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susieice

Titanic's Last Secrets

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Britannic couldn't be mistaken for the Titanic or the Olympic. It was still in drydock and hadn't been launched yet. Just making sure. And yes, It was used as a hospital ship during WWI and was sunk by an explosion.

http://en.wikipedia..../HMHS_Britannic

No, never meant to suggest a 'switcheroo' occured. Just to suggest that 'Titanic's Last Secrets' haven't all been answered yet. :)

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Not at all. With the entire debris field mapped now, there will be a lot more studying done. The book, Titanic's Last Secret, is the 2005 expedition which found the 2 sections of the double hull and kind of pointed the way to where the rest of the wreckage would be. The thesis of the book has already been proven wrong. They concluded the ship grounded on the iceberg and ripped the bottom hull. Ballard saw the large blips in 1985 but never explored it. No one did. Everyone went to the bow and stern. Now the whole missing middle section where the breakup occurred has been found to the east of the stern. In large pieces. Much more to learn and questions to answer.

Edited by susieice

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I hope the OP doesn't mind me passing on this fascinating story....that it's not too far off topic.

Ballard wanted to find the wreck of the Titanic; as an oceanographer and geologist, he said it was his Mt. Everest.

He was formerly a commander in the US Navy, and he approached the Admiral about the idea of locating the Titanic...hoping the Navy would fund an expedition.

Ballard had technology that the Navy hadn't; the Navy used sonar- which can't distinguish between objects, and Ballard's camera (called Argo) could.

The Admiral wasn't interested in the Titanic, but did want Ballard to do something for the Navy, and that was to explore the wrecks of two Nuclear Subs- the Thresher and the Scorpion.

So, Ballard made a deal with the Admiral; he would go on what was this top secret mission to those two wrecks, and his expedition to locate the Titanic would be the cover story!

The Navy had already investigated these wrecks, but had been limited in their technology.

They knew what happened to Thresher, and it's a very tragic story. In 1963, 129 lives were lost when it imploded after reaching it's "crush depth". There had been a leak discovered in the engine room which couldn't be stopped and it worsened and eventually caused a loss of power and battery power wasn't enough to sustain it and it fell to a fetal depth

The Navy wanted to visit the site to be sure that no one had been poking around. The Admiral said " The ocean is littered with interesting intelligence, I can tell you."

Ballard was to locate the nuclear thing (sorry) to see that it was there and that it wasn't a harm to the environment. (He did, and it wasn't.)

The Navy wasn't sure about the Scorpion (1968)...they only knew that it had imploded after dropping below it's crush depth. There was speculation by some that it was torpedoed, or that it's own torpedo had malfunctioned and activated. (There's a term for that I don't remember.)

Ballard's examination of the site revealed that neither of those things occurred, so it's still a mystery as to why the sub went below crush depth.

99 lives were lost.

When Ballard was searching for these wrecks, he first came across the debris fields.

That information gave him the idea that instead of looking for the Titanic, "look for it's trail", which he knew would be to the south of the wreck because of the current.

He mapped out an area of 30 square miles and made sweeps a mile apart.

What had taken others months... and they never did find it, took Ballard only nine days.

Of course, he was elated because he'd found the wreck- but he was also very much relieved because he was afforded only fourteen days in which to do it!

I should add that this info came from a program called "Titanic: Ballard's Secret Mission". It was on very recently...National Geographic Channel.

Edited by regi
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As for the "Swtich theory" between Olympic and Titanic... A simple internet search reveals this...

"In August of 1991, a team of explorers brought back proof from the wrecked Titanic to prove that it was indeed the Titanic. It seems that all of White Star Line's ships have a special symbol and number punched on all of the steel. After examining the hull the explorers saw the unmistakable number that clearly identified it as the Titanic. When they returned they released pictures and videos, which clearly dismissed this conspiracy."

http://library.think...26/SSwitch.html

Unless of course the CT's think that they while they were switching all the silverware, towels, linen, china, stationary and decorations, they also switched all the hull plates and structural members...

Edit to add:

Also at the time of Titanics sinking, The Olympic was 580 miles (930km) West and slightly south of Titanics position steaming EAST - returning from New York... So... how did they switch - and why would they if both were sea worthy?

Edited by Taun
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Exactly. All ships are given serial numbers, just like cars are. Those vin numbers are also put on different parts of the car as well and can be compared.

The Olympic changed course to help her sister but by the time she was 100 nautical miles away, the Carpathia told her they had picked up all the lifeboats and the Titanic was gone. Both ships. At sea. Same time. With passengers.

Wanted to add just because I'm so excited. Got the tickets for us to go to the 100th Anniversary Titanic Exhibit at the Franklin Institute. February 22nd. Can't wait!

Edited by susieice
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I hope the OP doesn't mind me passing on this fascinating story....that it's not too far off topic.

Ballard wanted to find the wreck of the Titanic; as an oceanographer and geologist, he said it was his Mt. Everest.

He was formerly a commander in the US Navy, and he approached the Admiral about the idea of locating the Titanic...hoping the Navy would fund an expedition.

Ballard had technology that the Navy hadn't; the Navy used sonar- which can't distinguish between objects, and Ballard's camera (called Argo) could.

The Admiral wasn't interested in the Titanic, but did want Ballard to do something for the Navy, and that was to explore the wrecks of two Nuclear Subs- the Thresher and the Scorpion.

So, Ballard made a deal with the Admiral; he would go on what was this top secret mission to those two wrecks, and his expedition to locate the Titanic would be the cover story!

The Navy had already investigated these wrecks, but had been limited in their technology.

They knew what happened to Thresher, and it's a very tragic story. In 1963, 129 lives were lost when it imploded after reaching it's "crush depth". There had been a leak discovered in the engine room which couldn't be stopped and it worsened and eventually caused a loss of power and battery power wasn't enough to sustain it and it fell to a fetal depth

The Navy wanted to visit the site to be sure that no one had been poking around. The Admiral said " The ocean is littered with interesting intelligence, I can tell you."

Ballard was to locate the nuclear thing (sorry) to see that it was there and that it wasn't a harm to the environment. (He did, and it wasn't.)

The Navy wasn't sure about the Scorpion (1968)...they only knew that it had imploded after dropping below it's crush depth. There was speculation by some that it was torpedoed, or that it's own torpedo had malfunctioned and activated. (There's a term for that I don't remember.)

Ballard's examination of the site revealed that neither of those things occurred, so it's still a mystery as to why the sub went below crush depth.

99 lives were lost.

When Ballard was searching for these wrecks, he first came across the debris fields.

That information gave him the idea that instead of looking for the Titanic, "look for it's trail", which he knew would be to the south of the wreck because of the current.

He mapped out an area of 30 square miles and made sweeps a mile apart.

What had taken others months... and they never did find it, took Ballard only nine days.

Of course, he was elated because he'd found the wreck- but he was also very much relieved because he was afforded only fourteen days in which to do it!

I should add that this info came from a program called "Titanic: Ballard's Secret Mission". It was on very recently...National Geographic Channel.

Thanks for the story. I saw several documentaries about Ballard and also read the book about the discovery. What was found on this last expedition put together all the final pieces so they can be studied. Wood's Hole, where Ballard sailed from, is also deeply involved with this, so I think Ballard probably is still in here also. Wonderful discoveries!

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Wanted to add just because I'm so excited. Got the tickets for us to go to the 100th Anniversary Titanic Exhibit at the Franklin Institute. February 22nd. Can't wait!

I can't wait either! You got tickets for us!

Hey Taun, I'll swing by and pick you and Regi up. You should tell everyone else!

Road trip! Hey Susie , does everyone need sleeping gear or you okay with that?

:)

Edited by Likely Guy
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I can't wait either! You got tickets for us!

Hey Taun, I'll swing by and pick you and Regi up. You should tell everyone else!

Road trip! Hey Susie , does everyone need sleeping gear or you okay with that?

:)

I'm already packing my jammies!... Just look for me by the side of the road... I'll be the only moose in the state wearing gloves!...

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I'm already packing my jammies!... Just look for me by the side of the road... I'll be the only moose in the state wearing gloves!...

There's more than one moose in Oklahoma? I didn't know that.(You got some gas money?)

Edit: A camel and a moose. Hey Taun, we just have to invite The Mule or it wouldn't be complete. I talked to Susie, she said that it's okay.

:)

Edited by Likely Guy
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I can't wait either! You got tickets for us!

Hey Taun, I'll swing by and pick you and Regi up. You should tell everyone else!

Road trip! Hey Susie , does everyone need sleeping gear or you okay with that?

:)

I'm ok with it! :yes: lol.

There's a group of us that enjoy traveling to the Institute. Saw Tut and Cleopatra there. None of us likes to drive in Philly, so we take a bus tour that drops us off in front of the museum and picks us up about 6-8 hours later. That way, we all get there together and we really have a good time. We get entrance to the exhibit, the audio tour (no live guides) and an imax. Would love to see an imax of the Titanic sinking. Hoping, hoping, hoping. Then we eat in the museum cafeteria and go to the other exhibits throughout the museum. Maybe we should just charter our own bus!

http://www.fi.edu/titanic/

Edited by susieice
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There's more than one moose in Oklahoma? I didn't know that.(You got some gas money?)

Edit: A camel and a moose. Hey Taun, we just have to invite The Mule or it wouldn't be complete. I talked to Susie, she said that it's okay.

:)

Well... there dang sure aren't any female mooses....or is it meeces?...

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[media=]

[/media]

Edited: Wanted to make sure this vid would work.

I decided to watch the vid about the second expedition I posted at the beginning of the thread again and found this one about the CT at the end. The vid has one of the ships' architects at Harland and Wolff (literally) talking about the differences in the two ships. It explains your ship numbers Taun. And compares the wreck to the plans.

In the end however, the Olympic does play the stunt double to her sister. Not under the Atlantic, as the CT claims, but on post-sinking newsreels, thousands of commemorative pictures and shot glasses and all other "souvenirs" sold after the tragedy.

Edited by susieice
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A U-boat did sink another White Star Line ship, the Lusitania.

Just to clarify, according to the book, Shipwrecks Of The Cunard Line, the Lusitania was of the Cunard line.

I just happened to have that as a library book...it's newly published...and I scanned through the thread to see if there was any mention of the Carpathia because I was very surprised to learn from the book that the Carpathia was hit by three torpedoes, if I ever knew that, I don't remember it. I've read a lot about the Titanic, and I would think if I'd ever read that about the Carpathia, that I'd remember it!

Info from the book is that in 1918, two torpedoes hit within 30 seconds, killing 5 crew members, and "just as the last were safely on the lifeboats a third torpedo struck the ship. The surviving 218 crew and 57 passengers were picked up by HMS Snowdrop, which fired several shots at the U-boat that was surfaced and then took the survivors back to Liverpool....A letter was later received from the Admirality stating that the discipline and organization on board the Carpathia had been of very high order, and that Captain Prothero was to be publicly commended in the London Gazette for recognition of his conduct in a crisis."

The wreck was found in Sept., 2000.

Id' like to pass this on from the book re: Carpathia's response to Titanic's SOS call, which was received at 12:25 am. "It was calculated that Carpathia was 58 miles from the Titanic and Captain Rosson ordered full speed towards the reported distress position. In order to provide additional steam for the engines the hot water supply was cut off to the passenger cabins and the Carpathia powered across the Atlantic faster than she had ever done before. However, when she arrived at the Titanic's last reported position at 4 am, the Titanic was nowhere to be seen. Soon the lifeboats were spotted and Carpathia took the 705 survivors on board."

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Yes, Lusitania was Cunard. Sorry about the mix-up.

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So confusing about who was buying up what ship lines and who was in charge of what. Cunard and White Star did combine, but I didn't research when.

Again, I was fortunate enough to find a book review on what I'm reading. Getting back to the original topic, you will need to scroll down to find where Andrews is on the Olympic and begins to find the sides panting much more than the ship should be. He reinforces the sides of Olympic and Titanic. After Olympic throws a propeller blade on it's way back from New York and shimmies badly, Andrews finds stress cracks on the bow, which he also takes action to reinforce on Olympic and Titanic. This is interesting in that the Titanic will hit the iceberg by the bow. Will need to continue reading. I know that while on Titanic, Andrews radios back changes in the plans of the Britannic but it has nothing to do with the ship itself. He's making changes to the deck layout. The link will take you to where the cracks are mentioned. You need to scroll up to find where the ship was panting.

http://books.google....ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg

Edited by susieice

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It's finally come. I go to Titanic tomorrow. Wow this thread was buried. I'm really anxious to see the videos of the current explorations of the wreck. There's supposed to be hi-def vids of what's happening now. I wonder if they'll mention the missing sections that were found. This should be very interesting. If Taun and Likely Guy still want to go, we leave at 6:45 AM.

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The titanic was an awesom ship its day iam a titanic buff.

When my brother was liveing in California in the 70s he helped this old lady and old man change there flat tire

And the women was on the titanic when she was a baby she passed away a few years ago

She had an odd name i forgot it her last name

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The exhibit was really good. The humanity of what happened hits you when you see all the personal things recovered from the wreck. Money, postcards, clothes, shoes, cosmetic containers and shaving utensils. We saw a lot of suitcases and the last room in the exhibit featured 8 people whose suitcases were found and some of the contents saved. None of the people who owned them survived. One was a perfume dealer and the bottles still had the smell of the fragrances they held. Some containers still held their contents. There were pans and dishes and eating utensils from all three classes. A few wine and champagne bottles that still had their contents. Also a container with cooking fat still inside. One of the pictures of the debris field that I would see a lot in books is the rows of dishes where the box had rotted and the dishes were still lined up. Those dishes were there. I saw one of the ship's telegraphs that sent orders to the engine room, one of the ship's whistles, one of the telephone boxes that was used to communicate with the bridge from the stern. It was found on the port side of the stern. They all had pictures of them as they were found in the debris field behind them. Wrought iron from the deck benches. They had recreated the Grand Staircase and had light fixtures and the base of one of the cherubs on display. Also a first class stateroom and the third class corridor. So much, over 300 artifacts in all. The Imax was a Keldysh dive to the wreck. That was pretty good too.

Overall, a worthwhile trip should you get a chance to see it.

Edited by susieice

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Okay so did you say that you went to see a film about what they recovered from the Titanic? i've been looking online hoping to see if it is a film, if I could see it somewhere in or around Portland. Any help here would be greatly appreciated! I'll admit, I've been a bit obsessed about this ship for a long while and I'd love to see it if it is in fact a film or exhibit.

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It's finally come. I go to Titanic tomorrow. Wow this thread was buried. I'm really anxious to see the videos of the current explorations of the wreck. There's supposed to be hi-def vids of what's happening now. I wonder if they'll mention the missing sections that were found. This should be very interesting. If Taun and Likely Guy still want to go, we leave at 6:45 AM.

There I was standing by the highway with my thumb out and a sign "Moose looking for Likely Guy"... Geez the looks I got....

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I went to a "Titanic Exhibit" this past November, in Las Vegas, at the Luxor hotel and casino. What "Susieice" describes above, sounds exactly like the exhibit that I saw!!!

They even have part of the actual hull of the Titanic on display, including one of the unused life boats!!! The reason that these "personal possessions", like

money and other "paper" items, along with clothing and other things that would've rotted away, were perserved in leather suitcases and bags and trunks!!!

Back then, leather was waterproof, they used a different "tanning" (i think that's what they call it), process, than they do today.

This is a really good exhibit!!!!! At the end, there is a wall, that has the names of everybody that was onboard, survivors are separated from the non-survivors.

The majority of the 3rd class passengers died that night, along with most of the crew!!!

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There I was standing by the highway with my thumb out and a sign "Moose looking for Likely Guy"... Geez the looks I got....

L.O.L I've just imagined a guy standing with thumb out, dressed in a Moose costume, with a sign looking for a nice chap, sorry its me.L.O.L.No Offence meant.Just as well a Cop didnt drive by,how would you explain it .
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Again, I found a book that has me a little intrigued. I've only started to read it, but it begins with the two men from Shadow Divers going down to the wreck of the Titanic in 2 of the Russian MIR submersibles and mapping a previously undocumented section of the wreck. What they found was 2 large pieces of Titanic's bottom double hull and it's bilge keels. The discovery of these sections changed the forensic evidence of how Titanic broke apart and sank on the night of April 15, 1912. They believe the ship broke apart on the surface and sank very rapidly. Titanic should have had a longer life span after striking the iceberg, but sank in less than 3 hours. I think this book will prove to be quite interesting.

Our cousin was a systems manager on Ballard's first exploration in 1985. I'll never forget seeing the first images of those tears of rust covering the hull of that ship, the "rusticles" as we affectionately coined them. I was too young to even understand what I was looking at but I remember the thrill and fascination from my older family members' reactions to what they were seeing. It's probably the most memorable day of my life from early childhood.

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I went to a "Titanic Exhibit" this past November, in Las Vegas, at the Luxor hotel and casino. What "Susieice" describes above, sounds exactly like the exhibit that I saw!!!

They even have part of the actual hull of the Titanic on display, including one of the unused life boats!!! The reason that these "personal possessions", like

money and other "paper" items, along with clothing and other things that would've rotted away, were perserved in leather suitcases and bags and trunks!!!

Back then, leather was waterproof, they used a different "tanning" (i think that's what they call it), process, than they do today.

This is a really good exhibit!!!!! At the end, there is a wall, that has the names of everybody that was onboard, survivors are separated from the non-survivors.

The majority of the 3rd class passengers died that night, along with most of the crew!!!

They didn't have a lifeboat or the hull section on display in Philly. One of the suitcases was covered so it wouldn't have direct light on it. It was really blackened. My boarding pass was a 3rd class woman with a 10 month old baby going to Virginia to meet her husband. We both survived. The film at the exhibit was just a look at the wreck. I was really disappointed. The Imax was a dive down to the wreck, which was ok. The best thing is for $25 to be used to help preserve the artifacts, I got a necklace with a cage locket, not a good chain, but inside the cage is a nice sized piece of coal with a certificate of authenticity that it came up from the Titanic debris field. Back at the time, that coal was one of the most valuable things on the ship. lol. I've been fascinated with Titanic since I was about 10 - 12 and read A Night To Remember. I've read and watched everything I could get my hands on. The closest I came to a vid showing the latest dives is the one I posted at the beginning of this thread.

It's funny because one of the things on display was a hand mirror and a hairbrush that no longer had it's bristles. I just thought of that scene in the movie where the older Rose looks at a mirror and says it looked just like it did the last time she saw it. Had to laugh because I'm sure this mirror didn't look anything like what it once did. Most of the artifacts had either black or green spots, in the case of metal, on them.

Edited by susieice
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I went to a "Titanic Exhibit" this past November, in Las Vegas, at the Luxor hotel and casino. What "Susieice" describes above, sounds exactly like the exhibit that I saw!!!

They even have part of the actual hull of the Titanic on display, including one of the unused life boats!!! The reason that these "personal possessions", like

money and other "paper" items, along with clothing and other things that would've rotted away, were perserved in leather suitcases and bags and trunks!!!

Back then, leather was waterproof, they used a different "tanning" (i think that's what they call it), process, than they do today.

This is a really good exhibit!!!!! At the end, there is a wall, that has the names of everybody that was onboard, survivors are separated from the non-survivors.

The majority of the 3rd class passengers died that night, along with most of the crew!!!

I saw that exhibition in Las Vegas as well. I walked and walked around the hull section, a small piece of the starboard side but such a huge piece of metal. There were about one million rivets used to put the Titanic together, all hand riveted except for those around the bow. The rivets are quite large and I just had to think about the hard manual labour put into the riveting by the gangs of 4.

There is no conspiracy about the sinking of the Titanic. Yes, I've read the books about how the Titanic and the Olympic were switched. Interesting theory but that's all it is. It's true that pretty much everything on the 2 ships were interchangeable. The only obvious physical difference between the 2 was the splashguard (in today's terms) along the 1st class promenade on the Titanic. Ismay had them installed after complaints from 1st class passengers on the Olympic about spray interrupting their sedate strolls.

However, you can't change the keel numbers given to the ships by Harland and Wolff, 400 for the Olympic, 401 for the Titanic. The Britannic would have been 402. When these books were written, Ballard had just found her. Obviously, no-one then and now can physically change these numbers. That, if nothing else, proves these rumors to be false.

The Olympic was scrapped for metal around 1935, I think. Hull number 400.

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