. However you are not permitted to your own definitions of words. The OP did come across as being fairly Abrahamic in his presentation, that doesn't mean your statement that all gods are x is related to the ops statement however.

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People like you terrify me. I believe in you and common decency much more than you do, apparently.

[/background][/size][/font][/color]I find it very odd that you consider this a mentality only found among theists. Are familiar with humanism at all?

Um... no. This is not true in Greek, Roman, Hindu, Egyptian or other mythologies. Gods vary between being superhuman immortals to simply superhuman to creators.

Yes and no.

Certainly knowing he'd exist would change me. However I feel I'm on a good course for myself, and I can't change that. Certainly it'd depend on the god of course.

If it's the fellow from the OT, I'd have some serious points of contention I'd like to get answers on.

And if he asked me to kill someone, he'd have to make a good case for it.

If, for example, not killing homosexuals, letting my kids speak back, not putting aside those who'd leave me astray, ect, sent me to hell, well. So be it.

You loose the sense of reality in words I'm sure there is so much difference between what you say & what is. Power corrupts. I never said i'm eviler than anyone here. its the circumstances that we are on that counts. Are you saying there is nothing in this world that can temps you? that you have never done any immoral act? that you are immune to power's corruption? Before saying anything know that's a big claim & you are not king arthur.

I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only. There is nothing beyond death for you. Nothing more valuable than matter. Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

Edited by C235
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You loose the sense of reality in words I'm sure there is so much difference between what you say & what is.

I'm certain my understanding of reality doesn't necessarily match up with reality. Just doing the best I can with the tools avalaible.

I never said i'm eviler than anyone here.

You stated without a god you would become as evil as possible. That doesn't exactly reflect well on your ability to decide right and wrong.

its the circumstances that we are on that counts

Of course, and the circumstances you are born into and find yourself in greatly affect what and how you believe in god/gods.

Are you saying there is nothing in this world that can temps you?

Of course there are things that tempt me.

that you have never done any immoral act?

To do otherwise would be to lie, and I have not claimed otherwise here at all. I have made mistakes that are still with me to this day that I will probably never forgive myself for. Small stuff, but it guides my actions in the future.

that you are immune to power's corruption?

No, but I have a good bunch of friends and my girlfriend who remind me I'm an idiot from the boonies when needed.

Before saying anything know that's a big claim & you are not king arthur.

Yeah, I'm not claiming to be a character of myths and legend. I'm not Captain America or Spiderman either. You seem to be under some sort of misconception here. No one is claiming atheists are paragons of moral virtue.

I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only.

Uh... no. My instincts are to promote and be part of society. Nowadays, that means all of humanity nearabouts.

There is nothing beyond death for you.

For my personal existence? Yeah.

However I leave behind the works I've done, the family I've raised, the jokes I've told and lives I've touched.

To want more seems to me to want more than your share.

Nothing more valuable than matter.

Eh?

Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

Yes, I move forward on love and mercy and hope for a better tomorrow.

My decency is ever expanding. And if I should somehow forget my sensibilities, there' a reason we have law and order should my friends not be there either.

Frankly, religious belief doesn't offer any protection from your concerns.

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I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only. There is nothing beyond death for you. Nothing more valuable than matter. Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

Now you're just being dramatic.

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I don't see how an atheist would go so far to preserve humanity. your instincts are for survival only. There is nothing beyond death for you. Nothing more valuable than matter. Are you simply moving forward based on emotions like love & mercy. If that's the case then your decency is more unstable than you think & your kind frightens me more than you know.

If beyond death is an uncertainty, it would be logical to make the best of this life.

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[/background][/size][/font][/color]I'm certain my understanding of reality doesn't necessarily match up with reality. Just doing the best I can with the tools avalaible.

[/background][/size][/font][/color]

You stated without a god you would become as evil as possible. That doesn't exactly reflect well on your ability to decide right and wrong.

Of course, and the circumstances you are born into and find yourself in greatly affect what and how you believe in god/gods.

Of course there are things that tempt me.

[/background][/size][/font][/color]To do otherwise would be to lie, and I have not claimed otherwise here at all. I have made mistakes that are still with me to this day that I will probably never forgive myself for. Small stuff, but it guides my actions in the future.

No, but I have a good bunch of friends and my girlfriend who remind me I'm an idiot from the boonies when needed.

Yeah, I'm not claiming to be a character of myths and legend. I'm not Captain America or Spiderman either. You seem to be under some sort of misconception here. No one is claiming atheists are paragons of moral virtue.

Uh... no. My instincts are to promote and be part of society. Nowadays, that means all of humanity nearabouts.

For my personal existence? Yeah.

However I leave behind the works I've done, the family I've raised, the jokes I've told and lives I've touched.

To want more seems to me to want more than your share.

[/background][/size][/font][/color]

Eh?

Yes, I move forward on love and mercy and hope for a better tomorrow.

My decency is ever expanding. And if I should somehow forget my sensibilities, there' a reason we have law and order should my friends not be there either.

Frankly, religious belief doesn't offer any protection from your concerns.

My states stands. Law & friends are a necessity for you. God is my friend. I don't trust your law & friends to always be there for everyone & you fear my God to be non-existence. I'm not religious either. Religion is long corrupted, or why would a person like you would choose to be an atheist. you do well to avoid it.

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be honest, if you knew for a fact that there was a god would you change anything? and how would it impact you. personaly i cant see to many changes in how i life my life if i knew for a fact that there was a god.

I'm guessing that maybe, on your deathbed, if you believe for a moment that Heaven does indeed exist, you'll be begging for forgiveness and swearing life-long allegiance to any religion that fits the bill.

Edited by Eldorado

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If beyond death is an uncertainty, it would be logical to make the best of this life.

That's correct logical thinking. Just look at the animal world, how they behave, without knowledge of God, they pursue their own goals of spreading their genes. But C235 has also good point about that, because without existence of God, it would make sense to be evil, in a way to be free to break the rules set upon him. And again, without God, there is no Good or Evil in it's true sense, because everyone does what he thinks is best for his life, even if it means enslaving others to work for him.

And just a little historical insight. There are a lot of ancient religions who claimed to receive "knowledge" from the gods. So every nation had their own divinities, but were taught that there exist "God Creator" but he is just busy elsewhere. And back in those days, the principle was simple: humans worship gods, and receive knowledge or power in return. It is interesting to see in modern world, that a lot of people worship Money out of same principle: it gives them knowledge and power in return.

Edited by Amalthe
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That's correct logical thinking. Just look at the animal world, how they behave, without knowledge of God, they pursue their own goals of spreading their genes. But C235 has also good point about that, because without existence of God, it would make sense to be evil, in a way to be free to break the rules set upon him. And again, without God, there is no Good or Evil in it's true sense, because everyone does what he thinks is best for his life, even if it means enslaving others to work for him.

You're obviously not thinking this out.

"It would make sense to be evil?" Can you imagine what such a world would be like? You're ignoring the biggest factor, consequences. The more power you seek, the bigger the target you become.

It's not hard and God doesn't even enter the equation.

When you've had God imposed on you, it can be quite difficult to separate morality from religion.

Edited by Rlyeh

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You're obviously not thinking this out.

"It would make sense to be evil?" Can you imagine what such a world would be like? You're ignoring the biggest factor, consequences. The more power you seek, the bigger the target you become.

By logical thinking i surely can imagine such a world. It would naturally organize itself in pyramidal scheme of power, where the Boss who is on top is the one who makes rules. Those who are less powerful than the Boss would take positions beneath him, where they would command those beneath them and so on. It is law of the Nature itself, forming a chain of food, or survival of the strongest, where strongest define the rules.

And history shows us that such system is not only possible, but was prevalent in the ancient time. Rulers were often tyrants who defined what is good and what is bad, who lives and who dies, and it worked just fine as long as they were alive and strong enough to maintain such system. It destabilized into anarchy only if the ruler died, but soon would reform with new ruler and so on. Even today, democracy as a system where all are truly equal before the Law is an exception, not a standard.

And logically thinking, when considering evolutionary principles, person being evil in therms of breaking the rules has great advantage over those who always play by the rules, so again I would go with C235, being evil is just plain better, as long as you can get away with it.

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By logical thinking i surely can imagine such a world. It would naturally organize itself in pyramidal scheme of power, where the Boss who is on top is the one who makes rules. Those who are less powerful than the Boss would take positions beneath him, where they would command those beneath them and so on.

And how would this come together? By magic?

Being evil usually doesn't grant you a myriad of followers.

It is law of the Nature itself, forming a chain of food, or survival of the strongest, where strongest define the rules.
In nature, even the strongest play by the rules (e.g, environmental, and genetic factors).
And history shows us that such system is not only possible, but was prevalent in the ancient time. Rulers were often tyrants who defined what is good and what is bad, who lives and who dies, and it worked just fine as long as they were alive and strong enough to maintain such system. It destabilized into anarchy only if the ruler died, but soon would reform with new ruler and so on. Even today, democracy as a system where all are truly equal before the Law is an exception, not a standard.
No, even rulers back then were usually smart enough to work out their power had limits. History is full of assassination attempts and revolutions when someone had enough.
And logically thinking, when considering evolutionary principles, person being evil in therms of breaking the rules has great advantage over those who always play by the rules, so again I would go with C235, being evil is just plain better, as long as you can get away with it.

Be evil as long as you can get away with it. So live on luck and in constant fear of being caught? I must have missed the better part. This is short term thinking. Compared to rulers who were expected appease the people isn't quite the same. Edited by Rlyeh
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Knowing that a god existed? Nah.

Knowing a specific god existed? Maybe.

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And how would this come together? By magic?

Being evil usually doesn't grant you a myriad of followers.

In nature, even the strongest play by the rules (e.g, environmental, and genetic factors).

No, even rulers back then were usually smart enough to work out their power had limits. History is full of assassination attempts and revolutions when someone had enough.

Be evil as long as you can get away with it. So live on luck and in constant fear of being caught? I must have missed the better part. This is short term thinking. Compared to rulers who were expected appease the people isn't quite the same.

Hm, I find it strange that you refuse to consider what is actually well known historical fact. Take any tyrant ruler in the history of the world as example, he rules by fear, and he has followers who enjoy such system because it also gives them power though fear. But anyway, your comparison with magic clearly shows me that you have no intention to be honest and use logic to oppose my standpoint, you just want to ridicule me.

In nature there are no rules of conduct. Genetic and environmental factors are not rules in this sense of discussion. If you consider some ground nature rules, like Newton law, or the size of habitat, then were all bound to these rules, but we were not discussing here about those rules.

Assassination attempts, that's true. But in democracy, ruling people are also getting killed, imagine that.

Smart tyrant would survive such attempts, as history has proven. But successful tyrant must be strongest and smartest and for him, there is no limit to his power, because HE makes the rules.

Why would he be afraid to get caught, when he IS the one who hunts? I don't understand why is ruler expected to appease people? I mean, you really didn't take into account any example from entire history of human societies??

This checking historical facts should be easy to accept, yet you either seem to not care or don't know. So either my understanding of what you are writing is completely wrong, either you're too biased to honestly accept logical thinking, just because my standpoint is different. In both cases, there is probably nothing more I can write to open your mind, so i guess, take care! ;)

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Hm, I find it strange that you refuse to consider what is actually well known historical fact. Take any tyrant ruler in the history of the world as example, he rules by fear, and he has followers who enjoy such system because it also gives them power though fear. But anyway, your comparison with magic clearly shows me that you have no intention to be honest and use logic to oppose my standpoint, you just want to ridicule me.

Instead of cherry picking history, why are you unable to keep with the real discussion of "evil is better"?

Your examples require the "evil" ruler to already hold some form of power. That shows power is better, not evil.

In nature there are no rules of conduct. Genetic and environmental factors are not rules in this sense of discussion. If you consider some ground nature rules, like Newton law, or the size of habitat, then were all bound to these rules, but we were not discussing here about those rules.
Hang on, you earlier said "It is law of the Nature itself, forming a chain of food, or survival of the strongest, where strongest define the rules."

So you're saying in nature, the strongest define the rules, however there are no rules in nature. That's a pretty glaring contradiction.

facepalm-1.gif

Edited by Rlyeh

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