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me-wonders

Hinduism and Aryan

133 posts in this topic

No it doesn't. Go back and read the entire article I linked in Post #66 again.

cormac

I cant read it because I have to sign up. But if not language support term IE then we must stop to use term IE because that whats IE is all about. :w00t:

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I cant read it because I have to sign up. But if not language support term IE then we must stop to use term IE because that whats IE is all about. :w00t:

Try here:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957.full?ijkey=9/I0UU0.eTrdQ&keytype=ref&siteid=sci

Look for Full Text PDF and right click going to "save target as", saving it to your computer. Happy reading.

cormac

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Since you have knowledge about genetics. What do you say on this picture.

R1a1a_distribution.png

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Since you have knowledge about genetics. What do you say on this picture.

R1a1a_distribution.png

It's not as accurate or meaningful as this picture:

post-74391-0-68973000-1354140241_thumb.j

http://language.cs.auckland.ac.nz/

cormac

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I posted picture of Haplogroup R1a1a spread in euroasia. Its interesting isnt? In your picture I didnt notice that is R1a1a spread in euroasia. Is it?

Edited by the L

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Here is what wiki say about Kurgan hypothesis.The Kurgan model is the most widely accepted scenario of Indo-European origins.(Mallroy 1989 and Strazny 2000)

IE_expansion.png

Look this chariot spread.

Chariot_spread.png

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Also if Anatolia hypothesis is true, how come that they spread so lately in fertile Mesopotamia and around? Why would one avoid it? If they are pecafull...If I was IE and live in Anatolia my first expansion would be Mesopotamia. It doesnt make sense. Too many holes.

Hobbes is against it.

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I posted picture of Haplogroup R1a1a spread in euroasia. Its interesting isnt? In your picture I didnt notice that is R1a1a spread in euroasia. Is it?

It's the spread of IE languages, which in your Wiki link was being used in connection with R1a1a to (incorrectly) validate the Kurgan Hypothesis. If you'll notice, my picture is a more refined version of your while showing the outward spread of IE. All of which eliminates the need for the Kurgan Hypothesis.

cormac

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M. Gimbutas (1991), "The discontinuity of the Varna, Karanovo, Vinča and Lengyel cultures in their main territories and the large scale population shifts to the north and northwest are indirect evidence of a catastrophe of such proportions that cannot be explained by possible climatic change, land exhaustion, or epidemics (for which there is no evidence in the second half of the 5th millennium B.C.). Direct evidence of the incursion of horse-riding warriors is found, not only in single burials of males under barrows, but in the emergence of a whole complex of Kurgan cultural traits."

It's the spread of IE languages, which in your Wiki link was being used in connection with R1a1a to (incorrectly) validate the Kurgan Hypothesis. If you'll notice, my picture is a more refined version of your while showing the outward spread of IE. All of which eliminates the need for the Kurgan Hypothesis.

cormac

Then why not Mesopotamia first? (post 82)

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cormac do you think that Aryans were noble and peacefull?

Do you think that proto Indo Europeans were peacefull, noble savages?

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Also how do you explain same Gods in IE people? India and Slavic countries and not in Anatolia. In north europe and India and not in Anatolia. Strange isnt?

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Here is what wiki say about Kurgan hypothesis.The Kurgan model is the most widely accepted scenario of Indo-European origins.(Mallroy 1989 and Strazny 2000)

IE_expansion.png

Look this chariot spread.

Chariot_spread.png

The second picture is incorrect as the earliest Hittite mention of chariots dates earlier to the 17th/18th century BC, making it older than the claim on your picture. Also, the earliest evidence for chariots in China (Shang Dynasty) dates to the 12th century and not the 16th century as appears on the wiki picture.

cormac

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M. Gimbutas (1991), "The discontinuity of the Varna, Karanovo, Vinča and Lengyel cultures in their main territories and the large scale population shifts to the north and northwest are indirect evidence of a catastrophe of such proportions that cannot be explained by possible climatic change, land exhaustion, or epidemics (for which there is no evidence in the second half of the 5th millennium B.C.). Direct evidence of the incursion of horse-riding warriors is found, not only in single burials of males under barrows, but in the emergence of a whole complex of Kurgan cultural traits."

Then why not Mesopotamia first? (post 82)

It spread in two directions, east across the Fertile Crescent and west across Greece and the Balkan countries, at about the same time. With the exception of the Sumerian language the rest were Indo-European.

cormac

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Also how do you explain same Gods in IE people? India and Slavic countries and not in Anatolia. In north europe and India and not in Anatolia. Strange isnt?

Similarities, which is quite often what's seen by people claiming 'same Gods' is not the same as an actual connection. A good example is the Greek peoples attempting to equate their deities with those of Egypt. In their case it was because Egypt carried the greater antiquity as a civilization and they wanted to associate themselves as being a part of that.

cormac

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cormac do you think that Aryans were noble and peacefull?

Do you think that proto Indo Europeans were peacefull, noble savages?

I don't know about 'noble' but peaceful, perhaps. There's definitely no evidence of any sort of "invasion" meaning an incoming peoples forcing themselves, primarily through war, on more indigenous peoples.

cormac

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I doubt that Slavs tried to equate their deities with those of India.

Perun and Brahma -Four faced Gods.

2qtb9g8.jpg

25exj7o.jpg

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Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic Mithra.

Wheres Anatolia there?

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Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god is worshiped by IE. IE also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic Mithra.

Wheres Anatolia there?

You're reading more into these various gods than is evidenced. Yes, there are going to be similarities. Humans throughout time were experiencing much the same things in nature and were developing explanations for same. But you're also mangling timeframes for these deities in order to imply a connection that doesn't exist. Again, similarites don't equate to a connection.

cormac

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Indra Thor Perun and Zeus are same Gods but different names. You are wrong. There are connections.

Anyway how come that people in Anatolia didnt throughout time experienced much the same things in nature and developed explanations for same such as people in India and Europe?

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Indra Thor Perun and Zeus are same Gods but different names. You are wrong. There are connections.

Anyway how come that people in Anatolia didnt throughout time experienced much the same things in nature and developed explanations for same such as people in India and Europe?

Claiming they're the same gods doesn't make them the same gods.

They did, but they were a more localized peoples whose religious beliefs weren't distributed over a much larger area such as those of the Greeks, Scandinavians or Indians.

cormac

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Cormie what do you think about those people with R1a1a Haplogroup in circle which I add?

ap8900.jpg

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You are sounding like a record stuck in a grove. I have a child to watch and have to sign out, but here is an explanation of genetics and the caste system that might meet your standards? At least everyone else can see there is disagreement with the position you have taken. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/11/6/994.full
Methinks i thinks that you got the whole migration concept in reverse.Modern and upto date facts are supporting the converse of the theory you put forward,i.e Out of India Theory,you might like to check it out.

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Cormie what do you think about those people with R1a1a Haplogroup in circle which I add?

ap8900.jpg

What about it? It's located in Upper Mesopotamia and nowhere near the area relevant to the Kurgan Hypothesis you keep going on about. Nor, as seen by its shade, is it an origin point for either European or Indian R1a1a. At best it's a migrational remnant.

cormac

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Could it be Mitanni?

In 2300 BC Hurrian kingdom was on north of Akkadian empire. West of Elam. After Hittites push Babylon/Amorites to the end people in north gather under one ruler. Those Hurrian people which had have isolated language were overhelmed by Indo Aryan ruling class-Mitanni or "nhrn" /Naharin as Egyptians called them. Hurrian people spoke Hurro Urartian language not semitic or IE. Mitanni ruled from 1500 – 1300 BC. 200 years which is a lot and suddenly disappear due Hittites and as dot on i was Assyrian conquest. When Mitanni were on their zenith they border with Hittites in west,with Assyrians in east and with Egyptians in south. Beyond Assyrian land on east were Guttians. One more people which disappear from history similar to Mitannies. Their capital Waššukanni we still didnt found we only suggests thats near Khabur river. Waššukanni was first destroyed by Hittites under Suppiluliumas I then came all mighty Assyrians. First Mitanni were competing with Egyptians but soon they realize that they both share same enemies - Hittites. Its interesting that they worship Indo European Gods such as Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god. They also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic Mithra. Mitanni were powerfull people during those 200 years. They conquered Canaanites and beat Egyptians around todays Syria. Later they allied with Egyptians and Mitanni King Shuttarna daughter Gilu Hepa was married to Pharaoh Amenhotep III.But when Shuttarna died Egypt change politic. Hittites and Assyrians become stronger. Mitanni have bad luck that they libed in time of Suppiluliuma I and Assyrians. They were in sandwich. Then first Hittites take their capital and then came first real conquerers in history-Assyrians. Hittites didnt last much longer from 1650 to 1209 BC due combination of factors but their decline was pushed foward by Assyrians too. Which in the end conquer Canaanites, Hebrews and Egyptians. Assyrians simply conquered all.

440px-Moyen_Orient_Amarna_1.svg.png

newkingdomegypt036za.preview.jpg

Its clear how Mitanni fell but no one knows how they rise. From where did they come? Was it invasion? So its around time when Aryans came. Maybe those two events are connected.

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Could it be Mitanni?

In 2300 BC Hurrian kingdom was on north of Akkadian empire. West of Elam. After Hittites push Babylon/Amorites to the end people in north gather under one ruler. Those Hurrian people which had have isolated language were overhelmed by Indo Aryan ruling class-Mitanni or "nhrn" /Naharin as Egyptians called them. Hurrian people spoke Hurro Urartian language not semitic or IE. Mitanni ruled from 1500 – 1300 BC. 200 years which is a lot and suddenly disappear due Hittites and as dot on i was Assyrian conquest. When Mitanni were on their zenith they border with Hittites in west,with Assyrians in east and with Egyptians in south. Beyond Assyrian land on east were Guttians. One more people which disappear from history similar to Mitannies. Their capital Waššukanni we still didnt found we only suggests thats near Khabur river. Waššukanni was first destroyed by Hittites under Suppiluliumas I then came all mighty Assyrians. First Mitanni were competing with Egyptians but soon they realize that they both share same enemies - Hittites. Its interesting that they worship Indo European Gods such as Indra which is now worshiped by Hinduists. Its in fact Perun, Thor, Zeus. Also Varuna water god. They also believed in Zoroastrianisms/Budhists/Vedic Mithra. Mitanni were powerfull people during those 200 years. They conquered Canaanites and beat Egyptians around todays Syria. Later they allied with Egyptians and Mitanni King Shuttarna daughter Gilu Hepa was married to Pharaoh Amenhotep III.But when Shuttarna died Egypt change politic. Hittites and Assyrians become stronger. Mitanni have bad luck that they libed in time of Suppiluliuma I and Assyrians. They were in sandwich. Then first Hittites take their capital and then came first real conquerers in history-Assyrians. Hittites didnt last much longer from 1650 to 1209 BC due combination of factors but their decline was pushed foward by Assyrians too. Which in the end conquer Canaanites, Hebrews and Egyptians. Assyrians simply conquered all.

440px-Moyen_Orient_Amarna_1.svg.png

~SNIP~

It would be the right general area, but again that wouldn't make it an origin point.

cormac

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