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TheProphetMark

Why God Won't Reveal Himself To Us

72 posts in this topic

Would that apply to an atheist who is a good person? Because it is said "Those who believe in me shall never Die" If God see's an atheist who is a great human being, loving caring, kind, would he turn them away just because they did not profess a belief in him, despite their living a good life?

Obviously you can't really know but you seem like a Judeo-Christian believer so I'd like to hear you view on that.

The only trouble with atheism is that it is active disbelief in god. While god can forgive an atheist anything, how can an atheist connect with god in the way needed to be saved. ? (in judaeo christian theology)

Personally (and only philosophically) i believe that there will be good atheists in heaven and good pagans muslims jews etc. The only people who wont be there will be people who are "unsafe' to allow into heaven because they do not have the qualities required to live there, or on the new earth. eg they will still have the human flaws which they refused to surrender, like anger hate etc. These people will actively refuse the saving and healing grace of christ and remain "too human" to be safe in heaven.Others who won't get to heaven (in theory) are people who remain actively hurtful hateful etc ie they remain unrepentant of the hurt they do, whether they are christians or never heard of christianity.

Theologically/philosophically and logically, based on christian teachings there will be many good loving people in heaven who never heard of the judaeo christian god. Who lived before worship of him was known, who lived outside of the spread of christianity, and young people who died never knowing god.

But a person who actively denies the existence of god? Thats a hard one How can they enter into a place and a relationship which they totally refuse to believe exists? In my experience, one can live with god in heaven on earth today, while still alive But this is impossible also for a human being who wont accepet the existence of god or the nature of heaven on earth. You cant live in a place, or a space, or with an entity, you cant see, or feel, or perceive as existing.

Edited by Mr Walker

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And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

That's not the whole premise of God and religion. That's only one of many. As for the OP, some schools of thought would say God is revealed to us everywhere in every second of every day.

Edited by MysticStrummer

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The only trouble with atheism is that it is active disbelief in god. While god can forgive an atheist anything, how can an atheist connect with god in the way needed to be saved. ? (in judaeo christian theology)

Personally (and only philosophically) i believe that there will be good atheists in heaven and good pagans muslims jews etc. The only people who wont be there will be people who are "unsafe' to allow into heaven because they do not have the qualities required to live there, or on the new earth. eg they will still have the human flaws which they refused to surrender, like anger hate etc. These people will actively refuse the saving and healing grace of christ and remain "too human" to be safe in heaven.Others who won't get to heaven (in theory) are people who remain actively hurtful hateful etc ie they remain unrepentant of the hurt they do, whether they are christians or never heard of christianity.

Theologically/philosophically and logically, based on christian teachings there will be many good loving people in heaven who never heard of the judaeo christian god. Who lived before worship of him was known, who lived outside of the spread of christianity, and young people who died never knowing god.

But a person who actively denies the existence of god? Thats a hard one How can they enter into a place and a relationship which they totally refuse to believe exists? In my experience, one can live with god in heaven on earth today, while still alive But this is impossible also for a human being who wont accepet the existence of god or the nature of heaven on earth. You cant live in a place, or a space, or with an entity, you cant see, or feel, or perceive as existing.

I get what your saying. Of course there always going to be people who just cannot believe in the Judeo Christian God, or any god/goddess for that mattter will and find it absurd no matter how much they try, the same way there are people who find it impossible for the Judeo Christian God to not exist.

The Judeo Christian God, Yahweh, holds as much water for me as Zeus or Thor or Apollo but that's not to say he/it/she does not exist, they might for sure but one thing I certainly don't take seriously is Religion, no thank you, human's are natural liers and Charltans and there is now way I'm putting my trust in one of the many 1000's of religious texts out there that have been through more men than an Afghani hooker, which in turn renders their gods almost defunct to me. Of course, unlike militiant atheist's, I prefer to admit that I may be wrong.

Edited by Sean93

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If we can do that, god's forgiveness kicks in automatically and we are saved. If we knowingly continue to sin against god and other humans, and reject gods love and forgiveness, then we cause our own demise.

Where can I find out more about sin so I won't do it?

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That's not the whole premise of God and religion. That's only one of many.

But it is the main one. Obedience to to God is paramount. If you don't do this, you burn in hell forever. No exceptions.

As for the OP, some schools of thought would say God is revealed to us everywhere in every second of every day.

I would like to hang around someone who sees God fifty thousand times every day.

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Where can I find out more about sin so I won't do it?

If you want the christian version, study the nature of sin as outlined in the bible.

To me sin is deliberately hurting yourself or another. Because i am in god and god is in me, and beacuse this is true for all humans; then hurting/limiting myself or another is hurting god. Hurting another is hurting me. hurting me is hurting humanity.

That includes deliberately limiting your own potential as a human being or limiting the potential of another person. Being destructive is a sin being constructive is not. Acting from hate and anger can be a sin acting from love is less likely to be. Thinking hateful hurtful thoughts is a sin because such thoughts and visualisations programme our brain to wards acting on them even if we never do. And the results of harmful thoughts are harmful, even when they are not acted on. They hurt and limit the person feeling and thinking them. The good thing though is that we all sin. The point is to do our best not to out of love for god and our fellow man, and when we do to make restitution, be truly sorry, and try our hardest not to repeat our mistakes.

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God won't reveal himself to us because he doesn't exist, or is ashamed of what he's done to us or is a really ugly b******!

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The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. It's in the "not knowing for certain" that generates the emotion needed to imprint on the soul the lessons it needs to learn. That is the reason life is the way it is.

The most emotional thing anyone can experience in this life is the death of someone they love. Nothing else comes close. If we knew for certain that there was a God and life after death and that one day we'd be reunited with them in Heaven we might not mourn as much and death would cease to be the powerful lesson it is in what it means and how it feels to be separate.

Heaven is the place of oneness and connectedness. So much so that it may be impossible to learn or know what it feels like to be separate, much as someone who has been assimilated into the Borg Collective (from Star Trek: Next Generation) loses their personal identity.

We come here to experience separation to teach the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate. Once the soul has learned that lesson, when it is finished, it is able to merge back into Heaven and not lose it's individuality. It's uniqueness. You are still you.

Life is one big long lesson in separation, from the moment you exit your mother's womb and the umbilical cord is cut in two till the day you die and our deaths become a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind.

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There are lot of "real decent people" out there who don't believe in god and a lot of real indecent people who do. I think the criteria is flawed. If you want to fill heaven with decent people shouldn't the criteria be they be decent people whether or not the believe in a god?

I think the entire perception above of heaven is flawed. It is essentially pagan in substance.

The early Jews believed that heaven was the reality expressedly manifest when God dwelled among His people.

The hope set forth in OT writings was that, with God dwelling among His people Israel, Israel would become a light to all the other nations and that they would put behind them all their evil practices and injustice. It could be said that they failed, and so God left them to their demise at the hands of the Babylonians. Since then, God's Spirit had not filled their temple.

After the second temple was rebuilt, God did not return until, as Christians claim, God entered the temple in the person of Jesus. Jesus taught and confirmed a new covenant with Israel by which God's Spirit filled the Church, the new temple, with His Spirit on Pentecost.

Thus Jesus' words, "The kingdom of God is near" were fulfilled. Heaven (God) had come to Israel and was spread out to all nations (through tongues on Pentecost.)

So why the Silence?

Revelation 12 makes it explicitly clear that Israel was going to cease to be a nation and that the times of the Gentiles would begin. This ministry is covered by the two witnesses in Revelation 11 and the scope of their ministry is to be those who:

"...keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus..." (Revelation 12:17)

Since Israel was dispersed by the Romans in 70 CE, the communication of God has been with His people, the Church through them keeping His commands and holding to their testimony of Jesus.

Before any jump to conclusions, please take note of Jesus parable of the wheat and the tares (the good seed and the bad seed) who are distinguished in time by their deeds:

He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, "Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?" He said to them, "An enemy has done this." So the servants said to him, "Then do you want us to go and gather them?" But he said, "No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn."" (Matthew 13:24-30 ESV)

Heaven is here now, and it is with the Church. But because of the false Church, it is hard to tell the difference. Here is a good way to tell:

1) The commandments of God are the teachings of Jesus. He fulfilled, reinterpreted, and expanded the commandments of God.

2) The testimony of Jesus is the loyalty to Jesus despite the negative repercussions given by those around us.

If you want to hear God speak, I recommend following the teachings of Jesus. If nobody has any disagreement that Jesus was a good man, then perhaps the fact that many don't practice his teachings is not sufficient evidence that God does not talk to people today.

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If you want the christian version, study the nature of sin as outlined in the bible.

No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

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If you want to hear God speak, I recommend following the teachings of Jesus. If nobody has any disagreement that Jesus was a good man, then perhaps the fact that many don't practice his teachings is not sufficient evidence that God does not talk to people today.

In Matthew 15:4, Jesus agreed with God that disobedient children should be killed.

Does this sound like a good man? Does this sound like a good god? Any god that tells me I'm obligated to kill my children when they get mad at me is a god I'm not going to listen to.

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No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

There is no one version. You'll look in vain because even among religious sects, there are internal squabbles and splinter groups that can't agree. It all comes down to what connects with you, what clicks with you I guess. For me? It's the universe and our unprivilaged position in it that drives me.

I don't see the point in asking another Human Being which faith or creed is the right one because they'll obviously give you their religion/creed/faith as the right one which subsequently leaves out the other thousand's. Go read for yourself and explore the world and it's faiths (if you really want to) and see if you can find an answer yourself.

Edited by Sean93

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No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

The Pharisees kept every single commandment.

Why, then, did they draw so much condemnation from Jesus? And why was their city and temple destroyed and their people sold as slaves to countries far away? If keeping the commandments is the way to heaven, why didn't they ever see it?

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In Matthew 15:4, Jesus agreed with God that disobedient children should be killed.

? That is not what Jesus was saying. You are picking one verse out and putting it to you own context.

What does the entire chapter say? You may find that your accusation is wrong.

Does this sound like a good man? Does this sound like a good god? Any god that tells me I'm obligated to kill my children when they get mad at me is a god I'm not going to listen to.

Again, read the entire chapter. In the chapter, the scribes asked Jesus why he lets his disciples break the commandments. To this Jesus states the fourth commandment and asks them why they make up traditions to get around it. The scribes dishonored their parents by taking their earnings and dedicating it to the service of God (called Corbin) and withholding what their parents may need. Why were they not killed according to the fourth commandment? Because they were hypocrites.

Jesus fulfilled the law and expanded it. He gave a new commandment: "Love thy neighbor as thyself," which wasn't really new at all.

"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord." (Leviticus 19:18 ESV)

Leviticus 19 is filled with really good commands. So good, in fact, it seems to be altogether an entirely different set of commandments.

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No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!

Then think and act on earth as you know you should ,if you would like to get into a heaven after death. Dont lie, cheat, stea,l hurt others, etc That includes cheating on our partner or wife, hurting yourself or others etc

jesus knew the commandments perfectly. He explained how he came to fulfil them. then he reformatted them reinforced them and made them even tougher to obey, saying all must be obeyed from love not fear or legalism.

That the commandments were made for men, not men for the commandments. He went on to say that sin begins in the heart and mind, and does not have to be acted out to be a sin. BUT, he explained how god forgives sin. How our human failings are washed away and cleansed by his blood, and how all we have to do is try to be good and to repent, make restitution, and then try not to sin again.

Plus, dont get too attached to the material world. The kingdom of god is a spiritual place within us, and one can't enter into it, if one is too tied to the material world.

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Then think and act on earth as you know you should ,

I know people in jail who've done that!

if you would like to get into a heaven after death. Dont lie, cheat, stea,l hurt others, etc That includes cheating on our partner or wife, hurting yourself or others etc

The Bible is full of heroes who were liars, cheaters and stealers. I don't understand that.

jesus knew the commandments perfectly.

No he didn't. When asked which commandments to follow in both Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:18, Jesus could only name five correctly. In these two versions of the story he came up with a sixth one ("Love thy neighbor") but that one had never been a commandment. To make things worse, in Mark 10:17, Jesus was quoted as saying yet another false commandment ("Defraud not"). This showed how little Jesus knew about God's teachings.

He explained how he came to fulfil them. then he reformatted them reinforced them and made them even tougher to obey, saying all must be obeyed from love not fear or legalism.

So if you love your wife, cheat on her. No need for legalism!

That the commandments were made for men, not men for the commandments. He went on to say that sin begins in the heart and mind, and does not have to be acted out to be a sin.

I can't find that anywhere. Are you just making this up? The Bible warns of false prophets and how they'll mislead people into sin.

BUT, he explained how god forgives sin. How our human failings are washed away and cleansed by his blood, and how all we have to do is try to be good and to repent, make restitution, and then try not to sin again.

I went through the Bible. Here's the list I've come up with so far:

  • Marry someone who is a Christian
  • Burn your possessions
  • Always be hungry.
  • Call on the name of the Lord (whatever that means)
  • Wait for Jesus to return since he's returning very soon.
  • Be tempted all the time but pass on temptation.
  • Just believe in Jesus, nothing else.
  • Get Baptised. Nothing else.
  • Do good works.
  • Don't do good works because they don't count.
  • Forsake all of your possessions.
  • Don't get married.
  • Obey the King and the government.
  • Never never never never doubt!
  • Never think about the past.
  • Move to Israel (everyone will be saved there).
  • Be so frightened of God that you cry when you pray.
  • Be poor (they get a free ride to heaven).
  • Give your enemies money.
  • Be humble.

I may have missed some but these were the highlights.

Plus, dont get too attached to the material world. The kingdom of god is a spiritual place within us, and one can't enter into it, if one is too tied to the material world.

Does this mean I shouldn't recycle or worry about the environment?

I see fancy churches and wealthy Christians with big houses and nice cars everywhere. They seem to be very attached to material things.

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I know people in jail who've done that!

The Bible is full of heroes who were liars, cheaters and stealers. I don't understand that.

No he didn't. When asked which commandments to follow in both Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:18, Jesus could only name five correctly. In these two versions of the story he came up with a sixth one ("Love thy neighbor") but that one had never been a commandment. To make things worse, in Mark 10:17, Jesus was quoted as saying yet another false commandment ("Defraud not"). This showed how little Jesus knew about God's teachings.

So if you love your wife, cheat on her. No need for legalism!

I can't find that anywhere. Are you just making this up? The Bible warns of false prophets and how they'll mislead people into sin.

I went through the Bible. Here's the list I've come up with so far:

  • Marry someone who is a Christian
  • Burn your possessions
  • Always be hungry.
  • Call on the name of the Lord (whatever that means)
  • Wait for Jesus to return since he's returning very soon.
  • Be tempted all the time but pass on temptation.
  • Just believe in Jesus, nothing else.
  • Get Baptised. Nothing else.
  • Do good works.
  • Don't do good works because they don't count.
  • Forsake all of your possessions.
  • Don't get married.
  • Obey the King and the government.
  • Never never never never doubt!
  • Never think about the past.
  • Move to Israel (everyone will be saved there).
  • Be so frightened of God that you cry when you pray.
  • Be poor (they get a free ride to heaven).
  • Give your enemies money.
  • Be humble.

I may have missed some but these were the highlights.

Does this mean I shouldn't recycle or worry about the environment?

I see fancy churches and wealthy Christians with big houses and nice cars everywhere. They seem to be very attached to material things.

You asked me my opinion on the bible.

I dont think anyone would go to gaol for acting in a way that they thought would be suitable to act in heaven.

The bible is full of men and women. they are human and thus sin. God can forgive them. Even noah became a sinner in time.

Jesus knew all the commandments. He said he was the fulfilment of them. Jesus had been a jewish scholar since a very young child. Of course he knew somthing as basic as that. As other posters pointed out, christ was making a point in this conversation; something he was prone to do.

No as christ said, even thinking about cheating on your wife is a sin. It hurts you and your relationship with god within you. physicaly cheating on her hurts her you, and your society. It breaks several of the commandments in principle, but especially, it is not an act of love.

And no i am not making it up. Iti s one of the critical pivot points as to how christ acts as a fulcrum or balance point between the old testament and the new. It is at the core of why christianity is a different faith to judaism.

Insead of looking at your list, study and understand the teaching /learning intent of each item on the list. That will help.

You also miss out a lot of critical points like the parables of the good samaritan and the prodigal son. Study the words of christ and how he behaved to people That will help more. It is not the only way to become one with god, but it can work.

No you are a steward of the earth. You have a particular responsibilty to be environmentaly conscious and reduce your ecological footprint. It would be best to be a vegetarian, not fly anywhere, buy only recycled goods, and not consume more than you need for a healthy life.

You also need to share all you have with others less fortunate, because all you have came from god in the first place.

That doesnt mean give it all away. Remember the parable of the talents. Use your talents wisely as the good steward did, and you will have more to return to the master for his use (eg caring for other humans)

IMHO such christians must have a lot of difficulty maintaining a living relationship with god, but that is between them and god. I am only responsible for myself, and for my relationship with god.

Ps the apparent dichotomy over good works is easily resolved. Good works wont get you into heaven and aren't necessary to do so. BUT a person who loves god and his fellow man will naturally do good works as an outcome of that love. Thus one of the indicators of a person who truly and fully loves god will always be how they act towards themselves and others. if you love others like yourselff and as god loves you, you wont be able to stop yourself doing "good things" for others. And this will be quite obvious to all around you.

Edited by Mr Walker

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You asked me my opinion on the bible.

I dont think anyone would go to gaol for acting in a way that they thought would be suitable to act in heaven.

The bible is full of men and women. they are human and thus sin. God can forgive them. Even noah became a sinner in time.

Jesus knew all the commandments. He said he was the fulfilment of them. Jesus had been a jewish scholar since a very young child. Of course he knew somthing as basic as that. As other posters pointed out, christ was making a point in this conversation; something he was prone to do.

No as christ said, even thinking about cheating on your wife is a sin. It hurts you and your relationship with god within you. physicaly cheating on her hurts her you, and your society. It breaks several of the commandments in principle, but especially, it is not an act of love.

And no i am not making it up. Iti s one of the critical pivot points as to how christ acts as a fulcrum or balance point between the old testament and the new. It is at the core of why christianity is a different faith to judaism.

Insead of looking at your list, study and understand the teaching /learning intent of each item on the list. That will help.

You also miss out a lot of critical points like the parables of the good samaritan and the prodigal son. Study the words of christ and how he behaved to people That will help more. It is not the only way to become one with god, but it can work.

No you are a steward of the earth. You have a particular responsibilty to be environmentaly conscious and reduce your ecological footprint. It would be best to be a vegetarian, not fly anywhere, buy only recycled goods, and not consume more than you need for a healthy life.

You also need to share all you have with others less fortunate, because all you have came from god in the first place.

That doesnt mean give it all away. Remember the parable of the talents. Use your talents wisely as the good steward did, and you will have more to return to the master for his use (eg caring for other humans)

IMHO such christians must have a lot of difficulty maintaining a living relationship with god, but that is between them and god. I am only responsible for myself, and for my relationship with god.

Ps the apparent dichotomy over good works is easily resolved. Good works wont get you into heaven and aren't necessary to do so. BUT a person who loves god and his fellow man will naturally do good works as an outcome of that love. Thus one of the indicators of a person who truly and fully loves god will always be how they act towards themselves and others. if you love others like yourselff and as god loves you, you wont be able to stop yourself doing "good things" for others. And this will be quite obvious to all around you.

MW, If two people decide that for them cheating is not the direction that they want to take the relationship, then of course, for them it would be best to have no cheating as a guiding principle and one could find all kinds of ideologies to support this approach-- including yours.

Synonymously-- it is naivety to suggest that their are not couples or other manners of 'being' in relationships. For some couples sexual variety would be a workable/welcome aspect of their relationship; in fact, it could suit them.

I think-- the day of exclusively 'traditional' has evolved to include the understanding that there is more then one way to find a happily ever after.

This is not to say I do not get or appreciate that you prefer a firm hand when it comes to your own human nature, it is definitely a way of handling life, but a relationship based on what works grounded in the sole preferences of the people involved can cultivate good relationships too. My hubby and I find that monogamy is what works best for us, for no other reason then it is what is working for us right now, and we think that other couples have the right to decide this for themselves too, just like we did and if they reach a different conclusion, then that is cool too.

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MW, If two people decide that for them cheating is not the direction that they want to take the relationship, then of course, for them it would be best to have no cheating as a guiding principle and one could find all kinds of ideologies to support this approach-- including yours.

Synonymously-- it is naivety to suggest that their are not couples or other manners of 'being' in relationships. For some couples sexual variety would be a workable/welcome aspect of their relationship; in fact, it could suit them.

I think-- the day of exclusively 'traditional' has evolved to include the understanding that there is more then one way to find a happily ever after.

This is not to say I do not get or appreciate that you prefer a firm hand when it comes to your own human nature, it is definitely a way of handling life, but a relationship based on what works grounded in the sole preferences of the people involved can cultivate good relationships too. My hubby and I find that monogamy is what works best for us, for no other reason then it is what is working for us right now, and we think that other couples have the right to decide this for themselves too, just like we did and if they reach a different conclusion, then that is cool too.

Sexual variety is not necessarily cheating.

But lieing to, and deceiving, a partner you have promised to be faithful to, is. It depends on how you establish a relationship, what the parameters are, and how open it is.

That said, I am old fashioned enough to believe in monogamous marriage for life. It worked exceptionally well for all my family for centuries, and it works to day for all my current near and extended family. We have huge advantages over families which are split up, separated and then reformed around new partners, in laws, grandparents, extended relatives etc. The same is true for my wifes family, historically and today.

Children of broken marriages are considerably disadvantaged; financially, scholastically, emotionally, and psychologically; using all modern statistical indicators.

If it does not work for some, then I think they need to look at them selves and their priorities, and work out why they cannot remain faithful to one partner for life. I am not talking about abusive relationships, but ordinary marriages. In many cases it is simple selfishness, and putting "me" and my wants/ needs first, before others.

Edited by Mr Walker

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God Will Reveal Himself to us on a proper time ....To actually see God is wort waiting...

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God Will Reveal Himself to us on a proper time ....To actually see God is wort waiting...

God 's nature is imprinted upon the entire universe , in that God is revealed, but I don't know about actually visually seeing some being " God " . God revealed a part of himself for us in Jesus. The word became flesh .

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EDIT .. sorry wrong post

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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