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TheProphetMark

Why God Won't Reveal Himself To Us

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God wanted us to fix these problems by ourselves because He can't be in our business to begin with.

Ah, so a being whom is omniscient, ominpotent and omnipresent can not be in our business to begin with? That is a very interesting statement. Also, I should like to address the former statement, wherein you assert knowledge of the intentions of this divine being. How do you know what he wants? How do you know that he wanted us to fix our problems? This is a baseless assumption. A being from another planet looking at our religion(s) would more-than-likely view the gods of the religion as being quite malevolent and nihilistic. It does not make sense for a being to create something so beautiful, only to sit back and watch us rip each other apart, and destroy the planet that he created... That seems quite sadistic to me. One would logically assume that any caring, loving being would step in to prevent all of these malicious events from occurring (such as war).

Also, the bible contradicts your former statement. For a being that can not be in our business, it certainly did not have any issues with advocating the raping of small children, the murderning of small children (both instances found in Numbers), and the treatment of women as "property".

The only thing I can say to the poor victims who die EVERY DAY is that now they no longer suffer the pain of this world.

Then why place us here to begin with, if he knew such pain would occur? I suppose the all-powerful god could not possibly know what we would do to one another.

For those who work hard into the ground, yet receive no sign? Simple. It hasn't come to them yet. Either that, or He placed help nearby and we haven't taken notice of it.

Then perhaps he should be a little more obvious, as the bible explicitly states, "Ask and ye shall receive".

Regardless, everyone deserves a chance in Heaven. Whether they believe in a God or not, as DarkWind said.

I would much rather be buried and feasted upon by meal worms than to be subjected to an eternity on a bunch of clouds.

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There are lot of "real decent people" out there who don't believe in god and a lot of real indecent people who do. I think the criteria is flawed. If you want to fill heaven with decent people shouldn't the criteria be they be decent people whether or not the believe in a god?

Perhaps it doesnt matter if they don't believe in god, as long as god believes in them. :innocent: Even in christian theology there will be a lot of people in heaven who never heard of the christian god, or had a chance to believe in him but were decent human beings. (eg those who lived before christ, or never encountered a christian, or young children) In christian theology god, like the egyptian gods, judges our heart and our mind.

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Firstly, you're presupposing the god of Abraham being the 'real' one from the infinite choices and the infinite possible motives for that god or those gods to 'want' us to be a certain way. Secondly, covered in a semi-recent thread, there is no way a god or gods could prove what they are. Lastly, I still haven't heard where people get the notion of the god of Abraham being a forgiving loving God. I presume you have never read the bible. The god depicted in the OT is cruel, flawed, violent, spiteful, jealous, makes one mistake after another, and demands unspeakable evil from his people.

Thats a warped perception of the OT. In my reading, god acts from love; like a person cutting out a cancer to allow the body to survive, or destroying evil to allow good to triumph. And sometimes to protect the people with whom he had a special covenant. That is how the stories were written and meant to be read. Your interpretation comes from a culture, values and times, more than 4000 years removed from the time of the OT

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What is a "fair" misconception?

Fair misconception is the one which is based on flawed or incomplete presentation of events in Bible. For instance look at Exodus 4:24. After God ordered Moses to deliver Hebrews from Egypt, something really, really strange happened on the way, it is written that God tried to kill Moses. I think only Moses will be able to explain one day what happened there.

So the Pharaoh could have prevented God from doing something?

God wanted Pharaoh to release Hebrews. That was his goal, and it would happen even after first or third miracle, if Pharaoh chose to do so. All other miracles wouldn't be used if Pharaoh was not so stubborn.

The fact that it states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart not simply that Pharaoh's heart hardened shows direct intervention, not a choice of free will.

Exactly what i was saying, it is written in Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but it is not literally true. God presented choices to Pharaoh, and Pharaoh decisions hardened his heart, because of his pride and stubbornness.

Edited by Amalthe

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Exactly what i was saying, it is written in Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but it is not literally true. God presented choices to Pharaoh, and Pharaoh decisions hardened his heart, because of his pride and stubbornness.

So what's written in the Bible is wrong, and what you say is what really happened.

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So what's written in the Bible is wrong, and what you say is what really happened.

Asi already said, one has to look at Bible as something written by people who had different understanding of things than we have. They did their best effort to describe what happened in that ancient time, but they couldn't resist "humanizing" God and giving him attributes that they would give to their parents. So in order to understand and correctly read Bible, one has to look at the spirit of the things written, not at the strict word, because there are a lot of errors and omissions, if you take Bible too literally. And remember, that's exactly why Jesus rebuked contemporary teachers, that they stick to the letter of the Law, and not to the Spirit of the Law.

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Asi already said, one has to look at Bible as something written by people who had different understanding of things than we have. They did their best effort to describe what happened in that ancient time, but they couldn't resist "humanizing" God and giving him attributes that they would give to their parents.

How do you know these foolish ancient people screwed up when the wrote these things and that your modern "correction" of their writings is correct when it's based on no new information? Personally, I trust the writings of these ancient people who lived closer to the times in which they were written over the reinterpretations of modern people, especially when these reinterpretations just happen to justify how they want to live in modern times.

So in order to understand and correctly read Bible, one has to look at the spirit of the things written, not at the strict word, because there are a lot of errors and omissions, if you take Bible too literally.

How else are you to take the Bible? There is verse after verse of perfectly understandable laws and commandments, many of them repeated over and over explaining exactly what you need to do to live a holy life. Someone who thinks they're following the "spirit" of these laws by breaking them is someone who doesn't believe in the Bible and should find some other religion.

And remember, that's exactly why Jesus rebuked contemporary teachers, that they stick to the letter of the Law, and not to the Spirit of the Law.

Where is that in the Bible? And why should I listen to some guy who didn't like to follow laws?

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Lets all look at the whole picture this way if you were a God and made this world and looked down on it at this moment in time would you want to talk to us. ? :innocent:

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I believe it's because God isn't so much a "himself" as an Everyself .. each self is a revelation of God to me. ..and everything.

I know it might not be exactly p.c. to have a personal or alternative view of God .. so .. excommunicate me er sumpthin? lol.

belief is sort of like love? both are acts of faith ?

Happy Thanksgiving :st

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How do you know these foolish ancient people screwed up when the wrote these things and that your modern "correction" of their writings is correct when it's based on no new information? Personally, I trust the writings of these ancient people who lived closer to the times in which they were written over the reinterpretations of modern people, especially when these reinterpretations just happen to justify how they want to live in modern times.

I wouldn't call it a "screw up", they did what was normal during these times. And what I am saying doesn't contradict what was written, I merely explain what the written words could mean. I only present alternative to general beliefs of atheists that it is NOT possible for God to be absolutely good and honest and not interfering with free will of men in case of Pharaoh. By this explanation, God didn't break Pharaohs will by literally hardening his heart. But at the end it's up to you to choose what to believe in.

How else are you to take the Bible? There is verse after verse of perfectly understandable laws and commandments, many of them repeated over and over explaining exactly what you need to do to live a holy life. Someone who thinks they're following the "spirit" of these laws by breaking them is someone who doesn't believe in the Bible and should find some other religion.

Where is that in the Bible? And why should I listen to some guy who didn't like to follow laws?

I'm afraid you miss a lot of aspect of New testament, and Christianity altogether, if you don't understand the antithesis of Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law. I suggest you look into wikipedia and then hopefully you will have more insight in the matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law#The_Bible

There are several examples from the Bible listed there too.

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I think many here have hit on the reason. If He removes doubt then there is no need for faith. And the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Over thinking on a subject that has no other answer than for one to believe or not seems useless to me. I am incapable of NOT believing and some here seem just as incapable of believing. I don't condemn them for it, I just don't understand their perspective. Maybe I'm not meant to just now.

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I wouldn't call it a "screw up", they did what was normal during these times.

Yes, screw up.

The Old Testament describes events in which God Himself gave clear and simple laws to the Israelites through Moses. Period! There is no interpretation involved whosoever. If you don't understand this, you do not understand the Old Testament. It is nearly legalistic in its precision.

And what I am saying doesn't contradict what was written, I merely explain what the written words could mean.

From the years I spent in Hebrew school, yes, you are contradicting what was written. There is room for interpretation where there is contradiction, but there is no general "spirit" of the law stated by God.

I only present alternative to general beliefs of atheists that it is NOT possible for God to be absolutely good and honest and not interfering with free will of men in case of Pharaoh. By this explanation, God didn't break Pharaohs will by literally hardening his heart. But at the end it's up to you to choose what to believe in.

I would chose what is written, not what people want to believe.

I'm afraid you miss a lot of aspect of New testament, and Christianity altogether, if you don't understand the antithesis of Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law. I suggest you look into wikipedia and then hopefully you will have more insight in the matter:

http://en.wikipedia....e_law#The_Bible

There are several examples from the Bible listed there too.

Actually there's only one example there (2 Corinthians 3:6) and the rest is a description of vague "spirit of the law" beliefs completely unsupported by references in the Bible and without any references (only guesses) as to how these new reinterpretations came about. I would recommend reading the Bible over Wikipedia.

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Lets all look at the whole picture this way if you were a God and made this world and looked down on it at this moment in time would you want to talk to us. ? :innocent:

Yes.

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Atheist would say 'God is God, if he wanted to communicate with us he could do so easily' but they never think to question why God doesn't work that way and now I think I know why he doesn't.

When I think of God, I think of God as somebody who doesn't want to make it too obvious to people that he is in fact 'real'. Why? Well, look at it this way. If he were to tell everybody on this planet that he is real that would completely defeat the purpose of his entire game so to speak. Why? Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him. God doesn't want those who 'act' he wants those who are actually 'real decent people' to enter his kingdom. That's why it all comes down to faith.

At least that's the way I see it and I didn't realize how hard it would be to put it in words and even the paragraph above hardly make sense of the point I'm trying to bring across. I'm sure you members are intelligent, so I trust you all to understand where I'm coming from.

It's like being a parent. Your child is bad, so you tell them if you be a good boy I will buy you a Xbox 360 next month so they act on their best behavior all month only to start acting up all over again straight after receiving their Xbox. I guess the analogy makes more sense.

I'm not a religious person but I do believe in God. I'm not perfect either and yes I'm a sinner through both thoughts and actions. Nobody is perfect but God loves all of us. As for the Bible, I believe in it but I also believe that it could have possibly been re-written so I look at the Bible as 'black and white with shades of gray', gray being the truth.

God isnt outside he is within.

Next time you have a deja-vu try connecting with that level of mind which is really deep down that you remember events from. That level of mind is God.

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God isnt outside he is within.

Next time you have a deja-vu try connecting with that level of mind which is really deep down that you remember events from. That level of mind is God.

In my experence god is both. He certainly "dwells' literally, within our body heart and mind, but he also "dwells" without us in the wider world This is how god can provide information which simply, is not, and cannot, be accesible to a mind that lives in an isolated organic host (our body) and has no telepathic contact with other minds past and present. Only through linking to gods mind outside of us, via gods mind within us, can we access the cosmic consciousnes and all the information that exists therein.

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"Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him."

People do this anyway. My consensus is that the reason a lot people go to church or 'Believe' is so they can escape damnation - I can guarantee you that if we were let into Paradise, Heaven, whatever the **** you want to call it, regardless of our earthly deeds then there would be a **** load more murder, rape, crime etc. Like it or not, there isn't many people in the world who put others before themselves, I will say now that I care about me more than anyone else - so what, sue me.

What is the message of the evangelicals and other street preachers or even the bible, Qur'an and Tanahk to non-believers 99% of the time? -Repent or suffer forever. The threat of damnation is planted and seeded into minds and fear takes hold of the people who believe in it - so how do we get out of it? by going to church or praising a god. Like I said above, people for the most part are only concerned about their own well being the most, unless it concerns family members etc. One example is - If you heard about someone who you never knew who had cancer or some other terminal disease, what would you feel, and I mean REALLY feel, not think you feel. Chances are, you don't feel **** all and would feel no concern. Sure it's sad, but not in a way that would make you want to cry or punch a wall. But, if you yourself were to get cancer, you would ,most likely feel concern and sadness because it's you in the noose now whereas before hand, someone else having cancer is, for the most part, of no concern.

Believe in a god, get to paradise, don't believe in a god, go to damnation - simple choice right? But then that's the thing, what sways the congregations into their choice, the hope for reward, or the love they have for their god? Judging from the human condition, I think we all know which one it is.

“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”

Albert Einstein

Edited by Sean93

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"Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him."

People do this anyway. My consensus is that the reason a lot people go to church or 'Believe' is so they can escape damnation - I can guarantee you that if we were let into Paradise, Heaven, whatever the **** you want to call it, regardless of our earthly deeds then there would be a **** load more murder, rape, crime etc. Like it or not, there isn't many people in the world who put others before themselves, I will say now that I care about me more than anyone else - so what, sue me.

What is the message of the evangelicals and other street preachers or even the bible, Qur'an and Tanahk to non-believers 99% of the time? -Repent or suffer forever. The threat of damnation is planted and seeded into minds and fear takes hold of the people who believe in it - so how do we get out of it? by going to church or praising a god. Like I said above, people for the most part are only concerned about their own well being the most, unless it concerns family members etc. One example is - If you heard about someone who you never knew who had cancer or some other terminal disease, what would you feel, and I mean REALLY feel, not think you feel. Chances are, you don't feel **** all and would feel no concern. Sure it's sad, but not in a way that would make you want to cry or punch a wall. But, if you yourself were to get cancer, you would ,most likely feel concern and sadness because it's you in the noose now whereas before hand, someone else having cancer is, for the most part, of no concern.

Believe in a god, get to paradise, don't believe in a god, go to damnation - simple choice right? But then that's the thing, what sways the congregations into their choice, the hope for reward, or the love they have for their god? Judging from the human condition, I think we all know which one it is.

“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”

Albert Einstein

I thin you are wholly wrong on this. People go to church, worship, and participate in religion because it makes them feel good, not really because they are afraid not to. I think the hellfire and brimstone preaching is just more unreasonable ways of elevating their own choices more than trying to scare people into believing.. Even if on the surface that's what it looks like. In the end it's really just a narcicistic persuit to make themselves feel higher than another. There are the rare few believers that legitimately care about people and want to save them from such a fate, and there are a rare few unsophisticated people that believe but don't like themselves do they fear hell and worship to try and clean themselves of self hatred, but by and large the whole "your going to hell and I'm not" or "hear let me save you" thing is just another attempt at raising ones own social status. Pretty typical human behavior.

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I thin you are wholly wrong on this. People go to church, worship, and participate in religion because it makes them feel good, not really because they are afraid not to. I think the hellfire and brimstone preaching is just more unreasonable ways of elevating their own choices more than trying to scare people into believing.. Even if on the surface that's what it looks like. In the end it's really just a narcicistic persuit to make themselves feel higher than another. There are the rare few believers that legitimately care about people and want to save them from such a fate, and there are a rare few unsophisticated people that believe but don't like themselves do they fear hell and worship to try and clean themselves of self hatred, but by and large the whole "your going to hell and I'm not" or "hear let me save you" thing is just another attempt at raising ones own social status. Pretty typical human behavior.

Fair enough man, whatever floats your ark.

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Interesting question that would make a lot of people think, even me. But I like to think God as a forgiving loving God. Those who do good deeds and are decent people regardless if they believe in God or not will earn a place in his kingdom. I don't see why God would throw them hell for not believing, not after everything that goes on in the World it's no wonder why people are skeptical.

And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

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And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

That's only the premise for some types of gods... Not all Religous people take their scripture literally. Holding up the fundamandalists in place of the moderates is fallacious.

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And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

Biblically, god has already forgiven every sin of mankind, individually and corporately. From there it is up to us to accept that forgiveness and act on it, living a life which minimises sin because we love god (or our fellow man).

If we can do that, god's forgiveness kicks in automatically and we are saved. If we knowingly continue to sin against god and other humans, and reject gods love and forgiveness, then we cause our own demise.

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Read most of the replies to this but sorry if i've missed this one but......perhaps because he doesn't exist!!

To use an old saying, 'if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck & looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck' i.e. the obvious answer is most likely the correct one.

Edited by itsnotoutthere

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Biblically, god has already forgiven every sin of mankind, individually and corporately. From there it is up to us to accept that forgiveness and act on it, living a life which minimises sin because we love god (or our fellow man).

If we can do that, god's forgiveness kicks in automatically and we are saved. If we knowingly continue to sin against god and other humans, and reject gods love and forgiveness, then we cause our own demise.

Would that apply to an atheist who is a good person? Because it is said "Those who believe in me shall never Die" If God see's an atheist who is a great human being, loving caring, kind, would he turn them away just because they did not profess a belief in him, despite their living a good life?

Obviously you can't really know but you seem like a Judeo-Christian believer so I'd like to hear you view on that.

Edited by Sean93

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