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TheMacGuffin

UFOs with Speeds up to 27,000 MPH

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On July 24 a green fireball was observed falling close to Socorro, New Mexico. Dust samples were collected at the School of Mines there and were found to contain large particles of copper. LaPaz found this highly significant, since copper burns with the same yellow-green color characteristic of the green fireballs. He also noted that if the copper particles came from the green fireballs, then they could not be conventional meteorites, since copper was never found in dust of meteoric origin. LaPaz suggested that further air and ground samples be taken in areas where the fireballs were seen.

that therefore this... :rolleyes:

Yes, those were LaPaz's conclusions at the time, that the UFOs were missiles of some kind. After all, he was there and actually saw them, and he knew they were not conventional objects or natural phenomena.

"LaPaz travels to Los Alamos to interview the witnesses of the 20 Dec incident. He plots the sightings (which he notes were not made under the best conditions), and calculates that the Green Fireball had appeared at an altitude of around 50,000 ft and descended at a 45 degree angle to only about 12,000 ft, leveled off, then flew horizontally for about 7.5 miles at a speed of about 3.75 - 7.5 miles per second (13,000 to 27,000 mph - speeds at or above those achieved by ICBM warheads, and more than twenty times faster than a V-1)."

http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html

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There were all kinds of ideas floating around at the time to try to explain them, but LaPaz was the meteorite expert and he knew these weren't meteorites.

poland.gif

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Others speculated that the UFOs were nuclear-powered Soviet craft being launched from Siberia, but of course those did not actually exist at the tome either.

gasser12449.1.gif

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Yes, those were LaPaz's conclusions at the time, that the UFOs were missiles of some kind.

he couldn't have reached any such conclusion... it's a logical fallacy

After all, he was there and actually saw them, and he knew they were not conventional objects or natural phenomena.

he didn't know... his data wasn't sufficient... ;)

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Then in January 1950, LaPaz became even more convinced that the UFOs had to be artificial or man-made objects of some kind:

25 Jan

Dr William Crozier attempts air sampling at NM School of Mines in Socorro, using his special impactment dust collector. Crozier was a WWII Proximity Fuze project colleague of LaPaz and is currently conducting a Navy-funded research project related to reentry vehicle research. Crozier has developed a sampling device called an "impactment dust collector" which draws air through filter paper discs. He has previously used the device in an attempt to obtain microscopic particles of meteor debris which had drifted down from the upper atmosphere. The military funds the research as part of its early attempt to understand the dynamics of hypersonic objects in the upper atmosphere. LaPaz has contacted Crozier in hopes that the Green Fireballs had volatilized and produced particles that might be collected by Crozier's special sampler. Upon examining the filter from the Jan 25 run, Crozier finds that the filters contain large amounts of unusual microscopic copper spherules. Copper is one of the rarest elements in natural meteors.

26 Jan

Second air sampling attempt at Crozier's lab. More copper particles are obtained. LaPaz is convinced that this is evidence of the artificiality of the fireballs but Crozier is more cautious.

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This 1952 article

29118354.jpg

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In February 1950, LaPaz plotted the trajectory of a "fireball" seen by over 100 witnesses.

Within two hours he interviews personally over 100 eyewitnesses. Many are military personnel who were waiting outdoors for a movie to begin. Others are guards and agents primed to watch for luminous objects. Other witnesses include oil workers, aircrew, control tower personnel. Once again, no sound was heard.

It is a "green fireball" in LaPaz's words, although Texas observers, at the end of its path, "reported its color as blue, orange, red and even purple instead of green."

(LaPaz-Rees, 21 Feb)

LaPaz plots the sightings and concludes that the fireball was visible on a path beginning at an altitude of 12 miles above a point southeast of Portales, NM, and ending at eight to ten miles above 32 deg 48/ 102 deg 22 after traversing a nearly horizontal path approximately 143 miles long at a velocity of up to 14 miles per second (about 50,000 mph). The path was closer to the earth through its entire extent than any other meteorite that he knew of, except the green fireballs of 12 and 20 Dec.

30jangfb.jpg

http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html

LaPaz wants samples. He thinks the debris will "consist chiefly of copper or copper alloy rather than ferromagnetic substances found in ordinary meteorites." This is based on his growing concept that the fireballs are experimental reentry test bodies designed to burn up during their transit over the target -- essentially enormous target marker flares deliberately designed by some enemy power to be confused with Geminid meteors (In fact, copper "heat-sink" ICBM reentry vehicles are actually a technology under serious study in the 1950s and are used in the first operational US ICBM years later - but are designed not to burn up during reentry). LaPaz writes that he makes no immediate attempt to make new sampling runs with Crozier's impactment collector because he is preparing to return to teaching.

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Definitely not ball lightning or meteorites:

Albuquerque (N.M.) Journal, Monday, Dec. 18, 1950 - p. 1.

FRONTIER AIRLINES PILOTS WATCH FLIGHT Of 'FIREBALL'

Another brilliant "fireball" streaked through New Mexico skies late Saturday night (12/16).

It was seen by Captain A. Harvey, pilot of a Frontier Airlines plane approaching Albuquerque from Gallup, and co-pilot Merrick C. Marshall.

The two flyers reported to Dr. Lincoln LaPaz. head of the Meteoritics Institute at the University of New Mexico, that the light first appeared in the northeast, approximately over Las Vegas. They watched the light for ten minutes, they said, as it moved in the direction of Las Alamos. During that time the "greenish fireball" seemed to circle Los Alamos and then head directly toward Albuquerque.

In turning, the light changed from green to a very bright white and passed over and to the rear of their plane -- then near Albuquerque -- at an estimated speed of over "700 miles an hour."

The time when the light was first sighted was at exactly 11:25 p.m. It remained in view until 11:35.

Both pilots are experienced airmen and said it could not possibly have been another plane

.

Dr. LaPaz is anxious to have reports from other observers. Things that would be of most value to him are: (duration, observers' position; color and direction object was going when last seen; and close observation of any noise or explosion).

Dr. LaPaz can be reached at the U of NM, telephone 8861, or at his home, teiephone 54693

http://www.project1947.com/gfb/skyliner.htm#land

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Alamogordo Daily News - February 12, 1953, page 11.

Continuing investigations of the "green fireballs" which have appeared mysteriously over the Southwest has led Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, University of New Mexico met[e]oritics expert, to the conclusion that they may be "man-made" according to an article in the February number New Mexico Magazine.

"If they are man-made," LaPaz warns, "for the sake of civilization, let's hope they are made in America."

Jack Gill, Albuquerque newspaperman, writing under the title, "The Mystery of the Green Fireballs.," relates the history of the fireball investigations and some of LaPaz' conclusions.

"The fireballs are Kelly green, whereas meteors are red, yellow, blue, or white. A green color could be caused by large amounts of copper, but this element is rarely found in ordinary fireballs. It could also originate from certain man-made atomic fuels."

Continuing, "They make no noise. None of the observers of green fireballs, nor persons in the area of the balls, have report any sound whatsoever. Also the fact that they disappear and no fragments have been found on the earth, may be evidence that their flight is controlled."

http://www.project1947.com/gfb/skyliner.htm#land

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Second air sampling attempt at Crozier's lab. More copper particles are obtained. LaPaz is convinced that this is evidence of the artificiality of the fireballs but Crozier is more cautious.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp132-c6.pdf

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On the other hand, some of the "green fireballs" were neither green nor spherical in shape.

Alamogordo Daily News - March 12, 1953, page 14.

SEEING THINGS IN ALAMOGORDO SKIES

T. B. Holliday President of Land-Air, Inc. which handles instrumentation services at Holloman Air Force Base, and John Proctor, vice-president, men whose scientific training qualifies them to be in the know along such lines, said in a prepared statement recently that they saw "an object" in the skies near here which "does not appear to be explained by any known phenomena."

The two men said they could not estimate the size of the object because they did not know its distance from them.

"If it was of an appreciable size," Proctor said , "its velocity when last seen must have greatly exceeded the maximum velocity of a V-2 rocket."

Proctor described the "strange light" in the following manner. "The night was clear and the object stood out against the starlit sky as a brilliant orange-yellow disc, appearing to rotate slowly. It had many colored spots around its rim and there was no indication that it formed part of an airplane or other objects as there was no silhouette or such configuration against the sky."

"The light," Proctor said, "moved from west to east with an upward trajectory of an estimated 10 degrees." He and Holliday watched the object about two and half minutes, then it suddenly shot vertically upward and disappeared in the atmosphere within four seconds.

There have been many other instances over a period of time where credited persons across New Mexico have seen strange sights in the skies that have the experts baffled.

Although descriptions of the "things" seen do vary, none have been thought to be just optical illusions and, so far [as] is generally known, all have defied explanation.

http://www.project19...yliner.htm#land

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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Definitely not ball lightning or meteorites:

why?

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gats50.jpg

http://www.project19...o.html#skyliner

LaPaz analyzed this picture, which was taken in February 1950:

Date: May 18, 2005

From: Francis Ridge <nicap@insightbb.com>

Subject; Incident at Datil, NM; Photo Unexplained

February 24 and 25th, 1950

To: CE, SHG, NCP

Sighting No. 175

Photograph of Unknown Aerial Phenomena taken at Datil, New Mexico by Cpl Lertis E. Stanfield, Holloman Air Force

Base, New Mexico on 24 and 25 Feb 1950. An analysis of the above photograph was made by Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, Head

of the Institute of Meteorics, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, New Mexico, who reached the following conclusions;

a. The angular diameter of the perfectly round luminous object Stanfield observed was

approx imately 1/4 of a degree.

b. The angular velocity of the object in the sky was greater than half a degree per minute.

Dr. LaPaz stated that on the basis of the results (a) and (B) above, the object seen by Stanfield was not the moon (for the angular, diameter is too small), it was not Venus or any other planet (for the angular diameter was too large), and it was not a bright fixed star slightly out of focus (for the observed rate of motion is double that due to the diurnal rotation of the earth).

NARA-PBB91-400

http://www.nicap.org...l500224docs.htm

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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In December 1949, LaPaz even considered the possibility that the "fireballs" were operating on some kind of "schedule".

LaPaz suspects that the Green Fireballs are appearing on a weekly schedule and desires confirmation. On the 19th he returnes to Los Alamos with Jack Boling of Kirtland OSI and Jerry Maxwell, FBI Special Agent in Charge, Los Alamos, and sets up cameras and transits at security checkpoints called "Nighthawk" and "Nightingale" west of Los Alamos in attempt to get accurate tracking and photo data. He is assisted by Los Alamos Atomic Energy Security Service (AESS) personnel .

(LaPaz memos, 21 Dec, 27 Dec)

A third point of observation is set up by a Mr Hubbard, an AEC radio engineer, who is a Naval Reserve electronic warfare company officer. Hubbard operates an SK-1M air search radar at the base radio station. He uses shortwave radios to communicate with other observation stations.

(McCormac-Tyler, 27 Dec)

http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html

He also tried to duplicate their color in his lab, although as I noted not all of them were green and in some reports their color varied across the spectrum.

At some point during this period he tries to duplicate the green color of the objects in his lab. "Copper salts [heated to incandescence] in the blowpipe [gas burner] flame" are an almost perfect match. The color is similar to yellowish-green light at 521.8 nanometers, a known copper spectroscopic emission line. It appears that he suspected a relationship to Zwicky's shaped-charge grenade technology.

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Evidently the CIA eventually got this film:

Cinetheodolite Film Taken By Tracking Station

April 27, 1950

White Sands Proving Grounds, New Mexico

Brad Sparks:

April 27, 1950. Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico (BBU)

While preparing for an MX-776A Shrike air-to-ground missile test Charles Riggs and other members of USAF contractor Land-Air, Inc., Askania theodolite crews saw, tracked, filmed 4 high flying objects on a cinetheodolite at station P-10 and a theodolite at station M-7. Triangulation resulted in 30 ft size and 150,000 ft altitude for the "high speed" objects located between Holloman AFB and Tularosa Peak.

Timothy Good:

Todd Zechel claims that photographic evidence found missing from the Air Force Project Blue Book files eventually found its way to the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence in the 1950s, and specifies a number of movie films taken at White Sands Proving Grounds, New Mexico: a cinetheodolite film taken by a camera tracking station on 27 April 1950; a cinetheodolite film taken by two camera stations on 29 May 1950, allegedly showing two huge UFOs traveling at 2,000 mph; and a 35mm film taken by a military pilot on 14 July 1951. (Source: ABOVE TOP SECRET, 354)

Brad Sparks:

The Holloman Data Reduction Unit report by mathematician Wilbur Mitchell stated that the speed was high but indeterminable. Evidently they just did not want to state an outlandish number. Presumably they had seconds not minutes of film of high angular velocity objects so a slow-moving Skyhook is ruled out -- also there were 4 objects close enough together that they were all within the FOV, so that also eliminates a single Skyhook (I really doubt that they would not know of Skyhook launches from their own base). Only other possibility is daylight meteors but 150,000 feet (30 miles) is way too low and they should have dropped to earth and burned up not, as what apparently happened, took off in powered flight. (See BB documents below) Oder himself is quoted in the AF documents in 1951 as pushing for Mirarchi's federal prosecution on grounds that Mirarchi had allegedly revealed classified SPEED-ALTITUDE tracking data on UFO's. That proves that Oder and AFCRL back in 1951 KNEW there was a SUCCESSFUL TRIANGULATION at White Sands, and one so important that they went to the extreme lengths of trying to get Mirarchi thrown in prison in order to maintain the coverup!

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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UFO'S: A History

1950:

August ­ December

By LOREN E. GROSS

Pages 11-12

"Spies over Los Alamos?"

On two successive days, 30 and 31 August, 1950, strange objects, as official documents put it, of an "undisclosed nature" were observed in the sky over Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The official report from Headquarters, 2754th Experimental Wing, stated that on August 30th:

"B-50 aircraft for mission of Missile MI-776, Bell Aircraft Corporation, was airborne and while employees of this company were scanning the sky for aircraft, two unexplainable objects were sighted in vicinity of the aircraft. The objects appeared at approximately 1045 hours and were visible for approximately 30 minutes, and seemed to follow the aircraft on both the dry run and the hot run, prior to release of the missile. Observers' stories differed to a degree and some observers saw only oneobject. At least eight responsible civilians and one Master Sergeant observed the phenomena." 29

What followed were six characteristics of the UFO's as perceived, one has to admit, by some fairly good witnesses. And one might be reminded that untrained observers were making the same kind of report, so we should ask ourselves if every one was seeing the same thing. The official Holloman document went on to say:

"The following points were noted by observers:

(1) Very fast rate of speed for short distances.

(2) Strong glare at all times that was not reflected from sun.

(3) Left no vapor trails, seemed to hover, make maneuvers and then accelerate rapidly.

(4) Made square abrupt turns, relative size changed sufficiently to determine ascent and descent, shape changed from round to elliptical.

(5) The two objects retained their relative position to one another.

(6) Appeared to be approximately ten times faster than B-SO aircraft and above aircraft." 30

The document then tells what happened the next day:

"Instrumentation facilities were set up this date [August 31st] and pictures were taken when phenomena appeared sporadically between hours of 1000 and 1300. The object appeared several times during this period, traveling at very high rates of speed, appearing from several different directions. F-86 aircraft from 93rd Fighter Group, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico, were requested and made a four-plane reconnaissance in the local area for approximately one hour; however, the pilots observed no unusual aerial phenomena. The colored phototheodolite film was immediately airmailed to Houston Plant, Los Angeles, California, for processing....A final report will be forwarded to your office upon completion. Observers at phototheodolite stations noted the following points:

"(1) Object had definite shape, including depth.

(2) Disappeared when observer took eye off to read angle.

(3) No smoke or fire.

(4) Object seemed to rock or oscillate. ..

(5) Edges of object were not sharp or distinct." 31

The film was rushed to the Holloman Air Force Base Data Reduction Unit where it was analyzed in an effort to determine correlations that could establish a triangulation. Unfortunately, the UFO's had traversed the sky at too high a speed. 32, 33

FOOTNOTES

29. "Air Intelligence Information Report," prepared by Major R. G. Illing, Acting Base Director, Operations and Projects, 2754th Experimental Wing, Holloman AFB, New Mexico. 13 September 50. Blue Book Files.

30. Ibid.

31. Ibid.

32. Very faded document. No identifying data. Can be located in Air Force Blue Book Files by date: "August 1950."

33. "Air Intelligence Information Report," prepared by Major R. C. Illing, Acting Base Director, Operations and Projects, 2754th, Experimental Wing, Holloman AFB, New Mexico. 13 August 50. Blue Book Files.

http://www.nicap.org/reports/500830holloman_report2.htm

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Dr. LaPaz stated that on the basis of the results (a) and ( b ) above, the object seen by Stanfield was not the moon (for the angular, diameter is too small), it was not Venus or any other planet (for the angular diameter was too large), and it was not a bright fixed star slightly out of focus (for the observed rate of motion is double that due to the diurnal rotation of the earth).

therefore it was what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Evidently the CIA eventually got this film:

and the subsequent paranoia proves that they were et?

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A 22-page report on UFO sightings from December 1948 to May 1950 prepared by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Too big to post on here.

http://www.nicap.org/NSID/AFOSI_LaPazCatalograwdata.pdf

Pursuant to direct orders from Brig. Gen. Joseph Carroll, Director of Special Investigations (AFOSI), HQ USAF, Washington, DC, on a visit to the AFOSI office at Kirtland AFB, Albuquerque, NM, a catalog of UFO (aerial phenomena) sightings including the mysterious Green Fireballs is prepared by Dr. Lincoln LaPaz for Lt. Col. Doyle Rees, commander of AFOSI 17th District at Kirtland, who sends it to Gen. Carroll.

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A 22-page report on UFO sightings from December 1948 to May 1950 prepared by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Too big to post on here.

let's stick to the fireballs and your reasoning as to why natural phenomenon should be ruled out... :unsure2:

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Two Objects Filmed During Shrike Missile Test

Aug. 30, 1950

Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico

Brad Sparks:

Aug. 30, 1950; Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico (BBU)

10:45 a.m. During a Bell Aircraft MX-776 Shrike missile test (for the later Rascal air-to-ground strategic missile) USAF M/Sgt and eight Bell Aircraft employees on base saw two glaringly bright circular to elliptical unidentified objects maintaining relative position to each other following the B-50 launch aircraft from above on both the dry run and hot run prior to missile release. Objects gave "strong glare at all times" not reflected sunlight, maneuvered at high estimated speeds up to 10x the B-50 or roughly 2,500 mph for short distances, left no vapor trails, hovered, accelerated rapidly, made abrupt "square" turns with apparent size changing to indicate ascent and descent. (Sparks; Jan Aldrich; McDonald files) 30 mins

http://www.nicap.org/500830holloman_dir.htm

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Objects Filmed After V-2 Launch

Aug. 31, 1950

Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico

Brad Sparks:

Aug. 31, 1950; Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico (BBU)

10 a.m. ­ 1 p.m. (MST). After V-2 missile launch no. 51, Project TWINKLE Askania theodolite crews tracked and filmed multiple objects sporadically several times from several different directions at very high speeds over the course of 3 hrs. Askania cinetheodolite station P-5 filmed object with major axis varying from 8.65 to 13.243 arcmins (0.1442° to 0.22072°), minor axis 3.493 arcmins (0.05822°), one frame per second 60 cm focal length camera, 35 mm color film. Tape recording of audio reporting. Frames 593 and 595 (2 secs of nearly 10 mins? of film of object) show elevation angle changing from 53°44' to 52°38' at a rate of 0.37°/sec. Attempted interception by four F-86 jets from 93rd FIS, Kirtland AFB, for 1 hr failed to locate objects, which apparently returned after jets left. Cinetheodolite observers noted object with definite shape and 3-D depth but indistinct or not sharp edges, no smoke or trail, object seemed to “rock or oscillate,” lost when observer looked away to get angle reading. (McDonald files; Jan Aldrich)

http://www.nicap.org/500831holloman_dir.htm

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mcg why do you spam so much? if you're not interested to discuss anything then why don't you start a blog?

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mcg why do you spam so much? if you're not interested to discuss anything then why don't you start a blog?

Discuss what? You're just on here joking around, like DONEATUS!

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Discuss what? You're just on here joking around, like DONEATUS!

i was referring to the discussions re the fireball phenomenon... you were making some bold claims based on outdated data... and when presented with new info & asked to defend your position... u go on..... 'then there is this......' ad nauseam

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i was referring to the discussions re the fireball phenomenon... you were making some bold claims based on outdated data... and when presented with new info & asked to defend your position... u go on..... 'then there is this......' ad nauseam

The reason I put "Green Fireballs" in quotes is because it is a misnomer and was known to be so at the time, just like Ken Arnold's "flying saucers" was a misnomer and the "Phoenix Lights" as well.

In reality, as I have pointed out many times on here, the "Green Fireballs" were not all green, were not all fireballs, were not only seen at night, and came in various shapes, sizes and colors. Many of them also lasted for a duration far longer than meteorites and ball lightning, so those explanations really explain nothing at all.

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