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markdohle

[Merged] Abortion and beliefs

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I don't know for sure if this story is for real? Or fake ? All I can say is.. From what I have read in here -> http://twikle.co.uk/...tm?src=pop its very sad, but I feel it could be in the case of saving the mothers life

If however this is true, and they only aborted to save the mothers life, then the baby born at 20 weeks ( under 25 weeks ) then they have a right to save the mothers life...A baby born at 20 weeks cannot survive long after the birth

The only time a woman should have the rights to an abortion is, if she is in a life threatening situation, OR a victim of rape...But usually those ( result by rape cases ) abortions are rather early in the pregnancy

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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"A person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being.”

this statement does not make sense as it is written.

is a foetus a child but not a human?

as for the abortion issue. i have no say in what another woman does with her body. nor do any of you. you can call it what you like but it still is not for you to make that decision.

as for this report - i find it disturbing that this happened, and i wonder how this was allowed to happen.

still it is not typical of how abortions are performed. there is more to this i think.

The statement would make sense to some people. The moment where humanity begins varies depending on who you ask. I agree with you though that it should be no one's decision but the mother's.

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This is not the first time this has happened and continues to happen everyday. Remains of the aborted have been found in trash cans behind the clinic. Again, it is a business that is all, though of course there could be some who care, the bottom line is making money. The ramification of abortion on demand have not yet been fully felt.

Peace

mark

I remember when abortion was illegal. My brother worked at the county morgue at the time, he told me about all the young women he saw there who had died from botched abortions. Bottom line all health care is about the money. 20 week abortions are not the norm. Abortion is a women's health care issue like it or not. Women have the right to medical care. I would not like to see a woman suffer the fate of that Irish women who died a painful death because the doctors feared the law more than they cared about life of their patient. When you make a decision about someone else's life make good and sure you can live with it.

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and in any case a woman should not have to justify to anyone why she chooses to not bring the pregnancy to term. i noticed when i googled this subject the only sites covering it are pro life sites and catholic news sites and the like.

also i found no further information on these 491 abortions that were apparently 'botched'

i seriously doubt it had anything to do with botching the surgery, yet we can never know that because that information is conveniently not available.

Of course pro life sites will cover it, would not think planned parenthood when publish this. We all have a slant, I would not expect pro choice sites to publish this....yet it happens. I deal with women who have had abortions, many never get over it, espeicallyi when it comes around to the time when they would have been born, their birthday. It is not an easy situation for anyone, yet abuses will happen just like anywhere else and should be reported.

Peace

mark

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I remember when abortion was illegal. My brother worked at the county morgue at the time, he told me about all the young women he saw there who had died from botched abortions. Bottom line all health care is about the money. 20 week abortions are not the norm. Abortion is a women's health care issue like it or not. Women have the right to medical care. I would not like to see a woman suffer the fate of that Irish women who died a painful death because the doctors feared the law more than they cared about life of their patient. When you make a decision about someone else's life make good and sure you can live with it.

I am not for changing the law, so I agree. Women if they get abortions need to be protected. Society needs to change from the bottom up, men need to be more responsible etc. About the women, yes that was tragic, yet what about the infants (for that is what they were) when they were born alive, can you live with the fact that this is happening. Before change can happen, both sides need to look at what the other is saying. It is not a black and white issue by any means. Again, I believe our society is becoming more inhumane and this trend will continue until we reach a point when change will be possible if it is not too late.

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Many people think that opposition to abortion is a religious stance, and for many people this is true. For me it is not. I decided when I was thirteen that I was both an atheist and prolife. I became an atheist because I had no belief in a spiritual reality. I became prolife because my biology class taught a section about the development of the human embryo and fetus. I saw a human life as beginning at conception and stretching in one continuum until the death of that being. I saw that the inclusion of a child into society after birth (but not before) was nothing but a human convention.

To continue: http://www.fnsa.org/fall98/reed.html

Edited by Still Waters
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I can understand your feelings and choice. I believe in prochoice. This is not a religious choice or a government choice. The choice need to the left up the the person or persons having the abortion. I don't believe abortions should be used as birth control. When there is rape or incest yes an abortion is warrented.

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Of course pro life sites will cover it, would not think planned parenthood when publish this. We all have a slant, I would not expect pro choice sites to publish this....yet it happens. I deal with women who have had abortions, many never get over it, espeicallyi when it comes around to the time when they would have been born, their birthday. It is not an easy situation for anyone, yet abuses will happen just like anywhere else and should be reported.

Peace

mark

i'm not challenging that pro ife and christian sites report this, i'm stating that they are the ONLY sites reporting it. pro choice sites may not but there are all sorts of news outlets that are not on one side or the other than have not reported it.

in this country something like that would have been all over the news. it has not been, and so far i do not see the details surrounding this 'news'.

i also await your links regarding the foetuses found in trash cans.

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I've been hard put on this subject and have ran a whole gamut of emotions trying to see it from every point of view...I can only end with my point of view of having been a child that was born through a woman that never wanted children and having a dad that was taught to feel and hold himself exempt from anything other than financial obligation (anything more would be un-manly of him).

My parent's generation had very and I mean VERY limited access to any methods of birth control other than the ol' "fight your urges because they're evil and you will burn in hell for it" and that was mostly pointed and geared to the females. I have three siblings, listening to them spend their lives whining and crying over not having a mother that was more..? motherly (?) for the lack of any better description which is ultimately saying "I want a woman that can make herself pretend better than the one I got" (and dad was not left out of this complaint) rather than waking up to what is and that being they can not get past their illusions that parents are the individuals that "MUST" sacrifice their own being for that of the child...How many times have I heard one the wee peeps that I gave birth to tell me it's my job to do for them only for me to inform them that their job is to grow the hell up and move far away from me and that they need to busy themselves at that job rather than stand the feck around complaining at me.. my children say of me the same I say of my mother, "she loves us all, but there is no law that says she must like us" and that being so I will not demand of her to pretend that she does...the only reason she ever tried to make herself pretend in the first place was because she loved...

I would hate to ever come to know that I had a choice in me being born or not and into which woman's body I was going to tear my way through...seeing and knowing the pain that my coming to be born has put my mother through and having no knowledge that I could have prevented doing that harm to her, I could only wish that she would have had a doctor that could have helped her to prevent it and whats more a world of peeps that would have never judged her for it...As much as my mother loved me enough to spend her time here trying to make herself be what others deemed as 'the right way to be, I love her enough that I would have gladly chose not to be at all rather than inflict such things on her...

I will say it again! If I was god all you peeps under 30 yrs would only know of one tree in the garden...be growing some major birth control fruit! and the only law is your azz will eat from it..or you can chose to burn in hell (let me not forget to through in some 'free will' choices here) :P

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I am just wondering why people are not concerned about all the children born into poverty and famine who die slow and agonizing deaths from disease and starvation.......aren't they human enough?

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If it is illegal abortions, I still can't figure where StatsCan has listed them (or how they could have). The whole thing doesn't make sense.

P.S.: 3 months doesn't equal 36 weeks. Typo?

more like brain fart. Lol, sorry

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I don't see why 20weeks is seen as a line in the sand. Babies are dependant on their mothers until at least 24months old, and cannot survive without her feeding and caring for him/her. How is an 8 months old different than 8 weeks after conception? Both cannot survive without the mother/caregiver, its just that one hasn't travelled down the birth canal.

Yes i know that an 8 week old fetus does not look the same, but its DNA is the same, its chances of life are the same.

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I don't know why someone would wait so long honestly. I'd have one done as early as possible before a nervous system and brain are formed.

Some women don't ever want children and birth control isn't 100 percent effective. I know someone who got pregnant with her husband while using two forms of birth control. It's unlikely, but it happens. And some women can't use the pill or other contraceptives that release hormones because of side effects. Personally, I'm absolutely certain that I never want children for a number of reasons (inlcuding not wanting to pass my genes on because schizophrenia runs heavily in my family) If I could get a tubal ligation I would, but I know no doctor will do this even though I'm almost 27. They only agreed to do it for my friend (who's older than me) after she popped out 3 kids. It seems like doctors are more likely to respect a man's choice of getting a vasectomy, but with women it's always 'oh you might change your mind just wait'

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. Babies are dependant on their mothers until at least 24months old

Can you explain more on what you mean by - dependant until at least 24 months? Children are dependant on their mothers for a lot longer than 2 years ..

How is an 8 months old different than 8 weeks after conception?

8 weeks after conception, the foetus is still in the developing stages.. Here is a useful link that takes you through the developing stages of the baby, throughout the pregnancy

Click here -> http://www.webmd.com...eek-weeks-31-34

There is a brave difference between 8 weeks pregnant and 8 months pregnant..Huge difference in the babys growing/ development stages

Yes i know that an 8 week old fetus does not look the same, but its DNA is the same, its chances of life are the same.

I'm afraid you are wrong on that.. If a foetus is released from the womb at just 8 weeks ( normally called a miscarriage ) it would be very impossible for it to survive.. It would have two hopes - Bob Hope and No hope !!

A baby born at 8 months has a greater ( and most higher ) chance of living.. This is fact

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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I am just wondering why people are not concerned about all the children born into poverty and famine who die slow and agonizing deaths from disease and starvation.......aren't they human enough?

With that kind of logic, none of us should have been born but aborted. No one knows what his or her life will be like. Many in third world countries live long and productive lives.

peace

mark

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While there are a number of medical risks associated with abortion and significant evidence that abortion increases the likelihood of contracting breast cancer, there is another threat that is tied to the abortion clinics themselves.

No matter what anyone believes about abortion in theory, no matter how adamantly a woman argues for abortion rights in public, most women go to great lengths to ensure that their own abortion remains a secret. Why is this so? Because abortion, unlike any other common surgical procedure, carries with it very high levels of guilt and shame. Whether this is the product of social expectation or internal conviction, the end result is the same. Women want to keep their abortion hidden and get it over with as quickly as possible. This intense desire for secrecy makes them vulnerable on two fronts.

Read more: http://www.abort73.c...tial_for_abuse/

Edited by Still Waters
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Can you explain more on what you mean by - dependant until at least 24 months? Children are dependant on their mothers for a lot longer than 2 years ..

8 weeks after conception, the foetus is still in the developing stages.. Here is a useful link that takes you through the developing stages of the baby, throughout the pregnancy

Click here -> http://www.webmd.com...eek-weeks-31-34

There is a brave difference between 8 weeks pregnant and 8 months pregnant..Huge difference in the babys growing/ development stages

I'm afraid you are wrong on that.. If a foetus is released from the womb at just 8 weeks ( normally called a miscarriage ) it would be very impossible for it to survive.. It would have two hopes - Bob Hope and No hope !!

A baby born at 8 months has a greater ( and most higher ) chance of living.. This is fact

You have taken me out of context here. I am not talking about an 8 week old fetus being removed from its mother. And the 8 month old child was born (get this) 8 months ago.

Let me pose my question differently. Why can we remove an 8 week old fetus from its mother to kill it, when we cannot remove an 8 month old child from its mother to kill it? Both are getting all their nurishment through the mother, both cannot survive without her constant attention and care. The only difference is one has passed through the birth canal and one has not.

Yes there are different physical charateristics, and people often discribe early fetus' as "a cluster of cells", but both have the exact same chance of becoming "human"

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Let me pose my question differently. Why can we remove an 8 week old fetus from its mother to kill it, when we cannot remove an 8 month old child from its mother to kill it?

To sum up what I said before - One is not a baby .. the other is..

At 8 months its an almost fully developed baby..the 8 week foetus is not.. Many will class it as murder if you kill a baby at 8 months, and the law will too, that is why they draw the line after 20 weeks in many places, it's done for a reason

EXAMPLE - If a mother is 8 months pregnant ( or a little over ) and she is faced with a critical medical situation, that can result to her own death.. What the doctors will do is, remove the baby by C-Section .. Do what they can to save BOTH mother and child.. They wouldn't be likely or able to do that with an 8 week old foetus ..

Yes there are different physical charateristics, and people often discribe early fetus' as "a cluster of cells", but both have the exact same chance of becoming "human"

Only one is human .. The eight month old baby is a human..a baby human ... The 8 week old foetus is not, it is still developing and has a long way to go .. When a woman is 8 months pregnant, her baby can survive, where the 8 week old foetus cannot.. Both are worlds apart. I explained this previously..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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With that kind of logic, none of us should have been born but aborted. No one knows what his or her life will be like. Many in third world countries live long and productive lives.

peace

mark

i think he/she is referring specifically to those who are starving and dying horrible slow deaths, not the minority you speak of.

btw, still waiting for those links re: foetuses in trash cans

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Society frowns on many things and those things we feel the need to keep secret. You don't broadcast to everyone your getting an abortion, face lift, tummy tuck, posed nude or cheating either for fear of being judged and people usually will.

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If you keep using an anti abortion site as your primary documentation, the less you should trust it's content. Abortion is a fact, there are plenty of environmental causal relationships to breast cancer I highly doubt abortion is any more a risk than other cause.

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why do you need two threads for one topic?

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most women go to great lengths to ensure that their own abortion remains a secret. Why is this so?

because quite frankly it's none of your business (or anyone else's for that matter)

there is no reason to believe that it's from guilt or shame. it bothers you a lot that women have this right obviously

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Women don't want to talk about it because it does traumatize them. Sure, they could've kept the child and given it up to adoption, but that would hurt as well. It really depends on the person, but the girls I've known won't talk about because they feel guilt over the loss of the child-even though they aborted it. It's a tragic experience. One lady I know still counts how old her child would be if she would've kept it.

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I trust women to make their own decisions about abortion, not the federal government. And I have seen little, if any, dialogue, about prevention, which would be much more productive. Here are some statistics: In 2009, adolescents under 15 years obtained .05% of all abortions, but had the highest abortion ratio, 785 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC). In 2009, 85% of all abortions were performed on unmarried women (CDC). 54% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Abortion is almost never the first choice, but sometimes, emotionally & economically, it seems to be the only viable choice. So here's the deal. Here in the US we want to reduce welfare benefits & the number of people receiving them which is almost overwhelmingly women & children, in fact, some despise welfare recipients, then we want to force them to have an unplanned/unwanted child without providing the mothers with the help they need, and we don't want to address equal pay so that these women could better afford to take care of their children, or see that they have health insurance, sheesh, the list goes on. As far as I know, Mr. Walker is the only one who has spent time & money helping care for pregnant mothers and their babies; we would be a better country all the way around if we emulated him.

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