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markdohle

[Merged] Abortion and beliefs

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Figures from Statistics Canada, a federal government agency, show 491 babies were born alive following botched abortions during the period from 2000-2009 and left to die afterwards. The numbers have pro-life advocates up in arms.

Andre Schutten, legal counsel for ARPA Canada, noticed the numbers and blogged about them recently.

The blog Run with Life has reported that, from 2000 to 2009, 491 babies have been born alive following a failed abortion procedure, and subsequently left to die. And those are only the ones that are recordedby Statistics Canada.

canadaflag9.jpgThe blog explains that “there were 491 abortions, of 20 weeks gestation and greater, that resulted in live births. This means that the aborted child died after it was born. These abortions are coded as P96.4 or ‘Termination of pregnancy, affecting fetus and newborn’.

The question that should immediately present itself is, why has there not been 491 homicide investigations or prosecutions in connection with these deaths? Section 223(2) of the Criminal Code (the accompanying subsection to the now infamous subsection that Mr. Woodworth’s motion 312 was examining) reads “A person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being.” That is to say, anyone who interferes with a pregnancy such that the child dies after it is born alive due to that interference, is guilty of homicide.

So again, why have there been no criminal prosecutions? Why no outcry? And why are the provinces funding this explicitly criminal activity?

Some might argue that these procedures need to be protected in order to protect women’s health. Those who defend such actions or procedures are undoubtedly grasping at the defense for the crime listed in 238(1). Subsection 238(2) provides this defence: “This section does not apply to a person who, by means that, in good faith, he considers necessary to preserve the life of the mother of a child, causes the death of that child

.”http://www.lifenews.com/

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Sick.. they beat death once and they're going to leave them to die anyway.. :no:

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omg, thats just horrible!!! Im against abortions to begin with. :cry:

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"A person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being.”

this statement does not make sense as it is written.

is a foetus a child but not a human?

as for the abortion issue. i have no say in what another woman does with her body. nor do any of you. you can call it what you like but it still is not for you to make that decision.

as for this report - i find it disturbing that this happened, and i wonder how this was allowed to happen.

still it is not typical of how abortions are performed. there is more to this i think.

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A woman does whatever she wants their body. Abortion and such. Don't mind. As long as the child isn't even a human being yet, but rather a clump of cells, then abort it. Its heart isn't formed yet.

But to have abortions happen like this? Alright, that might be crossing the line.

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I need more information, to say what one should do in the situation. How many Babies born at 20 weeks live? 491 out of how many abortions at 20 weeks? Are you keeping it a live just to prolong it's death?

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I have no problem with an abortion in the first two months or so but after that I do if they are getting one just because they messed up and got pregnant. I don't like it used as a form of birth control. I vaguely knew this one woman one time that had three abortions over a 5 year period. She needed to be doing something else. She ended up sterile so I guess something else was done.

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abortions upsets me as its the ending of a potential life that isnt given the chance to blossom. i understand that women have the right to do what they want with their bodies but contraception is there for a reason. my origins begin with my mother giving birth to my dead twin and the doctors telling my mum that she wasnt still pregant and her baby was dead, if my mother had listened to the doctors she would of been given drugs that would of damaged my chances of surviving. i bring this up as i had a chance to blossom and hope others arnt denied the posibilties of life.

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If those children were viable and living.... Well ... Murdering a child for the sake of ones wants is simply pure evil. But I agree with Jgirl... There is more to this story me thinks. It has the ring of rhetoric to me.

Edited by Seeker79
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"A person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being.”

this statement does not make sense as it is written.

is a foetus a child but not a human?

as for the abortion issue. i have no say in what another woman does with her body. nor do any of you. you can call it what you like but it still is not for you to make that decision.

as for this report - i find it disturbing that this happened, and i wonder how this was allowed to happen.

still it is not typical of how abortions are performed. there is more to this i think.

Abortion clinics are a business, so people who work for them, well many of them, may become callous and unfeeling. Nothing stays the same, once a step is taken, then it moves forward and bears fruit, either for good or evil. Abortion on demand is evil, most abortions are selective and not done because the mothers life is in danger. The unborn have rights, one day that will be known, until then, abortions on demand will be allowed and men will continue (again many) to be able to do what they want without responsibility. Sex is not a recreational sport, you would think we would have learned that by now....perhaps we never will.

Peace

mark

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If those children were viable and living.... Well ... Murdering a child for the sake of ones wants is simply pure evil. But I agree with Jgirl... There is more to this story me thinks. It has the ring of rhetoric to me.

This is not the first time this has happened and continues to happen everyday. Remains of the aborted have been found in trash cans behind the clinic. Again, it is a business that is all, though of course there could be some who care, the bottom line is making money. The ramification of abortion on demand have not yet been fully felt.

Peace

mark

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I need more information, to say what one should do in the situation. How many Babies born at 20 weeks live? 491 out of how many abortions at 20 weeks? Are you keeping it a live just to prolong it's death?

The fact that they did not try, which is infanticide. In anycase where the line is drawn will change, so what is immoral will be legal, perhaps as some want, the time for parents to decide will be three months.

This is something by Peter Singer, which will in time become accepted by our society:

Here is where Singer picks up his detractors. According to this avant garde thinker, unborn babies or neonates, lacking the requisite consciousness to qualify as persons, have less right to continue to live than an adult gorilla. By the same token, a suffering or disabled child would have a weaker claim not to be killed than a mature pig. Singer writes, in Rethinking Life and Death:

Human babies are not born self-aware or capable of grasping their lives over time. They are not persons. Hence their lives would seem to be no more worthy of protection that the life of a fetus.

And writing specifically about Down syndrome babies, he advocates trading a disabled or defective child (one who is apparently doomed to too much suffering) for one who has better prospects for happiness:

We may not want a child to start on life's uncertain voyage if the prospects arc clouded. When this can be known at a very early stage in the voyage, we may still have a chance to make a fresh start. This means detaching ourselves from the infant who has been born, cutting ourselves free before the ties that have already begun to bind us to our child have become irresistible. Instead of going forward and putting all our effort into making the best of the situation, we can still say no, and start again from the beginning.

Edited by markdohle

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Abortion clinics are a business, so people who work for them, well many of them, may become callous and unfeeling. Nothing stays the same, once a step is taken, then it moves forward and bears fruit, either for good or evil. Abortion on demand is evil, most abortions are selective and not done because the mothers life is in danger. The unborn have rights, one day that will be known, until then, abortions on demand will be allowed and men will continue (again many) to be able to do what they want without responsibility. Sex is not a recreational sport, you would think we would have learned that by now....perhaps we never will.

Peace

mark

in my country abortion is neither illegal or evil. the so called unborn do not have rights as you suggest according to our law.

everything you have said in this post is your own interpretation and your own slant on how things should be. i would like to point out that you are a man as well, so in my opinion your attitude about a woman's body is irrelevant.

if your wife or significant other plans to abort 'your' child then you work it out between the two of you. the law, the church, the government have no business with that.

edit to add:

where i live abortion clinics are not a business. they are an extension of our health care system

Edited by JGirl
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This is not the first time this has happened and continues to happen everyday. Remains of the aborted have been found in trash cans behind the clinic. Again, it is a business that is all, though of course there could be some who care, the bottom line is making money. The ramification of abortion on demand have not yet been fully felt.

Peace

mark

where? show me where you read that this has happened

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And that`s just the ones they have found out about! It happens all over the world, especially in poorer countries.

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in my country abortion is neither illegal or evil. the so called unborn do not have rights as you suggest according to our law.

everything you have said in this post is your own interpretation and your own slant on how things should be. i would like to point out that you are a man as well, so in my opinion your attitude about a woman's body is irrelevant.

if your wife or significant other plans to abort 'your' child then you work it out between the two of you. the law, the church, the government have no business with that.

edit to add:

where i live abortion clinics are not a business. they are an extension of our health care system

I agree. It is so easy to judge women and have no clue what was going on in their lives for them to even consider abortion.

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I agree. It is so easy to judge women and have no clue what was going on in their lives for them to even consider abortion.

and in any case a woman should not have to justify to anyone why she chooses to not bring the pregnancy to term. i noticed when i googled this subject the only sites covering it are pro life sites and catholic news sites and the like.

also i found no further information on these 491 abortions that were apparently 'botched'

i seriously doubt it had anything to do with botching the surgery, yet we can never know that because that information is conveniently not available.

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and in any case a woman should not have to justify to anyone why she chooses to not bring the pregnancy to term. i noticed when i googled this subject the only sites covering it are pro life sites and catholic news sites and the like.

also i found no further information on these 491 abortions that were apparently 'botched'

i seriously doubt it had anything to do with botching the surgery, yet we can never know that because that information is conveniently not available.

Very convenient. Not surprising, though, IMO.

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...from 2000 to 2009, 491 babies have been born alive following a failed abortion procedure, and subsequently left to die. And those are only the ones that are recordedby Statistics Canada.

... These abortions are coded as P96.4 or ‘Termination of pregnancy, affecting fetus and newborn’.

<em>

</p>Your link says "Termination of pregnancy, affecting fetus and newborn", while the StatsCan definition is, "Other disorders originating in the perinatal period."]Maybe you could clarify this.

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They must have been VERY late term abortions for the baby to come out ALIVE and stable enough to survive. This in itself is a botched abortion and is very illegal, so unless this is fake it sounds like this was an illegal operation.

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This is not the first time this has happened and continues to happen everyday. Remains of the aborted have been found in trash cans behind the clinic. Again, it is a business that is all, though of course there could be some who care, the bottom line is making money. The ramification of abortion on demand have not yet been fully felt.

Peace

mark

Can't argue with that.. I have a degree in economics. Where there are incentives there will be action.... For better or for worse😢

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They must have been VERY late term abortions for the baby to come out ALIVE and stable enough to survive. This in itself is a botched abortion and is very illegal, so unless this is fake it sounds like this was an illegal operation.

After 3 months or 36 weeks, no abortions unless mother's life is in danger in Canada. So, yeah, it sounds like illegal abortions, if we can actually believe this information.

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After 3 months or 36 weeks, no abortions unless mother's life is in danger in Canada. So, yeah, it sounds like illegal abortions, if we can actually believe this information.

If it is illegal abortions, I still can't figure where StatsCan has listed them (or how they could have). The whole thing doesn't make sense.

P.S.: 3 months doesn't equal 36 weeks. Typo?

Edited by Likely Guy
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I call foul on this. If you were to look at statistics of women who have miscarriages after the 20th week and what percentage of the fetus's live you would have the same statistic. In other words a fetus cannot live outside the womb before maybe the 26th week with out major intervention and even then the death rate of those "born premature" are exceedingly high. Take into account that the number of later gestation abortions are due to finding out the fetus is irrevocably deformed/underdeveloped or has severe physical defects causing the later abortion in the first place it makes those numbers seem just about the norm. Born alive does not mean born viable enough to live from then on just born with a "heartbeat". There are clear cases where a fetus is not viable due to cranial malformations etc that mean the fetus only has a partial skull and brain. Usually when I see statistics without good notations I'm led to believe this is propaganda against abortion while not really considering that actual medical necessity for later gestational abortions.

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After 3 months or 36 weeks, no abortions unless mother's life is in danger in Canada. So, yeah, it sounds like illegal abortions, if we can actually believe this information.

or more likely these are cases where the mother's life was in question and the abortions were done knowing they would terminate outside the womb. this is why i wanted to see the details

it's all so one sided this so called article, which is really a blog from a pro life site

Edited by JGirl
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