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TheMacGuffin

UFOs with Speeds up to 27,000 MPH

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mcrom...as you are in constant disagreement with TheMacGuffin...and have made the above statement...

what exactly do YOU think they were 'dealing with'...?

hiya bee... the data is insufficient to reach any definitive conclusion regarding what they might have been... it's the certainties put forward by mcg that i'm questioning... whether it be ruling out natural phenomenon or the certainty that they were nuts and bolts spacecraft under the guise of plasma glow... anyways, natural plasma formations have been observed repeatedly displaying all these unique attributes which are considered to be otherworldly... unfortunately most of said data wasn't available back in the days when natural phenomenon was being ruled out... other than that i haven't seen any data which suggests anything otherwise... :)

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I just looked up Project Pounce and read this link...about Colonel Steve Wilson by Richard Boylan...

".......The fuselage was surrounded by a strange greenish light...."

re. Wilson and Project Pounce...

Don't know if the reported 'strange greenish light' and what happened could have anything to do with or any link with the green 'fireballs' ...?

Or what (on earth or beyond) it could all mean come to that....but this was the first link I clicked onto to do with Project Pounce

and it blew my mind, if it is all true.

.

What I know about Project Pounce is that it was first proposed in 1952 by Col. William Methaney, who was the commander of the fighter wing at Kirtland Air Force Base. His pilots were often encountering UFOs at that time, and on at least one occasion opened fire on them.

Methaney proposed the creation of special squadrons of very fast jets that would be sent up after UFOs, with special cameras and equipment to detect them and get more data about what they were composed of, and so on. As the name suggests, thy were just going to try to pounce on them, and I suspect try to shoot them down as well.

Wilbert Smith, the Canadian engineer, did mention at the time that he was working on a system to detect UFOs from the ground called Project Magnet, which was expanded in the US when it proved successful.

Project Pounce got underway after the Korean War, when more fast jets were available, and this was right around the time that Eisenhower put Air Defense Command in charge of UFO investigations. Nathan Twining became head of the Air Force as well at this time, and he also thought that UFOs were interplanetary.

I would say that many of the strange UFO chases that we hear about in the US and overseas in the 1950s and 1960s were part of Project Pounce--or at least some of them were--including some of these stories about planes getting knocked down, disintegrating, disappearing and so on. Once in a while we get records about one of these, like the Milton Torres case of 1957.

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Project Pounce does get mentioned on other websites from time to time, and Edward Ruppelt knew Col. Methaney, although he didn't use his name in the first edition of his book.

"Data is thin that would confirm that there was ever an actual program referred to as "Pounce", yet there are intriguing bits and pieces to be found in the archives.

Documents circa 1953 reveal stories of F-86 interceptors being vectored toward UFOs, some of which escaped pursuit by exiting vertically, presumably into outer-space. These jet planes had been maneuvered into what was being referred to as "pounce" position. Ground Control Intercept (GCI)had specifically used the term "Pounce Position" when describing, at least one, of the accounts the of F-86 interceptions.

An Internet search conducted on the phrases "air combat + Pounce" took me to several papers dealing with military air combat. Pounce seems to be a fairly common term. It refers to the act of pouncing on a ground target, as in a railroad yard, or bridge, as well it also was used when referring to the act of the pilot getting his plane over, and above an air target. Once they were above the target, and hopefully unseen by the enemy aircraft as well, they would "pounce" upon them in surprise.

The air target grammar usage fits the UFO encounters of 1953, as the interceptors were getting over, and above the UFO targets. As you can see from this web site, others have a slightly different tale to tell, as regards to Project: Pounce."

http://www.google.co...xU6IOXYYHParmjA

Edited by TheMacGuffin
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Ruppelt later said about Methaney:

Col. Methaney was the CO of the 34th Air Defense Division in Albuquerque. He is now a Brigadier General. He was firmly convinced that the UFO's were real and that they were interplanetary space ships. He wrote up a plan that called for a special squadron of stripped down F-94C's to chase the UFO's. The plan went through Western Air Defense Headquarters and to Air Defense Command Headquarters but it was rejected because of the non-availability of the aircraft. It was in the 34th that the F-86 pilot claimed that he shot at the UFO...Colonel Methany (Ruppelt misspells in these notes but not in his book) was indeed head of the 34th Air Defense Division at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque, New Mexico. His plan, dubbed Project Pounce, to use F-94C fighters to go after UFOs with gun-cameras was discarded under the motive that due to the Korean war, there were not enough planes available...The UFO shooting incident Ruppelt refers to is detailed in the beginning of Chapter 1 of his book.

One of Methaney's pilots fired on a UFO, that immediately sped off very rapidly and probably was not hit at all.

Edited by TheMacGuffin
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Lockheed was involved with building specially-equipped fighters to go after UFOs, either to shoot them down or at least get better films of them. Kelly Johnson's interest in UFOs is well known.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CE0QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nicap.org%2Freports%2Flockheedstarco.htm&ei=mya6UJqqK4j88gTu74C4Dg&usg=AFQjCNHVf8_dz0XEvd2YzEeuwM8YRLWc9Q&sig2=SlSM9R0xG0wQYObKGmppDw

price1.jpg

f94cam.jpg

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Ruppelt later said

The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. The book is notable because it was, for several subsequent decades, the only account of Air Force UFO studies written by a participant. It remains arguably one of the most level-headed books about UFOs; Hynek suggested that Ruppelt's "book should be required reading for anyone seriously interested in the history of this subject".[7] In the book, Ruppelt detailed his time with Projects Grudge and Blue Book, and offered his assessments of some UFO cases, including a portion he thought were puzzling and unexplained. Ruppelt also revealed much insider material and thinking, including the existence of previously unknown classified documents and studies, such as the Robertson Panel.

In 1956, Donald Keyhoe asked Ruppelt to join to serve as an adviser to NICAP. Ruppelt had recently suffered a heart attack, and declined Keyhoe’s offer. Ruppelt's book indicates that Ruppelt held some dim views of Keyhoe and his early writings; Ruppelt noted that while Keyhoe generally had his facts straight, his interpretation of the facts was another question entirely. He thought Keyhoe often sensationalized the material and accused Keyhoe of "mind reading" what he and other officers were thinking. Yet Keyhoe cites conversations with Ruppelt in later books, suggesting that Ruppelt may have occasionally advised Keyhoe.

In 1960 the expanded edition of Ruppelt's book (20 Chapters) was published by Doubleday & Co.. The only change from earlier editions came in three more chapters which largely echoed the Air Force's position that there was nothing unusual about UFOs. Ruppelt seemed to have abandoned his early views that some UFO reports seemed mysterious and unexplained, and he declared UFOs a "space age myth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_J._Ruppelt#After_Blue_Book

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As for Steve Wilson, he wasn't a real colonel at all but a fraudster. I don't know where he picked up the name Project Pounce, but it existed long before the Paul Bennewitz case in 1980.

Of course, anything about those events is suspect given the involvement of Richard Doty and his tendency to "leak" all kinds of fake documents for disinformation purposes. Bennewitz really saw UFOs, but Doty then began to manipulate UFO researchers and lead them down the garden path.

Another member of the Doty clan was involved in the "green fireballs" investigation as well, back in 1950-51, and played a predictably nefarious role.

This is the type of thing "Colonel" Wilson was saying:

"The woman had finely-chiseled features. Her blonde hair cascaded neatly past her shoulders. Her eyes were the bluest blue I'd ever seen. Somehow she was different. Little did I know then, how different! She sat a large crystal on the table, and without warning, her fingers began to glow as she ran them over this crystal. A 3-D hologram began to form above it! I looked around the room and everyone's mouth was hanging open, and suddenly I noticed mine was, too. Little did I realise that at that moment my life would forever be changed. My past teachings slipped from me as I stared. My whole concept of life did a 180-degree turn, as I watched the Hologram, complete with sound, unfold the mysteries of the past and the present, and of other worlds."

http://www.google.co...X8M1iWCQ5IKnw4w

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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In 1960 the expanded edition of Ruppelt's book (20 Chapters) was published by Doubleday & Co.. The only change from earlier editions came in three more chapters which largely echoed the Air Force's position that there was nothing unusual about UFOs. Ruppelt seemed to have abandoned his early views that some UFO reports seemed mysterious and unexplained, and he declared UFOs a "space age myth".

http://en.wikipedia....After_Blue_Book

Are you going to stick to that version of the story, or perhaps give them some more complete information about what was going on?

I think you know what I mean.

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Are you going to stick to that version of the story, or perhaps give them some more complete information about what was going on?

I think you know what I mean.

the very fact that they were still trying to understand what was going on goes on to show that they never had any clue what was going on in the first place... sure enough, they were puzzled with what they were observing and by acting that nothing serious was going on they were lying... but that doesn't mean that they were hiding et traces.... it doesn't work like that... yes, ufos are real... the government tried to investigate them in silent mode... but the rest is all cooked up stories... :alien:

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Some people claimed that Project Pounce existed before Blue Book, or they think it was related to Project Moon Dust and Blue Fly, which did involve the crash retrievals of objects from space, including UFOs. In fact, Project UFO was another part of Moondust and Blue Fly although there are not many documents available about it.

http://www.exopaedia.org/Bluefly+Project

Project Grudge is sometimes described as the do-nothing successor to the defunct Project Sign, but there might have been more to it than is commonly known, as in "Global Radar Unknowns Defensive Ground Environment".

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yes, ufos are real... the government tried to investigate them in silent mode... but the rest is all cooked up stories... :alien:

And you KNOW that because....?

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And you KNOW that because....?

it's obvious...

"The woman had finely-chiseled features. Her blonde hair cascaded neatly past her shoulders. Her eyes were the bluest blue I'd ever seen. Somehow she was different. Little did I know then, how different! She sat a large crystal on the table, and without warning, her fingers began to glow as she ran them over this crystal. A 3-D hologram began to form above it! I looked around the room and everyone's mouth was hanging open, and suddenly I noticed mine was, too. Little did I realise that at that moment my life would forever be changed. My past teachings slipped from me as I stared. My whole concept of life did a 180-degree turn, as I watched the Hologram, complete with sound, unfold the mysteries of the past and the present, and of other worlds."

:rolleyes:

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There is quite a detailed series of articles on this website about conflicts between the Army, Navy and Air Force over the early UFO investigations, which keep going back again and again to the White Sands missiles range.

That's where all these early reports of crashed V-2 missiles or crashed "meteors" were originating, including a rocket that supposedly went off course and impacted in Mexico. Only it seems that no such V-2 ever existed and the the whole incident was very murky.

I have mentioned this a few times before, but for the military the Roswell case was really just a part of these other events at White Sands, including the sightings of unknown "missiles" and "meteors" dating back to 1946--or at least the public and media were given that story.

Lincoln LaPaz didn't think these were "meteors", though, and kept saying so in public. No, I don't think the military was happy with all this public back-and-forth either.

http://www.google.co...IZ3unqKYhMSM_eA

"Military records reveal a surprisingly large volume of these unknown lighted objects seen, and reported officially. By the summer of 1947 what we now refer to as UFOs burst –seemingly very suddenly- upon the scene. This also accompanied a rather extensive, and as of yet unprecedented, restructuring of the Defense Establishment, and the creation of an unheard of level of secrecy in the name of National Security.

It began to burn its hottest at the outset of the second Truman Administration, in 1948.

The President had assigned the task of bringing this whole aspect of consolidation of the services to the former Navy Secretary, newly appointed Secretary of Defense, James V. Forrestal, who died after a short illness the following year.

We were at the very beginning stages of our experiments with missiles and rocketry at the time these unknown flying objects showed up. Though we were being assisted in these experiments by several “former” Nazi scientists, it still took an extremely long period of time, devoted to research and development, to even take the rudimentary steps into the world of rockets, missiles, and earth satellite vehicles. The craft of unknown origin were being flown by someone, in a manner which seemed to defy common reason. Even if one argues that they were remotely guided, someone, someplace, was guiding them…to where? They would have had to “go” somewhere…so where did they go?"

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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On July 7 a newspaper ran a story of a disc being sighted by a Navy rocket expert, who worked out at the White Sands Missile Range, in the state of New Mexico. The Washington D.C. newspaper, The Evening Star, had this to say, ”…An eyewitness account of a flight of a ‘flying saucer’ came today from a Naval Research rockets expert here as aircraft were alerted along the West Coast in the hope of locating one of the discs and solving the mystery. The rockets expert, Dr. C. J. Zohn, who disclosed today that he had spotted one of the speeding discs on a recent Navy mission to New Mexico, said it looked like no guided missile he had ever studied.

The news account continued with, “On the other hand, Lester Barlow, Internationally known explosives inventor, advanced the theory at Stamford, Conn., that the ‘flying saucers’ were probably radio-controlled flying missiles being tested in the West by military authorities…Government officials have denied any tests are being conducted that might answer to the mystery that has baffled the Nation since June 25. An Army spokesman said AAF believes ‘there’s something to this’ but is completely mystified as to just what.”

The story was reprinted on July the 8th, in still another paper. Dr. Zohn, and two other scientists, saw the “missile” near Whites Sands, New Mexico on June 29, 1947, five days after Kenneth Arnold’s sighting of silvery, skipping, horse-shoe-shaped objects. This Naval Research Laboratory missile specialist was certain that it wasn’t a test flight of anything that was of our design. In one of the interviews he said, “…It was traveling away from us at a uniform rate of speed,” he reported. “It was clearly visible and then suddenly, it wasn’t there. It didn’t go behind a mountain range. It simply disappeared.”

Interestingly, Dr. Zohn was quoted as saying that when he reported it Army officers, at the range, he “…drew only flashy-eyed stares.”

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbobkoford.blogspot.com%2F2008_11_01_archive.html&ei=mya6UJqqK4j88gTu74C4Dg&usg=AFQjCNHBdz8BmZ2cwQCBC2v_NiXf90wZMA&sig2=0phkCZwIZ3unqKYhMSM_eA

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These "meteors" had been troubling the military long before the Green Fireballs and Project Twinkle, especially with Dr. LaPaz always saying they wren't meteors at all, and the missile experts saying that they weren't missiles.

I would be very leery of any "meteor" or "missile" explanations that were always slapped on these reports after the fact, which is the Blue Book style. They didn't get all the reports anyway or of they did it was long after someone else had investigated them and their job was just to put some kind of "explanation" on them that sounded plausible. That is done all the time with UFO reports but it doesn't mean anything.

Don't mean nothin' at all. LOL

"Sightings of the fast unknown flying missiles continued unabated, and a few more of the examples from documents acquired via the Project Blue Book Archives should illustrate why the objects stood out so strongly. For example, one report was on an unidentified object or some type of high-speed jet aircraft, traveling an estimated 700-800 MPH, seen leaving a pronounced ‘contrail”, noticed by a citizen in Las Vegas, Nevada, October 8th or 9th , 1947. He promptly reported it to the Air Force, being greatly concerned:

“…I stepped from my car to observe more closely, as two things immediately troubled my mind—where the missile should have been, at the head of the steadily appearing trail, nothing was visible, or was too small to see.” “…the speed was startling, certainly between 400 and 1000 miles per hour, and I should estimate more precisely at from 700 to 800, still too fast for conventional types of aircraft. The trail the missile was leaving in its wake, may have been smoke, vapor from intense speed, or any unknown substance…3. Path of the strange missile is drawn on the attached map, and was seen by numerous people. At the local airport where I do some flying, a considerable number of inquiries were received as to its origin and identification. Name of airport: Sky Haven.”

The Air Force’s final assessment stated:

“…In everything except the course flown, the description given more answers to that of a fireball. The course indicated in this incident, however, appears almost fatal to such a hypothesis.”

Yeah...fatal if you think that meteors don’t usually alter their courses only to zip off in another direction, as this object reportedly did. To get the proper perspective of this case, one should first take note of a modern day jet aircraft as it traverses the sky. The plane is leaving a contrail behind it. The first thing you would notice, perhaps, is that, although the jet plane must be traveling at a fairly good rate of speed, certainly more than 300 mph, at the high altitude the plane is located, the plane does not give the impression of speed. On the contrary, it appears to be chugging along. Imagine yourself in 1947, making the above statement. It was traveling so fast, that the witness sensed the speed, declaring it to be around 700 mph. The Air Force admitted that the object’s actions (turning around and heading off in another direction) ruined the fireball hypothesis, but they labeled the event “meteoric” in the records anyway.

It should be noted that these very same “records” were given to experts later, and these same records were utilized in preparing their conclusions."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbobkoford.blogspot.com%2F2008_11_01_archive.html&ei=mya6UJqqK4j88gTu74C4Dg&usg=AFQjCNHBdz8BmZ2cwQCBC2v_NiXf90wZMA&sig2=0phkCZwIZ3unqKYhMSM_eA

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Then we have the crash of the "missile" somewhere in Mexico, except that no one at White Sands could ever identify it as one of theirs. This was strictly an Army show, however, and the commander of Ft. Bliss Texas was involved, as was Ft. Sam Houston, then as now the Army's leading facility for training medics.

I've been there myself. It was always one of the favored assignments in the Army, while Ft. Bliss definitely was not.

Anyway, the Army was in charge of dealing with all these crashed "missiles" and "meteors" or whatever they were, and as I have said before, when it comes to UFOs people have been barking up the wrong trees for many years.

"As stated previously in this report, the recovery of some type of other-worldly device would have been handled, most likely, by a group like the Joint Research Development Board (JRDB). What a strange coincidence that the date of the publication of both Dr. Zohn’s sighting of a missile of the likes he had never “studied” before, at White Sands, and the reported recovery of the Roswell device, near Corona, were both July the 8th, 1947, the very date in which the JRDB assigned the Army committee in question, with Fort Bliss at the Helm, over-seeing the range, in New Mexico.

As late as October 24th, murmurings about the incident continued, hinting at a much deeper interest in the case, proving that something was indeed going on, and different components of the military wanted to be kept appraised of the situation. For instance, the document of the 24th reads, “…Subject: Crash of Unidentified Flaming Object To: Commanding General, Air Material Command Wright Field, Dayton Ohio Attention: TSNLI 1. Reference is made to your message TSNAD-10-2, 14 October 1947, and TSNAD-10-3, 17 October 1947, and letter, this headquarters, dated 20 October 1947, subject as above. 2. Forwarded herewith is a copy of message from Commanding General Fourth Army, containing additional information on the subject “

The references to the two TSNADs are to the early memos, in which General Homer, Commander of Fort Bliss, Texas, reported that the early reports from the Mexican garrison were that it was an errant V-2 rocket, but that General Homer, was still surveying, and would update. No other updates appear, but one of the requests for information came from Fort Sam Houston, which is the premier military medical base in the entire nation."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbobkoford.blogspot.com%2F2008_11_01_archive.html&ei=mya6UJqqK4j88gTu74C4Dg&usg=AFQjCNHBdz8BmZ2cwQCBC2v_NiXf90wZMA&sig2=0phkCZwIZ3unqKYhMSM_eA

Remember my helpful hint, when it's on the ground it's an Army problem, whether they want it or not.

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These "meteors" had been troubling the military long before the Green Fireballs and Project Twinkle, especially with Dr. LaPaz always saying they wren't meteors at all, and the missile experts saying that they weren't missiles.

according to the twining memo...

ats55624_Twining_Memo_1.jpg

but natural phenomenon is not restricted to meteors only... keyword: "possibility" ;)

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"All of the memos that were available for me to read at the Project Blue Book Archives, dealing with this incident, concluded that it was a fiery missile, or meteor, approximately one meter long, and which brandished a blue, fiery tail. It crashed in Mexico, just West of Fabens, Texas, very close to a village known as Cassetta Reforma. Fears were raised that it could entangle the U.S. into sovereignty issues. Since it was initially deemed to be a meteor, based on evaluations by General Homer, it was left as such, and dropped, according to what is available in the files.

White Sands and Fort Bliss’s histories are important to all this, and it seems reasonable to quote a little more from the official history of the Proving Ground, i.e., The History of Cape Canaveral, Chapter 2:

“The Air Force was notified by the recently established Department of Defense on *December 30, 1947* that since a long range missile proving ground was intended to benefit the Army, Navy and Air Force, management of the project would be reassigned…The project was officially designated the Joint Long Range Proving Ground, with development responsibility granted to the Joint Long Range Proving Ground Group[bobnote: Army controlled]. Although plans continued initially for the establishment of a missile range based in California, political problems arose in 1948. Although it would have been a suitable site very close to existing missile manufacturers, the California site had to be rejected when Mexican President Aleman refused to agree to allow missiles to fly over the Baja region. This was largely a result of bad timing, since a wayward V-2 rocket launched from White Sands, New Mexico had recently crashed near Juarez, Mexico.”

Two things stand out to me:

1. It was proven early on, with documentation provided by the

American military, that the incident was not due to an an errant V-2 rocket

2. If it truly had been a meteor, the question is respectfully made as to the details of the meteor itself. Where are the official samples from

“the fall”, and the stories about the meteorologists who went there,and who now study them?

[* December 30, 1947, same date given as the official designation of SIGN as a special project to investigate the “flying discs”]"

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbobkoford.blogspot.com%2F2008_11_01_archive.html&ei=mya6UJqqK4j88gTu74C4Dg&usg=AFQjCNHBdz8BmZ2cwQCBC2v_NiXf90wZMA&sig2=0phkCZwIZ3unqKYhMSM_eA

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Yeah...fatal if you think that meteors don’t usually alter their courses only to zip off in another direction, as this object reportedly did.

plasmas do... :alien:

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according to the twining memo...

but natural phenomenon is not restricted to meteors only... keyword: "possibility" ;)

But Gen. Twining never thought that the UFOs were really meteors, not in 1947, and not later when he was head of the Air Force and finally the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

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plasmas do... :alien:

Oh yes, the latest catch-all explanation for every UFO report that cannot otherwise be explained. I tend to think of it as the bottom of the barrel--the last resort if all else fails.

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Oh yes, the latest catch-all explanation for every UFO report that cannot otherwise be explained. I tend to think of it as the bottom of the barrel--the last resort if all else fails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

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F-86 Shooting Incident / 700 MPH Target

Sept. 1952

Albuquerque, New Mexico

Fran Ridge:

Sept. 1952; Albuquerque, New Mexico

Afternoon. Radar detected a 700 m.p.h. target near Kirtland AFB which slowed to 100 m.p.h.. Two F-86's were scrambled. One fired on the UFO. Report ordered destroyed. If Captain Edward J. Ruppelt hadn't written about it in his book we would never have heard about this case. It never made it to Blue Book.

In January of 1998 I received a large collection of notes by Ruppelt that his wife had turned over to the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago. These were actually provided to me by Robert Swiatek of the Fund for UFO Research. They included interesting information regarding this case. In June of 2002 our Nuclear Connection Project team made a startling discovery. A few years before we had found that there were193 incidents where UFOs and nuclear energy or weapons sites were common factors. Kirtland had figured in on two of them (1957 & 1980). We then realized any major sighting over Kirtland would also have a NC and this incident was added to the list.

Lt. Glen Parrish was the Intelligence Officer at the 34th Air Defense Division at Albuquerque where Col. Matheny was the CO. Ruppelt: "Parrish sent in some of the best reports that we had and he is the man who showed me the report on the pilot who shot at the UFO." (Sept. 1952) According to Ruppelt, with all of the good reports that Parrish had submitted, he wasn't a confirmed believer. But he did think that the reports were important enough to warrant careful investigations. In addition to the above, Parrish was the middle man for the reports from the people who were doing the radiation work in Los Alamos. The date of the encounter was discovered by Brad Sparks to have been sometime in September of that year. Dan Wilson recently posted some BB docs that show incidents in September, but have them listed as explained as "balloon".

Joel Carpenter:

In the spring of 1952 there was proposal by Col Methaney (I believe that's the spelling) of Kirtland's Air Defense Command 34th Air Defense Division - to modify Lockheed F-94C Starfire interceptors with cameras to get closeup photos of UFOs. They were to be put on 24/7 alert (POUNCE). I would think Kirtland would have been the logical place.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CEIQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nicap.org%2F5209XXalbuquerque_dir.htm&ei=sjm6UPChNYWS9gSRnYA4&usg=AFQjCNHca_QVjWFDwtaFu2O3PL9DTzRRVg&sig2=qAKfGyOsdNMqBdMN0aWxEA

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You always make it sound like you are imparting some kind of new information to me with these annoying Wiki articles, as if I'd never heard of any of it before. LOL

oh50ba3ac0.jpg

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